I am sharing my experience because I know how awful sleep problems can be.

I'm in my 30s and eat what many consider a very healthful diet - virtually no sugar, just veggies, high quality fats and proteins, and minimal fruit. I spend 7-9 hours in bed; yet wake up feeling exhausted every. single. day. I'd love to exercise, but I'm too continuously tired to get started.

Melatonin, when taken via dissolving sublingual tablet (1-3 mg), makes me feel a bit sleepier, but doesn't often keep me asleep through the night. When swallowed via a capsule, it makes me feel like I've been hit by a bus for the entirety of the next day, even if I slept the night before.

My own research led me to magnesium glycinate, which helped to some degree (maybe I wasn't taking enough?), but didn't solve the problem. My biggest trouble is falling asleep - I can be dead tired, but as soon as I'm in bed, my mind goes nuts, and I lie awake for hours. Then, by the time my body is in nice deep sleep, it's time to get up, and the deep sleep is disrupted.

I recently had an appointment with my physician (who practices integrative medicine and is not your typical MD), and he told me to try a relatively new formulation of magnesium called Magnesium L-Threonate, commercially known as Magtein.

It is apparently the best type of magnesium for crossing the blood-brain barrier, and thus, likely the best at addressing sleep issues.

I've been on it for about a week now (taking 1000mg 2 hours before bed and 1000mg upon waking in the morning), and have slept better in the last two nights than I have for a long time. Here's to hoping it keeps working!

I also use a couple other hacks to help me sleep - at night, about an hour after the sun sets, I wear "blue blocking" glasses (the UVEX S0360X fit nicely over my prescription glasses). Sounds (and looks) goofy, but for me it creates a noticeably stronger "sleep pressure" than I'd experience without them. I also wear a mask over my eyes when sleeping, to block out any ambient light, and I just started making an effort to listen to music while waiting to fall asleep. I think all of these things help to some degree.

Also, check out the book "Why We Sleep" by Matthew Walker.

Have you got checked for sleep apnea?

Have you tried sleeping elsewhere? On a couch? What about sleeping in a semi-seated position? Would that work?

How's your weight? Does it go up or down?

Finally, if you are in bed for 30 minutes and you haven't fallen asleep, it's probably way better to either get up and do some stuff or to just accept that you won't be sleeping and just stay there and go through your imagination.

What you've just described also sounds a lot like sleep apnea. Healthy, non-snorers can have it so might be worth doing a quick test.

Sleep apnea is one of the biggest unsolved problems in medicine. It effects 1 in 4 people and there's no good solution for it. I think this is an area where technology (and not drugs or surgery) can make a big difference.

You're half right. It's very common and very untreated.

But for most people, a CPAP machine is a great solution. There are few other serious medical conditions that can be more thoroughly addressed!

If you might have it, you really should look into it, there is a good chance your life can be turned around and improved more than you (pun intended) could dream of. Mine was!

Modern CPAP machines are quiet, comfortable, and only cover your nostrils. And they can save your life!

My friend is a terrible snorer, but I noticed one day when he fell asleep on the couch, that he’d stop snoring, then do this big gasping snore. It was really scary actually! I told him about it, he did a sleep study, and he turned out to have bad apnea. A few months of cpap therapy and he’s a new man. He used to pretty much fall asleep any time he sat down and did nothing, he was always tired, he needed a brass band to wake him up. Now he’s full of piss and vinegar, gets more work done, and he’s just a lot happier.

The test is apparently easy and you can do it at home with a device you get from your doctor and wear overnight, and his machine fits in the palm of one hand is basically silent. Anyone who thinks this is a possibility for them, I agree with you, get checked!

If you haven’t already, try doing an all-day physical activity (all-day hike, bike ride, or some other physical recreational activity) one day a week. For me, that made it a lot easier to start working out more.

