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Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by aalleavitch on Thursday July 12, 2018 @09:53AM (#17514542)
We’re dumb in comparison to the systems we’ve created. Increasingly, the disparity between what our technology is capable of and our own limitations as animals will become a pressing issue.

One thing that always bothers me is how we have this myth of personal responsibility that supposes an individual is equipped to defend their own interests against a multinational corporation on their own.

“Well I just don’t get why the baby didn’t defend itself from the bear.”

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by barrkel on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:59AM (#17515263)
And many of our problems are collective action problems: where it makes sense for individuals to defect on their own, and they can only raise the standard for the group if they act together.

At different scales this means unionization and professional organizations, government regulation, and international regulation, to prevent whole countries from defecting - this is in large part what the EU is about, and a significant source of UK ill will towards it; and also generally what makes nationalists upset at globalists.

Collective action problems require collective action solutions. Large actors, however, tend to dislike collective action because it reduces their scale advantage.

Collective action has its own problem: power structures encourage corruption and misuse of the pooled power. Overall, I suspect government and international systems are more likely to be less corrupt because they can afford to build more checks and balances into their institutions, but the distance from the people decreases their perceived legitimacy.

Not an easy circle to square.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by gascan on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:20AM (#17515465)
As I see it, the corruption challenge of collective action is because it is so often not carefully, purposefully structured. Government is constructed with the express purpose of checking power.

I read a bit I liked a while back about early feminism, in which members rejected wholesale the idea of power structures & authority, and established no authority. The author relates, however, that the power vacuum was naturally still filled- but because everyone wanted to pretend there was no power structure, the one that developed was unusually cruel & unaccountable.

I liked the bit because to me it seems like the strongest argument for official government- if the power vacuum must always be filled, let us be deliberate in how we fill it.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by notabee on Thursday July 12, 2018 @01:01PM (#17516519)
I agree. As imperfect and corrupt as it is, democratic representation in government has taken a very long time to develop out of previous eras of might makes right. People who advocate for permanent dismantling of government instead of rebuilding it seem severely naive to believe that doing so won't devolve into violent contests between local armed powers.

Another very big factor in having a properly accountable government is reducing information asymmetry as much as possible. Democracy doesn't work well if education is crippled, and there's been a serious decline in the quality and breadth of education in the U.S. (I can't speak to other countries, but I hear of decline elsewhere as well) It sounds a little conspiratorial, but I don't believe the massive student debt loads and the disparagement of fields of study such as philosophy, which prompts critical authority-challenging questions, are accidents. It is my opinion that the upheaval of the 60's scared major U.S. powers and they took steps to nullify student activism.

People in general are very disengaged, apathetic, and distracted. Much of the corruption in government, media, and business could be countered effectively by a population that knows how to inform itself. Instead we seem to be sinking, like Rome did, into corruption, ignorance, and widespread superstition.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by dbingham on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:44PM (#17516357)
As someone who's participated in many organizations and movements that were purposefully against power structures and authority, I can tell you that it can go either way.

I've seen it work, where people found ways to fluidly hold each other accountable and natural leaders gently stepped into the power vacuums with out any kind of formalized authority. And I've seen it fail catastrophically in a myriad of ways. It really comes down to the people who are involved, and how intentionally they approach the organizational problem.

I've also seen larger scale organizations that intentionally attacked this problem and created formalized structures that were built to minimize concentrated power and instead keep it distributed. It was essentially a formalization of the first case where the no-authority / structure model worked.

So it's doable. You can have collective action with out concentrated power and hierarchy. It just takes intention and strong (but compassionate) social accountability.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by dv_dt on Friday July 13, 2018 @11:34AM (#17523786)
Are there examples or reading you might be able to give regarding this? I'm interested!
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by watwut on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:02PM (#17515879)
Dunno about feminism, but I definitely observed the same on agile projects that rejected concept of formal leader and management.

