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Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by barrkel on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:59AM (#17515263)
And many of our problems are collective action problems: where it makes sense for individuals to defect on their own, and they can only raise the standard for the group if they act together.

At different scales this means unionization and professional organizations, government regulation, and international regulation, to prevent whole countries from defecting - this is in large part what the EU is about, and a significant source of UK ill will towards it; and also generally what makes nationalists upset at globalists.

Collective action problems require collective action solutions. Large actors, however, tend to dislike collective action because it reduces their scale advantage.

Collective action has its own problem: power structures encourage corruption and misuse of the pooled power. Overall, I suspect government and international systems are more likely to be less corrupt because they can afford to build more checks and balances into their institutions, but the distance from the people decreases their perceived legitimacy.

Not an easy circle to square.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by gascan on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:20AM (#17515465)
As I see it, the corruption challenge of collective action is because it is so often not carefully, purposefully structured. Government is constructed with the express purpose of checking power.

I read a bit I liked a while back about early feminism, in which members rejected wholesale the idea of power structures & authority, and established no authority. The author relates, however, that the power vacuum was naturally still filled- but because everyone wanted to pretend there was no power structure, the one that developed was unusually cruel & unaccountable.

I liked the bit because to me it seems like the strongest argument for official government- if the power vacuum must always be filled, let us be deliberate in how we fill it.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by notabee on Thursday July 12, 2018 @01:01PM (#17516519)
I agree. As imperfect and corrupt as it is, democratic representation in government has taken a very long time to develop out of previous eras of might makes right. People who advocate for permanent dismantling of government instead of rebuilding it seem severely naive to believe that doing so won't devolve into violent contests between local armed powers.

Another very big factor in having a properly accountable government is reducing information asymmetry as much as possible. Democracy doesn't work well if education is crippled, and there's been a serious decline in the quality and breadth of education in the U.S. (I can't speak to other countries, but I hear of decline elsewhere as well) It sounds a little conspiratorial, but I don't believe the massive student debt loads and the disparagement of fields of study such as philosophy, which prompts critical authority-challenging questions, are accidents. It is my opinion that the upheaval of the 60's scared major U.S. powers and they took steps to nullify student activism.

People in general are very disengaged, apathetic, and distracted. Much of the corruption in government, media, and business could be countered effectively by a population that knows how to inform itself. Instead we seem to be sinking, like Rome did, into corruption, ignorance, and widespread superstition.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by dbingham on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:44PM (#17516357)
As someone who's participated in many organizations and movements that were purposefully against power structures and authority, I can tell you that it can go either way.

I've seen it work, where people found ways to fluidly hold each other accountable and natural leaders gently stepped into the power vacuums with out any kind of formalized authority. And I've seen it fail catastrophically in a myriad of ways. It really comes down to the people who are involved, and how intentionally they approach the organizational problem.

I've also seen larger scale organizations that intentionally attacked this problem and created formalized structures that were built to minimize concentrated power and instead keep it distributed. It was essentially a formalization of the first case where the no-authority / structure model worked.

So it's doable. You can have collective action with out concentrated power and hierarchy. It just takes intention and strong (but compassionate) social accountability.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by dv_dt on Friday July 13, 2018 @11:34AM (#17523786)
Are there examples or reading you might be able to give regarding this? I'm interested!
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by watwut on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:02PM (#17515879)
Dunno about feminism, but I definitely observed the same on agile projects that rejected concept of formal leader and management.

Let's see who naturally arises as a leader style also leads to special kind of hell.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by mhneu on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:22PM (#17516082)
This is why representative democracies and rule of law are so important.

It's important to make governments that are "about laws - not about men". Because if governments are built around single people, those people will concentrate power. When a system leads to the person in power hands off power to the next person, it's a way to distribute power.

The second principle that is a huge problem today is concentration of power into the hands of the wealthy. Thomas Piketty put his finger on the problem - in the 1970s, most obviously in the US, billionaires began to figure out how to use their wealth for persuasion. In that way they use their wealth to take more of the profits in the economy for themselves.

I think this is the problem of our time: How do we stop oligarchs and billionaires from funding a propaganda machine designed to break democracies so they can accumulate more wealth?

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by XFrequentist on Thursday July 12, 2018 @01:42PM (#17516905)
>I read a bit I liked a while back about early feminism...

Link (and second recommendation) for the curious:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyranny_of_Structurelessne...

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by rcy on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:02PM (#17515882)
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by sandworm101 on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:06AM (#17515332)
It also means laws/regulations to just plain ban harmful behaviors. Collectivization to alter market forces cannot fix everything. Some things need to just stop. Selling CFCs needs to stop. That won't happen by naming and shaming involved companies. It won't happen by people gathering on facebook to organize a boycott. It happens by people in uniforms enforcing the law, with violence when necessary. Sometimes that is the only way to stop individuals bent on illegally benefiting themselves at the expense of others.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by bilbo0s on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:31AM (#17515574)
"...Sometimes that is the only way to stop individuals bent on illegally benefiting themselves at the expense of others...."

Not just "sometimes", it takes the threat of violent people in uniforms ALL of the time when dealing with people bent on illegally benefiting themselves at the expense of others.

