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Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by Uehreka on Monday December 03, 2018 @06:16PM (#18594162)
I live in Baltimore and these things have been awesome. Over the summer and early fall, I used them a lot for trips that were between 3-15 blocks. They were usually less than half the price of a Lyft, were fun to drive, don't directly use fossil fuels and were usually available (in one app or the other) within a block or two of my house. I used them to meet friends for brunch, to pick up my car from getting worked on, to go to bars near my house and to go vote in November.

Now that it's gotten colder, I think my range for using them will contract to something like 2-8 blocks, but I don't think I'll cut off using them entirely. I don't notice them being "piled up" anywhere (except for at a street festival, but lots of people were picking them up too), and I don't think I've ever run into a situation where my path was actively blocked by one.

Baltimore used to have a bike share, but I've heard it's being shut down and even when it was up they had a hard time keeping bikes in all the stalls.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by 0xADEADBEE on Monday December 03, 2018 @09:32PM (#18595532)
I must be in a bit of a minority but my main objection to these would be the installation of an app to use them - I am perhaps too privacy-conscious and admit I haven't attempted the signup process but even with a throwaway email address, I'm not comfortable installing it on a device I take with me when I leave the house; I even Uber via the web interface and would probably stop using the service if they hamstrung that more than it is already. Is this something other HNers concern themselves with?
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by aantix on Monday December 03, 2018 @10:10PM (#18595773)
Isn't it exhausting to live like that?

Will convenience ever win out for you?

This is a serious question.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by baroffoos on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @12:25AM (#18596549)
Not really. Its the same as people who are vegetarian or people who ride a bike rather than take a car even when a car is so much more convenient for them or people who bring a refillable drink bottle rather than buy a disposable one. Some people are just really driven to support a cause and fight for something they know is right.

If you don't feel strongly about this then thats ok but I think we are all better off that there are people who put the effort in to make society better even if it means personal inconvenience.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by 0xADEADBEE on Monday December 03, 2018 @10:42PM (#18595995)
It's a great question! It's honestly not too bad, although every now and again I flirt with throwing in the towel on account of the fact I'm sure I'm not really making a difference to the data collection at large. I browse with Firefox, an ad-blocker CookieAutoDelete and NoScript also, which sounds horrific, but actually works well (although I'm under no illusions that combined with routing my traffic through a VPS and browser fingerprinting are not hiding me at all). Browsing on ios with Firefox Focus is needlessly laborious also, but other than that I've found it to be fine.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by kristianc on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:40AM (#18597180)
> I browse with Firefox, an ad-blocker CookieAutoDelete and NoScript also, which sounds horrific, but actually works well

I’m interested by this as every time I have tried to browse with NoScript it has indeed been completely horrific.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by 0xADEADBEE on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @05:58PM (#18613603)
It was a bit of a nightmare for the first day or two, but I was buoyed by seeing how many external tracking scripts are automatically loaded on websites that I never expected that from. It's largely seamless once you've whitelisted the things you like, but it takes a couple of days.

One recent example where I packed it in and just used Safari instead was buying a flight - I've found airline websites to be finicky at the best of times and the added layer of non-standard browsing was immediately painful. Other than that, it's been worthwhile; I recommend giving it another try!

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by reacharavindh on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @03:53AM (#18597618)
I do the same. No Uber, Facebook, Instagram, Reddit, Twitter on the phone.

If I need them, I use their web interface. If that is shitty, it makes me use them less, which is a desired outcome.

Although, I admit I read too much HN than I'd like to spend time everyday because it feels like time spent on HN is some form of learning.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by 0xADEADBEE on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @05:58PM (#18613606)
I have a similar view - there's some very smart people here!
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by CaptainZapp on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @04:03AM (#18597678)
Isn't it exhausting to live like that? Will convenience ever win out for you?

My smartphone went bonkers and now only shows half of the screen, which makes it less than smart.

I replaced it with a Nokia 8110 (the 4G model) and so far it's an intersting experience.

