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Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Sunday April 22, 2018 @11:56PM (#16900407)
My startup was approached by a corporate VC that wanted to make a strategic investment. Based on the attendee list from our meeting, which included very high up folks from the company, I felt good going in. They expressed interest in our technology that makes reading on screen easier [1], but they were surprised to learn that we didn't use machine learning to accomplish this.

I indicated that it was actually quite effective without ML, and that it was easier to explain to users this way. They kept prodding around on the ML stuff, and how we might be able to use ML to accomplish roughly the same thing.

A week later they said that they were no longer interested because, although they liked what our tech was able to accomplish, it didn't fit with their investment thesis — which was all about ML.

My wife asked me why I didn't just make some stuff up and say we could do v2 using ML. Perhaps she was right.

1: http://www.beelinereader.com/individual

update: in response to feedback below, I edited the link to point to a page with relevant content instead of our generic landing page. Lesson learned!

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by JepZ on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:55AM (#16901702)
That is just how larger corporations work.

They probably decided they wanted to be part of that future market about AI and therefore want to invest in AI/ML startups. Someone sold your company internally as being a nice fit for the AI portfolio, but when you answered the question about ML with "No" the door was shut.

From someone who makes large trade deals as his daily business, I learned "Never say 'No'" (during a negotiation). In most cases, it is better to be diplomatic. So might have been better off with something like:

'So far we had decent results without ML, but we are constantly evaluating options to improve our technology, which includes optimizations based on machine learning.'

That way, some might hear '[...] includes optimizations based on machine learning.', while you just said 'we do not use machine learning' ;-)

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by adriand on Monday April 23, 2018 @06:32AM (#16902121)
You should never mislead a potential investor. Why would you want an investor who is misaligned with your core technology/strategic direction?
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by JepZ on Monday April 23, 2018 @07:39AM (#16902473)
Well, nobody wants a misaligned investor. But I had the impression the negotiations already failed, because one buzzword could not be satisfied. My comment was meant more as advice to overcome such problematic situations during negotiations, than to mislead someone about what you are actually doing.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by carlmr on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:18AM (#16903571)
I remember every dishwasher and washing machine had "fuzzy logic" in the 90s (at least according to stickers). Just because it was the AI/ML/Deep Learning/Big Data/IoT of the time.

No, fuzzy logic won't make your washing machine better. Yes, you can implement some stuff in fuzzy logic.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by TallGuyShort on Monday April 23, 2018 @06:19PM (#16907995)
I don't remember this from the 90's very well, so I read the wikipedia page. I saw the following diagram and wondered how many washing machines and dishwasher's considered themselves to use fuzzy logic because they simply kept track of the temperature instead of just being in hot / cold states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic#/media/File:Fuzzy_....
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by logfromblammo on Monday April 23, 2018 @05:34PM (#16907641)
We wouldn't have this problem if civilization didn't continue to give so much money to the ID-10(t) class of investors.

Ideally, people that do nothing but tick off boxes in their mental buzzword checklists should not even be allowed to attend the pitches, and thereby waste other people's time by forcing them to hack around the unrepentant ignorance. But they that have the gold, make the rules.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by Traubenfuchs on Monday April 23, 2018 @07:11AM (#16902293)
$$$
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by purerandomness on Monday April 23, 2018 @09:40AM (#16903282)
How is this misleading?
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by giantsloth on Monday April 23, 2018 @08:35AM (#16902800)
This is a quaint sentiment, but marketing, sales, PR is all about misleading and creating unnecessary want. This is a major tenant of running a business and living under capitalism. There is also a moral argument for doing what you need to do in order to survive the difficulties of the market in order to survive it and change it into something more akin to your honest attitude about it.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by chongli on Monday April 23, 2018 @09:11AM (#16903077)
I think you'll find that a lot of stem people tend to lean Kantian in their ethics. This implies that misleading people for any reason -- even "for their own good" -- is frowned upon.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by EGreg on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:03PM (#16905829)
I am not sure the Categorical Imperative rules out misleading people for their own good. If a win win result is highly likely the categorical imperative says it’s OK if you do it because if the whole world did it, things would become better!
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by chongli on Monday April 23, 2018 @03:08PM (#16906435)
No, it's still using people as a means to an end. It's even wrong to lie to the murderer at the door. Kant himself addressed this in an essay titled: On The Supposed Right To Lie From Altruistic Motives[1].

[1] https://www.unc.edu/courses/2009spring/plcy/240/001/Kant.pdf

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gowld on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:10PM (#16906953)
Being Kantian doesn't mean being correct. It's not that hard to disagree with Kant's extreme hypothetical.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by EGreg on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:05PM (#16906907)
Yes I am aware, however the categorical imperative by itself does not seem to rule out such lying.

“Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law.” — Immanuel Kant, Grounding for the Metaphysics of Morals

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by ric2b on Wednesday April 25, 2018 @02:49PM (#16924737)
But it's even better in the long run if inefficient companies consistently lose to the better ones, since it will lead to better allocation of capital.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by DataWorker on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:03AM (#16903456)
He did say marketing, sales and PR but your point still stands.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by chongli on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:53AM (#16903890)
I was referring to marketing, sales, and PR as activities moreso than the people who work in those fields. I can't speak for all stem people, of course, but I, personally, have a strong aversion to those activities.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by jimbokun on Monday April 23, 2018 @05:34PM (#16907646)
"There is also a moral argument for doing what you need to do in order to survive the difficulties of the market in order to survive it and change it into something more akin to your honest attitude about it."

There's really not, but it might make you feel better to think there is.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by digi_owl on Monday April 23, 2018 @05:09PM (#16907413)
How the stock market cargo cult works.

We have already seen this with things like offshoring.

A few big name companies did the numbers and found they could save some on moving their production somewhere else.

Then came a rush of companies that made big that they had offshored who knows what, simply because that was what the stock market expected of a would be forward looking company.

The basic problem is that these decisions are not done based on what is good for the company long term, but what is good for the stock price short term. And in large part because CEOs are paid in stock options, and can be ousted by activist stock owners.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by db1 on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:15AM (#16900472)
I went to your website, and I can't figure out what your product is or does. I had to click in to individuals before I figured out what it does.

