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Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by dekhn on Thursday July 12, 2018 @03:41PM (#17517958)
My coworker went down to the South Pole to install Debian on the IceCube cluster (funny story: it's hard to cool servers there because the air is really dry) ~14 years ago. Basically, a 48 hour trip both ways just to insert a CD and press reset. We were all jealous.
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by chris_mc on Thursday July 12, 2018 @04:41PM (#17518413)
> just to insert a CD and press reset

That may have been all he did that time, but imagine if stuff had gone sideways, he'd have to troubleshoot it from Antarctica! I thought working from home was bad...

Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by dekhn on Thursday July 12, 2018 @05:04PM (#17518602)
Yes, that's why he was sent. In case something went wrong, he was qualified to fix it in production. I've come to an appreciation for people who have jobs where they don't do much most of the time, but when the shit hits the fan, they do exactly what was required.
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by ghaff on Thursday July 12, 2018 @07:00PM (#17519329)
Pilots being another good example.

Years ago, I interviewed for a couple of positions with Schlumberger which, at the time, basically went out to oil wells and made various measurements. In a lot of ways, it was essentially a tech job but the reason you had engineers (assisted by techs) was that you had various training and, presumably, other background for when things went sideways.

Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by skrebbel on Friday July 13, 2018 @02:37AM (#17520933)
Fun story, though off topic: Schlumberger, having people all over the world on dangerous places such as oil platforms (but also in offices), thinks that physical safety for their employees is very important. They iterated on this so well for so many decades, that the primary cause of employee death is now traffic accidents, involving employees thousands of miles away from oil wells, on their way to the office.

Problem solved? Of course not. Employee safety is still a core KPI after all. So to address this problem, they installed a device in every company issued car which makes a BEEP! sound every time you drive aggressively (as judged by the device). After three BEEP!s you have to explain yourself to your boss.

Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by Ntrails on Friday July 13, 2018 @04:11AM (#17521271)
I do not want a company car that much...
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by Cyph0n on Friday July 13, 2018 @03:47PM (#17526089)
Not only that, but not wearing a seatbelt (even as a passenger) can get you fired on the spot!

I was extremely impressed with the safety-first culture when I interned at Schlumberger a few years back. Your coworkers will yell at you if you simply step into a work area with proper PPE (hardhat, safety boots, etc.).

Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by raverbashing on Friday July 13, 2018 @08:56AM (#17522509)
Seems like your standard tachometer with an alerting system, a lot of companies have company cars with something similar
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by drumttocs8 on Thursday July 12, 2018 @08:14PM (#17519645)
Power utility system operators, and other operators, are prime examples. Usually they just sit around and play farmville. But when it hits, they're the guys making complex decisions that affect when your power turns back on, and therefore how much money the company is losing until that happens.
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by Cthulhu_ on Friday July 13, 2018 @03:44AM (#17521169)
Sometimes I wonder about an operator-type job like that, or security, or stuff like that - you know, sit around all day / night, browse the interwebs, play farmville or what have you, or do remote contract work to maintain skills and make a lot of money on the side. I had a neighbour who worked as a roadworks driver (like, the car that puts down cones and such), his job involved a lot of night shifts (good money) and then waiting for hours, occasionally moving - that gave him a lot of time to study.
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by baxtr on Friday July 13, 2018 @04:23AM (#17521338)
Isn’t that exactly how firemen operate? In the business world these crucial roles are neglected and operations is driven towards maximum efficiencies. On the other hand, no one sane would suggest to utilize firemen better during their idle time.

EDIT: I guess that is the reason why consultants come into the picture

Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by munificent on Thursday July 12, 2018 @06:44PM (#17519244)
You can think about it much like load managing servers:

A job has a task load that varies over time. Those tasks also have some maximum latency before Bad Things happen. Thus, you need enough worker capacity to handle the peak load. You can allocate new workers on demand, but that also has a certain warm-up time which can be problematic if it's lower than the maximum latency.

For most white-collar service-oriented jobs, the variance of that task load is quite smooth. If you're a software dev not working directly on a production service, there aren't that many urgent surprises. Also, the max latency is really high — many tasks can be put off till tomorrow, next sprint, etc.

That makes it easy to allocate just enough workers to handle your average task load, keep them busy all day, and rarely need to spin up or spin down new ones.

But some jobs just have really high variance or really low latency. No one knows when a patient is going to show up at a trauma hospital but when one does, you need the surgeon on site right now and not somewhere stuck in traffic.

For that kind of work, the logical thing to do then is to have spare idle worker capacity. It seems inefficient, but it's cheaper than the cost of missing your latency targets when a spike happens.

You can reduce the idle capacity needed by reducing variance. For example if you flew all your trauma patients to one hospital, that actually lets you allocate surgeons more efficiently. Because then at that point you have spikes frequently enough that the aggregate number of patients in a given day becomes more consistently predictable. Instead of one surgeon each sitting on their thumbs most of the day at ten city hospitals, you get three surgeons that reliably have a couple of patients a day at the regional hospital. (But of course there is the overhead of getting all the patients there.)