While it might be a smidgeon less convenient it's far less attractive to immerse yourself into your phone while, for example, using public transport. The browser is fine for very basic things and you can get basic email to run. But in terms of distraction Snake can only give you so much.

In essence I seem to gain a lot of time to observe my fellow citizens, read books or just stare out of the window and think some idle thoughts. In short: It seems I'm gaining a lot of time back by not being constantly distracted by what is essentially a slot machine with never ending possibilities.

I'm sure it helps that I don't do social media. None!

The phone provides a 4G hot spot in case I really need to connect a laptop if I must. Having dual sims it seems like quite an ideal thing to take on vacation. (It does GPS and Google Maps)

How well will this work? I don't know yet. Right now I'm really not inclined to replace it, but time will tell.

Is it exhausting?

Well, no. Quite the opposite since there's no temptation for permanent distraction.

Will convenience ever win out for you?

I really don't feel too much inconvenienced. The acid test will probably checking in for flights (which should work with the minimal browser) or comparable tasks. Not being able to hire a scooter or use an Uber (which I anyway don't since I consider it a totally despicable company and there's no way I would ever trust them with my personal -, let alone location data) is pretty much a non-issue.

So yeah, I tried to give you a serious answer.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by ams6110 on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @01:45AM (#18596929)
I find it liberating. When things are too convenient you tend to do a lot of worthless stuff. When there is a little bit of planning and difficulty involved, it helps prioritize. I don't have data on my mobile device either so I'm not sure I could even use the scooters.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by CyberDildonics on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @01:43PM (#18602338)
If something can be done through a web page, why is it being done through an app in the first place? Most of the time it is so that updates can be pushed and the app can be doing more than it really needs to do to deliver the service.

For things like this, you just need to sign up and put in a little bit of info, but now you have to install and app that may or may not be hugely bloated, require permissions you it doesn't need, push updates frequently, etc.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by Lubnah on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @05:38AM (#18598159)
It is not at all exhausting. It's not even on the level of crossword puzzles.

The only thing that gets tiresome is the realization that every company is trying to exhaust you. That the goal itself, is indeed, to wear you down.

Once you realize that's the name of the game, you fight it differently.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by quickthrower2 on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @04:26AM (#18597811)
But 10 years ago we all lived like that. Definitely 20.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by spookthesunset on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @12:06AM (#18596451)
> Isn't it exhausting to live like that?

I always wonder why these kind of folks even bother to visit sites like this at all? Isn't this a tech focused site? Why are you here if you hate advancements in technology so much?

It reminds me of all the bitter old curmudgeons on Slashdot back in the day. Every post about advancements in HDD storage or more memory had at least a few highly voted comments droning on about the dangers of bloat and why all anybody really needs is green screens. Articles on higher resolution monitors, or fancier TV's would always have a couple predictable upvoted comments wondering "why do we need all this extra resolution?"

These kinds of comments really don't add anything to a discussion. They just bring a lot of negative energy. For some reason people always seem to upvote them--probably because they sound edgy or controversial. I just roll my eyes at the old grumps and move on with my life.

The big danger is the site gets taken over by these kinds of grumpy people. Then the site starts a slow decline into irrelevance as the world passes it and all the people still using it by....

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by baroffoos on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @12:27AM (#18596564)
I like tech. I like programming. Lots of the stuff I see here is quite cool. Liking tech does not mean disregarding privacy. In fact being enthusiastic about tech is almost required to seriously improve your privacy.

A lot of the stuff here is cool open source projects and even the stuff like this thread is still worth talking about even if I wouldn't use the product myself. No point reading only posts and comments I agree with.

Also even though I would never use this product for privacy reasons, I personally benefit from other people using it when the air I breathe doesn't kill me and I don't fear for my life while crossing a road.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by aantix on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @12:18AM (#18596513)
It's a discussion of tradeoffs, and the OP was happy to give me insight into his daily thinking on the topic.

