News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by colinbartlett on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @05:13PM (#17719542)
If the problem they are trying to solve is "too many vehicles" then we need a congestion tax. They should certainly not be limiting vehicles that are more likely to take multiple people with a Pool option.

If the problem they are trying to solve is "drivers aren't making enough" then they should impose a minimum wage on drivers or force an actual employee relationship.

If the problem they are trying to solve is a bail out of the failed and corrupt taxi medallion system, then maybe this will succeed. The real issue here is the cab drivers who are hurting because they provide an inferior service to a clientele who now have better options. I avoid cabs for all but the shortest trips because of the large percentage of bad driving experiences. Some solutions to improve yellow cabs like having a simple feedback mechanism for drivers could go a long way to leveling the playing field between Uber and Taxi.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by TuringNYC on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @05:29PM (#17719668)
What if the problem is that you are mayor and got lots of campaign funding from the taxi lobby and now they want their pound of flesh?

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/don-big-bill-article-1.14... FROM ARTICLE "A review of all contributions to de Blasio raised by or made by taxi lawyers, owners and other associates in the 2013 campaign tallies $254,451, making them de Blasio’s biggest backers by far. Fleet owner Ron Sherman is the most powerful taxi leader, just as his father Donald was in the 1980s before he was convicted in a federal felony case, and he orchestrated the de Blasio deluge of support."

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:17PM (#17720026)
> the 2013 campaign tallies $254,451

By 2014 it was over half a million dollars [1]. This bill's proponents on the City Council were similarly endowed.

[1] https://nypost.com/2014/05/17/taxi-industry-gave-de-blasio-o...

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by jkaplowitz on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:23PM (#17720076)
Honest question: what are the equivalent numbers for Uber's side of the battle? Looking at one side of the question without the other doesn't allow a balanced assessment of the situation.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:29PM (#17720112)
> what are the equivalent numbers for Uber's side of the battle?

The bulk of Uber's ~$2 million/year of political spending in New York goes towards ad campaigns [1]. The taxi lobby bought the mayor and City Council; Uber created a grassroots backlash. This was the balance. Then Uber burned off its teflon coating.

Since Lyft never bothered with politics and Juno/Gett is so young, the balance broke and we got this mess.

[1] http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/uber-spent-1-2m-lob...

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by jkaplowitz on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:46PM (#17720914)
Thanks for providing the numbers and your take on the situation.

I think we come away with quite different reactions to the same facts: I view it as telling that Uber spent roughly four times what the taxi lobby spent, but most of the conversational focus regarding spending targets the taxi lobby - one of many widespread biases in which some bits of the for-hire transportation debate get more frequently talked about and others usually overlooked.

The (legitimately real) rank and file support and skewed discussion focus which Uber's ad/lobbying money has bought them isn't my idea of grassroots backlash, even if it unwittingly enlists the grassroots in their PR campaign.

No doubt the taxi lobby is pushing their interests just like Uber pushes theirs. Neither set of industry lobbyists is truly looking out for the citizens.

But when the conversation they've shaped pairs "bought the mayor and City Council" for the less-spending party with "created a grassroots backlash" for the more-spending party, I can only marvel impressed and saddened at Uber PR's effectiveness.

In most cities, the local taxi lobby plus the citizens who oppose Uber/Lyft/Juno/Gett for normal public policy reasons are even more outclassed against a major VC-funded global would-be monopolist like Uber than NYC managed. I'm impressed at de Blasio and City Council for holding firm.

(As you can tell, I'm no fan of these companies for several reasons, but explaining those reasons substantively would be a huge tangent.)

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @11:19PM (#17721440)
> I view it as telling that Uber spent roughly four times what the taxi lobby spent

Uber spent four times as the taxi lobby spent on a single politician. I don't know what the taxi industry's total is. Given they shower tens of thousands of dollars on even state senators [1], I'd wager it's comparable to Uber's.

[1] https://nypost.com/2018/01/27/taxi-committee-head-got-thousa...

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by jkaplowitz on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @11:38PM (#17721500)
Thanks for clarifying. Good correction. I wish this data were easier to compare in an apples to apples fashion. :(

(Big apples to big apples, maybe, given the city in question?)

I can no longer edit my grandparent comment to account for your correction, so this will have to do.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by euyyn on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @09:35PM (#17721087)
Who cares how much money they spend on public ads? On the other hand, it's easy to understand why people care about how much money is donated to the campaigns of the politicians that will make these decisions.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by jkaplowitz on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @10:01PM (#17721198)
There's no legal problem with them spending as much on ads as they want, of course.

But if public opinion is mobilized as a weapon through very selective presentation of the issues in ads, in a disproportionate way that leaves the public with a skewed picture of the pros and cons, it has the same indirect effect of pressuring the politicians to act in the company's interests. The public can't react in their own interests if they don't have the right facts, so then polls will legitimately show what the company wants, by and large.

Roughly the same problem arises if they fund a heavy "lobby your elected officials" campaign, targeted only at their supporters, with no equivalent resources mobilizing those who disagree - and indeed they did this.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by euyyn on Thursday August 09, 2018 @02:20AM (#17721988)
> that leaves the public with a skewed picture of the pros and cons,

Then the other side has to also fund public campaigns, instead of just lining the politician's pockets.

> it has the same indirect effect of pressuring the politicians to act in the company's interests.

Yeah but one thing is lobbying and a very different one is "I fund your campaign if you benefit me economically". That's a soft version of bribery. Can't put it in the same level as propaganda ads that change public opinion on a topic.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by dyarosla on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @09:36PM (#17721090)
You are definitely coming off as biased which to me is strange. Maybe Uber isn’t a saint of a company, but thinking that bribery is somehow morally equivalent to advertising (whatever the multiple) is very odd.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by davidgay on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @10:00PM (#17721194)
What's the moral difference between political ads and donations to a political campaign which will presumably spend that money on ads (or other campaign related expenses)?
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @11:17PM (#17721434)
> What's the moral difference between political ads and donations to a political campaign which will presumably spend that money on ads (or other campaign related expenses)?

