"Routinely sleeping less than six or seven hours a night demolishes your immune system, more than doubling your risk of cancer. Insufficient sleep is a key lifestyle factor determining whether or not you will develop Alzheimer’s disease. Inadequate sleep—even moderate reductions for just one week—disrupts blood sugar levels so profoundly that you would be classified as pre-diabetic. Short sleeping increases the likelihood of your coronary arteries becoming blocked and brittle, setting you on a path toward cardiovascular disease, stroke, and congestive heart failure. Fitting Charlotte Brontë’s prophetic wisdom that “a ruffled mind makes a restless pillow,” sleep disruption further contributes to all major psychiatric conditions, including depression, anxiety, and suicidality."

The book isn't so much about "why we sleep" but rather "why you should sleep more" – 350 pages of Walker telling you about study after study after study after study comparing well-slept to underslept people, and all of the afflictions the latter suffer from, often without even noticing it (and the consequences for industry and society).

While I found his contrived writing style annoying at times, the content is the kind of eye-opening that makes you want to buy a dozen copies just to give to your family and friends.

I think sleep deprivation can become addictive. Some people don't seem to get, or gets used to, the despair and come to enjoy the single minded numbness to the point where it is actually uncomfortable for them to sleep well and come out of 'survival mode'.

You can even kind-of emergency manage depression with timed sleep deprivation if there are huge reasons (e.g. pregnancy) you should be off your meds.

(In no way am I recommending this though)

But then, the elevated mood begets more sleep deprivation and soon you're euphoric, reckless and finally manic as hell.

In a way, bipolar mania is like being addicted to yourself.

That said, I think it is a very important book, and now I’ve hopefully resolved my sleep issue (with thanks to some of the comments on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16671944 - primarily the advice about having a regular “sleep schedule”) I look forward to finishing it!

Don't be disingenuous.

Sounds like shaming to me.

In any case, I guess what I'm saying is you seem to have researched the topic and your spending an extra minute or two giving a few more details will probably save a bunch of other folks ten times that, in aggregate.

One thing I've really changed my thinking on in the past few years is my attitude towards work situations demanding late nights. I wouldn't smoke a cigarette for work, so why was I making excuses for late nights?

I've got an Ouraring, and track my sleep constantly -- but still have trouble getting a consistent 8.5 hours. But I'm getting better.

What habits did you change?

^ See above for relaxation techniques. It's just a ripoff from yoga.

• Read book before bed, not computer/phone.

• Walk

• Keep room COMPLETELY dark and quiet

• Don't eat heavy a few hours before bed

• Walk, bike, or workout

Are there any other watches/devices which measure deep sleep?

Is there really research that shows people need more than 8 on average, or is that a conclusion you've come to about your individual situation?

I think it also varies for a person. My rule of thumb is, I don't want to make a habit of having my alarm clock be what wakes me up. For me, that means that sometimes I'm up and moving less than 7 hours after my head hits the pillow, and sometimes I'm still sawing logs 9 hours later.

Stress seems to be a factor. Which, ironically enough, means that the more I sleep, the less I need to sleep.

Think of it in terms of open source projects, where the projects that you might be interested have only a few people working on them - but in the context of issues that affect folk completely outside of tech who don't have disposable income like those you'd see on HN or similar.

I seriously recommend that you check out a local "open data civics" group, or something similar in your area. You'll find that they're generally filled with junior programmers - but what they need are senior level programmers who can take charge of problems that junior programmers otherwise can't take charge of. Be that person.

FWIW, personally everything that I learn is entirely aimed towards helping the general public (at a distance), at the expense of my own salary. The work has been very rewarding. That said, it would be great if others would take the plunge that I have.

Feel free to email me at the address in my desc. Thanks-a-lot!

Is there something about software development that makes people feel the need to practice it every waking minute of their lives?

