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Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by mcphage on Monday November 12, 2018 @02:12PM (#18434820)
Even if YouTube could afford to do this, nobody else could, which would lock us into an EU-sanctioned YouTube monopoly...
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by jerf on Monday November 12, 2018 @03:11PM (#18435297)
Market leaders are generally in favor of regulation, for that exact reason. Sometimes they'll play the protest game in public, but privately they are happy to see regulation.

If YouTube is actually lobbying against this both in public and in private, then I would personally consider that extremely strong evidence this is really bad. However, I have no inside info on their private position.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by TulliusCicero on Monday November 12, 2018 @03:22PM (#18435386)
Well, they can be, but what if the regulations substantially shrink the market as a whole? May be more profitable to have 30% of a large market than 90% of a small one.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by alex_c on Monday November 12, 2018 @03:25PM (#18435406)
A lot of tech industries seem to be winner-take-all, so aiming for 30% might not be a sustainable plan in many cases.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by bduerst on Monday November 12, 2018 @06:15PM (#18436890)
Not really. Vimeo shows that you can corner niche markets successfully.

Profitability and growth aren't dependent on market dominance, even in tech.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by trjordan on Monday November 12, 2018 @09:08PM (#18437850)
YouTube Vimeo is more like 1% / 99%. By almost anybody's definition, that's winner take all.

Vimeo aims for $100mil this year: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iac-interactive-vimeo/iac...

YouTube Could be a $15 billion business this year: https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/02/18/youtube-could-be-a...

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by bduerst on Monday November 12, 2018 @09:19PM (#18437900)
Again, success isn't measured by marketshare, but profitability and growth. Vimeo has 15% of the embedded market by domain, and has managed to be profitable.

Even in your article it talks about how Youtube isn't exactly profitable, and is dragging down Google's average CPC for the business.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by mcv on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @08:05AM (#18440614)
A massive difference indeed, but by any other standard, $100 million is not bad at all.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by AJ007 on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @08:31AM (#18440765)
This isn't a good comparison. Netflix, Twitch, Snapchat, Facebook/Instagram are.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by AJ007 on Monday November 12, 2018 @06:11PM (#18436862)
Well at least that’s what companies that are losing lots of money like to tell their investors. I’ve heard it many times and can’t think of any definite examples.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by castlecrasher2 on Monday November 12, 2018 @03:40PM (#18435553)
If YouTube can afford it but their competitors go out of business in the EU how would the market shrink? Regulations tend to shrink only the providers, not the consumers.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by TulliusCicero on Monday November 12, 2018 @03:54PM (#18435689)
Youtube isn't really providing a necessity, it's providing an entertainment option. Consumers have lots of those. If it becomes very onerous or expensive to provide their content, then they (and other providers) may have to produce less of it, which would shrink the market.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by freeone3000 on Monday November 12, 2018 @06:33PM (#18436974)
Youtube doesn't create video content. Youtube is a video content reseller - and if it can't afford to buy people's video content, it's unlikely anyone else can. You're shrinking the size of the video provider market!
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by DoctorOetker on Monday November 12, 2018 @10:50PM (#18438422)
perhaps it is the common goal? less societal criticism/feedback, more top down determination of media?
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by thatguy0900 on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @01:13PM (#18443223)
I think most political commentators on YouTube that do it for money use patreon more than YouTube ads, many political subjects are demonetized automatically now. YouTube doesn't want to buy their content much regardless of if its able.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by CamperBob2 on Monday November 12, 2018 @09:04PM (#18437830)
Youtube isn't really providing a necessity, it's providing an entertainment option.

I think you'd be surprised at the reach of educational resources like Khan Academy and MIT's Open Courseware. These things aren't 'necessities' only if you don't consider it important to educate yourself.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by TulliusCicero on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @03:15AM (#18439481)
I'm aware, but entertainment is clearly where the overwhelming majority of YouTube watch hours come from. It's the same situation as with TV: educational TV exists, sure, but still nobody has a problem lumping TV watching under the "entertainment" category.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by sarcasmOrTears on Monday November 12, 2018 @09:22PM (#18437910)
But there are public universities and many programs in Europe, curated by experts that never get anything wrong, so why would we need some solly internet videos, right?
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by chimeracoder on Monday November 12, 2018 @03:48PM (#18435621)
> If YouTube can afford it but their competitors go out of business in the EU how would the market shrink?