Public versus private view, public versus private benefit. Ads put me--the voter--in the equation. A campaign donation removes me from it.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by dyarosla on Thursday August 09, 2018 @04:37PM (#17728248)
What world do you live in that presumably most donations to a political campaign are spent on ads?
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by jkaplowitz on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @09:54PM (#17721164)
I've never had any affiliation with any transportation company or lobby group on any side of the issue, nor have I bought or shorted any relevant stocks. I admitted my dislike of Uber and their peers very explicitly, but I'm only biased in the sense of having considered the issue and formed an opinion. As are we all, if we've thought about it enough.

Not sure where bribery entered the conversation. The person I was replying to said that Uber spent $2 million / year on legal expenditures to affect the debate in NY, mostly through advertising.

I have no reason to assume that this was any more bribery than PR campaigns and lobbying generally are, and indeed I presume it didn't go beyond that.

The mention of the taxi lobby having "bought" de Blasio and the City Council was from the comment I was replying to, which I quoted to marvel at the tone of the conversation which Uber has managed to shape so favorably.

And the public support which I said Uber has "bought" is, as I noted, "legitimately real" - they just fed skewed information to the public, which is not a bribe.

(They do give lots of loss-leader promotional incentives to make people use and like their service, but we usually categorize that as marketing and not bribery without elements that are absent here.)

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by TuringNYC on Thursday August 09, 2018 @11:39AM (#17725122)
I'm not in marketing or advertisement, but I seriously wonder if honest grassroots support can be "purchased" through ad spending.

For example, I see HSBC's ads incessantly at airports about how they value customer service, but 5+ personal interactions with the bank proved otherwise and no amount of ad spending can get me to suddenly get on message boards and support HSBC. They could spend 10x for all I care and I still wouldnt use their bank...and certainly would never get on message boards to support their product.

What ride hailing apps did is make rides available to a giant sector of the population who didn't previously have any reasonable alternative. That makes me (both through my experience, and that of my mother) spend my valuable time on message boards arguing in favor of ride hailing apps.

A one line summary of my mom's very limited anecdote: for a frail elderly POC frequenting hospital trips in Manhattan and traveling back to Brooklyn -- there was life before Uber and life after Uber. For excited consumers, it has to do with the product, not ads.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by jkaplowitz on Thursday August 09, 2018 @01:49PM (#17726567)
Sure, that seems like a big win for her. I guess calling car service companies weren't an option, or there was no affordable reliable option nearby?

NYC has traditionally used that for the same purpose as Uber, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are underserved areas or racial discrimination by the dispatchers.

The biggest example of skewed information in PR (whether ads or official statements) is when they promote how much cheaper they are than the traditional alternatives. While it's often completely true, that's only the case because of their huge VC-funded warchest.

This is a major omission from many people's public policy opinion-forming: They're subsidizing rides and losing money in a way that local customer-funded competitors can't match, moving market share toward either a monopoly (as they'd prefer) or an oligopoly (including Lyft etc). Previously NYC taxi and car service companies were diverse small competitors.

Once they get enough of a collective stranglehold, or once VC funding gets sick of them waiting for self-driving cars to greatly reduce their cost of goods sold (drivers aren't cheap) in the rough and tumble real world, they'll raise prices and there will be either a captive audience or another rough societal readjustment period.

People might still think the speculative future pain is worth the tradeoff, but "cheaper" is a skewers truth without the context. The context lets them consider the full picture when forming their opinion.

But yeah, a frail elderly POC woman who needs a better way to go to the hospital has very different priorities than anyone thinking about long term economic and urban planning impacts, and I completely see why it's good for her. :) Glad her needs are better met now than they once were, even if through Uber.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by TuringNYC on Thursday August 09, 2018 @01:58PM (#17726663)
@jkaplowitz thanks for the insights -- all this makes sense.

I should note that most of my drivers for Uber/Lyft were not cost-driven but feature-driven. Cost is a factor, of course, and note that my mom almost always uses the pool option to save money -- something Yellow cabs dont/cannot offer.

Drivers:

- Dispatch services work going from Brooklyn to Manhattan, but not the other way. You'd have to know the local dispatch service, they would need to know your mobile phone number (they usually dont ask) to coordinate with you, etc. The only dispatch services that seem to work well in Manhattan are black car services, which is way out of the conversation here -- she needs a ride home, not a Lincoln Towncar :-)

- Dispatch services DO work going from Brooklyn to Manhattan give you a blanket "be ready in 5min" regardless of demand and you end up waiting and waiting -- sometimes at the worst times. I've known people to call 2 or 3 dispatch services, take the first car, and leave the other drivers hanging (unethical...but it happens.)

- Dispatch services are hard to get ahold of when you really need them, often in bad weather etc.

- Dispatch services do price in the dead-head ride back, so there is a legitimate cost issue there on both supply and demand side. Uber/Lyft mostly solve the dead-head ride back issue, so legitimately lower cost by better utilization.

A personal issue when i travel for business:

- Dispatch services mysteriously dont keep receipts or have broken credit card machines (not sure why? to hid tax revenue?) -- so I am left with a ride for work (e.g., to airport) with no receipt and thus i have to pay work expenses out of pocket and they wont be reimbursed without a receipt.

- Dispath services mysteriously "dont have change" so you're paying $80 for a $62 ride

- I'm arriving at Delta Terminal late night in LGA and all the yellow cabs are at the other terminals. You wait and wait. There isnt a good way to "hail" them. I understand the Arro app tries to solve this, but that came years too late.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by TuringNYC on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @05:37PM (#17719728)
Not sure why the downvotes. One has to realize that sometimes "solutions" are an answer not to a problem but to address some constituency.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:00PM (#17719888)
Further than that, we can’t have democracy unless all contributions to politicians/ candidates are reported and published in real time.

