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Re:I miss Windows Phone by Someone1234 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @10:49AM (#16780942)
I purchased a $30 Windows Phone well after the platform was dead, I just wanted to experience it before it was gone.

For a $30 phone, it was incredibly fast and smooth. The tile interface worked well (particularly information dense relative to notification dots/counts on icons we're seeing now), the onscreen keyboard is the best I've ever used (even to this day), and the way updates were delivered (direct from Microsoft, not the network operator or OEM) was a breath of fresh air from Android.

As anyone and everyone will tell you, lack of apps killed it. In no small part because Google was using their market position to squish it (yes, I appreciate the irony). Google didn't produce Windows Phone apps, which they're entitled to not do, but then Microsoft tried to make apps for Google's services[0] which Google also shut down.

Makes you wonder what would happen if Google pulled all of their iOS apps tomorrow, and then blocked third parties/diminished the mobile browser experience on purpose.

[0] https://venturebeat.com/2013/05/15/google-to-microsoft-kill-...

Re:I miss Windows Phone by __sr__ on Saturday April 07, 2018 @01:32PM (#16781695)
> Makes you wonder what would happen if Google pulled all of their iOS apps tomorrow, and then blocked third parties/diminished the mobile browser experience on purpose.

There is a reason Google paid close to 3 billon USD to stay the default search provider on iOS. They had several opportunities to pull their apps from the platform, but they never did. It’s not random. They acknowledge that Apple is not in direct competitior as far as their core business is concerned — unlike Microsoft. They can still be the primary search provider on iOS, but Microsoft would never let that happen on Windows Phone/Mobile thanks to Bing. In fact, there was no way to set the search engine to Google in Edge for a while - and the OS wide search never offered a choice.

Allowing Windows Phone/Mobile to flourish would have meant allowing Bing to grow - something Google can’t afford. As long as Apple doesn’t become a threat to their core business, I don’t think they are going to pull their apps. And even if they do, iOS has become too big to die like Windows Phone/Mobile.

And let’s not forget, the organisations charged with preventing monopoly will slap Google with antitrust lawsuits all over the world.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by mgkimsal on Saturday April 07, 2018 @02:03PM (#16781857)
> Google paid close to 3 billon USD to stay the default search provider on iOS

And yet... they purposefully have ipad mini google search results only show in a crappy 'mobile' format, vs the regular way it used to ('normal desktop' for safari). It's bizarre, has been broken for years. Doesn't matter if they're "default", we've moved to yahoo and ddg for ipad searching. :/

Re:I miss Windows Phone by crysin on Saturday April 07, 2018 @08:18PM (#16783831)
I know the iPad in Portrait and probably the iPad Mini in both orientations resolve to what is considered a "small" screen by Material Design guidelines. It could be that Google's search result display are based on the size of the screen you have and the iPad Mini just may fall under what they categorize as a mobile device.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by bla2 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @03:09PM (#16782235)
iPad is the iOS sideshow in sale numbers by far -- no reason to prioritize it. And, more cynical, using the parent comment's reasoning: iPad _is_ a competitor to Google's Chrome OS in education, so maybe they don't want it to work too well.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by chx on Saturday April 07, 2018 @03:51PM (#16782511)
Can you imagine being the programmer on that project?
Re:I miss Windows Phone by uiri on Saturday April 07, 2018 @05:12PM (#16783012)
It is probably based on browser user-agent detection that doesn't distinguish between iPhone/iPod Touch iOS Safari and iPad iOS Safari. It is not necessarily an active act of malice nor even anything more than "cleaning up" some of the user agent code.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by ryanlol on Saturday April 07, 2018 @06:55PM (#16783517)
This seems extraordinarily unlikely, google pays a lot of attention to user agents.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by bla2 on Sunday April 08, 2018 @07:27PM (#16789116)
I don't think they'll tell engineers to make the experience bad. I used to work for Google, and it doesn't strike me as the place where that would work. More likely is that there just isn't anyone responsible for this; whether that's due to iPad being too small to be worth the opportunity cost of putting someone one it, or due to the more cynical interpretation.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by refulgentis on Saturday April 07, 2018 @04:04PM (#16782583)
Yeah, it would totally suck to have strangers attacking your ethics instead of considering the small tap targets on iPad minis.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by mgkimsal on Sunday April 08, 2018 @09:51PM (#16789731)
> no reason to prioritize it

no reason to explicit fuck it up, except... oh yeah, competitor to your own tablets.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by __sr__ on Saturday April 07, 2018 @10:05PM (#16784183)
Have you tried to Request Desktop Site? It work fine for me on my iPad and iPhone, so I don’t see a reason why it won’t work on iPad Mini. Granted, it is annoying that you can’t set Safari to always load the desktop version by default and you have to force the desktop mode every time you open a new tab, but it is better than nothing.

I haven’t used an Android tablet in a long time, but I think those load the mobile version as well.