This is going to be a totally anecdotal post: In my twenties I had the same problem when waking up, slept 7-8 hours, worked out, good job, super healthy diet but woke up exhausted, miserable, and borderline depressed 9/10 days. It took two years and lot of blood tests over time but turns out I had Hashimoto's disease, which lead to hypothyroidism. It is rare for someone in their 20s but I guess I beat the odds :), although it dose affect about 5% of the population at some time. My point here is your story seems very similar to mine (i.e possible thyroid issue) so maybe talk to your Dr about the possibility, especially if this has been a long term issue.

I feel the same way brother. And it took me 10 years to diagnose it. Just took one good GP

It’s recommended in Walker’s book so you probably already know about it, but CBTI (cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia) might be a useful intervention for you based on the difficulties you’ve described.

Do you find it easier to fall asleep at other times than when you choose to go to bed? It might be that you have delayed sleep phase syndrome, or (less likely) a non-24 hour sleep phase issue.

My partner is non-24 and generally manages a "normal" schedule. However, she sometimes has to roll her sleep, where she'll go to bed an average of 1.5 hours later each day, until she's back to going to bed around 10.

When she is holding her sleep schedule steady she uses light goggles in the morning (literally goggles with bright reflected lights on them) and low-dose melatonin at night (can't remember the exact dose). She also watches her meal times relative to when she wants to go to sleep. I think these things would be useful for someone without the non-24 issues, but are good sleep hygiene things.

Do you consume stimulants like caffeine?

Check your Vitamin D levels, just out of curiosity, before giving Vitamin D3 a try. This doctor here says you need to be at 60-80 ng/ml D3 in the blood to get very restful sleep:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF24xmJQK1k

Also, D3 and Magnesium work very well together. In fact, if you add more D3, it's going to use-up even more magnesium.

60-80 seems absurd to me considering you’d be unlikely to hit that spending all day outside in the sun topless in Hawaii.

Like you, following a very similar diet of high quality animal fats and no carbs (banting). I to would have racing minds when in bed. Best thing I found (and this will sound cliche) is meditation. It's pretty much set for helping racing minds.

Not sure if minimal fruit counts as a healthy diet

It does, assuming you're getting enough vegetables; fruit is mostly sugar (high glycemic load which causes crashes, promotes diabetes, etc.), so not actually that good for you on the macronutrient level.

Uh not really. Most fruit is both low to medium GI and GL. Sugar in fruit is bound to fiber and bloodstream uptake is fairly slow.

There is a negative correlation between RDA fruit consumption and diabetes.

I'm wondering why you're flagged. Yes, fruits have sugar (fructose), but when you're eating the fruit whole your comment is on point. The fiber in the fruit makes the sugar absorption slower.

Of course if you're drinking 2L of juice a day you're gonna have a problem, as you would going ham on any kind of food. (ANY)

Correlation does not equal causation. People who generally eat less fruit are people who usually ignore health advice in general, and would replace fruit with stuff like sugar or carbs. Eating too much fruit gives an overload of fructose, which also triggers an insulin response.

If you eat the right meats, like liver, you get more vitamins and minerals then you would from fruit. So if you know what you are eating, it's fine to cut off fruit.

>Eating too much fruit gives an overload of fructose,

Note the operative modifier 'too much'

You can eat your recommended daily intake of fruit in one sitting with no other food and still remain below high GL levels.

Digestion is a complex process. Your model that anything containing fructose is bad is not supported by any data / analysis I am aware of, and contradicted by nearly all of it.

Mammals process most of thier fructose consumption in their small intestines. Only high doses that overload this capacity lead to harmful spillover to the liver etc.

fruit is not healthy for you, contrary to what you may have traditionally heard. you can get everything you need, vitamins and minerals wise, from vegetables, without the sugar that comes with fruits.

>fruit is not healthy for you

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/105/6/1462/4569801

Fruit consumption is inversely correlated with all-cause mortality as best we can tell. Probably something to be said about people who eat fruits being among the more health minded individuals as well and skewing results but it’s probably not “unhealthy” to eat fruits.