Without that we can’t know if a person deserves to hold a position, or even if they are eligible.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by TaylorAlexander on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @09:35PM (#17721084)
Knowing about the donations helps, but some have suggested we forego the idea of donations in the first place. It’s hard to see how it could be called a democracy when some people can donate millions to prop up a candidate. We can all watch and say “yep, they got a big donation”, but they’re still going to out find a candidate who represents the people against the moneyed interests. Perhaps not in all cases but the donations really slew the system.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @10:41PM (#17721335)
I agree.

I think the idea is that being able to track the flow of monies is supposed to lead to changes that nudge us in the direction of political donation reform.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by jrockway on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @05:49PM (#17719804)
Yup. I'm no fan of Uber but at least the service is consistent.

I remember on my first trip to NYC many years ago, I wanted to go to the airport during rush hour. No cab would stop and take me, because I looked like someone who wanted to go to the airport, which is out of their way. Apparently this is a known problem, so you're supposed to kind of hide your bag so they don't notice, then get in the cab, close the door, and THEN declare that you want to go to the airport, at which point they are legally obligated to take you. (Having used this option on subsequent trips... it consists of 45 minutes of whining.)

Meanwhile, with Uber you just press a button and they take you to the airport, bags and all.

This is why the taxi industry is dying; these little "hustles" add up and people don't trust yellow cabs anymore. Meanwhile, the app-based cars just take you where you want to go without the complaining. (I suppose they now have the ability to just not accept your trip if they don't feel like going there, which I think is fair. I don't want to listen to an adult whine about how annoying it is to go a particular place, I just want to go there.)

Right now, NYC faces a big problem. There is no viable method of transportation. There is too much traffic to drive anywhere quickly. The subways are overcrowded and broken. You can bike, but there probably won't be a citibike dock at your destination, and the bike lanes will be blocked with parked cars on the way there. It's kind of a nightmare that's going to become a crisis. Does limiting the number of Uber vehicles on the road fix any of this? Nope! But it's the only thing that's politically feasible, I guess. (We can't have congestion charging, because people in New Jersey and upstate will whine about having to pay to get to work. We can't expand the subway, because the MTA is controlled by the state and it only benefits NYC, so the governor and the legislature won't fund it. We can't enforce traffic laws to prevent people from parking in bike lanes because the NYPD is lazy and incompetent. So we're basically screwed. Eventually it will melt down completely, but we're doing an OK job of keeping the city on life support right now.)

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by CydeWeys on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:19PM (#17720042)
> Meanwhile, with Uber you just press a button and they take you to the airport, bags and all.

Not necessarily. Ubers don't want to go to the airport for the same reason that cabs don't. I've had ride shares cancel on me once the driver's gotten close enough to see that the destination is an airport. Granted it doesn't happen as often as with cabs whose meter is conveniently not working once you mention the airport, but it does still happen.

Illegal parking in bike lanes is a huge problem though. This morning there were several vehicles parked in the bike lane across two consecutive blocks, so I had to ride in the travel lane the whole while. Some asshole unsafely passed me at speed by going into the bike lane, then swerving back into the travel lane at the next parked vehicle, then we got into a yelling match at the next light about when cyclists are allowed to depart the bike lane (hint: you don't have to use it when you're literally unable to because it's blocked).

Enforcement is an absolute joke, and sometimes it's even cop cars that are blocking bike lanes. Bike lanes that aren't physically protected from people parking in them are oftentimes not worth anything, and unfortunately, we don't have any cross-town bike lanes in Manhattan! (They're on the verge of opening the first one, but it's well out of the way of my commute.)

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by girvo on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:53PM (#17720938)
If the drivers do that, report them through the app. They’ll stop doing it pretty quickly—if it’s done often enough, they’re “fired”
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by ccccccccccccc on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:42PM (#17720891)
I tried to go from SFO to South Bay a while back around midnight and eventually took a cab after being cancelled by multiple Uber drivers. Some even called me, asked where I was going, then angrily said they don't go to South Bay and cancelled.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by sithadmin on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:50PM (#17720929)
Heh, I've always had the opposite experience. They either want to go to the city or somewhere far South. Something close like Millbrae, South City or Burlingame? They cancel the ride.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by saalweachter on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @10:10PM (#17721235)
I believe all of these stories; I just don't understand why people expect or believe taxi drivers and Uber drivers are fundamentally different people with different incentives.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by greenleafjacob on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @11:24PM (#17721455)
Uber drivers get kicked off Uber if they do it too often. They might have the same incentives but the platform at least helps prevent it.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by ccccccccccccc on Thursday August 09, 2018 @04:37PM (#17728250)
The frustrating part about Uber is that I have to wait 10 minutes for each one before they refuse to take me somewhere. With a taxi I can just walk down the row of taxis at the airport. On the other hand, the only reason taxis can get that benefit is because they lobby so hard to kick the Ubers out to a parking lot 10 minutes away.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by kaishiro on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:30PM (#17720133)
"I've had ride shares cancel on me once the driver's gotten close enough to see that the destination is an airport."

I'm not understanding this. If you're using the app correctly then the driver knows the destination before they even accept the ride. If you're setting an address near an airport in an attempt to be duplicitous I would be equally discouraged as a driver.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by timr on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:45PM (#17720244)
Happens all. the. time.

I'm in NYC, and I use taxis 99% of the time because of this phenomenon: Uber/Lyft drivers rapidly accept your ride, then cancel (or slow-play the pickup, so that you cancel, to protect their driver rating) as soon as they see it's a place they don't want to go.

It's so bad here that I just won't deal with Lyft and Uber unless they're throwing serious discounts my way, and I have time to burn.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by CydeWeys on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:51PM (#17720302)
The worst part is how much of your time it wastes. With a cab, whatever, another one is coming soon. But with rideshares, you could be waiting awhile on someone who'll cancel on you, thus wasting a lot more time. Even if twice as many taxis refuse to go there as rideshares, I'm still wasting more time on the rideshares, so it's worse.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by humanrebar on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:33PM (#17720849)
> With a cab, whatever, another one is coming soon.