And lastly, I’ve never had a problem with the mobile version — I actually prefer it on touch based devices.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by mgkimsal on Sunday April 08, 2018 @12:38PM (#16786899)
you have to 'request desktop site' for each search.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by __sr__ on Monday April 09, 2018 @01:47AM (#16790695)
Yeah, that’s a pain.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by nl on Saturday April 07, 2018 @09:28PM (#16784040)
I use an iPad mini frequently (on one now) and I prefer the mobile format on it.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by neya on Saturday April 07, 2018 @08:35PM (#16783877)
Your comment poses as though Microsoft is a victim here, which they're not. Around 2012ish if I can remember correctly, Apple was throwing around lawsuits like crazy at everyone in the android ecosystem. The most notable I can remember was the one with Samsung. And the next one was HTC. I owned a HTC phone at that time and they made both Android and Windows phones that were very popular. Microsoft, following suit with Apple, started suing almost every major Android vendor to for basic patents[0]. I can't find the article, but their deal was that if you made Android phones, it means you had the means to build Windows phones as well. If you made a Windows phone AND an Android phone, the licensing was very reasonable, otherwise the vendors who made only Android phones would have to pay a lot in royalties to Microsoft.

I personally found this slimy and a very shitty way to sell Windows phones. Technologically, it's a great phone (I had both - Android and Windows from HTC). It was fast, fluid and almost didn't have any lags. Ethically speaking, I'm glad their sneaky sales didn't work out and Windows phone is dead.

[0] https://www.howtogeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/microso...

Re:I miss Windows Phone by throwaway84742 on Sunday April 08, 2018 @02:33AM (#16784930)
Ironically, the patent licensing machinations have probably hastened Windows Phone's demise. IIRC at the time MS was making _billions_ (or at least hundreds of millions) off Android, more than Google itself. At some point MS execs must have thought, "why the hell do we need a phone that can't run Youtube"? It took some time for WP to die, but die it did, and I'm pretty sure it would not have died if succeeding in the mobile market was the only way to make money on mobile for MS. They would have poured billions into it, and it would take off. With the patents letting them suck the massive teat of Android they really had no skin in the game.

I worked at Google at the time, and I joked that if Apple were to go out of business and iPhones became unavailable, I'd have to go with a Windows phone. It was only partly a joke. WP had the consistency that Android never did, and never will have, and it had fluid, polished user experience even on the very low end.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by midnitewarrior on Sunday April 08, 2018 @01:08AM (#16784710)
Have you seen Oracle's patent lawsuit against Google over their misuse of Java in Android? Billions in damages if they win, and recent developments look like it could go that way. Google is already building an OS to replace Android.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by Too on Sunday April 08, 2018 @02:57AM (#16784992)
Which part of java is the suit about? The runtime, the library or the language? Would kotlin be a possible escape hatch for Google here in the future?
Re:I miss Windows Phone by stevefan1999 on Sunday April 08, 2018 @09:23PM (#16789603)
Just the library. Oracle said Google reimplementing Java API is an infringement of their IP because function prototypes should be regarded as protected properties as well.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by bko on Saturday April 07, 2018 @11:13AM (#16781067)
From the article cited regarding the YouTube app developed by Microsoft:

> The problems with that, according to Google, are three: the app enables users to download YouTube videos, prevents ads from being shown, and plays videos whose owners have set to only play on certain platforms. Microsoft’s app, Google says, violates the YouTube terms of service, and uses the YouTube logo in a way that contravenes the company’s branding guidelines.

Is this just an excuse used by Google, or did they really have these features? Because I could understand why Google doesn't want a service to demonitize their service. Why wouldn't Microsoft just remove those features? It seems like a reasonable response.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by prepend on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:00PM (#16781297)
Since it would be trivial for Goog to expose all of this functionality in their API, I consider all of this BS PR by google.

It would also be trivial for google to make a basic app for the 3rd biggest phone OS.

But since Google makes an OS and doesn’t want other OSes, any actions they have other than support are suspect.

It’s like when MS said that it was possible for PC sellers to not bundle IE. Sure it’s possible, but it was just BS because it was completely MS’ prerogative.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by WovenTales on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:32PM (#16781430)
Not only would it be possible, it's being done in NewPipe without touching the API at all (except perhaps the device restrictions; not sure what the status is on that). I'm sure there's clauses somewhere for using the API that prevent you from doing dual purpose acting as a simple, if specialized, browser, and using the logo itself was just asking for trouble, but it's revealing how much Google hides away and just hopes you don't notice.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by bko on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:31PM (#16781426)
I’m not sure I understand. Do you mean that their api prevented Microsoft from creating a YouTube app that confirms to their guidelines (shows ads and respects uploaded guidelines as to device? Is this still the case?

The download feature certainly could have been pulled from Microsoft

Re:I miss Windows Phone by prepend on Thursday April 12, 2018 @09:25PM (#16826424)
Google does not expose an api that supports ads. So third parties can’t build apps that conform to goog.