I appreciate him entertaining my questions and giving a sincere response.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by tuxxy on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:55AM (#18597259)
> old grumps

I'm 22 and privacy-conscious. I also love tech, but I really enjoy my personal privacy and knowing that I'm not being surveiled all the time. I am also a FSF supporter and try to run libre code wherever possible.

Convince me: why should I give up my privacy to use products that will inevitably treat my data irresponsibly?

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by stef25 on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @03:39AM (#18597542)
Define irresponsibly. Your plaintext passwords, ID scans and physical address getting leaked is one thing. Using your basic demographic data for advertising is something else.

An obvious solution is just to use bogus data: name, email, dob, address, burner phone.

Only thing you can't fake is your credit card but I'm sure a lot of companies do actually accept payments where the name of the card differs from the name on the account.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by Lubnah on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @04:07AM (#18597716)
Disposable gift cards can be loaded with up to $500, and cost about $5.

If you buy your cards in cash, they're about as private as the security cameras are in whichever convenience store you pay for them in.

Based on what we know about Target's shopper surveillance and behavioral identification efforts being capable of targeting pregnant women with pregnancy products, who didn't even know they were pregnant yet, themselves, even seemingly benign store locations can be pretty lacking in actual privacy.

Between electronic survellance of mobile device identifiers, blue tooth signatures, free wi-fi usage, versus brute force video analysis yeilding facial recognition results for targeted ads on flatscreen monitors as you pass by bus stops, the status of tracking in public spaces is weird, although you really can ditch credit card tracking.

The only problem is, the truly huge companies have assuredly been routing around that idea for years, by diversifying their information channels.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by stallmanite on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:09PM (#18602660)
Plenty of services reject prepaid cards though which is infuriating.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by kaybe on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @08:00AM (#18598995)
It's called cash. There's a reason not everyone wants to get rid of it.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by hueving on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:41AM (#18597189)
Advancements in user tracking are not the same thing as general technology advancements. Apps that suck up location data deserve all of the flak they get.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by PavlovsCat on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @03:30AM (#18597490)
> Why are you here if you hate advancements in technology so much?

Hating the abuse of something isn't hating that thing, and

> I just roll my eyes at the old grumps and move on with my life.

going to such lengths to smear someone indirectly and calling isn't moving on with your life. Adapting to "the world" (which is people doing things, and you're one of them) isn't either.

> when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...

-- Carl Sagan

Without the laughter of fools, there is no tao.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by Kiro on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:44AM (#18597204)
HN has already been overrun by primitivists.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by BurningFrog on Monday December 03, 2018 @10:28PM (#18595903)
Uber stores the route of your trip anyway.

So all info you withhold from them is the few meters walk from where you ordered to where you got picked up.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by 0xADEADBEE on Monday December 03, 2018 @10:46PM (#18596021)
Well of course and you make a fine point, but I don't know what the app is up to when I'm not using it. And there was also the fiasco of them tracking after rides were completed [1].

I suppose what it comes down to is that we pour huge amounts of information into our phones and by extension, companies that don't necessarily have our best interests at heart, and any steps I can take to ameliorate that without a huge trade-off of inconvenience, I am all about doing. I don't know what my data will be worth in a few years!

[1] - https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/29/16219542/uber-location-tr...

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by BurningFrog on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @11:31AM (#18600909)
OK, the "you never know factor" is hard to argue against.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by jliptzin on Monday December 03, 2018 @10:46PM (#18596017)
Probably stored indefinitely. Imagine 30 years from now, a company being able to go back and check on the current president's ride history when he was in his 20s.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by baroffoos on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @12:29AM (#18596581)
> Imagine 30 years from now, a company

Not just a company, the current state of things is every private company database will be hacked and leaked and available to the general public.