That really depends on your neighborhood. In the outer burroughs, you can walk some ways before you reach a busy enough street to find cabs.

If you have bags, small children, or are disabled, that walk is basically a non-starter.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by kaishiro on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:48PM (#17720273)
Fair enough. I've been taking Ubers to JFK for years and have never had this happen - but I guess everyone has their own experiences.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by timr on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:01PM (#17720382)
Airport trips are relatively easy, as long as you're in normal operating hours. Drivers don't want to go places where it's hard to get a return trip. JFK has plenty of passengers both ways.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by kaishiro on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:05PM (#17720400)
This does not seem to jive with the parent comment to whom I was originally replying though:

"Ubers don't want to go to the airport for the same reason that cabs don't."

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by timr on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:03PM (#17720693)
Seems consistent to me: Ubers don't want to places where they can't easily pick up a return trip; same as cabs. That's always been my assumption, anyway.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by jjeaff on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:22PM (#17720798)
This is a result of poor logistics on the part of Uber and Lyft. There are a large number of Ubers and lyfts that will drop off and have to leave the airport without a passenger, meanwhile, you can call you car and be told it's a 10min wait as someone who isn't even on premises accepts the fare.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by euyyn on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @09:43PM (#17721118)
Are they actually allowed to do that, or is there a regulation preventing it?
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by kaishiro on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:26PM (#17720821)
Sorry, I'm confused now. You stated above that JFK has passengers going both ways - so isn't this exactly the kind of fare an Uber would want to take on?
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by CydeWeys on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:56PM (#17720343)
Where are you taking them from?
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by kaishiro on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:59PM (#17720364)
Midtown, the village, Brooklyn, Queens... Where are you taking them from?
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by art0rz on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:03PM (#17720696)
I've been taking Ubers from and to JFK, EWR, and LGA from Williamsburg and Chinatown for years never had a cancel on any of them.

I thought the driver couldn't see the destination until they started the ride after you get in. Although I've encountered drivers starting a ride as soon as they see me on the street (which I contested and got money back for).

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by bdcravens on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @10:30PM (#17721294)
Seeing your luggage etc means they can make a pretty good guess about whether you're going to the airport.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by astura on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:23PM (#17720492)
>or slow-play the pickup, so that you cancel, to protect their driver rating

Yep, or they even just call you and ask you to cancel.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by CydeWeys on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:39PM (#17720211)
My understanding is that with Lyft, the driver does not see the destination until they've reached (or come close to) your location.

And yes, I'm using the app correctly -- not sure why you're jumping to some conclusion that I must be being duplicitous. There's no convenient "nearby" drop-off points near airports here anyway.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by kaishiro on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:47PM (#17720267)
I've never used Lyft so couldn't comment there. And you're jumping to a conclusion assuming I was jumping to a conclusion. I was just trying to make sense of how that could happen as you described.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by CydeWeys on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:52PM (#17720317)
As a social tip: If you accuse someone of potentially being duplicitous, you shouldn't be surprised when they don't react positively to it. And if you don't know a lot about something, your first guess shouldn't be that the person you're talking to must be lying about something.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by kaishiro on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:57PM (#17720349)
You seem very sensitive about this, so once again I'll just mea culpa and say I never stood up and yelled j'accuse - your description of the problem just made little sense to me and I was trying to discuss how it might be possible.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by StanislavPetrov on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:04PM (#17719920)
Agree with all of this except the part about enforcing the traffic laws against cars parked in the bike lanes. The NYPD is most certainly lazy and incompetent (as well as corrupt), but the issue is the bike lanes themselves. Most of the city, especially the most congested parts, simple have no room for a bike lane. The vast majority of vehicles blocking the bike lanes are making pickups or deliveries. There is simply nowhere else for them to pull over (much less park). This fact was ignored by Bloomberg and his friends when they drew bike lanes all over the place on congested roads. It may be a noble goal to have plenty of space for bikers and pedestrians, but that isn't the way New York was designed, and its not feasible as long as the residents and the businesses depend on a steady stream of deliveries, pickups, garbage removal and other assorted vehicles associated with living in a city. Giving tickets to the UPS driver who has to deliver a package at a location is just going to cost him money, not deter him from pulling over - he has no choice.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by CydeWeys on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:21PM (#17720067)
Here's the thing though. Those bike lanes are clearly being used by lots of people, as are the travel lanes by lots of drivers. What isn't being utilized well is all of that free parking along the street -- most of those vehicles only move twice a week when they have to because of street sweeping.

So the simple solution is to eliminate all of the free parking and replace it with paid parking and loading zones. And raise the price high enough so that there's always spots free close enough to where you're going so that vehicles have a place to park themselves for short periods of time that's outside of the travel and bike lanes.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by vonmoltke on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:46PM (#17720911)
> So the simple solution is to eliminate all of the free parking and replace it with paid parking and loading zones.

There's free parking in Midtown?

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:18PM (#17720033)
> There is simply nowhere else for them to pull over

Yes there is. We've just zoned it for streetside parking.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by StanislavPetrov on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:51PM (#17720301)
Do you live in New York? Have you been to Manhattan? There is very little parking anywhere. In the busiest places there is no street parking at all.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:53PM (#17720319)
> Have you been to Manhattan?

I live on 26th Street. We have a bike lane, a traffic lane, and two sides of street side parking. This is the case across a large faction of Manhattan, the avenues exempted. For Exhibit A in stupid parking lanes, I present Broadway.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by CydeWeys on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:59PM (#17720363)
I live and work in Manhattan and there's on-street parking everywhere. Most streets are easily wide enough for two travel lanes plus a bike lane, but instead have one or two rows of parked cars. It's quite common for streets to have two parking lanes, one travel lane, and no bike lanes.