Let's see who naturally arises as a leader style also leads to special kind of hell.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by mhneu on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:22PM (#17516082)
This is why representative democracies and rule of law are so important.

It's important to make governments that are "about laws - not about men". Because if governments are built around single people, those people will concentrate power. When a system leads to the person in power hands off power to the next person, it's a way to distribute power.

The second principle that is a huge problem today is concentration of power into the hands of the wealthy. Thomas Piketty put his finger on the problem - in the 1970s, most obviously in the US, billionaires began to figure out how to use their wealth for persuasion. In that way they use their wealth to take more of the profits in the economy for themselves.

I think this is the problem of our time: How do we stop oligarchs and billionaires from funding a propaganda machine designed to break democracies so they can accumulate more wealth?

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by XFrequentist on Thursday July 12, 2018 @01:42PM (#17516905)
>I read a bit I liked a while back about early feminism...

Link (and second recommendation) for the curious:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyranny_of_Structurelessne...

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by rcy on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:02PM (#17515882)
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by sandworm101 on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:06AM (#17515332)
It also means laws/regulations to just plain ban harmful behaviors. Collectivization to alter market forces cannot fix everything. Some things need to just stop. Selling CFCs needs to stop. That won't happen by naming and shaming involved companies. It won't happen by people gathering on facebook to organize a boycott. It happens by people in uniforms enforcing the law, with violence when necessary. Sometimes that is the only way to stop individuals bent on illegally benefiting themselves at the expense of others.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by bilbo0s on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:31AM (#17515574)
"...Sometimes that is the only way to stop individuals bent on illegally benefiting themselves at the expense of others...."

Not just "sometimes", it takes the threat of violent people in uniforms ALL of the time when dealing with people bent on illegally benefiting themselves at the expense of others.

The issue is that the violent people in uniforms, (and even the people controlling them for that matter), can ALSO be bent on benefiting themselves at the expense of others.

It's not only grassroots organizations that can be corrupt, the government itself is actually even more likely to be corrupt. So you almost have to solve corruption before you try to solve the other structural issues. And corruption is just a very hard problem to solve.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by mhneu on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:24PM (#17516103)
Cory Doctorow has recently written an interesting piece on corruption: https://boingboing.net/2018/07/02/low-yield-crude.html

It talks about how socializing risk and privatizing profits is actually the definition of corruption.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by mhb on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:15AM (#17515430)
Well it takes collective action to decide what to ban.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by sandworm101 on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:26AM (#17515534)
>> collective action to decide

No. Once upon a time we nominated experts to make most of those decisions. Groups like the EPA or the IRS were given a mandate to examine what was going on and ban behaviors that did harm. But today "regulation" is a bad word. Everything is political. The EPA and IRS cannot ban anything without massive public debate. In fact, most regulatory bodies are so under pressure to reduce any and all regulation that they rarely ever ban anything. Quick and efficient regulation of harmful behavior is dead.

Example: the recent bill to ban upskirting photography in the UK. Nothing much to debate. But the bill gets killed by the new breed of politicians who demand every new regulation be subject to the full public process in order to make the act of passing new regulations as difficult as possible.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by aalleavitch on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:18PM (#17516042)
What we lack is trust. We lack security in each other, in many cases for entirely legitimate reasons. Reestablishing systems of trust is one of the challenges we’re facing right now.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by Nasrudith on Friday July 13, 2018 @09:03AM (#17522557)
Reminds me of the one common Freudian slip I notice in the wake of a scandal. If they talk of restoring trust as a goal they are so irredeemably corrupt they see only the bad PR as a problem and not the heinous abuses. Since trying to fix the problem doesn't even come to mind to them as something to lie about when they are in hot water!
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by s73v3r_ on Thursday July 12, 2018 @01:18PM (#17516685)
In general I probably agree with you. But I seriously can not comprehend how that applies to the example given in the parent post.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by smolder on Thursday July 12, 2018 @05:46PM (#17518901)
I'll take a stab. People don't trust their government or their justice system to fairly enforce the law or to draft a law that, all legalese deconstructed, is fair in the first place.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by bluGill on Thursday July 12, 2018 @02:43PM (#17517445)
On your example: are you sure there is nothing to debate? No possible harm? No possible unintended consequence?