"The market" is a statement about demand, not supply. The market can still shrink if the legislation goes through, because the legislation can have secondary effects that cause people to be less interested in consuming content on a tube-style platform.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by AnthonyMouse on Monday November 12, 2018 @03:46PM (#18435601)
> May be more profitable to have 30% of a large market than 90% of a small one.

Or in this case, 80% of a large market more than 100% of a small one.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by mcphage on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @12:01PM (#18442536)
> If YouTube is actually lobbying against this both in public and in private, then I would personally consider that extremely strong evidence this is really bad. However, I have no inside info on their private position.

If the proposed law actually is too expensive for them, I could see them attempting to weaken it to a sweet spot where it's affordable for them, but expensive enough to still keep others out of the market.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by Raphmedia on Monday November 12, 2018 @04:08PM (#18435837)
Or nobody online is ever able to do this, online video streaming dies and TV keeps on living on artificial life support.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by eli on Monday November 12, 2018 @03:38PM (#18435528)
I think you could make a pretty strong case that Google AdWords are even further entrenched and harder to compete with thanks to GDPR.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by manigandham on Monday November 12, 2018 @04:04PM (#18435812)
That's definitely the case, and the entire adtech community knows it. GDPR is another example of lawmakers having no insight or cooperation with the industry they're regulating and creating unintended consequences.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by downandout on Monday November 12, 2018 @09:26PM (#18437932)
I wouldn’t say that the consequences were unintended. Lawmakers aren’t that dumb. More likely, they engineered the legislation specifically to consolidate market power and revenue in the hands of a small group of entities. They did this both because a small group is more easily controlled, and because this creates incredibly deep pockets from which they can suck out massive, headline grabbing fines. These fines serve to enrich the European governments that assess them, and help the politicians behind GDPR appear to be champions of the people who are taking money from evil capitalist American corporations.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by manigandham on Monday November 12, 2018 @09:49PM (#18438060)
What are these companies going to be fined for when they are following the very laws that now protect them via user-given consent and further establishing their monopolies?

If anything, these companies probably welcomed these regulations and now have more power over politicians who have used up much political capital in getting this done. It's unlikely that any corrective actions will be taken anytime soon.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by downandout on Monday November 12, 2018 @11:41PM (#18438646)
What are these companies going to be fined for when they are following the very laws that now protect them via user-given consent and further establishing their monopolies?

Oh, they'll find things. There are already active formal investigations by GDPR authorities in various countries against Twitter, Facebook, and Google. The companies do like GDPR, as the fines will be nothing more than a small tax on their massive revenue. It's a win for both the companies and the politicians: the companies get a monopoly in exchange for a small tax in the form of fines, revenue hungry EU nations get multi-billion dollar windfalls, and EU politicians get to look like defenders of the people who will be tough on US companies. Everybody wins, except for would-be competitors and the consumers that don't get any choices about the services they use.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by int0x80 on Monday November 12, 2018 @04:32PM (#18436064)
I don't fully get your statement. Why are AdWords harder to compete with due to GDPR? Care to expand please? Thanks.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by manigandham on Monday November 12, 2018 @04:58PM (#18436302)
Walled gardens like Google and Facebook have more personal data than any other independent companies. Because of the services they offer, they also have more direct relationships to users and are more likely to get consent from all of them for their ads.