It’s kind of a dick move all around because it means no one can build (popular) YouTube ads except google. And they don’t build for platforms that threaten them unless they must.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by d6de964 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @04:28PM (#16782742)
Can somebody breakdown which companies are on each side of this corporate war? Is it Microsoft + Facebook vs Google + Apple?
Re:I miss Windows Phone by fencepost on Saturday April 07, 2018 @05:43PM (#16783170)
Why do you treat this as only having two sides?

In the "Platform" battlefields you have Microsoft, Apple and Google fighting for the end-users. On the infrastructure side Amazon is also making a play here with all of the AWS options and Google and Microsoft are also fighting there.

In the "Social" battlefield, you have Facebook, with Microsoft+LinkedIn+Xbox carving out some niches and Google flailing wildly at everything.

In the "Creepy Stalkering" battlefield (which overlaps some with Social) you have Facebook getting people to give up data and Google just silently watching .everything.you.do. muahahahaha. Facebook also watches as much as possible via website badges and sharing, but doesn't have near the reach of Google with searches + Analytics.

I'm sure there are other battlefields I'm not listing here including things like overlap into the offline world ("Political Influence" anyone?), but it's far from just a 2-sided battle.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by mixmastamyk on Saturday April 07, 2018 @04:58PM (#16782935)
Just reminded me of the loss of Dark Matter. :-/
Re:I miss Windows Phone by p992eiiej28 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:16PM (#16781359)
They’re not obliged to spend resources on making native apps

But they’re obliged to spend resources making open APIs?

Any actions they have are suspect because they’re a big fucking corporation that vacuums up our data and lobbies government for beneficial treatment

Let’s not wrap it up in overly customized excuses for their shit behavior. A more generally phrased definition will suffice and probably be more beneficial

If it’s just market assholery, that’s the market

If it’s acceptance of the reality they control us through plain behavior of buying and selling our data and buying influence, that’s broadly more captivating

Re:I miss Windows Phone by skinnymuch on Saturday April 07, 2018 @01:15PM (#16781635)
I remember Microsoft updated the app and definitely at least removed downloading. I think they did their best on fixing the other issues too. Google still made excuses.

The other infamous Google move towards Windows Phone was blocking access in certain ways to Google Maps.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by sydd on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:43PM (#16781487)
They released an update that fixed all these issues. Then Google banned the app again, and Microsoft gave up.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by Alterlife on Saturday April 07, 2018 @05:23PM (#16783069)
> lack of apps killed it

For me personally, this is not true. I had a windows phone for about a year and it sucked, and I do mean SUCKED for daily use. At the time, I didn't use apps apart from email.

Sure animations were smooth, but after the first two times looking at them, they are too slow and 'in your face', making the phone feel slow.

Live tiles were annoying rather than useful because often I couldn't tell what clicking on the tile would do. Whatever reviewers tell you, pictures are not as good as simple icons if you want to open an app fast. The only good thing is I think there was a way to turn them off.

Basic things like having a separate audio level for media vs ringtone were missing.

Even something as simple as swiping up to unlock the phone, you swipe up to pull the lock screen up and unlock the phone, but often when unlocking the phone one handed, I couldn't push it far enough; instead of unlocking, the shade would drop back down and bounce on the bottom of the screen. This happened a LOT and it was really annoying.

I tried to use it but it was a terrible, terrible, horrible experience.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by fencepost on Saturday April 07, 2018 @05:32PM (#16783113)
Basic things like having a separate audio level for media vs ringtone were missing.

What version were you using and when? Mine always had 2 settings ("Media + Apps" and "Ringer + Notifications"). For that matter, the fact that it brought up the media controls (at least to pause/advance) when you hit the volume buttons was very handy since it allowed control without unlocking.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by B1FF_PSUVM on Tuesday April 10, 2018 @03:50AM (#16799768)
IIRC, for 8.1 the controls were separate, but ringer volume was available on phone or main screen, and media volume inside apps/games.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by Alterlife on Saturday April 07, 2018 @06:17PM (#16783329)
It was a Nokia Lumia 630. I think it was on Windows 8.1.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by imajoo on Sunday April 08, 2018 @02:29AM (#16784917)
WP7 and WP8 did not have it, but WM10 did.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by hota_mazi on Saturday April 07, 2018 @11:16AM (#16781084)
It's a bit strange to fault Google for killing Windows Phone while it was essentially users making that choice.

The article is looking at Windows Phone with a lot of rosy glasses. Sure, WP had tiles and neither iOS nor Android have them, but WP had been behind on tons of other features that Android users had been enjoying for years, starting with apps being able to call each other indirectly (the intent system).