Correlation doesn't mean cause. Otherwise you would draw conclusions like divorce rates in Maine affected by margarine consumption.

https://tylervigen.com/view_correlation?id=1703

People consuming fruit could be more healthy individuals in general, exercising and avoiding other types of food which might have more effect than consuming fruit. So be careful about drawing conclusions from correlations or epidemiological studies as you have to consider other possibilities.

But I didn’t imply causation? I literally gave the same “could be skewed due to healthier lifestyle choices” in my comment...

Hey, you are on HN. The opportunity to shine the `correlation isn't causation` was too strong. /s

Try some carbs

Used to have really bad eye tics, along with difficulty falling asleep and leg cramps. For the longest time I thought it was Tourette or some other neurological issue. Turn out I was deficient in magnesium for all my early adulthood (coffee and alcohol depletes it quickly). Minerals are underrated.

There's really no great solution to stress-induced sleep problems except to reduce stress.

Quick note for anyone reading this about magnesium glycinate: this form of magnesium contains an amino acid called glycine, and we have evidence that glycine can improve sleep quality. According to examine.com, the evidence is "very high" that:

>In persons undergoing mild sleep deprivation, 3g of glycine an hour prior to sleep is able to increase sleep quality and improve self-reports of fatigue and well being the next day due to better sleep.

I take approx. 10g of gelatin a day which also contains glycine, and I also notice improvements in my sleep.

According to consumerlab.com, there have only been a few, small studies, all supported by or involving employees of Ajinomoto, which sells glycine. So it seems wrong to call the evidence "very high".

My experience with Melatonin is similar to yours. I tried the 2.5 mg and the 5mg dosages. If anything they made my sleep even shallower in the sense, yeah I have my eyes closed but am fully aware of my thoughts and surroundings but am too lazy/tired to be physically active. It also gave me weird dreams (not that I mind). waking up was tiring because all night my mind was awake. I think its good for REM sleep but what I desired more was the deeper sleep cycles that make me feel rested.

Note that the article suggests the ideal dosage is 0.3 mg, and larger dosage might not have the desired effect.

That's exactly right as the body uses melatonin spike as a wake up signal as well.

I think it was .25 and .5 mg I tried -- half of the minimum dose that was available over the counter at that time. It was about 5 years ago, so don't remember too well.

If you read the article, you'll note that the dosage and quality of the melatonin matters greatly, and simply saying that it didn't work isn't that meaningful if you don't explain at least what the dosage was.

Very low dosages seem to work best, according to the article... dosages lower than what is commonly sold. My anecdotal experience matches this recommendation.

Let's keep the magnesium training rolling.

NOW ZMA [1] has been my life saver for years. It never fails to make me enter "sleep mode". The same dose works now as has always worked. Do not take calcium supplements at the same time as ZMA.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0013OZGQ0/r

Where did you get the idea for Magnesium Glycinate? Never heard of it.

My sleep cycle has been out of whack since 17 years old. I've learned the hard way - no school jobs, relationships, etc. that require early mornings.

I have been able to improve things with a half of dose of Ambien 2-3x a week. I've heard good reports from some of the newer patented drugs (Lunesta, I think) but they're still quite expensive.

You don't want to take a sleeping pill everynight. That's pretty bad. I would suggest meditation.

I have tried tons of stuff for sleeping. Meditation helps, but to be honest Magnesium Bisglycinate has had far better effect. Plus meditation takes a fair bit of practice and is unlikely to help in help immediately because of that.

Lunesta is available cheaply as a generic under the name eszopiclone.

Have you tried meditation? Nothing fancy, just taking 15 minutes to focus on breathing exercises.

Whenever I find my mind racing at night, it's because I haven't taken any "down time" during the day. Laying in bed at night is often the first moment of my entire day (other than taking a shower) where I have no external stimulation of work or entertainment.

Best of luck with everything though!

I use Mg Citrate, because it seems pretty bio-available and easy to find. Does the form matter? Maybe I should switch to Glycinate.

Gah, the Mg Citrate I used from Solgar seems to be contaminated with Arsenic according to labdoor.

https://labdoor.com/rankings/magnesium