Just pull up satellite imagery on Google Maps and it'll all be obvious.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by zjaffee on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:19PM (#17720784)
Are you sure about this? Maybe this is true on avenues, but at least with the new york I know well (grew up in greenwich village), the streets are very narrow (one parking lane and one driving lane is already tricky), with avenues sometimes being wider.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by sethhochberg on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:35PM (#17720856)
The village, particularly west of 6th Ave, is one of the only parts of Manhattan I can think of where 1 traffic lane and 1 parking lane is the norm. Once you get above 14th St or east of 6th Ave, its pretty much 2 parking lanes, one travel lane, and sometimes a bike lane nestled between the parking and the traffic on the crosstown streets (and on your major crosstown streets like 14th, 23rd, etc... still two lanes of parking, and often two lanes of traffic, but almost never any kind of bike facilities)
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by zjaffee on Thursday August 09, 2018 @01:19PM (#17726235)
I'm also talking about the area around washington square park. The majority of the streets only allow one side of parking at any given time (with opposite side of the street parking for cleaning), where the streets are one way. Should a truck be doing any unloading on these streets, virtually no one can get through (where that is often true in midtown as well on regular streets..
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by StanislavPetrov on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:12PM (#17720437)
I live and drive here. Parking is virtually non-existent.

http://www.opencurb.nyc/

You see the sea of red lines? Those are all places you cannot park.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by CydeWeys on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:54PM (#17720641)
I'm seeing a sea of green as much as I am a sea of red. "Parking is virtually non-existent" is so far from the truth I don't even know where to begin with that. You're literally looking at the map and complaining that not every single square foot of Manhattan can be used for parking. Guess what, land in the densest city in the country has better uses than parking cars. And yet in many neighborhoods almost every single block has twice the parking space than it does driving space (go look at East Village on that map). I think you're complaining about Midtown Manhattan, but what alternative solution could you possibly want? It's a simple matter of physics. The space just isn't there. There's no room to add parking; there's not even any room for people to drive or walk on the sidewalk.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by StanislavPetrov on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @09:54PM (#17721163)
The issue we are discussing is bike lanes. My whole point is the space just isn't there, and issuing tickets to trucks making deliveries in the vast areas that don't have parking isn't going to make it any better.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:05PM (#17720701)
Looks to me like that map indicates about half of one side of all the steeets are ok for parking?
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by StanislavPetrov on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @09:49PM (#17721144)
Take another look. Everywhere that is not green means that trucks, garbage trucks, UPS vans, and every other delivery service has to pull over and block a potential bike lane to make a delivery. That would be true even if every green area was open, and nobody else was parked anywhere. There is a reason that parking garages charge what they do in Manhattan, and its not because there is parking available on the street. ITT are people who have clearly never driven in the city, let alone made deliveries.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by CydeWeys on Friday August 10, 2018 @10:55AM (#17733767)
Most on-street parking isn't paid, so almost everywhere that's green on that map isn't available for delivery services anyway; it's going to be taken by personal vehicles that move twice a week for street-sweeping. Add more on-street parking and you'll just have more people with personal vehicles using it; it won't make it available for deliveries.

The best way to make delivery drop-off points available is to get rid of all the free parking and make it all paid, and keep raising prices on a block-by-block basis until there's typically spots free on any given block. It'll be a minor marginal cost for someone making a delivery to pay, say, $5/30 minutes (this will probably actually be cheaper if it means they can find a nearby spot, thus saving time driving around and time shuttling things from a farther spot). But $5/30 minutes works out to $240/day, which will easily discourage long-term parkers who shouldn't be using the scarce resource of on-street parking in busy areas anyway.

In less busy (i.e. purely residential) areas, it might make sense to move to a permit model, with permits costing several hundred dollars per month. There'd of course be parking meters mixed in with all that for people who are driving to the area and don't have permits.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by zjaffee on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:12PM (#17720743)
There is a doable solution, and that would be implementing a system where all major throughways have BRT with proper right of ways (and not the kind where other cars can just enter the bus lane). Yes this will lead to more congested streets for those who choose to drive their own cars, but to remove the current gridlock that exists due to the failing subway, this is the only real solution (where it could also easily be extended well beyond where the subways and existing buses go now.
[dead]
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:08PM (#17719943)
If you have a substantive point to make, make it.

As someone who doesn’t live in the USA it’s difficult for me to determine if your comment refers to some context I’m unfamiliar with.

Are you implying electric push scooters are a solution for people who live 20 kilometres out of the city but work there?

I’ve never been, but doesn’t it snow in NYC?

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by romwell on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:12PM (#17720742)
>it’s difficult for me to determine if your comment refers to some context I’m unfamiliar with.

The city has only lifted the ban on electric bikes a few months ago[1], but still bans electric scooters[2][3] because screw you, that's why. (They have reasons now, just like they've had reasons for banning e-bikes for over a decade after the technology provided a really viable mode of transportation at a reasonable price point).

That's the context you're missing.

[1]https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/11/why-does-new-...

[2]https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/nyregion/new-york-today-a...

[3]https://www.bizjournals.com/newyork/news/2018/07/19/nyc-s-do...

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by gniv on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:29PM (#17720835)
The other part of the context is Lime and Bird (scooter rentals), which are expanding like crazy in other cities in the US.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by komali2 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:04PM (#17720396)
NYC traffic mitigation solutions are generally backwards or working from bad information.

Allowing electric bicycles and push scooters solves the last mile problem for many people.

The argument the city has made is that electric bicycles are too dangerous and will cause injury to pedestrians. This is a bad faith argument, because it's already illegal to cycle on the sidewalk, and if the city actually cared about non driver safety, it would push to enforce bicycle lane safety. It also failed to provide sufficient, to me, evidence that electric bicycles and push scooters pose a threat to pedestrians.

If better transit options existed, including last mile (push scooter) and ~3mile solutions (electric rentable bicycles), perhaps people wouldn't Uber as much.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by romwell on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:27PM (#17720828)
FYI, responding to the parent comment, I've found out that the e-bikes were kind of unbanned a few months ago[1].

Kind of because you can go 20+mph on a regular bike without pedal assist. It seems like e-bikes are still banned statewide. Eh.