Why not put "BeeLine Reader makes reading on-screen easier, faster, and more enjoyable. We use a simple cognitive trick — an eye-guiding color gradient — to pull your eyes from one line to the next." on your front page?

Maybe you guys have already done some kind of testing and found out that the current layout is optimal?

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:43AM (#16900572)
Appreciate the feedback. We recently redesigned the website to offer silos, and one of the goals was to make the landing page not offer too many specifics that would make some audiences bounce. But perhaps your suggestion is just what we need to do. Thanks for taking the time to share!

One lesson learned: I should have linked to the /individual page instead of the generic landing page in my comment. Updating link now...

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by willvarfar on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:31AM (#16900737)
The lesson you should have learned is to make the generic landing page actually describe the what the product attempts to acheive! You have just had a load of inquisitive wanting-to-be-impressed HNers descend on your page and nobody knew what the thing was about! :)

Publishers, educators etc also need to understand what the value proposition is for their users.

I also think the page ought to be written in longer sentences. The current silo buttons aren't even making it clear that they explain more.

So, suggestions:

You just have to take the few sentences from your Individuals page "Reading on-screen can be tough on your eyes, especially if you have to do it all day long. We’re here to help. BeeLine Reader makes reading on-screen easier, faster, and more enjoyable." and put that on your landing page instead of "A New Way to Read."

Now change the "(choose)" subheading to "perspectives:", put it lower nearer the buttons instead of near the description, and perhaps left-align it.

Change the buttons from meaningless colours with labels to something descriptive like "for you the user :smile:", "for the publisher $" and "for the educator :graduation-hat-icon:".

Voila! good luck!

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:55AM (#16900837)
Super helpful, thanks!
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by azernik on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:53AM (#16900608)
It's good to keep market-specific language to market-specific silos, but you need to put some little (milquetoast, plain-info) bit up front. Otherwise you turn off every market.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:59AM (#16900629)
Totally agree. Would you say that GP's suggested language is sufficiently plain? I would worry that it would turn off publishing partners, who want to hear things like "increase audience engagement" not "read easier".

Maybe something generic like "improve focus while reading", which could appeal to individuals and publishing partners? Appreciate your taking the time to share feedback — this sort of stuff is not something we're skilled/experienced at.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by azernik on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:50AM (#16901668)
I don't really have a good feel for any of those customers, so... ^_^
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by ZgjimDida on Monday April 23, 2018 @05:17AM (#16901802)
I agree with the comment above. I wanted to ask you what your product does, then I thought "why should I ask you when I can check the website out". Then I checked the website and I didn't find a description.

I think it will be very helpful to have a simple description in your site. First impression matters.

p.s. I like the idea of your product.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by fastball on Monday April 23, 2018 @03:43PM (#16906725)
I disagree with everyone else!

The silos are good, you just need to make it much more obvious that the user needs to select one of the silos in order to get at more information. It's not particularly obvious that your buttons are buttons. I would also recommend that the content be full height / width so that on desktop at least the user doesn't scroll at all. The stock photo is probably unnecessary for the main page. Also you don't really need left/right margins since there isn't really text on the page, and that's what large margins are good for (but I'm assuming you know that since you made this app!)

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by CodeWriter23 on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:27AM (#16901544)
I bounced as soon as I couldn’t find pricing information.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @11:14AM (#16904111)
Good point — this is something we need to address. Our most popular products (browser plugin and iOS app) both have free trials so that people can see how much they like to read with BeeLine. The iOS app actually has very significant free functionality, so if you just want to use it as a reading list (like Pocket/Instapaper) you can do so for free via the Share Extension, which populates an offline reading list.

Things get more complicated, as the browser plugins are subscription ($2/mo or $22/yr) and the iOS app is one-time IAPs (mostly a few bucks, but more for the Kindle feature). I'm not sure how to succinctly communicate this, but you and other commenters make clear that we need to have some info here.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts!

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by CodeWriter23 on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:16PM (#16904747)
Thanks for the follow up. What if I have a website and I want all my pages rendered in Beeline? I immediately noticed being able to read faster and more comfortably. I view Beeline as a conversion optimization tool.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:37PM (#16904985)
We have a JS widget that can be dropped into websites. I'd be interested to see if we can increase your conversion rate or other key metrics.

CNET did a study [1] that showed BeeLine readers were much more likely to finish an article, but it would be great to take things to the next level and see how that translates into purchases or other conversions.

Shoot me an email! contact@[domain]

1: the CNET study is discussed at the bottom of this article http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/05/a-bett...

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by CodeWriter23 on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:22PM (#16904804)
PS While your wife is pretty awesome thinking on her feet, I don’t see the case for ML providing meaningful optimization for Beeline. Maybe you dodged a bullet getting a pass from a VC with unrealistic expectations.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by ak39 on Monday April 23, 2018 @06:39AM (#16902140)
I have nothing to do with the website/product in question, but could you explain a bit more why you would "bounce" (assuming bounce means you would lose interest) if you didn't immediately see pricing information?
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by vidarh on Monday April 23, 2018 @06:56AM (#16902212)
For me, I almost always bounce if I don't immediately see pricing information as it is an important signal with respect to whether or not this is something that's targeted towards me and/or whether or not they think I'll get sticker shock if they show it to me right away. In either case, the lack of readily available pricing makes me negatively inclined to spend more time looking into a product where I don't know if I'd ever consider paying whatever price they don't want to tell me.