WP failed because it was late in the game but also because overall, it was inferior to Android on most fronts.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by ams6110 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @08:17PM (#16783825)
They were late, and while the Tile/Metro concept seemed to work OK on the phone, they also awkwardly forced it into the desktop version of Windows, where everyone I know hates it compared to the old Windows-7 style start menu. So people learned to hate Metro/Tiles, and when they saw it on phones at the Verizon store they looked at Android or iPhone instead.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by sydd on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:45PM (#16781495)
It was really Google's app monopoly that killed it.

Arguing that the users did it, is the same as arguing why people only use Google or Facebook.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by hota_mazi on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:46PM (#16781498)
Google was nowhere near having a monopoly when WP died.

And yes, people use Google and Facebook because these two tools are the best in their category, not because the companies performed some kind of brainwashing on users.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by blackoil on Saturday April 07, 2018 @01:22PM (#16781665)
Irrespective of how monopoly was acquired, it did influence choice of mobile OS. Youtube and Google Maps were of few universally used apps, not available on WP.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by CodeWriter23 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @08:14PM (#16783809)
Neither was Microsoft a monopoly when they got their eyes sued out and a consent decree slapped on them simply for making their browser the default browser on their own OS. A lot less than Google did to stifle competition from WP.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by hota_mazi on Sunday April 08, 2018 @12:20AM (#16784594)
Microsoft was definitely a monopoly when the antitrust lawsuit was filed against them. There can be no antitrust lawsuit if you're not a monopoly, it pretty much is a requirement for such a lawsuit to be brought.

It's perfectly legal (and healthy in a free trade economy) to be a monopoly.

What's illegal is leveraging that monopoly to enter other markets, which is what Microsoft attempted to do.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by michaelmrose on Sunday April 08, 2018 @03:05AM (#16785014)
Did you miss the episode whereby ms belatedly tried to own web servers / web development in order to ensure a Windows client was a prerequisite to participation in the web?
Re:I miss Windows Phone by vbezhenar on Saturday April 07, 2018 @11:42AM (#16781208)
I've read few impressions from Windows Phone users and they all liked it. It's a pity that it died. While I'm personally don't have much interest with it, competition never hurts. Currently iOS and Android basically divided the market: iOS for niche luxury phones and Android for average phones. I've found it hard to find Android with premium price ($1000), there are not enough phones to make a good choice, it seems like a lot of manufacturers just not interested with this market, for example.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by Zanni on Saturday April 07, 2018 @01:15PM (#16781632)
I switched from Android to the Windows Phone and greatly preferred it. I liked the look, the responsiveness, and the dearth of apps wasn't a problem initially. I was never a huge fan of live tiles, though, because I like my UI to stay still and let me focus on what I focus on. But what ultimately drove me away was the inexplicably shitty Kindle app. I read a lot on my phone, and the Kindle app would skip lines on page turns, for a very disorienting and frustrating reading experience.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by thaumasiotes on Saturday April 07, 2018 @02:05PM (#16781867)
I'm having the same problem recently with the Kindle app for Android...
Re:I miss Windows Phone by coldacid on Saturday April 07, 2018 @11:38PM (#16784476)
Amazon would rather you buy one of their devices instead of using your phone to read.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by thaumasiotes on Sunday April 08, 2018 @12:29AM (#16784625)
I seriously doubt this is the case. Amazon's business selling ebooks is much more significant than their business selling proprietary Android devices.

And the page turning problem also occurs on my Kindle Oasis.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by Zanni on Sunday April 08, 2018 @06:09AM (#16785452)
Huh. I had no idea the problem was this widespread. For the record, I've never had a problem on any iOS device or Kindle e-reader (iPhone 5s, iPhone 6, iPhone X, iPad, iPad 2, iPad mini, iPad Air, iPad Pro, Kindle Paperwhite, Kindle Voyage). I am stunned that it happens on the Oasis.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by thaumasiotes on Monday April 09, 2018 @03:42PM (#16796281)
If I were guessing, I'd guess that the problem is related to Amazon's new-ish feature of supporting page numbers as well as locations. My workaround for the page-turn text skipping issue is to jump to a nearby location (e.g. if my location before turning the page is 4384, try to jump to 4387). On some books, this isn't possible; there is some defined magic page-starting point and jumping to any nearby location means you jump to that point instead. This aggravates the problem.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by FractalLP on Saturday April 07, 2018 @08:04PM (#16783783)
Still using it and love it...certain services aren't working anymore though as they're being discontinued.

Very stable and responsive on hardware nowhere near what the current gen Android had.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by oldgun on Saturday April 07, 2018 @11:47AM (#16781237)
I don't think you should blame Google for putting resources into a platform of less than 1% of the market-share that's not built by Google itself.

Google has actually been pretty eager in developing iOS apps AFAIK, sometimes releasing it even sooner than Android platform. If Windows Phone really gained traction, maybe Google will develop apps for it too. Remember it's more of a service company than a hardware company.