Also, you can reduce idle capacity by lowering warm-up time. That's why doctors have pagers — it reduces the time between a patient coming in and the doctor being ready to help.

Or you can increase the max latency, though this can be hard based on the nature of the work. For example, if you're better able to stabilize patients, you may be able to wait longer until the doctor is on-site.

In this case, the "install Debian" job has really high variance. 99% of the time it's a click, 1% of the time, you've gotta know some Linux internals. The max latency is low because you don't want the IceCube array non-operational for long. And the warm-up time is really high — fly someone out to the South Pole.

So the reasonable response is to throw money at idle capacity and send someone out pre-emptively.

Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by cozzyd on Thursday July 12, 2018 @04:58PM (#17518542)
I work on an experiment at the south pole (not IceCube). sshing into fix stuff is painful, even when the "good" satellite is up.

Protip: pressing up several times and then enter is very dangerous since the command that you will actually run may not have appeared on your screen yet.

Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by thrownhwn on Thursday July 12, 2018 @05:35PM (#17518820)
Similar experience to being a hacker-cracker 20 yrs ago, bouncing off servers around the world over a modem connection to telnet into some poor SunOS 4 boxes in South Korea or at GSFC (NASA). Sometimes you had to wait minutes before anything appeared on the screen while TCP was doing its thing. God forbid if you accidentally (yp)cat’d some large file..:)
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by foobarian on Thursday July 12, 2018 @07:01PM (#17519336)
Even on a good console I put a # at the start of the line before editing or typing it in case I accidentally hit Enter too soon.

And never ever paste commands without first trying it into a trash terminal or editor.

Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by craftyguy on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:14PM (#17520242)
That's an interesting technique that I've never heard of. Do you have fast shortcuts/keybindings for removing the # when you are ready, or is it '(left arrow x N) + ^H' each time?
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by boterock on Friday July 13, 2018 @02:34AM (#17520926)
In windows what I do is Home->Delete I am amazed at how useful home, end pgup and pgdown keys are, and I am pretty sure not many people know or use them a lot.
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by scarejunba on Friday July 13, 2018 @12:07AM (#17520458)
^A ^D
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by foobarian on Friday July 13, 2018 @01:40AM (#17520746)
^A ^D it is. But since you bring up moving the cursor, it also is very helpful to 'xset r rate 160 80' to speed it up substantially in Xwindows.
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by craftyguy on Friday July 13, 2018 @01:47AM (#17520772)
I assume (by trying on zsh) that this is a configuration change you made vs. some keybinding I've yet to discover?
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by adrianN on Friday July 13, 2018 @05:16AM (#17521523)
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by juki on Friday July 13, 2018 @03:10AM (#17521044)
Those are Emacs style keybindings, which are the default on most shells. You've probably switched to Vi style bindings in zsh.
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by dredmorbius on Friday July 13, 2018 @05:47AM (#17521639)
Readline bindings, emacs mode.

Despite (mostly) using vim as an editor, it's got to be emacs on the shell itself.

Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by tobias2014 on Thursday July 12, 2018 @09:29PM (#17519909)
Use mosh and you will have a much better experience. It's made for high latency connections.
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by craftyguy on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:12PM (#17520235)
Some mission critical production systems don't really want you installing <insert current trendy software here>. That's probably a highly unpopular view on HN, but having downtime on IceCube, for example, means they may miss an extremely rare event (neutrino hitting something and generating muons/photon shockwaves) that they could detect.
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by de_watcher on Friday July 13, 2018 @02:01AM (#17520819)
Mosh has been around for a while, it's not like "current trendy software". I thought people use it for bad connections (and envied them because of my stuff in the jungle that isn't performant enough for ssh).
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by snovv_crash on Friday July 13, 2018 @02:00AM (#17520814)
Something released in 2012 isn't exactly what I'd call "trendy". Technically it really does have some improvements for poor latency and high-packetloss connections.
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by consp on Friday July 13, 2018 @04:53AM (#17521443)
I'm pretty sure they consider everything sub 10 years old "new and untested" in this field, on this server/array.
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by eeZah7Ux on Friday July 13, 2018 @08:06AM (#17522169)
Indeed. Mosh is still new (less than 10 years old), albeit it could get an exception if it really helps avoiding errors and typos due to latency.
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by beefield on Thursday July 12, 2018 @05:36PM (#17518832)
Jusr amoment ago learned about mosh.org that sounds like would be helpful for that kind of situations.
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by azernik on Thursday July 12, 2018 @06:53PM (#17519293)
Since you're here! Is Iridium out of your price range, or does even that have latency/bandwidth issues for the kind of SSH work you're talking about?
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by bacon_waffle on Friday July 13, 2018 @03:03AM (#17521018)
At least a few years ago, IceCube had it's own Iridium modems, in addition to a small pool of them for the station at large. Latency is very high, bandwidth is very low. It's much better when you can send an email over Iridium to ask for help from a human on the other side, than to SSH and do it yourself.

I think the situation now is a lot better than it was, but a few years ago, most of the day there was no connectivity except Iridium. Most communications satellites are in orbits that don't take them near the poles, with Iridum being the obvious exception.

Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GOES_3 was an amazing piece of the South Pole infrastructure for several years. There was a period every year where the Earth would eclipse GOES-3 - the batteries onboard were long dead - so the satellite would power down and everyone just sorta crossed their fingers and hoped it came back online with the right orientation and with enough electronics going so that we could keep using it. Bandwidth wasn't great, but it was quite reliable especially considering that it was launched in 1978.

Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by cozzyd on Thursday July 12, 2018 @07:05PM (#17519344)
iridium is available all the time but very slow and the scarce bandwidth is not prioritized for incidental ssh access. The problem is that there are a lot of people / experiments at Pole.
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by robocat on Friday July 13, 2018 @06:24AM (#17521763)
I met some scientists (at the pub) from NASA the other day - they had been on a plane going repeatably from sea level to stratosphere all the way from from Hawaii to Chirstchurch,NZ to sample the atmosphere.

They had designed and built their own instruments, but they were on the plane so they could fix any problems, although the idea was to have no problems!

Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by DannyB2 on Thursday July 12, 2018 @04:51PM (#17518486)
I would have thought that for the time and cost of doing that, they could just ship the CD with a booklet of photographic instructions. An instruction manual SO SIMPLE that even a scientist at the South Pole could understand it. Or they could make a video chat call and it could be explained.

(I don't mean scientists are so dumb, but that they might have Antarctic Stare...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_T3_syndrome

Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by bacon_waffle on Thursday July 12, 2018 @06:05PM (#17519007)
Former IceCube winterover here. Things at Pole often don't go smoothly, and detector uptime is very valuable considering the cost of building and operating it.

Video chat isn't a realistic option - not the greatest connectivity down there...

Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by dekhn on Thursday July 12, 2018 @05:01PM (#17518571)
The satellite connections provided only limited communication windows and not enough for video chats.

They have some technical support at the SP but it's not great. In fact, one of my ex-coworkers, a well-respected research scientist, volunteered as a technical support person there (https://davidpablocohn.com/ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBaQtsft2bM). But I think he mostly helped people fix laptops.

Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by throwa_way_ on Thursday July 12, 2018 @07:34PM (#17519482)
>it's hard to cool servers there because the air is really dry

Not sure how this could be the case. Dry air has higher thermal conductivity than moist air.

Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by bacon_waffle on Friday July 13, 2018 @02:02AM (#17520825)
The heat capacity of dry air is lower though, which I suspect is more important than the conductivity. Lower pressure also lowers heat capacity; you'll see a lot of electronics equipment with a specified maximum operating altitude of 10,000 feet for that reason. Incidentally, South Pole is around the same elevation, with local weather conditions varying the pressure over that range at times...

The bigger problems with keeping ICL (the IceCube Lab - where the computers on top of the detector live, also the biggest datacenter on the continent) are somewhat more mundane though:

* If memory serves, there's one air handler that brings in outside air. Like anything else, it occasionally breaks or needs maintenance, sometimes in the middle of winter.

* Anything that has to operate in outside-ish conditions there, like the air intake for example, needs to be simple and robust. I think that early on in ICL's life, they had problems with frost clogging up the intake louvers, but that was before my time with the project.

* South Pole Station gets Cold, and so you need to be careful with mixing a little bit of outside air with much warmer inside air, to keep the heat evenly distributed and temperature from fluctuating too much.

* The station's HVAC is controlled by a DDC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_digital_control) system, which is reputedly a pain to work on, and sometimes people get ideas about ways to improve it, which of course leads to new and interesting quirks in the system...

edit: formatting

Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by jws on Thursday July 12, 2018 @07:41PM (#17519525)
Dry air also increases the probability of static damage. They probably can't use outside air exchange to cool the server room.

I imagine just circulating your nice toasty air into a larger area filled with moist humans who want to be warmer would work, but it depends on your building layout.

Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by 8bitsrule on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:10PM (#17520229)
Static damage? Where I was raised, winter temps regularly reached -40. That cold, outside air already had most of the moisture 'wrung out of it'. Now let that cold dry air into the house and warm it: the relative humidity plummets.

Now walk across a carpet in leather-soled shoes. Do NOT even touch metal doorknobs, let alone metal faucets!

Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by aaronbrethorst on Friday July 13, 2018 @03:25AM (#17521099)
A favorite game of my siblings and I during the winter growing up in Minnesota was to shuffle across the floor and then poke each other.
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by aplc0r on Friday July 13, 2018 @01:58PM (#17525170)
In the winter (in MN), I usually wake up to my dog shocking us nose-to-nose while he checks if I'm still sleeping.
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by aaronbrethorst on Friday July 13, 2018 @08:04PM (#17527860)
I'm kind of surprised he hasn't been trained out of this from the pain/surprise. Seems like sort of a shock collar effect.
Re:The IceCube Neutrino Detector at the South Pole Hits Paydirt by dekhn on Thursday July 12, 2018 @08:00PM (#17519592)
There's a good article here: https://arstechnica.com/features/2012/04/coolest-jobs-in-tec... and a video here http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2010/07/23/the-d... but you're right, it doesn't mention the reason I give (and says now they do import some external cold air).