It doesn't need to be a lot of detail, or precise. Even just a "from $..." or "plans starting at ..." would be enough.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by freehunter on Monday April 23, 2018 @08:22AM (#16902717)
I agree. There have been a lot of times I’ve been interested in something that seems to be exactly what I’m looking for but when I manage to find pricing information it’s starting at $990/mo. And now I’ve wasted all that time on a product very obviously not designed to help me remember to pick up bread at the store.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by CodeWriter23 on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @01:32AM (#16910094)
I appreciate that Citus Data is right out in the open that entry level is $800/mo. I know straight up I can’t afford it. But they also tell me the size of their minimum instances, which also tells me my product hasn’t yet scaled to the level to need their service. And by the time it does, $800/mo will be acceptable.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @01:20PM (#16914571)
Ah, so were you talking about the partner pricing, for integrating into a site/app? I can see how it would be helpful to at least have some prices shown for that, to show the ballpark. For a casual website owner who just wants to make the copy easier to read, the pricing is de minimis (just enough to make sure that folks are serious about integrating and not wasting our time with a bunch of back-and-forth). Shoot me an email if you want to talk further!
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by CodeWriter23 on Thursday April 26, 2018 @07:33PM (#16937001)
I’m planning on it. Thanks for all your awesome interaction on this thread.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by purerandomness on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:04AM (#16903461)
* So I just randomly came to your website because I slacked off and should actually do work.

* I know that I will forget I even clicked on that link. The page has 3.5 seconds to convince me to stay longer.

* I'm mildly intrigued and form, in my head, a price I'd be willing to pay for the product.

* I scan the navbar for a pricing link to see if my expectation matches reality. I find nothing.

* The site obviously doesn't value my time, so why should I stay?

It's disrespectful.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by CodeWriter23 on Monday April 23, 2018 @05:06PM (#16907386)
Two reasons. First, the tech spoke for itself and I was sold, if I could afford it. Don’t insert the friction of having to exchange an email and suck my information out of me to find out the cost. That goes against every theory and study about conversion, dating back to before the web. They have a saying, when you’ve made the sale, shut your fucking mouth. And as my example demonstrates, sales leak out of that funnel simply because people can’t be bothered.

Second, the other saying is if you have to ask how much it costs, you can’t afford it. So by concealing the price, the company is telling me the cost is too high and they know it. They are telegraphing that part of their sales process requires a salesperson to coerce the money out of me.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @05:33PM (#16907637)
Interesting point about involving a salesperson — it came across that you would have to negotiate with a literal person before purchasing? I sort of always figure that it's just a matter of an upgrade notice that displays a price and that's that.

Also, note that we don't actually require (or even ask for) email addresses or anything personal when you install the browser plugin. You just click install, try it for 2 weeks, and then buy if you want. The standard pricing is $2/mo, with a discount for annual purchase.

I totally appreciate the feedback and will see how we can better communicate our pricing to alleviate concerns like this.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by DougBTX on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:52AM (#16903870)
You'd already updated the link above when I first looked at the site, but having a look at the home page, I didn't immediately notice that the Individual / Educational / Partners text were links, so I'd have probably been confused too!
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by zo1 on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:00PM (#16905805)
I liked your reading challenge idea! Very interesting, even though apparently the results indicated that I didn't read any faster.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:22PM (#16906014)
Yeah, as some here have pointed out, the topics are aimed a bit toward younger/less technical audiences, so it's perhaps not like your typical reading material.

I should also note that reading ease is an important (but difficult to measure) piece of this as well. So if it felt better for you, then it might be worth trying out the browser plugin and then trying the reading challenge again. There could be a little bit of a learning curve, as your eyes adjust to how quickly you can jump from line to line.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by tejasmanohar on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:30AM (#16900528)
Agree with db1's feedback. I almost immediately closed the page after not finding the pitch.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by Someone on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:28AM (#16900970)
If your code has even a single magical constant (I guess it likely has, if only because your code has to figure out whether a period is sentence-ending), you can and, now that it is cheap and easy, probably should use machine learning (a moniker that includes such algorithms as gradient descent) to optimize that constant.

Also, if you ever have considered two code variants where one is a bit better in situation A and the other in situation B, you can use machine learning to combine the two methods, (e.g. using a random forest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_forest)

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by guy98238710 on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:47AM (#16901022)
You don't need AI to find values for free parameters. Unless you consider all of statistics to be a subfield of AI.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by disgruntledphd2 on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:52AM (#16901035)
I personally consider all of modern AI (i.e. statistical pattern matching) to be a subfield of statistics. Mind you, I'm probably just a grumpy old man.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by dvfjsdhgfv on Monday April 23, 2018 @03:35AM (#16901244)
No, you're being fairly accurate.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by halflings on Monday April 23, 2018 @03:34AM (#16901239)
Why use the term "AI" when the GP specifically used the less ambiguous Machine Learning?

Machine Learning = statistics + linear algebra + computer science, mostly.

Naive Bayes and Graphical Models are pure statistics, but they are mostly used for toy problems. Machine Learning scales these approaches to high dimensionality problems, and tasks where data is abundant.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by freehunter on Monday April 23, 2018 @08:29AM (#16902759)
Funny, I would consider many ML usages to be toy problems. Coming up with funny nonsensical Shakespeare plays or generating random Pantone colors or Pokémon names isn’t something you hear from Bayesian systems. That’s the domain of ML. Recommending related products is again simple statistical analysis. And I can generate a prediction based on past performance real easy with some SQL and a couple of “if” statements.

Just because Bayesian isn’t over-hyped doesn’t mean it doesn’t solve real problems. Not everything can be solved with ML, unless the problem is getting more investor money.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by peatmoss on Friday April 27, 2018 @10:39AM (#16941065)
There are some methods that I don’t see used outside of the machine learning community, but there appears to be a fair degree of overlap in actual methods used between classical stats and machine learning.

Now, the biggest difference that I can see is that, within machine learning contexts, people are more concerned with the quality of the predictions than the interpretation of the independent variables. That’s not hard and fast, but it seems to be a common thread.

And for some problems, making a good prediction is really the right thing. In other cases, understanding the mechanisms you might use to effect an outcome is more important. Both are valid uses of statistical methods, depending on the problem.

I think within the realm of classical statistics, Bayesian methods’ super power is in being able to generate results that are much easier to communicate to lay people. Also Bayesian methods are nice if you want to do sensitivity analysis in a principled up front kind of way.