Treat all data you give to someone else as public data now and use fake info where ever possible.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by 0xADEADBEE on Monday December 03, 2018 @10:47PM (#18596028)
This is exactly what I think, but I doubt I'd have articulated it so well. Who knows where that road leads?
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by hueving on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:43AM (#18597200)
You also withhold from them all of the extra shit it collects in the background when you're done with your ride.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by andrepd on Monday December 03, 2018 @10:56PM (#18596075)
I even Uber via the web interface

Can you do this?? Thanks, I had no idea!

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by cyphar on Monday December 03, 2018 @11:20PM (#18596226)
Yes. https://m.uber.com/ For a really long time I chose to not have a smartphone so I would request an Uber using their web interface on my laptop.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by 0xADEADBEE on Monday December 03, 2018 @10:59PM (#18596099)
I haven't done it for a while, and I've only done it in New Zealand but yes! m.uber.com should get you there. The car display freezes on occasion, but they'll ring you if they're outside and you're not. Good luck, and you are so welcome!
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by caro_douglos on Monday December 03, 2018 @11:11PM (#18596165)
Not sure about uber.

Lyft has https://ride.lyft.com

Still have to verify your account through phone

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by eddieplan9 on Monday December 03, 2018 @11:19PM (#18596213)
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by mixmastamyk on Monday December 03, 2018 @09:51PM (#18595669)
If they were all on the same system I might consider it, but the are like a dozen transportation options in my town.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by guelo on Monday December 03, 2018 @09:38PM (#18595591)
> don't directly use fossil fuels

I feel like this is a bit of misleading marketing since a ton of fossil fuel is used to round them up and distribute them around town every day.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by Uehreka on Monday December 03, 2018 @11:14PM (#18596183)
Fair, it’d be worth doing some math on this. Let’s assume a scooter Travels distance T on a full battery (across multiple trips of course) and has efficiency TE based on the efficiency of the (presumably fossil fuel) power plant and that the person picking it up for Charging drives distance C Picking Up PU scooters with a fossil fuel engine that has CE efficiency. Of course, we need to assume that TE and CE are measured in miles/kg-of-carbon-emission. So, the full equation would look something like:

(TPU/C)(TE/CE) = Carbon Efficiency of using Lime/Bird

I’ll admit that I don’t know all the numbers to plug in here (being HN, maybe someone else does) but given that even dirty power plants have better fuel efficiency than ICEs and that chargers don’t need to drive super far to find a ton of scooters my money is on this being better than driving, carbon-wise.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by masonic on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @03:41AM (#18597555)
The distance the charger drives to/from the charging location and then to the vendor-determined deployment point has nothing to do with the distance the previous rider rode.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by throwawaymath on Monday December 03, 2018 @10:30PM (#18595917)
Yes, the companies have trucks which drive around the city picking up all the parked bikes each night and recharging them. So while they don’t “directly use fossil fuels”, a lot of fossil fuel is indirectly used.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by gibolt on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @12:41AM (#18596638)
A huge number of chargers (the people) ride the scooters and stack them on the one they are riding.

Even if a vehicle is used, it is nowhere near the fuel consumed by all the scooter trips combined. It collects multiple and is only after several days per scooter.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by ams6110 on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @01:41AM (#18596913)
I saw a guy riding two simultaneously, one foot on each. Didn't look very controllable to me but he seemed practiced.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by masonic on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @03:42AM (#18597559)
I saw one such charger break a pedestrian's ankle doing this on a sidewalk.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by baroffoos on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @12:21AM (#18596529)
A future solution would be having charging ports on streets and have people plug them in after a trip. The scooter/bike can then report back to the server that it was plugged in after use.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by shaklee3 on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @12:14AM (#18596498)
That doesn't seem comprable to lyft when you can't order one to show up wherever you want.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by Uehreka on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @01:14AM (#18596803)
My order of operations (if the weather is good and I’m going somewhere in that range) is to look at Bird and Lime to see if there’s a scooter within a block or two and call a Lyft if there isn’t. If there is, I save the time I’d spend waiting for a Lyft.