One thing I've observed over and over is that there are unintended consequences to everything. It often takes years to figure them out.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by User23 on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:30AM (#17515562)
Thank you for this lucid description of the authoritarian position.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by dang on Friday July 13, 2018 @01:28AM (#17520715)
Would you please not post ideological battle comments to HN? They're not what this site is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by fucking_tragedy on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:54AM (#17515792)
Viewing regulation as authoritarianism is an extremist position.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by Nursie on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:50AM (#17515756)
In the case of individual or small group actions that have the capability to seriously fuck things up for everyone else, what other position is rational?
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by User23 on Thursday July 12, 2018 @07:47PM (#17519549)
Local control of communities and migration to an amenable community for your desires instead of trying to force your preferences on others with the barrel of a gun.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by Nursie on Friday July 13, 2018 @05:12AM (#17521515)
There is no such thing as 'local' when we are talking about CFC production.

Try again.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by User23 on Thursday July 12, 2018 @07:45PM (#17519539)
Why was this flagged? Men using violence to enforce a preferred policy is exactly authoritarian. A simple factual description is in no way pejorative.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by jeffdavis on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:25AM (#17515525)
"Collective action has its own problem: power structures encourage corruption and misuse of the pooled power."

Exactly. I tend to be wary of concentrating power. The larger the group the more likely that there are conflicts of interest within the group.

Perhaps more importantly, large groups just don't make sense in a lot of cases. If I make a union of milk drinkers, we can buy in huge bulk and get a discount. But then we have 1000000 bottles of milk in one place that will go bad in a couple weeks. We need to invent a distribution network, and a way to figure out who actually needs milk and when, and a way to track who is drinking the most milk so they can pay higher dues. In other words, the union hasn't accomplished anything and basically everything will be the same.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by dv_dt on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:34AM (#17515599)
But as a criticism against the already collected power of corporations and oligarchs that wariness just means individuals stay unfocused and weak vs concentrated and powerful interests.

The broad correlation (and correlation isn't necessarily causation) is that as union power decreased, so did real wage growth.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by mcguire on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:30PM (#17520310)
Short version: power vacuums get filled.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by Retric on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:22PM (#17516088)
It simply means groups need to adapt to the realities on the ground. Your 1,000,000 milk drinkers may be better off measuring existing players vs buying milk collectively.

Dealing with information asymmetry not distribution can result in better outcomes without expending nearly as many resources.

PS: Consumer reports is a solid example. Collecting a lot of information on each toaster/fridge/bed is not practical for an individual, but split that among 1,000,000 people and each can save more money than the cost of a subscription.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by s73v3r_ on Thursday July 12, 2018 @01:15PM (#17516656)
At the same time, you can also fight back against companies that would seek to cut corners with milk production.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by alexmat on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:02AM (#17514651)
Hear hear, the agricultural revolution has trapped us in a Faustian bargain!

"The currency of evolution is neither hunger nor pain, but rather copies of DNA helixes. Just as the economic success of a company is measured only by the number of dollars in its bank account, not by the happiness of its employees, so the evolutionary success of a species is measured by the number of copies of its DNA. If no more DNA copies remain, the species is extinct, just as a company without money is bankrupt. If a species boasts many DNA copies, it is a success, and the species flourishes. From such a perspective, 1,000 copies are always better than a hundred copies. This is the essence of the Agricultural Revolution: the ability to keep more people alive under worse conditions."[1]