But MS never got out of that vicious cycle. Can't shift blame to its competitors.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by Mononokay on Saturday April 07, 2018 @01:16PM (#16781637)
> Google has actually been pretty eager in developing iOS apps AFAIK, sometimes releasing it even sooner than Android platform. If Windows Phone really gained traction, maybe Google will develop apps for it too. Remember it's more of a service company than a hardware company.

Their support for iOS is second-class for more than a few apps; like Inbox for Gmail.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by saagarjha on Saturday April 07, 2018 @06:17PM (#16783327)
To be fair, it's not like Apple's updated all their apps for iPhone X either.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by prepend on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:01PM (#16781302)
How many resources would it take? Especially if Microsoft partnered on it.

This doesn’t make any sense since Google used to be really supportive of new platforms and services. This was back when goog was just playing around with using lock-in to their advantage

Re:I miss Windows Phone by severino on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:30PM (#16781422)
> Google didn't produce Windows Phone apps, which they're entitled to not do, but then Microsoft tried to make apps for Google's services[0] which Google also shut down

Well, you know, that's what Microsoft has been doing throughout its history, and still does. It's not bad when those giants get a taste of their own medicine.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by SmellyGeekBoy on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:32PM (#16781434)
Office and IE have been available for the Mac for a very long time now, I'm not sure what you're talking about...
Re:I miss Windows Phone by evilduck on Saturday April 07, 2018 @01:47PM (#16781772)
Office for Mac is generally regarded as inferior to the Windows versions and the Mac version of Internet Explorer was last released like 14 years ago. I’m not even sure it runs on Intel Macs.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by my123 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:39PM (#16781470)
Office was available for the Mac before Office for Windows even existed.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by __sr__ on Saturday April 07, 2018 @01:42PM (#16781743)
And it was left to languish for a couple of decades before the move to cloud centric multi-platform workflow left them with no other choice.

I am not a power user of MS Office, but the ones I know tell me that the macOS version still lacks features compared to Windows.

And lastly, where is MS Access for macOS?

Re:I miss Windows Phone by tiuPapa on Saturday April 07, 2018 @01:08PM (#16781607)
Are they available for Linux?
Re:I miss Windows Phone by zeusk on Saturday April 07, 2018 @01:20PM (#16781655)
No they're not because of multitude of reasons but they now use a open XML format that does way better interchange with openOffice etc. and don't actively try to shut down those products.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by __sr__ on Saturday April 07, 2018 @01:40PM (#16781728)
The keyword being now. It happened when they realised that they were going to be knocked off their pedestal if they didn’t open up - not when they were at the height of their power.

By the way, is the XML Office file format really open — to the extant where one can create a third party client which works as well as the official one without reverse engineering?

Re:I miss Windows Phone by zeusk on Saturday April 07, 2018 @06:48PM (#16783483)
now since:

Initial release 7 December 2006; 11 years ago

Re:I miss Windows Phone by __sr__ on Saturday April 07, 2018 @10:39PM (#16784302)
The demise had already started back then with the advent of Web apps and crappiness and delay of Vista. In fact, MS started losing its power and clout way back in early 2000s, even if the effects were not very evident until much later.

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/06/13/how-microsoft-lost...

Re:I miss Windows Phone by zeusk on Sunday April 08, 2018 @01:01AM (#16784694)
Sure, also this is the year of Linux? isn't it?
Re:I miss Windows Phone by __sr__ on Sunday April 08, 2018 @01:44AM (#16784796)
The year of the Linux on desktop/laptop is a fabulous myth - nothing more. Read the attached blog before posting sarcastic comments like this one.

On the other hand, Linux is pretty much everywhere other than desktop/laptop, which are becoming increasingly less relevant.

Perhaps demise is too strong a word, but decline from its status as the apex predator of the industry is more appropriate. MS is still powerful, but it is no longer the King.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by pjmlp on Sunday April 08, 2018 @04:59AM (#16785303)
Linux is irrelevant on mobiles.

Apple devices obviously don't run it, Android and ChromeOS might have Linux underneath but only expose Java, JavaScript, ANSI C/C++ lib and Android specific native APIs.

Android P could be released with a complete different kernel and only OEMs would notice, all user space apps would be kept running.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by __sr__ on Sunday April 08, 2018 @06:19AM (#16785468)
> Linux is irrelevant on mobiles

So is Windows. And on servers, Linux is the king.

The comment was in response to the sarcastic comment about The Year of Linux Desktop. I am not really debating Linux vs others here.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by pjmlp on Sunday April 08, 2018 @06:48AM (#16785533)
Actually Linux is the king on servers because it is major quality is not having to pay for licenses.

Our Java, .NET and C++ servers don't care 1 second on which OSes they are actually running.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by __sr__ on Sunday April 08, 2018 @08:11AM (#16785786)
And that is where you are horribly mistaken. Typical Java/.Net coders may not care about the underlying platform while coding, but people working with large scale real world applications do. Java/.Net may abstract away the APIs, they still have to use the underlying stack. Their performance is still dependent on the performance of the underlying stack.