Given that I perceive fossil fuel savings, I feel it’s worth it to check and try to lean towards this method of transport.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by anonytrary on Monday December 03, 2018 @08:17PM (#18594947)
> Baltimore used to have a bike share, but I've heard it's being shut down and even when it was up they had a hard time keeping bikes in all the stalls.

Sorry if these are stupid questions, but isn't this a problem with Bird? I see random birds all over the place. Can someone explain why bikes can't be left around randomly like a bird can?

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by Uehreka on Monday December 03, 2018 @08:50PM (#18595174)
Not a stupid question! The bikes in the Baltimore bike share (and I think also the NYC bike share) had electric motors that would work with the rider to make peddling easier. Thus they had to be left in charging “yokes” when you were done with them.

As for why a non-powered bike couldn’t just be left around, here are a few thoughts:

- As some people have mentioned, bikes are just bigger, and take up way more sidewalk space. If Bird and Lime have gotten unpopular, a “Bird for Bikes” would probably make people livid.

- Honestly, the fact that Birds and Limes come with Anti-theft mechanisms and GPS transponders (which run on the same battery as the motor I think) makes them a bit harder to steal (and there aren’t easily removable parts or a viable black market for selling them). Even a non-powered bike would need a charge every once in a while if it relied on power for its transponder.

- I think the “we supply’em, you pay us to ride’em, we pay people to charge’em” business model is just a straight up new thing that happened to be first successfully done by a scooter startup. I imagine it would be hard for a person in a minivan to pick up tons of bikes for charging without having to remove their minivan’s seats. Again, scooters being small is a big advantage, which is probably also why bigger “sit down” vespa-style scooter startups don’t seem to be a factor right now.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by xkcd-sucks on Monday December 03, 2018 @09:37PM (#18595580)
Uhh the antitheft devices don't actually do anything, the police won't follow up on a good theft report, and passers-by don't care either. Literally all of the Chinese ebikes and escooters have standardized parts, so it's easy to sell parts or buy cheaper replacements. The lipoly cells themselves are also nice. I've personally converted birds back to stock xiaomi scooters for about $20usd per scooter (replace the "dashboard" board), which then sell for about $300. A few friends strip them for parts which is lucrative if you don't have much else going on
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by brookside on Monday December 03, 2018 @09:40PM (#18595604)
Do you not subscribe to the idea stealing=bad?
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by kough on Monday December 03, 2018 @10:44PM (#18596009)
Is it ok to steal from the rich (nation-state and ultra-wealthy investors) to help the poor (me)? If I could steal a million dollars out of YC's checkbook I would do it in a heartbeat, wouldn't you?
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by stingrae on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @01:04AM (#18596758)
I am pretty surprised to see comments like this on HN. Advocating theft and robbery is not ok.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by anonytrary on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @01:44AM (#18596923)
This thread is full of oddities. Some people here think it's OK for you leave your scooter/bike on a private business's property without consent, because the "businesses should like having a signal attracting people to their property". Like, when did consent stop being a thing, and who is anyone to tell me what I want or don't want for my own business?
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by F_r_k on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:41AM (#18597187)
Yet, reading another point of view that you don't necessarily agree on is good
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by Latteland on Monday December 03, 2018 @11:05PM (#18596135)
No, stealing is wrong. No one is going to kill you, right? If you are going to die unless you do it, that might be different, at least arguable. Just cause you want to steal someone else's stuff and sell it for money - that's clearly wrong.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by bunfunton on Monday December 03, 2018 @09:46PM (#18595636)
Where can I find details on how this is accomplished? I'm curious how the GPS/Brake is wired in, and what you would replace the front panel with. For science.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by s0rce on Monday December 03, 2018 @09:01PM (#18595278)
Dockless bike share is a thing. They had them all over the East SF bay area for a while but a contract with the existing docked bikes got rid of them in most of the areas. I think they still have them in SF. As you guessed, many people hate them but honestly, parked cars take 100x the space, just allocate some parking spaces to bikes, problem solved.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by anonytrary on Monday December 03, 2018 @09:27PM (#18595486)
I suggested elsewhere in the thread, it'd be neat if they included a fourth class in the model: hub owners, in addition to the existing classes of supplier (Bird), riders (customers) and the chargers. The hub owners would register their places (private residence, business, campus, city area, etc.) as bird hubs, and people would only be allowed to ride birds between hubs. This would solve the "trash/get-off-my-lawn" problem.