Meanwhile, all other marketing companies are further blocked from interacting with users because of the lack of consent and direct relationships. This makes the existing monopolies even stronger, and makes it much harder for newer companies to even attempt to compete.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by obmelvin on Monday November 12, 2018 @04:44PM (#18436161)
Generally regulation like GDPR require a fair amount of engineering to comply with, so it is easier for larger companies to comply.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by nsp on Monday November 12, 2018 @06:09PM (#18436856)
While this is true, and generally true for all regulations (they tend to help the existing players as it creates a moat for new entrants), GDPR entrenches FB/Google further because a lot of the law focuses on sharing data with third parties. Google and FB already have their scripts and tracking tags loaded on a plurality of sites you visit, but since they're only sharing it with themselves, it does not impact them as much as it impacts smaller players who would have to rely on data brokers and third parties to approach similar coverage and data.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by chii on Monday November 12, 2018 @04:50PM (#18436218)
If your service already doesn't do much in terms of using excessive private data outside of providing the service, GDPR compliance is not as onerous to implement.

But of course, most adtech services do make use of a multitude of private data for profit, and that's why they are having a hard time.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by nsp on Monday November 12, 2018 @06:14PM (#18436875)
Ugh, I feel like this is a common and overly simplistic take. While it's definitely true that GDPR is harder to comply with if you're doing a ton of evil shit or selling user data, it can definitely be quite onerous to comply with even if you're not.

The company I work for (Teachable) is a specialized site builder for course content. We make all of our revenue from people either paying us directly for a plan, or transaction fees on people buying from our customers, no ads or data selling. Nevertheless, complying with GDPR still took well over a month of some of our best engineers time. Even if you don't sell data, the odds you had a plan prior to GPDR for how to handle right to be forgotten - how do you delete PII (which is defined broadly, including ip addresses) from db backups without ruining their integrity? If you use something with an immutable log, like Kafka, how do you remove the data there? Etc, etc

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by twblalock on Monday November 12, 2018 @07:05PM (#18437154)
Plus, even if you do all of those things properly, you will still need to field GDPR data requests, and when you tell users that you don't have any data, they might not believe you. You also might be falsely accused of violating the GDPR, and just saying "no we aren't violating the GDPR" without relying on legal advice is not a good approach if you care about the future of the company.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by x0x0 on Monday November 12, 2018 @04:48PM (#18436190)
There's lots of reasons.

1 - google is the only company (bing to a much much lesser extent) with access to primary search data. If you believe that the original pagerank algorithm is too easy to fool and that it has been massively deprioritized in favor of gathering intent data created by user actions on google, this makes them a natural monopoly. Any other attempt to gather the data to make intent targeting work will be hindered by the lack of consumer touch points.

2 - see consumer touch points above -- very few companies have them. Eg the new eprivacy law (depending on which draft -- there are conflicts between Council / Commission / Parliament), will be a virtual monopoly guarantee for FB / Google / yahoo. One of the features is that company 1 can't ask for consent on behalf of company 2, so, again, only companies with an end-user touch point can get legitimate consent. Thus all 3rd party adtech dies. This seems in direct conflict with pro-competition rules in the EU.

3 - Adsense also becomes much harder to compete against. Google does intent extraction -- buttressed by the data from search -- better than anyone else. You can, of course, attempt to compete algorithmically, but you lack the data.

4 - GA allows to extract behavior post click from within the site. No one else has this. You don't even really need personal data for this to be amazingly useful; merely aggregate is very powerful.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by pbhjpbhj on Monday November 12, 2018 @08:07PM (#18437516)
What are they supposed to be affording that's actually required in the Directive, like explicitly. Does it say "content must be scanned" or is it more "carriers must ensure content is licensed". If it's the later what's to stop them just adding a "is this licensed" tick box [aka check-box] to the upload form; which IIRC YouTube already have?

They, YouTube, keep mentioning science videos and such but I can't work out what they mean, why would that be any more blocked than cat videos, or videos of people falling over, or whatever else YouTube is hosting -- is quality content somehow more at risk or is that just YouTube's attempt to spin/market their opposition?

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by kllrnohj on Monday November 12, 2018 @08:14PM (#18437546)
The issue is that YouTube, or any other video host, becomes liable for copyright violations of their users. They lose the safe harbor of just being a middle man and must actively prevent unlicensed redistributions.

This means you not only need a ContentID system in the first place, you also need to be ready to handle the financial & legal consequences of inevitably not being perfect.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by pbhjpbhj on Monday November 12, 2018 @08:34PM (#18437653)
Ah OK, it was written as if it was a primarily technological cost to perform the "filtering" that was prohibitive.