The issue is that the violent people in uniforms, (and even the people controlling them for that matter), can ALSO be bent on benefiting themselves at the expense of others.

It's not only grassroots organizations that can be corrupt, the government itself is actually even more likely to be corrupt. So you almost have to solve corruption before you try to solve the other structural issues. And corruption is just a very hard problem to solve.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by mhneu on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:24PM (#17516103)
Cory Doctorow has recently written an interesting piece on corruption: https://boingboing.net/2018/07/02/low-yield-crude.html

It talks about how socializing risk and privatizing profits is actually the definition of corruption.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by mhb on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:15AM (#17515430)
Well it takes collective action to decide what to ban.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by sandworm101 on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:26AM (#17515534)
>> collective action to decide

No. Once upon a time we nominated experts to make most of those decisions. Groups like the EPA or the IRS were given a mandate to examine what was going on and ban behaviors that did harm. But today "regulation" is a bad word. Everything is political. The EPA and IRS cannot ban anything without massive public debate. In fact, most regulatory bodies are so under pressure to reduce any and all regulation that they rarely ever ban anything. Quick and efficient regulation of harmful behavior is dead.

Example: the recent bill to ban upskirting photography in the UK. Nothing much to debate. But the bill gets killed by the new breed of politicians who demand every new regulation be subject to the full public process in order to make the act of passing new regulations as difficult as possible.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by aalleavitch on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:18PM (#17516042)
What we lack is trust. We lack security in each other, in many cases for entirely legitimate reasons. Reestablishing systems of trust is one of the challenges we’re facing right now.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by Nasrudith on Friday July 13, 2018 @09:03AM (#17522557)
Reminds me of the one common Freudian slip I notice in the wake of a scandal. If they talk of restoring trust as a goal they are so irredeemably corrupt they see only the bad PR as a problem and not the heinous abuses. Since trying to fix the problem doesn't even come to mind to them as something to lie about when they are in hot water!
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by s73v3r_ on Thursday July 12, 2018 @01:18PM (#17516685)
In general I probably agree with you. But I seriously can not comprehend how that applies to the example given in the parent post.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by smolder on Thursday July 12, 2018 @05:46PM (#17518901)
I'll take a stab. People don't trust their government or their justice system to fairly enforce the law or to draft a law that, all legalese deconstructed, is fair in the first place.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by bluGill on Thursday July 12, 2018 @02:43PM (#17517445)
On your example: are you sure there is nothing to debate? No possible harm? No possible unintended consequence?

One thing I've observed over and over is that there are unintended consequences to everything. It often takes years to figure them out.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by User23 on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:30AM (#17515562)
Thank you for this lucid description of the authoritarian position.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by dang on Friday July 13, 2018 @01:28AM (#17520715)
Would you please not post ideological battle comments to HN? They're not what this site is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by fucking_tragedy on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:54AM (#17515792)
Viewing regulation as authoritarianism is an extremist position.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by Nursie on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:50AM (#17515756)
In the case of individual or small group actions that have the capability to seriously fuck things up for everyone else, what other position is rational?
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by User23 on Thursday July 12, 2018 @07:47PM (#17519549)
Local control of communities and migration to an amenable community for your desires instead of trying to force your preferences on others with the barrel of a gun.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by Nursie on Friday July 13, 2018 @05:12AM (#17521515)
There is no such thing as 'local' when we are talking about CFC production.

Try again.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by User23 on Thursday July 12, 2018 @07:45PM (#17519539)
Why was this flagged? Men using violence to enforce a preferred policy is exactly authoritarian. A simple factual description is in no way pejorative.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by jeffdavis on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:25AM (#17515525)
"Collective action has its own problem: power structures encourage corruption and misuse of the pooled power."

Exactly. I tend to be wary of concentrating power. The larger the group the more likely that there are conflicts of interest within the group.

Perhaps more importantly, large groups just don't make sense in a lot of cases. If I make a union of milk drinkers, we can buy in huge bulk and get a discount. But then we have 1000000 bottles of milk in one place that will go bad in a couple weeks. We need to invent a distribution network, and a way to figure out who actually needs milk and when, and a way to track who is drinking the most milk so they can pay higher dues. In other words, the union hasn't accomplished anything and basically everything will be the same.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by dv_dt on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:34AM (#17515599)
But as a criticism against the already collected power of corporations and oligarchs that wariness just means individuals stay unfocused and weak vs concentrated and powerful interests.

The broad correlation (and correlation isn't necessarily causation) is that as union power decreased, so did real wage growth.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by mcguire on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:30PM (#17520310)
Short version: power vacuums get filled.
Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by Retric on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:22PM (#17516088)
It simply means groups need to adapt to the realities on the ground. Your 1,000,000 milk drinkers may be better off measuring existing players vs buying milk collectively.

Dealing with information asymmetry not distribution can result in better outcomes without expending nearly as many resources.

PS: Consumer reports is a solid example. Collecting a lot of information on each toaster/fridge/bed is not practical for an individual, but split that among 1,000,000 people and each can save more money than the cost of a subscription.

Re:People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard by s73v3r_ on Thursday July 12, 2018 @01:15PM (#17516656)
At the same time, you can also fight back against companies that would seek to cut corners with milk production.