[1] https://erenow.com/common/sapiensbriefhistory/20.html

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by cafard on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:38AM (#17515018)
There is something curious about posters on a techie site lauding the superiority of the hunter-gatherer life.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by alexmat on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:45AM (#17515101)
It may not be obvious from the context and the limited excerpt, but in the book Sapiens, the author is careful to make the point that this is not an invitation to revert to the hunter/gatherer lifestyle, in fact, we're past the point where that's a possibility. Rather we have to innovate our way out of the predicament we find ourselves in (the irony of fighting fire with fire is not lost on me). But in my mind, it makes this a perfect quote to consider on a techie site.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by notabee on Thursday July 12, 2018 @01:53PM (#17517006)
The people immersed in technology should also be the ones to best understand both its potential and its limitations. Anyone who has dealt with the unpredictability and pitfalls in maintaining human-created complex software systems should also easily intuit our limits in understanding or controlling other even more complex systems such as the planet's biosphere.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by aalleavitch on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:22PM (#17516090)
Technology is often the solution to technology.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by TeMPOraL on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:08AM (#17515368)
What's so curious about it? I'd expect an average techie to be able to think about this topic on their own and comprehend various perspectives.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by s-shellfish on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:55AM (#17515226)
I imagine a lot of them are starting to have families. What resonates in background information provides a foundational structure, and often establishes direction in opinion.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by danharaj on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:07AM (#17514704)
# of copies of DNA is just a proxy for probability of propagation.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by Radim on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:45AM (#17515098)
Probability of propagation is just a proxy for consuming energy gradients more efficiently.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by darkmighty on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:53AM (#17515787)
Life can be material-constrained instead of energy-constrained (I know there's E=mc^2, but this may not be technologically feasible hence irrelevant). Environmental domination is more fundamental than energy source tapping imo (you can imagine life in systems that don't even have precise energy analogues, like conway's game of life) -- that is, dominating whatever the basic resources are (space, materials, energy, etc).
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by arturh on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:37AM (#17515010)
The gene is the unit of selection.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by folli on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:44AM (#17515095)
The current fashion is subgenes (domains): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3258039/
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by phkahler on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:10AM (#17515390)
No, the collection of genes is. There are exactly zero individual genes roaming around replicating in isolation.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by marcosdumay on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:45AM (#17515710)
Sexual reproduction uncorrelates the selective pressures over each gene, and each small set of them (with larger sets being possible the larger a population the species has).

The gene is the unit of selection is perfectly right. It's missing a finer point in that groups of genes are unities of selection too, but it's correct.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by rjbwork on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:57AM (#17515819)
Not according to modern understandings of gene theory. The Selfish Gene by Dawkins is perhaps the seminal work on this topic for the popular audience.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by lisper on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:48AM (#17515734)
This is a common misconception. The collection is the unit of replication, but the gene is nonetheless the unit of selection. This argument was laid out in excruciating detail by Dawkins, but the TL;DR is that reproductive fitness can only ever be measured relative to some environment, and all the other genes in a replicative unit are (part of) the environment for a gene and its alleles.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by phkahler on Saturday July 14, 2018 @09:35AM (#17530279)
Collection, chromosome, Gene, base pair. Selection happens at all these levels.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by lisper on Saturday July 14, 2018 @11:46AM (#17530768)
Nope. Selection can only happen at the level of something that has an effect on the phenotype. That's the definition of a gene.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by danharaj on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:13AM (#17515407)
Actually, it's chemical enviromments.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by folli on Friday July 13, 2018 @03:53AM (#17521196)
How does a chemical environment replicate and mutate?
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by 52-6F-62 on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:11AM (#17514758)
With you 100% on this one.

Your last illustration there reminds me a little of this:

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/08/627082032/1-year-old-shows-up...

>>>

His name is Johan.

He drank a bottle of milk and played with a purple ball as he waited for the immigration judge, The Associated Press reported.

John W. Richardson, the judge at the Phoenix courthouse, said he was "embarrassed to ask" if the defendant understood the proceedings. "I don't know who you would explain it to, unless you think that a 1-year-old could learn immigration law," he told Johan's attorney.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by Spooky23 on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:30AM (#17514954)
That’s isn’t a matter of smart vs dumb. That is a farcical process subverting the judiciary to abuse someone’s rights.