But I could imagine using those methods in an ML context even if they aren’t the current darlings of the methodological pantheon.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by kahnjw on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:40AM (#16903760)
I agree with all of this, except are you really implementing bayesian models in SQL? I'm not sure that is what the author is advocating in the first place. There are tools for bayesian everything, I much prefer using those over hacking together some illegible SQL script.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by freehunter on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:39PM (#16906196)
No, it’s just SQL statements pulling data into the if...then in your preferred language. I’ve never done actual logic with SQL, not even sure if it’s possible.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by JetSpiegel on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:29PM (#16907097)
Each DB engine has it's own incompatible imperative stored procedure language.

Having worked with Oracle's version, and seen entire systems buult out of that, I dread it.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gaius on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:07AM (#16901436)
If someone had something as basic as logistic regression or k-means clustering in a production app they are already ahead of the vast majority of ML practitioners
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by peatmoss on Friday April 27, 2018 @10:27AM (#16940977)
Gods, maybe I should stop telling people that I don’t have much in the way of a machine learning background.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by PeterisP on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:28PM (#16904875)
Naive Bayes is machine learning. A very simple machine learning method, but machine learning.

Also, the argument that it's pure statistics doesn't really fly - support vector machines, random forests or deep learning multilayer perceptrons are just as much statistics as probabilistic graphical models.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by nkozyra on Monday April 23, 2018 @07:48AM (#16902533)
> Naive Bayes and Graphical Models are pure statistics, but they are mostly used for toy problems.

I think they just feel "toy" because they've been used with great accuracy for so long.

Complex problems are rarely solved by a single approach. The harder the problem the more likely a suite will be used, and often naive bayes will be part of that in some capacity.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by PeterisP on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:25PM (#16904840)
Can you give one example where Naive Bayes has been used with great accuracy for so long?

Naive Bayes is a common baseline solution because it's very simple to implement and very fast to run; however, pretty much any other ML method gives better accuracy than Naive Bayes. Sometimes the accuracy improvement is small and doesn't justify the highly increased computing cost, though, so Naive Bayes becomes the appropriate method to use, but it's not because of its accuracy.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by ravenstine on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:31PM (#16904926)
Aren't Bayesian models essentially statistics + linear algebra? It sounds like you're characterizing ML as something beyond Bayes, which isn't really the case. I don't know what you mean by "toy" problems... that might be kind of true for Naive Bayes, but a Bayesian statistical model can be built in a non-naive fashion and provide useful multi-dimensional probabilities. It's really a kind of underrated technique, though I suppose it's because you can't simply `import Bayes from 'bayes'` to build a non-naive model.

Bayesian models are also advantageous in that they are much easier to describe to stakeholders. Neural networks, on the other hand, are highly difficult(if not impossible in many cases) to describe how they function.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by dvogel on Monday April 23, 2018 @09:34AM (#16903241)
AI and ML have different goals, which sometimes overlap. The goal of ML is to discover relationships in data that can only be (easily) observed by a machine. That usually serves as decision support data for a human decision maker or another more conventional algorithm. This is usually based on an entire data set at once. Accuracy and precision are valued over quickness and robustness.

AI is about substituting human decision makers or other conventional computer decision algorithms. AI is used for situational decision making. It needs to be quick (like the conventional algorithms) while also recognizing the nuance and multi-dimemaional nature of a lot of decisions. Robustness and quickness are often valued more than precision.

IOW the GP is only using ML for everything because it is a buzzword.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by PeterisP on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:19PM (#16904783)
ML is one of subdomains in the AI field, so instead of "sometimes overlap" it's technically correct to state that ML is a strict subset of AI.

What you use as description for AI tempts me to use the "use it as a buzzword" angle back at you here - it is a stereotypical description of some use cases of AI approaches; but there are others - [machine] learning, knowledge representation, planning and scheduling, reasoning (both formal logic reasoning and also reasoning under uncertainty e.g. Bayesian approaches), intelligent agent representation, etc, are all parts of the AI field.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by tkxxx7 on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:19PM (#16904788)
This last line seems unnecessarily rude. GP seems to understand well the two ML methods mentioned.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by skj on Monday April 23, 2018 @07:54AM (#16902562)
> Machine Learning scales these approaches to high dimensionality problems, and tasks where data is abundant.

Machine learning is the use of computers to make decisions (or classifications) based on data without human intervention.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by fny on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:53AM (#16901041)
Great product idea! I'm glad people find it useful.

Hypotheses:

> corporate VC that wanted to make a strategic investment

They want to put money in your company to make sure they don't have to compete with you or compete with someone else who might buy you down the line.

> They kept prodding around on the ML stuff, and how we might be able to use ML to accomplish roughly the same thing.

They're looking for secret sauce, barriers, friction. Something patentable. Something to keep others out and keep them ahead. Perhaps something that they don't think they can do themselves or maybe rip off when they realize it's useful. Remember Flux?[0]

They're investment thesis makes sense from this perspective: they're thinking like classic, amoral businesses.

Also note that if your product is simple and popular enough, people will likely make free clones. You'll need to be a good steward to keep your value.

Best of luck!

----

A bit of feedback: you need to be more transparent and up front about what how and why you're using analytics, and let people opt-in. I was a bit disconcerted to see you using Google Analytics in your extension without informing me.

[0]: https://justgetflux.com/news/2016/01/14/apple.html

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by dahart on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:23AM (#16903607)
> you need to be more transparent and up front about what how and why you're using analytics

That's a new one to me. Is this Facebook changing the landscape right now, or have you been expecting this for a while? Do you have sites in mind that warn about GA?

Pretty much all websites use GA or something like it, and in my experience it's extremely rare to be warned about it. It always goes in the privacy policy, which you should be able to find. But I'm not sure I've ever seen an advance warning that analytics was taking place. I suppose it's assumed, but in any case appears to be normal and acceptable to not warn people that logging and searching of those logs exists.

Cookies are a different story, since the EU passed legislation requiring notice of their presence.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by guiriduro on Monday April 23, 2018 @05:12AM (#16901779)
> They're looking for secret sauce, barriers, friction. Something patentable.