[1]https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/04/new-york-city...

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by weeksie on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @05:26PM (#17719648)
Unfortch Bloomberg tried congestion pricing and it got strangled in the cot. That would be my preference too. Simple, market-based, fair, etc. . . .

With the ranks of uber cars in the city growing as much as they have the downtown traffic has become insane and I'm for anything that would relieve that congestion. I've been living along the Prince/Spring corridor for ~10 years now and the change in bumper-to-bumper traffic, particularly on summer Fridays is outrageous.

However it's sliced, though there's a problem with the city being full of too many idling/circling cars. ~10 yellow cabs at 330k rides per day vs Uber's 60k cars at ~200k rides per day, as per the article. That means Yellow cabs are actually driving people somewhere most of the time they are on the road whereas Uber drivers are spending a lot of time idling and/or driving to or from a pickup/dropoff.

All of that said I've been looking everywhere for good supportable numbers on how Uber has been affecting Manhattan traffic and it has been impossible to get anything other than the total number of Ubers on the road which isn't very helpful.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by zone411 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:00PM (#17719887)
Your data on the number of daily rides seems quite outdated. It was 400k/day for Uber, 112k for Lyft, and 300k for taxis in the latest article I saw (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/17/nyregion/uber-taxi-driver...) and I don't see your numbers in this article. You'd at least need to know the average trip length and the work time per driver to make any comparisons as to who's more efficient.

But I agree with you that the congestion pricing would be a better idea.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by weeksie on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:21PM (#17720063)
That's super weird, maybe I had another NYT article open. Seriously, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. No numbers at all in that one though.

Anyway quick googling for 2017 numbers: https://ny.curbed.com/2017/10/13/16468716/uber-yellow-cab-ny...

So we have 10k medallion holders and ~60k uber drivers giving the same number of rides per day. No, there's not enough there to give a rigorous analysis but that is a vast difference in the amount of rides offered per car.

Maybe most of those Uber rides are in the boroughs and that accounts for the difference in ratio, but I'd be very surprised if that was the whole story.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by CydeWeys on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:24PM (#17720084)
Uber cars aren't on the road most of the time. Yellow cabs are. Those taxi medallions are expensive and they operate with shifts of drivers, the goal being to keep the taxi running 24/7, except when it needs maintenance.

It's pretty typical for any given cab to have three different drivers running in 12 hour shifts. That way you keep it on the road all 168 hours of every week. An Uber just requires a relatively inexpesive TLC license plate, not a taxi medallion, so it's typically only driven by one driver, say an average of 40 hours per week.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by lazyasciiart on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @09:48PM (#17721139)
That's a strong claim when the news is about "so many taxis sitting idle in parking lots and garages that they have become known as “taxi graveyards.” ". Is there any actual data on active time for each cab?
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by weeksie on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:27PM (#17720511)
That's a nice story but even if each yellow cab was operating 24/7 that's 3x, not 6x. // edit: right, 7 days so ~4x.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by user5994461 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:51PM (#17720626)
The given 60k figure is probably registered drivers, not active drivers in the last week.

Also, uber drivers don't work 5 days a week, for example some only work on the week end or on peak hours, it can be additional income rather than a full time job.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by CydeWeys on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:56PM (#17720655)
It explains the majority of the difference. It's simply not a remotely apple-to-apples comparison to compare yellow cab medallions, which are on the streets constantly, to rideshare license plates, which are not. The difference could even be more than 4X as another commenter points out, as many rideshare drivers are part-time.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by weeksie on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @11:57PM (#17721559)
I'm curious as to what story you think is being told? To me it's clear that the following things are true:

* Thera are 6x the number of uber drivers on the road. * A significant portion of those are new traffic * Substantially fewer rides are given per uber/ride for hire car

There's (much) more traffic and I have a hard time seeing what has changed in the city over the last ten years to make traffic so horrid other than Uber/hire cars. Maybe the decay of the subways? Still, ridership numbers aren't down and population hasn't grown much. If you've got any ideas I'd love to hear 'em.

Listen, I love not dealing with Yellow Cabs. They're a pack of assholes and Uber is far more convenient but you're bending over backward to justify a marginal magnitude difference in rides per car.

FWIW I think a hard cap on the number of hire cars is stupid but we are stuck with De Blasio and even Bloomberg couldn't get congestion pricing passed. Capping new ubers at 100k (the current total) is not really that onerous all considered. It's not like it's gonna make it 2010 again.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by CydeWeys on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:35PM (#17720176)
I would love a congestion tax. I take a bike to work, but there's no good cross-town protected bike lanes, so I hit so a lot of damn vehicle traffic that severely slows down my commute. I frequently have to go slow to wend my way through narrow gaps of parked cars and cars stuck in traffic, and sometimes get stuck completely with double parking or construction.

Make more protected bike lanes so that vehicle congestion doesn't impact bike travel, and add a congestion tax on all vehicles so that people only drive into the busiest areas if it's really necessary, and will otherwise consider alternative forms of transportation. I don't just want a cap on rideshares; a privately owned vehicle takes up just as much space on the road as an Uber, so why only target the latter? And what's to say that if you target Ubers you won't just get a corresponding increase in private drivers to pick up the slack, with the end result being the same amount of congestion?

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by zjaffee on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:23PM (#17720805)
True protected bike lanes with signaling priority that you see in cities like Seattle would be near impossible to implement in manhattan given that on all the wider crosstown streets downtown, there are major bus routes running along them that need a curb to pick people up at (although I'd also be happy just banning non commercial vehicles from lower manhattan in general where we implemented park and rides at all the closest subway/path stops).
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by Regardsyjc on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:56PM (#17720347)
Does anyone know what would be the best way to get these bike lanes? Is the only way to petition our local politicians or are there any other ways?
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by CydeWeys on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:02PM (#17720387)
More cyclists need to die.