The hub idea isn't feasible unless tons of people are already riding birds and creating a mess everywhere, because people probably wouldn't sign up as hub owners unless the demand was already deemed high. They are probably just ramping up usage right now until people start complaining, at which point Bird will be big enough to start issuing out hubs.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by lazyasciiart on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @01:09AM (#18596784)
You know bike shares with docks is a super common existing model, and dockless bike share is specifically built as an improvement to that?
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by lozenge on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @05:06AM (#18598024)
There are services that will credit your account if you leave the bike in a designated dock area, but you can still leave it in other areas.

This improves on docks in that the "dock" can just be a geofence with a few lines painted on the ground, whereas traditional docks are very sturdy and hence expensive.

This improves on dockless in that it's a more reliable place to pick up bikes, and still gives you the freedom of leaving your bike in other places.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by anonytrary on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:14AM (#18597060)
I would imagine it would be a lot easier for civilians to host scooter waypoints at their residence. Bike docks seem like more effort, I can't seem them being a popular option for homes. At scale, the idea is that half of the houses in a neighborhood would host hubs for scooters. At high hub densities, the distinction between docked and dockless becomes negligible, however the hub solution has the added benefit of people not leaving vehicles at random locations.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by lazyasciiart on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @03:39AM (#18597545)
I don't understand why you think anyone would do this, but I am also not sure that it would be any more legal to run a scooter rental hub at most homes than it is to put a pile of scooters on the sidewalk.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by anonytrary on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @05:04AM (#18598015)
Sorry, why do you think it's a rental hub? It's not a rental hub, you're simply giving Bird riders consent to use your property to drop their scooters off (as opposed to them dropping their scooters off on a random person's property, which bypasses consent and is far worse). All of the rental happens between Bird and the rider, you're just giving people permission to leave scooters on your lawn. It's an opt-in rather than opt-out system, which is how it should be.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by lazyasciiart on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:07PM (#18602637)
It is a hub for people to collect rental bikes. You are giving people permission to use your private property only if they have a specific commercial relationship with a business that you also have a specific commercial relationship to, which has a lot of differences to residential use. I'm not an expert, but I'd be pretty stunned if e.g a standard home insurance policy was willing to cover you under those circumstances.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by eli on Monday December 03, 2018 @09:27PM (#18595493)
Shameless plug: we've got a map of dockless scooters & bikes available in cities across the US over at https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/news/mapping-the-impact-of-d...
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by s0rce on Monday December 03, 2018 @10:44PM (#18596011)
Neat, although I was optimistically hoping your map aggregated all the actual GPS positions of all the different brands of dockless bikes and scooters onto one map. Since all the bikes (or scooters) are effectively equivalent it would seem useful for the customer to have an aggregated map app (less so for bird/lime/whatever).

Also, I wasn't aware South Lake Tahoe has scooters!

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by anonytrary on Monday December 03, 2018 @09:20PM (#18595445)
Thanks, this a great answer, and it makes sense now. The size matters because it enables the three-pronged business model: Suppliers-Riders-Chargers, and it would be infeasible to do such a thing with bulky bikes.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by baroffoos on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @12:31AM (#18596589)
I have heard the anti theft devices have gone off while people try and pick them up and move them out of the way from blocking the path
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by hamandcheese on Monday December 03, 2018 @08:26PM (#18595019)
Well, a scooter is much smaller than a bike therefore less of a nuisance (though the last bit depends on who you ask/how much of a NIMBY you are).