While that may be true, I'd suggest the VC's are just looking for a later exit when a greater fool buys them out. They're betting on the ML investment market getting hotter, and providing you meet the criteria of being a growing startup (by some metric) nominally in the ML field and that field attracts more investment dollars later - even whether or not you succeed as a bottom line business, or whether your business success comes from ML or not - doesn't necessarily matter.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @03:32AM (#16901222)
Appreciate the feedback! Regarding analytics, I think this is some A/B testing, which I don't think is even active in the current version (though still in the sources).

More importantly, we don't tie GA or any other usage analytics to individual users. We basically just use it to see where the extension is used and where people are blacklisting sites. We use this data to make the extension run better on more sites. We don't monetize user data in any way. You're right that we should make this point more salient. In our Privacy Policy, we do describe how to opt out by blocking GA, but we should put this somewhere more prominent.

Thanks for the feedback!

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by asfdsfggtfd on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:03AM (#16901408)
> we don't tie GA or any other usage analytics to individual users

You may not identify individual users but Google probably do...

> we should put this somewhere more prominent

You should make it opt in by default. Or stop doing it!

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by dahart on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:27AM (#16903636)
> You should make it opt in by default. Or stop doing it!

What? Can you post some examples of sites that already do this? Everybody has analytics on their landing pages, and I don't think I've ever personally seen an opt-in.

What you can find are thousands of examples of site policy pages that say something like: "by choosing to visit our site, you are sharing information with us that we log for the purposes of improving our customer experience. By using our service, you agree to this logging. If you don't want to be logged, then please don't use our service."

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by blowski on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:44AM (#16901652)
IANAL, but have worked on GDPR a fair bit.

Google Analytics is already GDPR compliant, as long as:

* you are not pushing any unencrypted customer data to them in the clear

* you're careful regards who has access to your Google Analytics data

You can (and most businesses will) argue that you need to know how your website is used. It's a completely standard practice that doesn't put user privacy at risk. Moreover, Google has already offered an opt-out to Google Analytics globally, and you would be covered by that. As such, you don't need them to opt-in.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by asfdsfggtfd on Monday April 23, 2018 @06:42AM (#16902154)
This isn't about law it is about ethics.

I wouldn't like it if someone followed me around meatspace with a clipboard all day. I don't like it online either.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by jfz on Monday April 23, 2018 @09:22AM (#16903161)
That's not the best analogy - it's more like someone has two chairs in their waiting room and they note which chair is more popular among people waiting, so they can replace the worse chair with a copy of the better one.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by asfdsfggtfd on Monday April 30, 2018 @02:22AM (#16956229)
Except that this business saves money by allowing a representative of a third party to take the notes. The third party then notes down who sits in the chairs, follows them into the appointment and follows their client to the next business and do the same there.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:18AM (#16901490)
We're totally open to making this opt-in. I'm curious how we should gather usage data, which some of our nonprofit funders require us to report for their impact questionnaire. How can we know how much the tools are being used if it's opt-in? Or are there other systems (other than Google) that raise fewer concerns?

I really appreciate all the candid advice in this thread and hope that we — and others in similar situations — can use it to improve our products.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by fny on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:12AM (#16903521)
A few other meandering thoughts, you'll need to be the one to figure out what makes sense.

- You're already not getting data from people with ad-blockers, consider also respecting Do Not Track[0] - Be transparent about what you track and how it's used - The data collected from opt-in users might end up being enough to build convincing enough reports for impact questionnaires? - Your privacy policy seems confused: "We think the best way to ensure that your personal information stays safe is to never collect any in the first place" then "we only use Google Analytics, which gathers information about our site users and generates aggregate reports to help us figure out who is using our site and extensions, and in what ways"

[0]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Navigator/d...

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by brod on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:23AM (#16900950)
I posted that link in slack and it's twitter:* meta content is really strange:

    Parade of Fans for Houston’s Funeral

    NEWARK - The guest list and parade of limousines with celebrities emerging from them seemed more suited to a red carpet event in Hollywood or New York than than a gritty stretch of Sussex Avenue near the former site of the James M. Baxter Terrace public housing project here.
I found an example [1] with the same content so I guess you just haven't updated it.

1: https://gist.github.com/blairanderson/85cc961295fd03a6c4b3

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:47AM (#16901020)
Wow, how embarrassing. Thanks for pointing this out. I have no idea how we didn't catch it sooner.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by bytesandbots on Wednesday April 25, 2018 @01:22PM (#16923807)
On a related note, the link to twitter:image is also on wrong domain.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by matchagaucho on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:26PM (#16904853)
Often times the output of ML/AI will result in writing code for an expert system.

The system doesn't actually use ML or AI in realtime. ML just validates the correct conditionals and decisions are used in the software.

Most ML models can be distilled down using the Pareto principle anyway, and the 80/20 rule written into the code.

A politically correct and high-integrity story to tell investors might be "We use machine learning regression analysis to validate our expert systems are operating on optimal statistical models."

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by azernik on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:05AM (#16900648)
Awesome product! Been using it for a bit, and does indeed help.

Just a quick bug report - it does the wrong thing on right-to-left text. e.g. on this article [1], it highlights the beginning (right side) of one line and the end (left side) of the next line in the same color, which doesn't actually reflect the flow of reading. There's also a weird effect on LTR text embedded in the RTL (on my setup, the "a" in "axios" on the third line of the body is bright red, while the rest is complete black).

EDIT: [1]http://www.maariv.co.il/news/world/Article-633899

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:11AM (#16900678)
Can you share the link? I thought we fixed the right-to-left issue a long time ago. Feel free to share screenshots or more info with contact@[domain].
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by azernik on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:46AM (#16900798)
Ah! Sorry, forgot to paste the link in. It's here: http://www.maariv.co.il/news/world/Article-633899

Sending a screenshot by e-mail now.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by xevb3k on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:57AM (#16900619)
Can someone explain the dynamic that’s going on here? I somehow can believe that VCs are so stupid to be purely hype driven, so what is pushing them to make this their investment focus?

Do they just jump on every bandwagon in the hope that one of them might pan out?