Unfortunately I'm not joking -- a lot of the protected bike lanes we've gotten recently have been along stretches where cyclists (sometimesore than one) have died. That's what it takes to override the nimbyists in the local Community Boards.

But for a less morbid suggestion, you should join Transportation Alternatives (and its mailing lists!) and go to the Community Board meetings they send notices about where bike lanes will be debated. Every voice in favor helps. I've spoken at a bunch of em.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by caro_douglos on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:55PM (#17720645)
Another alternative is to attempt to get federal funding (local politicians love padding the budget):

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/bicycle_pedestrian/fund...

This explained a number of dumb bike lanes (which lead to nowhere) in my 'hood.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @05:18PM (#17719573)
> the cab drivers who are hurting because they provide an inferior service to a clientele who now have better options

This is a bill for bail out medallion owners, not cab drivers. Most NYC taxi medallions are corporate owned.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by mlthoughts2018 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:22PM (#17720797)
I read it differently. This legislation is good for Uber, because it lays the groundwork for severe regulatory capture where Uber can use the cap to prevent competitors from having any chance to gain critical customer bases.

It’s an anti-competition decision disguised as if city hall is doing something for the people.

Now Uber just has to lobby to have its cap raised or be allocated a greater portion, and steadily push others out.

This way Uber can get the transit monopoly it wants but without having to do the hard work of making the product profitable at a price point that drivers and riders actually value, which it currently papers over with VC funding and distraction stories about branching into other lines of business that are clearly not significant.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by asah on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @05:14PM (#17719556)
In NYC a tax would be wildly regressive and favor wealthy wall st users over all others.

EDIT: congestion tax = more expensive mobility (incl taxis and ride sharing) = less affordability

It's similar to local sales taxes: the 1% aren't affected by the cost of basic items, but the 99% are.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by tomtheelder on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @05:22PM (#17719599)
A congestion tax? That seems very unlikely to me, I would be shocked if car owners/users were not wealthier almost across the board.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by bunderbunder on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @05:37PM (#17719724)
Well, car owners living in Manhattan, anyway. I doubt the same is true for FHV drivers coming in from further out.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by CydeWeys on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:25PM (#17720094)
There aren't many poor people commuting into Manhattan every day using a car. You'd be spending way more on fuel and parking than the monthly MTA ticket costs.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by bunderbunder on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:49PM (#17720279)
Well, if you're an FHV driver, MTA won't cut it, since you can't take it on the train with you, and you need it to do your job. On the upside, given the nature of the work, you shouldn't have to worry too much about parking costs.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by admax88q on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:38PM (#17720561)
With a for hire vehicle any congestion tax you had to pay should be passed on to your customers.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by ahoy on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @05:51PM (#17719821)
In my (admittedly anecdotal) experience, the poorest here don't have cars.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by megablast on Thursday August 09, 2018 @12:12AM (#17721600)
Good. Anyone driving a car should be paying enough money to cover what they use, something they clearly aren't doing. Drivers get too much of a free ride.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by pastor_elm on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:11PM (#17719971)
How so? Why do poor people need to drive to downtown Manhattan on weekdays? The car volume is almost exclusively for hire vehicles.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by dajohnson89 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @09:47PM (#17721131)
Uber drivers are also really bad drivers, compared to the norm. They don't know the streets as well, they make abrupt stops in the middle of the street (cabs at least pull over if possible), they drive just weird and it's annoying.

As a driver and pedestrian, I can spot an uber car immediately without even seeing the sticker. I like to play this guessing game in my head, and 9 times out of 10 I see the uber sticker, "T L & C" license plate, and/or a single passenger in the back seat staring at their phone.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by zjaffee on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:07PM (#17720715)
I think there's a 4th factor which is under looked by your comment and it's that the way in which ride sharing is taking away revenue from the MTA. While this is likely caused by the system constantly being under construction and having delays, removing idling cars from the road would very likely also help with reducing bus traffic (although it's pathetic that NYC hasn't implemented BRT on all major corridors such as they are going to do on 14th street.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by rdlecler1 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @11:51PM (#17721531)
There are something like 8k restaurants in New York. Imagine if a restaurant lobby was able to limit new restaurants. This is basically what the taxi industry is doing.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @11:58PM (#17721562)
It would be more like they were limiting the new buildings that could be zoned for restaurants. Since land is a finite resource, the number of restaurants that NYC can even contain is limited.

Here the limited resource is traffic bandwidth. Without congestion tolling, arbitrary regulations are the next best thing to helping to regulate usage.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by naveen99 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:18PM (#17720777)
Uber already does surge pricing which has a similar effect as congestion tax.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by pradn on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @05:20PM (#17719586)
The real issue is that cab drivers are committing suicide because of their debts. Simple market analysis ignores the real human toll these technological changes are making. Yes, better service should be rewarded. But those hurting should get some relief. (I personally don't care too much about medallion-owning companies/groups.)
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:20PM (#17720054)
> cab drivers are committing suicide because of their debts

This isn't the motivation for this regulation. If it was, the same City Councilman who proposed this cap wouldn't have shot down a minimum-wage proposal for cab drivers. Remember: most medallions aren't owned by cab drivers. And cab drivers don't donate.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by admax88q on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:41PM (#17720576)
Reflief shouldn't be protecting their broken business model and the corrupt medallion system. This isn't a problem technology is causing, its loan sharks locking taxi drivers into debt with the insane prices of a medallion. I'd rather see the medallion system removed, debt relief provided to the drivers and a more fair congestion tax or similar to control the number of cars.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by lotsofpulp on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @05:22PM (#17719602)
That issue is present with everyone else also, not just cab drivers. I don't see why they should be singled out for relief. If we want to provide a safety net for people obviated by technology, that has nothing to do with Uber or Lyft.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by tzs on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:08PM (#17719948)
One difference between taxis and "everyone else" is that with everyone else, the business that does in their business is usually legal.

Uber and Lyft were largely operating illegally when they started in most cities. They ignored expensive licensing requirements. They ignored safety regulations. They ignored insurance requirements. They ignored price controls on fares. They ignored requirements to accommodate disabled people.