Also there are dockless bikes, see Jump in SF.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by anonytrary on Monday December 03, 2018 @08:33PM (#18595061)
I've seen birds left around private property around campuses (e.g. businesses). Why would a business complain about a bike leaning against their wall but not a bird? They are both foreign objects leaning up against their wall. Is size really important here?
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by rcpt on Monday December 03, 2018 @09:22PM (#18595457)
Shouldn't a business like having a signal attracting someone to their store?
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by anonytrary on Monday December 03, 2018 @09:31PM (#18595518)
I can't tell if this is sarcasm. You don't get to decide what goes on someone else's property, it's simply not your property.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by anonytrary on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @05:16PM (#18604087)
Honestly, the downvotes here surprise me a lot. I always thought the HN community was in support of private property laws.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by masonic on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @03:48AM (#18597592)
... until someone trips over a scooter left on your property, leaving you liable.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by taneq on Monday December 03, 2018 @08:25PM (#18595007)
Bikes are a lot bigger, for starters?
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by walshemj on Monday December 03, 2018 @08:11PM (#18594918)
How far is a block on average for us non USA types?
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by EnderWT on Monday December 03, 2018 @08:28PM (#18595031)
However, as reference points for US cities, the standard square blocks of Portland, Houston, and Sacramento are 264 by 264 feet (80 m × 80 m), 330 by 330 feet (100 m × 100 m), and 410 by 410 feet (120 m × 120 m) respectively (to the street center line). Oblong blocks range considerably in width and length. The standard block in Manhattan is about 264 by 900 feet (80 m × 274 m); and in some U.S. cities standard blocks are as wide as 660 feet (200 m).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_block

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by Uehreka on Monday December 03, 2018 @08:38PM (#18595094)
I’ll admit it’s a bad unit of measurement given that Baltimore has weirdly shaped and non-standardized blocks. Looking at my Lime history, my rides seem to fall in the 0.5-2.5 mile range (0.8-4 km)
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by antcas on Monday December 03, 2018 @08:37PM (#18595087)
It's different in every city, but in Baltimore they're probably in between the size of Portland, OR city blocks and New York City, NY city blocks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lisZBL3_aW8
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by pfisch on Monday December 03, 2018 @07:05PM (#18594511)
"don't directly use fossil fuels"

Looks like Maryland uses a significant amount of coal to power their grid, so is this even a good thing?

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by Relys on Monday December 03, 2018 @07:13PM (#18594575)
Yes, because in the long term electric vehicles consolidate fossil fuel emissions to a single large point (coal in this case) which can be eventually replaced with a clean energy source (i.e. solar, wind, hydro, nuclear, etc.).
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by baroffoos on Monday December 03, 2018 @07:29PM (#18594663)
Also coal powerplants run much more efficiently than a car engine.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by christophclarke on Monday December 03, 2018 @08:20PM (#18594968)
Internal combustion engines operate at about 25% efficiency (per this paper, page 54)

https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/5764...

Coal power plants operate in the range of 34% efficiency

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=107&t=3

https://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/html/epa_08_02.html

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by Rebelgecko on Monday December 03, 2018 @08:35PM (#18595081)
I wonder how much of that gets offset by transmission loss and the scooter's charging/discharging inefficiencies?

Not that that would be a reason not to use scooters in and off itself, since they're be posed to take advantage of grids that will hopefully become more and more renewable over time

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by baroffoos on Monday December 03, 2018 @08:35PM (#18595076)
Also they tend to be run very far away so you aren't getting a blast of pollution to the face every time you go outside
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by adtac on Monday December 03, 2018 @08:11PM (#18594916)
Is there a statistical report on this? I'm not contesting your claim, I'm just curious to see _how_ much more efficient.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by jeffwass on Monday December 03, 2018 @07:25PM (#18594646)
Additionally, the emissions of that consolidated power plant can be better filtered (eg particulates) than the corresponding thousands of disparate engines.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by solarkraft on Monday December 03, 2018 @07:49PM (#18594791)
It's also not directly in the city.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by knicholes on Monday December 03, 2018 @08:00PM (#18594855)
This is a big one. I live in Lehi, UT, in a place we call "Utah Valley." It's a bowl surrounded by mountains. When there's an inversion or when there's no storm to blow out the pollution, it sometimes reaches the top of the "worst air quality regions" scale. Moving the pollution to an area outside the bowl is a huge deal for me.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by beerlord on Monday December 03, 2018 @11:36PM (#18596308)
Plus transporting about 80kg of human, scooter and baggage is much less weight than human, car and baggage.