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by joewee on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:20AM (#16900702)
VCs raise money the same way startups do, only with more regulation. For that bucket of money they likely presented a thesis for how they would used to invest in the ML/AI wave. Investors have rights if the money isn’t used they way they were told it would be.

VCs raise money from fund managers (sovereign wealth funds for example) who also present a thesis to their stakeholders for how the money will be managed.

Depends on the timing but I think VC focus on ML is a good indicator of where smart money thinks the money is going to be made. But there are a lot of people that catch a trend in the tail in, I don’t think we’ve gotten anywhere close to that for ML investments.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:32AM (#16900739)
You make a good point about a VC's responsibility to stick to the plan they sold their LPs on. This could explain a lot of group-think and myopia in the industry.

But in this particular case, it was a corporate VC, investing their own money.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by y_molodtsov on Friday April 27, 2018 @03:29AM (#16939047)
That's even worse for you case, I suppose. In case of a usual VC funds it's about the returns, but corporate VCs also look for some potential synergy. They probably were looking for some ML startups that they could utilize later.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by snaily on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:22AM (#16900946)
For corporate VCs, s/LPs/board/
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by azernik on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:09AM (#16900668)
They put a lot of study into hyped categories, so they at least understand the businesses they're investing in. They can evaluate the caliber of talent, understand the depth of your moat, etc. Whereas with businesses outside of the hype (or outside of their specific specialty) they're not confident in their ability to even evaluate the potential of an investment.

(I'm working on a startup right now that's in a similar position - non-hyped B2B segment. VCs are all "hey, look, we don't understand X market very well, maybe go to Y VC?" And Y VC is all "hmm, you're only tangentially related to Z market that we actually understand, so you'll need to get to Series A-sized revenues before we'll put in a seed-size investment.")

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by rorykoehler on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:47AM (#16901021)
They invest in future potential. What you can do now is nearly irrelevant besides showing vision and competency. The next big thing isn't going to come from a couple of clever sql scripts.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by collyw on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:38AM (#16901608)
Neither will the next big failure.

What has AI really given us so far? Amazon / Youtube recommendations and some self driving cars that have crashed in unexpected ways. (Have they managed to debug that yet?)

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by rorykoehler on Monday April 23, 2018 @09:46AM (#16903322)
From a VC perspective failure has a maximum downside of whatever you invested. Success has a limitless upside. That's why 9 out of 10 companies failing isn't an issue.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by wellboy on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:40AM (#16901001)
VCs are very stupid most of the time. They don't understand even how ML works orh blockchain or any new trend.

But their manager told them ML, ML, so they need to invest in ML. This is not a joke.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by Avshalom on Monday April 23, 2018 @11:28AM (#16904252)
The thing is we're at a stage where companies hoover up every bit and byte of data they can get hold of on every customer and many non-customers because... well it's gotta be valuable some how right?

But it's so much damn data so loosely coupled to a company's actual product that trying to get any actionable intelligence out of it is basically impossible. Enter ML. "Just" chuck your data at a NN use A/B tests to train and hope the company ends up with higher revenues, if they do: claim the 'data scientists' are definitely a profit center; if they don't: claim you need more data.

Until Exxon-Mobile stops storing metrics on how many goldfish I own in a given month, cranking out ML related companies seems like a good bet for VCs because it's not going to get any easier to turn progressively more esoteric data points into money.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by manigandham on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:37AM (#16900989)
Yes, due diligence is rare. This is portfolio theory in action, investing in many losing bets because the 1% will win big and create the returns.

Disqualify the easy "no", then everything else is a "maybe". Invest and move on.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by robryan on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:52AM (#16900828)
The VCs is this case were probably looking for some tech that had a higher barrier to entry.

Whether it is true or not in this case they may have perceived that if it was based on a ML approach it might be harder for the competition to replicate if it was successful.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by collyw on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:35AM (#16901595)
Its not just every VC, its a good percentage,maybe the majority of developers out there.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by bayesian_horse on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:28AM (#16901553)
Well, they probably want engineers with ML experience, and companies who already have a foot in that door when an opportunity arises for an actual profit maker.

You may have pitched a perfectly fine product to somebody in the market for a perfectly fine acquihire.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by sixhobbits on Monday April 23, 2018 @06:01PM (#16907843)
I did your test. Interesting idea. Feedback: I got "It looks like BeeLine didn’t improve your reading speed this time through." which I think needs another pass from your copy editors.

Interesting idea overall. I've been using spritz a lot recently and I'm liking it more and more though it doesn't seem to have progressed from when I discovered it a few years ago.

Re the investors blindly wanting ML - we have this problem too (and it's definitely a problem - I can see this in spite of having a masters in ML). On the bright side, some investors - often the better ones - have said things like "I was interested the moment you didn't use ML or blockchain in your pitch", so stay true to your vision :)

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by zhte415 on Monday April 23, 2018 @11:25AM (#16904224)
General comment on colour highlighting -

I read the updated /individual page and found it very... difficult.

The colours led me to speed up and slow down at an uncomfortable rate, to the extent I had to re-read it three times. I typically receive 200-1000 emails per day which all need to be read (yay!) plus at least 30k words per day out of email (business stuff but excluding newspapers, books, etc).

I speed-read about 6-10 words per flick of the eyes (for a short document), which is about 50 words per second. Do slow down to ponder: careful phrasing, a needingly precise written document, some graphics, and this is not for detriment.

I found the colour-coding very difficult, however.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:33PM (#16904938)
I'm curious to know if you tried it in the more subtle color schemes. OTOH, if you're a speed reader who uses other techniques, this might not fit your reading patterns.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by TheOtherHobbes on Monday April 23, 2018 @05:44PM (#16907733)
Similar experience here. I suspect it's not a good option for speed readers.

Also, there are issues with red-screen sleep promoting systems like f.lux.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by qwerty456127 on Monday April 23, 2018 @11:58AM (#16904549)
Wow! Would you mind sharing some practical advice on how to actually train to read this fast?
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by zhte415 on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @06:52AM (#16911445)
After writing this, I realise you may need to speed read it!