If the judge had integrity he would resign or be disbarred.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by maym86 on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:46AM (#17515114)
> That’s isn’t a matter of smart vs dumb.

It was a reference to the quote above which is saying the reason individual people loose is not because they are dumb but because they are unable to match their opponents resources.

> “Well I just don’t get why the baby didn’t defend itself from the bear."

How can individuals defend themselves when the system and corporations subvert their rights.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by wang_li on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:52AM (#17515196)
A complicating factor here is that when a child is separated from their parents and put into foster care a guardian ad litem can be assigned who have been known to argue that it's in the best interests of the child to remain in the US regardless of whether the parents have been returned to their country of origin.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by s73v3r_ on Thursday July 12, 2018 @01:19PM (#17516694)
Or just not allow such proceedings to happen.
[deleted]
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by Spooky23 on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:42AM (#17515060)
He is asking an infant who is incapable of speech whether he understands legal rights.

That’s an insult to the concept of justice.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by jrs235 on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:40AM (#17515669)
>That’s an insult to the concept of justice.

Agreed. Unfortunately our justice system has been turned into a legal system. Legalities are more important than justice and it's sickening.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by ink_13 on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:51AM (#17515757)
What?

"It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is."

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by RugnirViking on Friday July 13, 2018 @04:58AM (#17521463)
Just because it is supposed to be their duty does not mean that they are actually performing that duty with any regularity.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by nkrisc on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:04AM (#17514674)
I like to remind people that it's not "you versus AT&T" it's "you versus a quarter million experts in their respective domains."

I would expect any average individual to lose against AT&T in whatever their issue is unless AT&T willingly concedes to them.

Picking on AT&T for no particular reason.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by pjmorris on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:35AM (#17515003)
I once spent nine months in what seemed like a losing battle with AT&T for them to correctly account for two checks I wrote that they credited to my old phone number rather than my new phone number. I had to write a letter to my state's Public Service Commission before I could get the attention of AT&T's executive office and get their collections department off of my back.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by salawat on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:17AM (#17515439)
This is why corporations need to remain small.

The inefficiencies are what make the system A)navigable, and B) work.

When you have humans trying to run something that no human can fully mentally represent without significant investment in external memory aids, you have a recipe for disaster, because one bad move by a large actor propagates far better than the same move by a smaller actor.

Real life analogy: Your kid trips.<-Less severe YOU TRIP.<-More severe

Hyperbolic analogy: Jack trips Giant trips

Which has worse consequences?

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by athenot on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:29AM (#17514942)
That's an intersting point. Perhaps things would be more level if a conflict between an individual would be settled by selecting one RANDOM employee from that company (not the super ninja expert in the narrow field at hand), and have them battle it out in a lower court / arbitration.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by PurpleBoxDragon on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:16AM (#17515435)
No, just do like you do with children who sign contracts, invalidate any obligations the child has to the adult, but the adult is still bound to any obligations they have, and punish the adult for trying to take advantage of the child.

Ideally, the ability for individuals to sign contracts with corporations should be forbidden. Maybe a single 1 person corporation that doesn't involve a lawyer either direct or as a contractor.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by marcosdumay on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:51AM (#17515759)
I don't think the world could function without contracts.

I get into a restaurant, I order some food. That's a contract where I get into the obligation of paying, and they get into the obligation of serving the food.

It's much more likely that the justice system needs a complete rework.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by PurpleBoxDragon on Thursday July 12, 2018 @02:10PM (#17517148)
You would still have contracts, they would be limited to being between people of similar power, and a lot stronger protections for someone being taken advantage of.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by Nasrudith on Friday July 13, 2018 @09:38AM (#17522846)
That would work only slightly better than the top level salary cap being the lowest salary - dodged via a nesting doll of layered corporations as contractors or using actual ones. In that case they would have a top level entity with C-levels and elite lawyers which just so happens to own the rights and assume legal responsibility for the lower corporation.