They mean then they can't afford the system if their anticipated penalties are imposed && if they fail to catch unlicensed works && are subsequently sued successfully for large amounts && can't recover those costs from the uploader.

How many microseconds would it be after such a regulation passed that media mega corps would pull the trigger and kill the goose-that-laid-the-golden-eggs.

>you not only need a ContentID system //

How does the Directive specify that, I'm afraid I haven't read it yet.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by bskap on Monday November 12, 2018 @09:28PM (#18437939)
> In the absence of the authorisation referred to in the second subparagraph of paragraph 1, Member States shall provide that an online content sharing service provider shall not be liable for acts of communication to the public or making available to the public within the meaning of this Article when:

> (a) it demonstrates that it has made best efforts to prevent the availability of specific works or other subject matter by implementing effective and proportionate measures, in accordance with paragraph 5, to prevent the availability on its services of the specific works or other subject matter identified by rightholders and for which the rightholders have provided the service with relevant and necessary information for the application of these measures;

So basically if the rightsholders can convince the courts that they could have done more to proactively prevent copyright infringement, they're liable.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by tannhaeuser on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @02:21AM (#18439266)
A monopoly is what we have right now.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by dools on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @05:07AM (#18439907)
No, any regulated financial impact occurs across the board and is not anti-competitive. Regulation is good, lobbying is bad, libertarianism will destroy us all.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by tkcins on Monday November 12, 2018 @03:13PM (#18435311)
Video hosting sites lose money, so it's not like a contender will ever appear, unless the EU pours a ton of money into it, and not even then (just imagine how many EU funds Dailymotion has probably taken)
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by naravara on Monday November 12, 2018 @03:38PM (#18435527)
>Video hosting sites lose money, so it's not like a contender will ever appear,

Only if you assume YouTube's business model is the only feasible one. You could have a video hosting service that operates like a traditional web-host, letting you pay a standard rate or fee to host and list your content rather than relying on ad revenue and algorithmic curation.

Twitch has an ad driven model where the content creators get paid based on subscription counts rather than data harvesting. (Though I wouldn't be surprised if there was a big data harvesting component as well).

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by nathanyz on Monday November 12, 2018 @05:51PM (#18436739)
Exactly, video hosting can be a viable business. Full disclosure, I am co-founder of Swarmify where this is our business. We provide paid video hosting at affordable prices very similarly to paid web hosting.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by martin-adams on Monday November 12, 2018 @06:09PM (#18436855)
I really like what you have to offer. I'm impressed that you offer unlimited video/bandwidth for a reasonable price.

Just a note though, the video example on the homepage comparing YouTube with SmartVideo (SpaceX launch). I can see compression artifacts on the Smart Video. If I'm honest, that really put me off which obviously isn't your intention.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by nathanyz on Monday November 12, 2018 @06:19PM (#18436910)
Fair point on that video. We recently changed some internal settings and it looks like that is a good example where we may need to better tune. I appreciate the feedback as it helps us see things we would have missed
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by Zyst on Monday November 12, 2018 @09:20PM (#18437906)
In fairness, streamers in Twitch hear music on stream, which is frequently unlicensed.

So wouldn't Twitch be liable for that content under this proposed copyright thing?

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by inetknght on Monday November 12, 2018 @11:15PM (#18438544)
I think many cases of what you hear on Twitch falls squarely under fair use.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by sobani on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @05:38AM (#18440018)
Fair Use is an American concept. Even so, YouTube already routinely mutes videos that contain background music.

With the proposed law, the right holders can sue Twitch for hosting that video, unless Twitch ensured they have permission from said right holders to host that video.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by Arnt on Monday November 12, 2018 @03:21PM (#18435378)
How do you know that Youtube loses money?

(Curious. Really.)