My first company provided a speed reading training course for the best part of a day.

It wasn't the best targeted course for most people there. We mainly read legal and policy documents which by their nature are terse, and the method of speed reading taught traded-off retention against speed against accuracy. It was more of a concept, which you can go off with an develop yourself. So here's the idea -

1. Start with a text that is quite verbose but not overly so. A code specification or Brett Easton Ellis novel is a no. A light news article should be fine or non-technical book should be fine.

2. Recognise that when you read, you don't read a word from letter start to finish, you basically look in the middle of it and the word is recognised. If you have dyslexia, this technically probably doesn't work; but if you have dyslexia, you've probably invested countless painful hours to something a lot of us take for granted and hats off to that.

You might not notice, but you probably read multiple-words at a time already. Commonly paired words are often read together, like 'a few'. YMMV. Harness that.

3. Mentally split a page of text into narrow columns, perhaps the width of 2 medium length words. Flick your eyes across a line of text. Only focus on the middle of the mental column and absorb the words, like a snapshot (no need to blink).

This is where accuracy starts to degrade. If the text consists of obscure words or lots of figures, accuracy can hurt at the start. Grammar patterns are important too - as long as the text is written by a native or very close near native speaker, anticipation and auto-ordering in this mini-snapshot can be hard or impossible; likewise unfamiliar or complex sentence structures from a native speaker.

4. Now, start to speed up over a paragraph. This is where retention starts to hurt. You certainly don't want to be wording-out words, as this will slow you down and defeat the purpose. But when you've read a block of text, have you been able to follow the meaning at the end.

Again, using well written, non-overly terse training text is important.

5. You should be tired by now, having done this for several hours. Our trainer then suggested changing the 'snapshot' from one line, to two lines, so you're essentially reading the start of the second line before finishing the end of the first line. I can do this but your text needs to be super non-terse for this to work at the start, and even then it's weird. If you can cover a single line pretty fast in less than a second certainly, then this starts to become feasible.

tl;dr

Went on a training course. Was pessimistic as were my colleagues at the start. Persisted afterwards by trying a few minutes per day. Became a habit, especially when seeing articles or documents that I needed to read but didn't need to scrutinise. Important to choose the right tool for the right job. I'd not use this technique to read a document where I'm not familiar with the content-scope; I wouldn't use this technique to read a contract I'm signing, or where specifications/requirements are being very clearly outlined. I do use it to read things like bloomberg.com articles, or PMBOK Guide :)

Hope a little useful, and the above can set you on some kind of direction to learn more. I highly recommend a half-day instructor-led course to kick you off. I imagine there's a college near you which has something.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by arghwhat on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:57AM (#16901712)
You should definitely have made something up.

Up front, many investors only seek buzzwords before they shift focus to numbers. Be a sales(wo)man, and feed them the ones they want. Later on, once you end up making them money, they're not going to care much about what technologies are involved.

I wish you the best of luck with your startup in the future.

(P.S. I had a FOUC on your webpage. The icons in the "want more" section were missing, and haphazardly popping in. Might want to fix that.)

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by mindhash on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:24AM (#16900513)
This seems pretty cool. I found a good difference reading your education product. It was easy on eyes.

I read a lot of blogs. Thought you could add a wp plugin if it doesn't exist.

Also you must have a ml/ai roadmap for tracking user interactions, etc for possibility of further personalization. Leaving aside the buzz of ai/ml, I think every business has opportunity to apply ml/ai. It doesn't happen often but when it does, its gold for any business

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:47AM (#16900593)
It's true, we could use AI or ML to do stuff not related to the core product. But these investors thought that we should be using ML in the coloring algorithm itself. Even if this made sense to do (that is, if it improved reading ability for people compared with our current product), it would be much harder to explain.

Right now, it's easy to say it's a color gradient that wraps from one line to the next, guiding your eyes. I don't know how I insert "machine learning" into that sentence somewhere and not sound like I'm trying to trend-surf.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by vidarh on Monday April 23, 2018 @07:11AM (#16902291)
If you can apply any kind of approach that automatically feeds measurements of user success back in to an algorithm to automatically adjust e.g. the colors used for the gradient based on measuring what works best, you can justify saying you're using machine learning.

I think people are too often too quick to assume that machine learning necessarily implies deep learning and neural networks, when often it can reasonably be reduced to simple statistical approaches.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gadders on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:25AM (#16901536)
First time I've heard of it, but that app is actually pretty cool. I can feel it dragging my eyeballs RTL :-)
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by nefitty on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:08AM (#16900887)
Thank you for your work on Beeline. I've been using it for several months and it definitely helps when diving into large Wikipedia articles, research papers, blog posts, etc. I found that it facilitates my reaching flow quickly when investigating large problems.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:17AM (#16900925)
I'm curious to know where you heard about BeeLine a few months ago. We haven't had press in a long time, and most HNers who know about us found out from our Show HN way back in 2013.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by nefitty on Sunday April 29, 2018 @08:38AM (#16951750)
I tried to track down what it was, and I think I stumbled across the name while looking at the ReadMe! Android app. It was pay to use, but I was eager to try it. Thankfully I found your /pasteboard tool and it helped me dominate wiki articles, whitepapers, research papers, etc. I was sold because of the pasteboard and moved to paying for the desktop chrome extension
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by mort96 on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:47AM (#16903824)
So, I went to the page, clicked the button for the Firefox extension, and was greeted with this page: https://s.mort.coffee/d/img/scr-4494758.png

You should probably link to the add-on page (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/beelinereader...) instead of directly to the .xpi file. I would never accept to install a plug-in from a random link even if it hadn't been for the dialog's scary language.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @11:10AM (#16904063)
Thanks for the feedback. We tried to make it as easy as possible, but I can see that it comes across as more legit if the install comes from the Firefox Store, which requires vetting.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by parmesan on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:05AM (#16900650)
Wow this is amazing! I don't understand the VCs input about ML, why and how would it help in this use case?
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:08AM (#16900666)
I think they wanted us to do something with NLP and ML, to make it syntactically-based. I happen to have studied linguistics and know how complex this would be — and of course it would have to be custom-built for every language. The current version, which just uses line position, works fine and is language-independent.