I mean, sometimes I do it when there's an itch I really need scratched, but most of the time I'd rather do something else. Basically anything else. Is it so wrong to want to socialize a bit or put on one of the pile of TV shows and anime I'd like to check out?

Doing that sort of volunteer work is great, but I just can't, I need to turn it off at some point.

Some things you could do:

  -Go to a local weekly meetup. Four hours a week.
  -Move your career towards non-profits. It's now your profession.
  -Teach programming to small classes. Eight hours a week.
  -Find a local advocacy group and make small contributions. Couple hours a week.

Sleep is very important for your physical and mental health, and it affects people around you, too.

Even those two extra hours you can add are really important. You probably could say "yeah, I'll just drink coffee in the morning," well, NOTHING is a replacement for sleep and coffee has some repercussions in your sleep too (depending on quantity and when you drink it).

So if you are sleep deprived and adding coffee to the mix, you're doing it wrong. Inform yourself, read books about it, ask doctors, don't make decisions based on what people say on the internet (myself included) and you will notice a big difference almost right away.

I stopped drinking coffee (because I have terrible reflux) and started sleeping more. I wake up in a better mood; I noticed that I'm more productive at work because I'm less stressed, plus my family noticed the change too.

Conversely I can take 6.5 hours of sleep and do exercise, or sleep for 8 hours and not have time to exercise.

Self-help books are noticeably silent on which is better.

I feel better now.

I think most of the people on hn (or at least most well-paid tech workers... do those still make the majority here?) can work less fairly easily, if that working less comes with the massive performance boost that goes with sleeping properly. I'm sure it's way different for retail and other hourly-type workers.

If I sleep more and if I sleep better? I am just way more effective. When I'm being effective and getting things done, people are pretty slack about me showing up late and/or leaving early, even at the FANG companies.

I mean, I don't know anyone who put "I worked X hours a day" in their promo packet; nobody cares. no, the idea behind the promo packet is that you show what you accomplished, and how those accomplishments effected the company.

My experience is that the boss gets on me about working more only when I'm not producing enough; usually the solution isn't to work more, but instead to figure out why I'm not performing up to expectations and fix that.

That is, one day you sleep more and don't exercise and the next day you sleep less and exercise.

* Acquire a shorter commute by moving somewhere closer to work, shifting your working hours to avoid rush hour, or working from home.

* Bike to work, to combine commuting and exercise time.

* Hire help with daily chores like lawn work, house cleaning, laundry, and cooking.

* Eat lunch at your desk

I realized that when I used to stay up later I wasn’t very productive, and just wasted a lot of time.

Many of us (maybe not you specifically) just do things without really thinking about them. Watching TV, playing video games, etc... we do out of boredom or habit. Not because we really want to do them. I think PG has written about cutting out the bullshit that doesn't matter [1]. Those are the things I talk about being stupid. Does looking at FB for an hour before bed matter? How about some phone game? Or binging a whole Netflix series in one night?

I get so much more done through the early parts of the day, I end up with more time to spend with my wife doing things we want to do.

[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/vb.html

If you want to get work done and you work best in the morning with no distractions, get up early and go to sleep early.

If you work best at night, stay up late and maximise your time in those productive hours.

If you are comfortable with your day job and want to maximise life enjoyment it's pretty much the same thing, except you're picking the time best suited for what makes you happy. No surprise that active people like to get up and excercise early, lots of daylight and that fresh morning air is invigorating. It's also no surprise that people who like to game or veg out tend to do it at night when they are slowing down from the day.

It is a concious choice though, and I feel many just accidentally fall into a pattern and forget they usually have the agency to choose.

I agree, and I used to be one of those who stayed up later. I found though with myself and some others I personally know that making the move to an early wake up was still better.

It's silly, but when you get a mental discipline win as the first thing you do in the morning (getting up) it builds on itself. The next step is, "I'm up, so of course I'm going to the gym". From there, "I got up early to hit the gym, of course I'm skipping that donut". And so on. Like I said, it's silly in some way, but it also builds this discipline. For me personally, it completely got rid of my procrastination habit.