In which case just save everyone the hassle and pass a law requiring proportionality to the degree of defined max lawyers per lawsuit of size defined in some workable metric so it doesn't take decades just to go through every mortgage in a AAA bank with solo lawyers on each side. It would limit the use of lawyer armies but it may lose a constitutional challenge on grounds of right to petition the government for redress.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by noonespecial on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:59AM (#17515851)
Its worse. The baby doesn't even know that its supposed to be afraid of the bear.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by api on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:50AM (#17515168)
It's not just technology per se. We are dumb when it comes to understanding the behavior of any complex system with lots of emergent properties and feedback loops. I doubt the Roman Empire was understandable by its leaders either.

We are also fairly dumb when it comes to understanding things like ecosystems, genetic regulatory networks, the climate, the brain, etc. Those are all systems that have similar properties.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by s-shellfish on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:16AM (#17514821)
I think lots of people have been aware for a long time that there's a big gap between the individual understanding of what we can perceive machines (and institutions, philosophies based on their mechanical functioning) can do, versus what they do do.

It's just when you are caught up in it, you can't afford to think about it. You have to both be a part of it and not allow the responsibility of knowing you influence the system - therefore don't have the capacity to reason about the consequences of every single action - crush you.

It's more like you are the bear and you are trying to take care of a baby. There's the idea that you are just this tiny, little singular organism in comparison to the whole, but you aren't. Everything we do has consequences, everything we do directs systems. If you think some things you do just don't matter, you are missing some perspective.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by amorphid on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:11AM (#17515393)
> We’re dumb in comparison to the systems we’ve created.

I prefer not to think like that. I'd say we're doing our best to navigate hard problems, and it's not yet clear how to do things more effectively. Worst case scenario we're acting dumb, and I'd argue that is kind of a useless statement. We're acting, and we can do better, so put some time into working on doing better.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by peacetreefrog on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:12PM (#17515990)
"One thing that always bothers me is how we have this myth of personal responsibility that supposes an individual is equipped to defend their own interests against a multinational corporation on their own."

1. Our wiring isn't perfect, but who is better equipped to defend a person's interests than the individual themself? Serious question.

2. I don't think the "power" and coerciveness of multinational corporations is anywhere near that of government, which people bashing corporations usually want to make larger and more powerful. As Diedre McCloskey says, what happens if you are morally opposed to some new fighter jet or corporate subsidy, and unilaterally decide to pay fewer taxes because of it? The answer is you go jail. What happens if you choose Samsung or an Iphone? Nothing.

3. It's not like there is just one monolithic corporation. There are many, and they have various interests, capabilities and incentives. Usually they're competing with each other. Further, in time, many corporations correctly view these irrationalities as market opportunities and actively work on helping consumers combat them. E.g. see Acorns, Wealthfront, or hundreds of apps that help people use their phones less.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by notabee on Thursday July 12, 2018 @02:08PM (#17517133)
No one has the time, energy, or capacity to become expert in all domains within a complex civilization that could materially affect them. You are confusing "better equipped" with "having the most substantial interest". A person has the most substantial interest in their own safety and benefit, but that in no way implies that they will be the best equipped to attain that in all cases, or even understand how to. By all means, that person should seek out such knowledge, but it will never be as comprehensive as the accumulated wisdom of experts, or even compete with a motivated group of non-experts. You can advocate for personal agency and also still realize that a person standing alone is likely to get screwed over.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by enraged_camel on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:19PM (#17516052)
>>Our hardware isn't perfect, but who is better equipped to defend your own interests than the individual?

Organizations who have similar levels of resources and expertise as those who are infringing upon the individual’s interests, obviously. Otherwise it ends up being a David vs Goliath situation.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by s73v3r_ on Thursday July 12, 2018 @01:31PM (#17516802)
"1. Our wiring isn't perfect, but who is better equipped to defend a person's interests than the individual themself? Serious question."