Taxi companies who were obeying all these rules (which all imposed costs on the taxi companies that Uber and Lyft did not have) had a reasonable expectation, perhaps even a right, to expect the city would force Uber and Lyft to follow those rules too, or would shut them down. But the cities didn't, so I think a good case can be made that the cities owe the taxi drivers a bailout.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by bln_wgc on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:02PM (#17720386)
Uber and Lyft operated 100% legally in NYC from their inception. The NYC ride-sharing market is not like other US cities, which allow peer-to-peer ridesharing. All rideshare drivers in NYC are licensed by the TLC, and Uber and Lyft are licensed TLC operators.

Uber and Lyft beat NYC taxis fair and square - they used the existing TLC regulations (with the overhead required) and won out because of being a better product.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by newfocogi on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:08PM (#17719949)
I think this concept is address well in Neil Postman's "Five Things We Need to Know About Technological Change" [1]

[1] http://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/classes/188/materials/pos...

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by pradn on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:19PM (#17720469)
Perfect is the enemy of the good. Why not help some people on the way to helping a wider group? I do agree that we need wider-ranging policies for people displaced by technological change. It would help people find work and society make use of their talents.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by CamperBob2 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @05:39PM (#17719736)
The idea that Uber, or any other company, is responsible for someone else committing suicide is both bizarre and offensive.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by pradn on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:11PM (#17719970)
From https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/01/nyregion/a-taxi-driver-to...:

Immigrants from Romania, the couple had bought their New York City taxi medallion nearly three decades ago. Lately, it had been difficult to find fares. Her husband worked 12-hour shifts, but brought home less money. He was worried about the plunging value of their once-lucrative medallion and frustrated about Uber’s takeover of the industry.

On a cold day in March, Mr. Ochisor hanged himself in his garage in Queens. His family blames the growing hopelessness he felt over his fortunes as a taxi driver.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by admax88q on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:47PM (#17720601)
The problem is not ride sharing, its the fact that being a taxi driver in NYC is viewed as an investment rather than a job. That you have to purchase a medallion for insane sums of usually borrowed money.

It's a broken system. Could you imagine if you had to put up $1.3 million to be a factory worker? Money that you're still on the hook for if the factory ends up closing due to lack of demand? Charging people for the privilege of working, and somehow its Uber's fault for not protecting this corrupt and manipulative system.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by user5994461 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:57PM (#17720663)
If the medallion was bought 30 years ago as said, it was surely acquired for closer to $3 than to $1 million. He could sell it for a large profit, despite the downtrend in the recent years.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by andrewprock on Thursday August 09, 2018 @01:20AM (#17721784)
Thirty years ago they were about $250,000 in today's dollars. He would be lucky to recoup that in the current market.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by CamperBob2 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:31PM (#17720136)
Yeah, a real tear-jerker. So, let's fix this. How do you propose to write a law that defines exactly when responsibility for suicide attaches?

In this case, Mr. Ochisor's customers were so desperate for an alternative to his three-decade-old business that they turned to a startup company that works by (literally) dodging taxi regulators. Is that really Uber's fault? The regulators'? The customers? Just how far do we want to take this whole idea of being reponsible for our competitors' mental health, or that of our vendors?

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by jstarfish on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:16PM (#17720763)
Immigrants have a hard enough time as it is getting access to this country. They can spend a decade or more going to the trouble of raising funds (not just burning free VC money), getting sponsorship/visas, emigrating, assimilating, and dropping serious capital to secure just an abstract right to operate a business, only to see their efforts trampled by a competitor that outscales and outperforms them by (your own admission!) cheating the same system.

What recourse did he have? To this day government response to Uber's incursions has been mostly toothless.

I'm no friend of the taxi lobby but the guy was just trying to do right by his family up until he killed himself. While I don't see how Uber could realistically be held responsible for this guy's suicide, their undercutting his business certainly contributed to it, and you're being needlessly callous.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by knuththetruth on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:41PM (#17720580)
I don’t know how far, but possibly beyond glib dismissals of people’s suicides as a “real tear-jerker.”
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by CamperBob2 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:47PM (#17720604)
(Shrug) It's an appropriate response, I think, to the use of peoples' suicides for purposes of overt emotional manipulation.

Your beef is with the taxi cartels and their click-hungry sympathizers in the media, not with me. They started it.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by knuththetruth on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:01PM (#17720684)
It speaks more to your disposition than anything else that being troubled by other’s suicides is “emotional manipulation.”

And I don’t have “beefs” with fictional boogie man cooked up by Uber, however bought in you are to that narrative. I certainly don’t remember “taxi cartels” stealing and passing around the medical records of rape victims, but that was probably a conspiracy by their “click-hungry sympathizers in the media.”

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by CamperBob2 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:40PM (#17720881)
And here come the whataboutisms. You'll notice that in the post above, I explicitly called out Uber for actively circumventing the local taxi laws. I'm not apologizing for Uber, believe me, just pointing out that I'm not the one pulling the emotional-manipulation strings. The journalists (and the HN posters) who are citing someone's suicide to back up their position favoring one debatably-ethical actor over another are the ones who are doing that.

Uber is not responsible for pushing people to suicide at the end of a 30-year taxi-driving career. If you disagree, I respectfully suggest there are other sites where such opinions are more in line with the underlying ethos.

Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by pradn on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:14PM (#17720000)
Companies are huge economic actors. They can have very large effects on people's livelihoods. If people feel hopeless, they may commit suicide. Here, we have a very direct link between app-hailing and the reduction in taxi driver incomes. There's no denying that a major factor in these people's suicides were these apps.
Re:Uber Hit with Cap as New York City Takes Lead in Crackdown by CamperBob2 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:32PM (#17720143)
Same question as I posed in the other post. At what point in the course of business competition do I become responsible for your suicide?

If you mod me down and send me into an emotional crisis, are you responsible for what I do as a result? No? Why not?