If that is the case I think the key is realizing that you are cheating yourself. When you aren't sleep deprived you should be able to do most of your required work mid-morning and take it easy in the afternoon. Then when you get home you won't be exhausted and can do whatever you want and still go to bed at ease.

I could get hit by a bus and die tomorrow and I'd be damn glad I took that extra time for myself each and every day.

Ironically, when I am sleep deprived I am more accident prone and more likely to get hit by a bus.

But what's almost certain, if I sleep less than 7 hours for more than 1 week, I will catch a cold. My immune system doesn't work as well without sufficient sleep.

https://ask.metafilter.com/297591/Origin-of-the-term-Enginee...

You see it in popular commentary sometimes- the ideas of engineers, often specifically software engineers, claiming unique knowledge by deriving from first principles, in fields they are but laymen in.

Um, don't make-up stupid reasons to do things and justify it with math while ignoring the advice coming from experts in human biology.

The GP's same line of reasoning could be used to justify doing cocaine every night. Think of all the extra time you are getting!

Having enough sleep lifts up my mood, I am naturally joyful, with easy and reliable access to my memory, and relaxed. All day long.

For me, I know that having fewer pleasurable activities in well-rested mode beats the grinding experience of more stuff in grumpy mode.

Being 90-100% present and able to enjoy fewer things is better than being 30-60% present, and in partial agony, with more things.

So I prioritize sleep which forces me to do less unnecessary stuff.

I'm fine living until 65 if it was a full, happy, productive life. I don't need to live forever, nor do I want to.

It’s like working smarter vs. working harder.

I see no reason to think it has significant impact on emotional enjoyment though as you're suggesting - these studies impact learning primarily which wouldn't seem to be deeply involved there. In fact, studies exist showing positive impacts for depression patients.

Please, sleep is essential for emotional stability. I know you rely a lot on self-study, many of us on HN do, but schedule half an hour to talk with your doctor or with a psychologist, psychiatrist or sleep-specialist, and let them convince you rather than letting me do it.

Sleep is absurdly important in all aspects of life, memory integration, resting, repairing the body, emotional regulation.

Not to mention, you are way, way less prone to diseases like cancer, alzheimers, fatigue, depression...

And there are other aspects of sleeping that are interesting and enjoyable too, time slept is not time lost, you dream while sleeping, you know? If you really want to optimize time lived, then you should go for 8 hours of sleep and learn about lucid dreaming, for instance.

> In fact, studies exist showing positive impacts for depression patients.

Not sleeping does indeed have a positive impact patients with depression (and anxiety). I can tell you this because I am one of those people. Out of personal experience, yes absolutely, poor sleep for one day makes you feel better. Why? Because you're so incredibly fucking tired that you literally can't even bother to be anxious.

It is horrifying.

Please for gods sake have some respect for yourself and for your body.

If I sacrifice some of those 8 hours, I feel grumpy, moody, occasionally a bit depressed, but overall get to do more small day-to-day things of value that give me a genuine sense of fulfillment on top of that.

Have you considered that your life is boring and that you're actually participating in a rat race and sleep is allowing you to identify that?

I don't need sleep to identify that ;)

When you're young your body can take almost everything. I know that when I was 20-22 I would sleep maximum 6 hours per day because I felt the way you describe.

Now if I don't take at least 7.5 hours per night (with as few interruptions as possible), my life goes to hell, I feel drained, tired and lost, with depression looming.

Other than that though I find it far more enjoyable to do something other than blindly consume knowledge for no purpose, I'd much rather engage in social activities or play games - even making numbers go up is more satisfying to me than memorizing factoids of limited practical use to me.

I think that for most people who don't get enough sleep it's not because they are busy squeezing every bit of joy out of life. It's because they're using their phone in bed, watching TV, etc.