Another explanation: they didn't actually know how they wanted us to us ML — they just knew they wanted us to use it.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by nl on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:45AM (#16901015)
I do ML/NLP, and recently have been doing color related things.

I think you are underestimating how useful NLP could be in your application.

I tried out one of your test cases, and I did find it useful. However, I think that blending colors based on entity recognition along with your line based system could focus attention on important parts.

Have a look at [1] (sorry for the long URL) and imagine the colors blending with yours, so entities were slightly brighter than the rest of the text.

[1] https://explosion.ai/demos/displacy-ent?text=John%20Fitzgera...

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:57AM (#16901056)
I don't disagree that NLP could be powerful, and I have thought about ways to make it syntactically aware.

But honestly the biggest barrier we face in adoption among licensees (platforms that would integrate our tech) is that they are simply uncomfortable with text that has colors in it. It's not about how much it helps any metrics (the things that NLP could improve) — it's just that most folks don't want to be early-adopters of crazy-looking tech.

Though I should note we do have some great licensees, especially in the education, impact, and accessibility markets.

Regardless, I'd love to chat with you further — please shoot me an email (contact@[domain]) if you're up for chatting about how we could deploy NLP as we develop.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by nl on Monday April 23, 2018 @03:23AM (#16901181)
So.. the VCs weren't wrong, and it is really UI/UX issues stopping you? And those same UI/UX issues are actually things your primary business has to overcome anyway?

It sounds to me like you should talk to those investors again ;)

I'll drop you an email.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by YeGoblynQueenne on Monday April 23, 2018 @03:56AM (#16901357)
That sounds like a surefire way to annoy and distract the reader. Imagine if every entity was in bold, in a piece of text. It wouldn't draw your attention to important information, it would just disorient you completely. "Why is 'John' in bold? I already know this sentence is about him!".
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by nl on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:36AM (#16901596)
Yes, I think I agree. But OTOH I thought different colours for different lines of text would be annoying and distracting, but that’s what this app does, and apparently it works.

So I guess test it and variations?

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by duckqlz on Monday April 23, 2018 @09:36AM (#16903256)
Is there a white paper or a clinical study to back up the claims on bee reader? I have read numerous studies claiming the exact opposite especially on a light projecting surface. I personally found the colour changing on each line to be extremely distracting and straining on my eyes. Furthermore, this seems like a bad joke for someone who is colour blind. Finally, VCs asking for ML are really asking how your technology fits in to the general future. With a script that reads line length and changes text between 3 colours, let’s be honest, I could have made beeReader when I was 10. Perhaps the VCs were initially wow’d by how profound you believed your product to be but then were underwhelmed by the tech (I’m guessing that’s why the individual page is burried). And if any publishers are in talks with you about using this in printed media (welcome to imaginary land) just keep nodding to what ever they say take their money and run.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:31AM (#16903679)
Yep, there have been several studies done, ranging from media to education to optometric.

• CNET found that readers were 35% more likely to finish reading an article if they were reading with BeeLine turned on. See more on the CNET study in this article in The Atlantic [1].

• An optometric study using eye-tracking glasses found that BeeLine reduced the number of regressions and/or skipped lines for the vast majority of participants.

• Various educator-led studies (some more rigorous than others, and none as informal as the "case studies" that are unfortunately common in edtech) have found strong gains in reading fluency and/or comprehension.

I totally appreciate your skepticism, which is especially reasonable for someone who does not personally see a benefit from the tech.

The response from doctors who work in vision has been very positive, and our tools are recommended by doctors at Stanford Med School and UC Berkeley School of Optometry.

We even got featured by the American Optometric Association. The AOA committee that evaluated our technology said that this was the first time they'd ever had a unanimous vote in favor of anything. Apparently to them, it was quite obvious that this has beneficial effects (without having run any formal studies on it themselves).

To your point about colorblindness, I would note that I regularly come across people with red/green colorblindness who love/use our product. You can change the colors to be whatever you want, or use it in grayscale.

We are talking with publishers, but mostly on the digital side. Thanks for the input and questions!

1: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/05/a-bett...

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by vivekd on Wednesday April 25, 2018 @10:06AM (#16921600)
Why would anyone think you need ML or AI to make letters on a page fit a color gradient. Are these investors crazy? I can't even think of an application for that technology in bee line reader.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by payasr on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:09AM (#16900890)
I have been playing around with the reader, and it doesn't seem to play well with mathjax-enabled pages.. Is it a known issue?
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:15AM (#16900919)
Not before now — thanks for flagging! A couple questions: what do you mean by not play well? Does it undercolor (not color the text you want to have colored), overcolor (accidentally color text that should not be colored), or something else? Thanks for sharing this feedback. As another HNer pointed out via email, we need to have a contact/help link in the Settings panel so that we can gather more feedback like this.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by payasr on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:31AM (#16900975)
The coloring is correct, but the chrome extension 'undoes' the equations rendered on the mathjax-enabled pages. In other words, without the beelinereader extension I can see the equations, with it I see only the latex source code. You should be able to check this on any Springer article.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @03:15AM (#16901149)
OK thanks for describing this in more detail. Sounds like we just need to skip these nodes when coloring. Look out for an update in the next month or so, and in the meantime perhaps you can blacklist auto-run (via Settings) on the Springer domain.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by coldtea on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:43AM (#16901646)
>I indicated that it was actually quite effective without ML, and that it was easier to explain to users this way. They kept prodding around on the ML stuff, and how we might be able to use ML to accomplish roughly the same thing.

Just call what you do ML.

IBM, for one, never shied from calling any old BS "AI" and branding it Watson.

Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by wlesieutre on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:57AM (#16903929)
Just rename your company BeeLine Reader Blockchain and you'll be fine.
Re:You probably don't need AI/ML. You can make do with well ... by qbaqbaqba on Monday April 23, 2018 @06:25AM (#16902095)
Seizure/Nausea warning!