I have seen the same application with drastically different performance characteristics on different platforms.

Linux is the king on the server because it has been heavily fine tuned for the server over the ages. The cost, while a factor, is not as relevant. Any company deploying large scale applications on Linux has to hire enough engineers to keep it running that the cost of Windows is largely offset. If it were just a matter of cost, we’d see more deployments of FreeBSD and the likes.

It is the same reason people stick to Java despite all its shortcomings.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by pjmlp on Sunday April 08, 2018 @11:52AM (#16786656)
We don't see BSD deployments thanks MIT licenses, which allow for companies to keep their forks and the old AT&T suit.

The only reason UNIX shops migrated to Linux was to avoid paying for workstations and migrate to Linux.

Companies like SGI dropped their UNIX and are having Linux forks, as a means to outsource development costs.

Likewise with Oracle dumping Solaris and migrating whatever is relevant to Oracle Linux.

In 100% of projects I have been involved, Linux was always chosen as means to reduce license costs, as developers do 100% of their work on Windows workstations.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by severino on Saturday April 07, 2018 @02:59PM (#16782191)
Well, I know Microsoft XML format has the word "Open" in its name. But is it open? Can other vendors achieve 100% compatibility with the official Office products' formats? I don't think so.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by mikekchar on Saturday April 07, 2018 @10:04PM (#16784179)
This comes up every once in a while. For a couple of years I worked on conversion filters for Word Perfect. The problem getting 100% compatibility has nothing at all to do with the "openness" of the file format. It has to do with the fact that file file format doesn't tell you how to render something -- the renderer does.

Just to give you an example, the file format tells you that there is a foot note. If the footnote doesn't fit on the page, then you have to paginate it (continue it on the next page). The file format doesn't tell you how or when to do that -- it just tells you that there is a footnote. Word happens to paginate footnotes incorrectly. Word Perfect paginates footnotes correctly. To import a Word document perfectly, somehow you have to break the pagination of the footnotes -- something that is practically impossible to do with a file importer.

Microsoft can't fix the pagination of footnotes because that's the way they've always done it. If they fixed the pagination, they would break decades of existing legal documents (which all have really long footnotes). They could add a new feature to paginate them correctly and tag them in the file format: For example "Here is a footnote. Paginate it correctly/incorrectly". I don't think they ever did that with footnotes, but they definitely did for a lot of other features (It's been over 10 years since I looked at the spec, so I can't give you a good example, unfortunately). Basically, you will see in the spec an option that says, "Render like Word 95", or something equivalent.

If you want to render Word documents perfectly (as well as your own), for each feature you need to be able to render it in your native style, and in style that Word has ever used -- even if these are fundamentally broken from a layout perspective. And then you have to add all of those Word styles to your file format, or else if you import it into your file format, you won't be able to save it.

Nobody does that, for obvious reasons. It's not Microsoft's fault. The opposite is exactly the same. That's why MS dug in their heels about not using Open Office file format -- it's an insane idea. I'm not a big fan of MS as a whole, but I interacted with the Word team a lot when I worked on conversions for Word Perfect. They were always extremely helpful -- to the point of sending me bug reports when I made a mistake on the conversions. They always knew that interoperability of their file format was only in their best interest and they did their best. Word is just a massive legacy system and they have their hands tied -- mainly because they always bend over backwards to maintain backwards compatibility for their customers.

I understand the feeling you are trying to get at, but in this case it is entirely misplaced.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by zeusk on Saturday April 07, 2018 @06:37PM (#16783430)
Google Docs and OpenOffice think so.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by nycdotnet on Saturday April 07, 2018 @10:11PM (#16784206)
it’s pk zipped xml.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by xorcist on Sunday April 08, 2018 @04:29AM (#16785213)
Have you looked at the actual XML? Parts of it are just containers for binary data. How do you parse a tag that basically means base64-encoded Word6-style Compound Data? Good luck with that.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by severino on Saturday April 07, 2018 @01:12PM (#16781619)
I'm talking about all the Microsoft software available only for Windows, and all the closed services they won't let you use without the official client. I think it's the same story.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by mhermher on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:47PM (#16781503)
Aside from the Google issue, I think honestly the biggest thing is that MS was still charging OEMs a licensing fee where Android wasn't. They eventually let go of the fee, but it was too late. I think that killed WP more than anything.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by mavhc on Saturday April 07, 2018 @02:05PM (#16781870)
Android isn't, but surely Google is for having the google play store, services, and apps?
Re:I miss Windows Phone by mhermher on Saturday April 07, 2018 @03:18PM (#16782291)
From what I remember, no. I think play services is a separate license which is also free, as long as you sign something called the Open Handset Agreement (or something like that), which basically forces OEMs to follow a bunch of rules about pre-installed/default apps and home screen placement, etc.