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by pickdenis on Monday November 12, 2018 @03:30PM (#18435445)
They don't say so but people have calculated estimates and it seems there's hardly any way youtube could be _making_ money. Just google it, there's tons of articles with interesting speculations.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by ArchTypical on Monday November 12, 2018 @04:03PM (#18435799)
The advertising budgets spent on DFP (now the overwhelming majority of budgets) makes it obvious. Youtube makes money. It prints money by information trading on top of that. Subscriptions on top of that. Google covers costs. Maybe not all that money comes back to Youtube as a department, but published revenue numbers are a game for an organization of that size.

A guaranteed adserv on every CDN delivery (and again over a certain number of minutes) is more than the content and serve cost. CPMs for video are net 3$, at least. I don't know who's doing the math, but a link would be interesting with someone demonstrating how they are upside down.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by londons_explore on Monday November 12, 2018 @06:45PM (#18437040)
Youtubes infrastructure costs are massive - well into the $1B+ per year category.

Netflix might serve more gigabytes to users, but netflix's content library is tiny in comparison, so edge caches have a near 100% hit rate keeping infrastructure costs a fraction of youtube's costs.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by saagarjha on Monday November 12, 2018 @07:53PM (#18437440)
If YouTube has edge caches, which I would be very surprised if they didn't, I'd think their edge cache hit rate would still be pretty high. Not 100%, obviously, but still over 50%–most people watch the same set of popular videos, with a very long tail of unpopular ones that are occasionally watched.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by selectodude on Monday November 12, 2018 @09:42PM (#18438001)
I wouldn’t be surprised if Netflix’s entire library was under 100 terabytes. You could have 100 percent of the content served from edge caches with that.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by sbr464 on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @12:26AM (#18438809)
I haven't tried to estimate the size, but I think one thing that may enlarge it is all of the extra copies of content for various resolutions, different bit rates to support bandwidth issues, and optimized versions for the different mobile devices & apps. That's a lot of different files for 1 piece of content.

Edit--Found this quote from an article[0] written in 2013, so I'm sure it's much larger now. Also, the Open Connect Appliances[1] have about 240TB capacity each, but they just tail the current popular content.

The master Neflix catalog takes up about 3.14 petabytes of cloud storage space, which is converted and compressed down to about 2.75 petabytes, consisting of 100 different versions suitable for watching on more than 1000 different devices.

[0] https://gizmodo.com/how-netflix-makes-3-14-petabytes-of-vide...

[1] https://openconnect.netflix.com/en/hardware/

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by menzoic on Monday November 12, 2018 @05:11PM (#18436425)
Not to mention they own their infrastructure.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by amelius on Monday November 12, 2018 @06:35PM (#18436985)
By the way, I suspect this means that Google is undercutting the competition:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predatory_pricing

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by ChuckMcM on Monday November 12, 2018 @06:41PM (#18437021)
I'm wondering if this is overblown, in that while it is clear that rights clearance is an issue the technical solution is essentially moderating all posts. And while that probably breaks the current YouTube business model, as I understand it from Alphabet's quarterly statements YouTube isn't even breaking even today.

I get that it would massively reduce the 'new content stream' but for their commercial clients things wouldn't change all that much. It would also eliminate unlawful video completely since everything would be pre-screened.

Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by missjellyfish on Monday November 12, 2018 @07:00PM (#18437127)
That reminds me of Orwell.
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by pbhjpbhj on Monday November 12, 2018 @08:09PM (#18437525)
How so? That content is screened for copyright infringement?
Re:YouTube CEO calls EU’s proposed copyright regulation fina... by surak on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @02:24AM (#18439281)
That IPR is an interesting blockchain/DLT use case is well known, what is perhaps not that well known is that Google does not like permissionless blockchain solutions as it would disrupt their conceptually centralized platform model. A few years ago there was a start-up planning such a solution for handling IPR related to music, but the copyrights holders or rather their national governance agencies did not want to enlist their IPR through this system, possibly because a transparent automatic system would have replaced these governing bodies and their armies of lawyers. Hopefully the @European Commission will fund a standardization effort regarding IPR and a permissionless blockchain solution to solve the issue described in the article. The worst case scenario is that Google pushes its own ContentID solution on everyone and charges a percentage to perform the billing. This is a much larger issue than what is presented by the CEO.