It would be interesting to calculate the MPG of these, including the overnight recharging and repositioning done inside a van.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by ams6110 on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:08AM (#18597037)
What is the injury rate, compared to cars?
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by MBlume on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @03:48PM (#18603465)
Scooters cause far fewer injuries than cars do
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by pfisch on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @01:35AM (#18606131)
Per capita? I’m not so sure about that. Especially in San Francisco.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by wilg on Monday December 03, 2018 @07:28PM (#18594658)
In computer science, we call this an "interface". Users can use energy without having to know it is generated, allowing the backend to be upgraded to a more efficient power source without users doing anything.

Also, the argument you're making here is called "the long tailpipe" and has been debunked – it's still a win even if the grid has dirty energy because of efficiency gains.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by jaggederest on Monday December 03, 2018 @08:17PM (#18594948)
Scooters get somewhere in the thousand-miles-per-gallon-equivalent efficiency.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by MBlume on Monday December 03, 2018 @07:08PM (#18594535)
It doesn't matter what's powering them, the power requirements are so much smaller than those for moving a 2-3 ton automobile that you still come out way ahead
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by minitoar on Monday December 03, 2018 @07:11PM (#18594554)
Yes, burning coal to generate electricity to power an electric vehicle is better than using an ICE to power that vehicle directly. Not sure about hybrid vehicles.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by paulddraper on Monday December 03, 2018 @07:26PM (#18594649)
Even so, this is still a win.

1. Scooters use far less energy than larger vehicles.

2. Generating energy from fossil fuels can be done more efficiently at a power plant than in a small engine.

3. When power generation is centralized, it is easier to substitute it for better, more efficient forms in the future.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by sonofaplum on Monday December 03, 2018 @07:33PM (#18594694)
does this calculus still work if each scooter only lasts 3 months, as is stated in the article?
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by lingzb on Monday December 03, 2018 @07:39PM (#18594730)
That is a legit concern. Hopefully, they engineer these scooters to be more durable over time. Also, hopefully user etiquette improves over time as well so people abuse these scooters less, resulting in far longer life spans.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by ams6110 on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:06AM (#18597029)
I think if anything the etiquette will get worse. I've already heard of people throwing bunches of them in dumpsters, then when the dumpster is picked up and compacted the batteries catch fire setting the entire load of garbage on fire.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by paulddraper on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @01:25PM (#18602141)
Maybe. Depends on the usage and alternatives.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by randyrand on Monday December 03, 2018 @07:26PM (#18594652)
My scooter goes 35 miles on 12 cents of electricity.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by lostcolony on Monday December 03, 2018 @07:10PM (#18594551)
Easier to replace the energy powering the grid than to, say, power a vehicle directly with non-fossil fuel sources. It may still be using fossil fuels due to what is powering the grid, but that can be changed out over time; when using a gasoline powered car, you can't, until you replace the car.

It's why electric cars are viewed as being friendly; the grid they're plugged into may still be fossil fuels, but that can change at any time. A gasoline powered car won't change its reliance on fossil fuels until you replace it.

Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by r1nkgrl on Monday December 03, 2018 @07:48PM (#18594776)
Why is this post downvoted? They asked a relevant question which generated discussion.
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by F_r_k on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:43AM (#18597201)
Because their question is old, was refuted a thousand times, and was used by pro ICE vehicles to spread misinformation
Re:Lime and Bird are growing rapidly by pfisch on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @01:38AM (#18606144)
I mean how could it be that old? These scooters are a new thing that are trashed and replaced every 3 months.