The one example I remember being mentioned at some point is that the google search bar widget must be on the first home page of any phone sold by OEMs (of course users are free to change that if they wish). Other little things like that. Instead of making money from licenses, Google makes money by nudging users into its ad-revenue generating services.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by ocdtrekkie on Saturday April 07, 2018 @02:35PM (#16782062)
Google doesn't collect a paid license fee for Google Apps on Android, but they have fairly significant nonmonetary agreements, essentially barring the OEMs from using Google's competitors, making Google's products the default, dictating where Google Apps must be placed on the home screen, etc.

Some of the larger OEMs might be able to negotiate revenue sharing agreements from Play purchases, but inside the Google Apps is definitely where Google makes its money, on app sales and ad targeting based on data collected by Google hoovering up everyone's mobile data and location.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by giancarlostoro on Saturday April 07, 2018 @04:38PM (#16782805)
I would love to see Microsoft do a fully open source Mobile OS now that they've shown to be mobile friendly. Maybe based off of BSD or something to take advantage of some of the things BSD does differently from Linux
Re:I miss Windows Phone by bitmapbrother on Saturday April 07, 2018 @09:28PM (#16784043)
Because this time it's really going to be different, right? The story always ends the same with red all over your balance sheet. They will never have the developers or ecosystem.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by giancarlostoro on Saturday April 07, 2018 @11:58PM (#16784530)
People don't want yet another close sourced OS like iOS, they want something open like Android. Microsoft has the resources to work with other bigger service providers. Also a lot of corporations use Microsoft's solutions like Outlook and Office 365. They could provide a strong focus on corporate customers sorta like how Blackberry had that reputation. Point is, we got two options for smart phones, we need more.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by Khaine on Sunday April 08, 2018 @01:16AM (#16784733)
Who are these people? What is the size of that market?

The fact is that iPhones and iOS dominate the revenue of the mobile market[1]. iPhone users have incredibly high customer satisfaction numbers[2] and are unlikely to switch, so essentially you are competing against Android which is already "open". Seems like an easy way to loose a ton of money to me.

[1] https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-the-iphone-x-drives-apples...

[2] https://marketrealist.com/2017/06/could-apples-iphone-8-driv...

[3] https://www.imore.com/apple-seeing-record-rate-android-users...

Re:I miss Windows Phone by bitmapbrother on Sunday April 08, 2018 @01:51AM (#16784813)
>People don't want yet another close sourced OS like iOS, they want something open like Android

So you've conducted a poll and asked what people want? People don't care if the OS is open or closed source. In fact, the extreme majority wouldn't even know what you're talking about. They care about having access to the apps and services they want. Microsoft failed with a closed source OS and they'll fail even harder with an open one too.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by asveikau on Sunday April 08, 2018 @12:10AM (#16784567)
Your casual review conveniently left out trying out the app dev platform, which mostly used frameworks that were completely separate from what first party apps got. When wp7 launched the default blank app in Visual Studio took absurdly long to load and didn't have fancy things like ... wait for it ... sockets. There was some gradual and some big improvement over time, so maybe that is a bit of hyperbole, but it is a fairly representative example of the spirit throughout the lifetime of the product.

My thesis is that even if you wanted to make a very good WP app, you needed to work harder and be more of an expert than if you wanted a decent app on other platforms, and some device capabilities would be off the table. Too many people attribute the lack of apps to the lack of interest, which sure is a big factor, but nobody asks if it was technically feasible to have a large number of decent apps.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by golfer on Saturday April 07, 2018 @02:41PM (#16782093)
Your $30 phone likely cost far more to build, perhaps hundreds. You bought it at a huge discount probably, since you said it was after the platform was dead.

Therefore, this statement doesn't make sense to me:

"For a $30 phone, it was incredibly fast and smooth."

Re:I miss Windows Phone by maxsilver on Saturday April 07, 2018 @03:10PM (#16782243)
> Your $30 phone likely cost far more to build, perhaps hundreds

When the platform was still new and well supported, and without any discounts or contracts, you could get Windows Phones at the ~$100 USD price that were every bit as fast and fluid as described. Phones like the Lumia 520 / 530 / 535 series.

So, if the discounted price bothers you, just read it as "For a $100 phone", as that was the brand-new day-one price at the time, with no subsidies / discounts / contract / credit-checks / loss write-off / etc.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by ams6110 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @08:22PM (#16783842)
Are you sure it wasn't sold at a loss even then, just to try to establish market share?
Re:I miss Windows Phone by pgeorgi on Saturday April 07, 2018 @11:06AM (#16781033)
> Microsoft tried to make apps for Google's services

Where "apps" means "app", and "Google's services" means "YouTube".