Someone who actually knows something about the topic in question? It is highly in the interests of any person to have both a plentiful and safe food supply, and safe, breathable air and safe, drinkable water. Pesticides constantly straddle this line; how much pollution is acceptable for food production, but still leaving the air and water safe? Do you honestly expect any random person to be able to make the correct choice in that situation? No. That's why we have experts in that field which study the effects of these chemicals, and the impact they have on the environment, and come to the conclusion of what's safe or not.

Another similar issue: One's actions do not exist in a vacuum. There's a recent story of some farmers spraying a certain herbicide to protect their crops from pigweed. However, not every farmer in the area is using it, or the herbicide resistant crops. The thing about spraying is that it goes in the air, and tends not to recognize property lines. The herbicide kills the crops on the neighboring farms. So while the original farmer who sprayed acted in their individual interest, they most definitely did not act in the interest of society in general, and clearly not in the interest of their neighbors.

"I don't think the "power" and coerciveness of multinational corporations is anywhere near that of government, which people bashing corporations usually want to make larger and more powerful."

No, we just want government to actually act in people's interests.

"As Diedre McCloskey says, what happens if you are morally opposed to some new fighter jet or corporate subsidy, and unilaterally decide to pay fewer taxes because of it? The answer is you go jail."

Yes, you broke the law, and so you must face the consequences. And unless you're Al Capone, you're not going to jail. Please stop parroting this ridiculous argument.

"What happens if you choose Samsung or an Iphone? "

What happens if you stop paying the balance on your Samsung phone because you switched?

"Further, in time, many corporations correctly view these irrationalities as market opportunities and actively work on helping consumers combat them."

I have huge doubts that many of them do this, and I have huge doubts that they are effective in this.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by Nasrudith on Friday July 13, 2018 @09:54AM (#17522985)
Corporations and governments are both capable of screwing you over in different ways and often overlap. Corporations made the arms that shot the students of Kent State University and the government failed to protect people poisoned by pollution of Superfund sites. Hold them both accountable or they will be used by nefarious entities in the other as enablers for a workaround.

That said persistently refusing like many conscientious objectors will land you in jail though. It isn't a ridiculous argument but the literal truth. It also isn't a very effective tactic of protest but more a matter of fanaticism of principle.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by olef_ on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:41AM (#17515053)
Execs of MNCs can be "nudged" too to do the right thing. That finding is one of reasons Thaler deserves his Nobel. Read his book.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by dredmorbius on Thursday July 12, 2018 @03:20PM (#17517747)
MNCs?
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by splendidtube on Thursday July 12, 2018 @06:19PM (#17519084)
Multinational corporations
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by andrei_says_ on Friday July 13, 2018 @01:14AM (#17520667)
Placing refugee children as young as one in front of immigration courts, in seriousness, speaks volumes to this.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by walterstucco on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:22AM (#17515489)
Are you sure that is the disparity between what our technology is capable of and our own limitations as animals and not our perception of it?

My grandparents lived most of their life under the menace of a nuclear holocaust, but when they were born the electric power system was still in infancy and they had no electricity whatsoever in their house.

Going back centuries, the Ishtar Gate was built so that people arriving to Babilonia would be scared

I think that we are more scared by what we don't know that by what we can't manage

The world IS hard, but we're also very dumb

We know smoking gives cancer, but we still smoke anyway.

We know cars pollute the environment, but we ride them anyway.

etc. etc. etc.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by cubano on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:04AM (#17514673)
Yet people have done and are doing it on a daily basis.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by TeMPOraL on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:13AM (#17514794)
Do they now? Or are they just successful in areas where the corporation does not care, or even notice?

To paraphrase Eliezer's famous quote about AI - the Corporation does not hate you, nor does it love you; you're just a potential revenue source, and as long as it believes you'll net it something, it'll let you have your way.