Re:I miss Windows Phone by spikej on Saturday April 07, 2018 @11:10AM (#16781051)
I missed not having Google Drive
Re:I miss Windows Phone by chengiz on Saturday April 07, 2018 @02:18PM (#16781944)
I bought my Nokia 635 for $50 off Ebay and still use it. I've hated all Android phones I've used before, so dont want to switch unless I can no longer handle it, and I dont want to pay premium for Apple. The WP OS is pretty awesome, and the phone is rock solid. I use an old Nexus 4 which I never liked for Chromecast purposes, a standalone GPS, and WP for everything else. It works just fine.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by mc32 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:18PM (#16781365)
The biggest thing I miss from Winmo is the universal back button. You always knew where "back" was. No having to scroll back up, no having to figure out where this app has the "back" feature. Always one known place.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by bitmapbrother on Saturday April 07, 2018 @09:18PM (#16784014)
>For a $30 phone, it was incredibly fast and smooth.

No it wasn't. As the previous owner of 2 windows phones the platform was anything but fast or smooth, but it sure did like resuming a lot. You should upload a video of your phone on YouTube so that we can count all of the frame drops and stutters. And those slow superfluous animations they used still couldn't mask all of the hitches.

>The tile interface worked well (particularly information dense relative to notification dots/counts on icons we're seeing now), the onscreen keyboard is the best I've ever used (even to this day), and the way updates were delivered (direct from Microsoft, not the network operator or OEM) was a breath of fresh air from Android.

Firmware updates aren't provided by Microsoft and can only be updated by the OEM.

>As anyone and everyone will tell you, lack of apps killed it. In no small part because Google was using their market position to squish it (yes, I appreciate the irony). Google didn't produce Windows Phone apps, which they're entitled to not do, but then Microsoft tried to make apps for Google's services[0] which Google also shut down.

Windows phone supporters should really stop trying to blame Google for the incompetence of Microsoft. Microsoft controlled their own fate and they alone are responsible for its demise. From their constant reboots, their abandonment of the previous OS, the constant changes to the development and tooling that did nothing but confuse and frustrate developers and they even had the arrogance to tell OEM's what they could and could not do with their OS.

If there's anything Windows phone should be remembered for it's how it systematically destroyed Nokia's device division like a cancer.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by notadoc on Saturday April 07, 2018 @04:51PM (#16782887)
>As anyone and everyone will tell you, lack of apps killed it.

I am not convinced of this. Aside from the widely used social networking apps, most people just use default apps on their phones for email, the web, and text messaging. Kids play games too, I suppose.

To me, it never felt like Microsoft made a sincere push for establishing Windows Phone into the market. Aggressive subsidies, pricing, and features should have been able to get a footprint. They pulled it off with Xbox, and of course with PCs, so they could certainly do it again with commoditized phone hardware if they were committed to it.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by mxfh on Saturday April 07, 2018 @04:56PM (#16782929)
I had a few windows phones and it was not the lack of apps in my opinion, but a in a big part, a badly managed store policy that incentivized inflating numbers over actual apps. Searching for any term gave you 4/5 of trash, nonfunctional trash if you were lucky.

Discovery was fundamentally broken, if you had no good idea of what you where doing. Around 2014/2015 the ecosystem had pretty much no apps or at least functionality missing, besides snapchat and instagram (which was added at some point).

Re:I miss Windows Phone by fencepost on Saturday April 07, 2018 @06:02PM (#16783255)
most people just use default apps on their phones for email, the web, and text messaging

The email client was fine IIRC, particularly if you were connecting to Exchange for work since it's Outlook. For Gmail on the other hand, well, it was IMAP. I'm pretty sure that's improved a lot over the years, but for a long time I think there was a lot that was broken about using Gmail with IMAP - little things like IMAP not being so great for handling tags.

The web browser situation was pretty poor. Edge for a long time was what you'd expect from a brand-new written-from-scratch browser - immature and not really ready for prime time. Unfortunately there weren't any other options that were really great either (Squirrel Browser? Monument? I think that's it) and nothing with a significant development team behind it.

Text messaging was interesting - IIRC, it was a "Model T color choice" situation. You used the built-in messaging app, because security features meant that there not only were not any others but that there could not be any others. I'm not sure about iOS, but on Android there are some very successful alternative messaging apps (Textra, Handcent, Go, maybe some others).

Re:I miss Windows Phone by saagarjha on Saturday April 07, 2018 @06:22PM (#16783354)
On iOS the only program that's allowed to send messages is Messages, so there are no third-party text message apps.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by cc81 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @05:51PM (#16783209)
I had one and for me it was absolutely the lack of apps and I think that is the way for most people. Even if I don't use many it was pretty annoying not to be able to use my banks app, a good workout app or a local taxi company app.

None of those are critical but thing like that is annoying.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by rootusrootus on Saturday April 07, 2018 @11:20AM (#16781103)
Most likely Apple would make a similar license arrangement with Bing.

But what would really be neat is if they bought DuckDuckGo instead, made it the search engine of choice, and expanded on it's abilities. Apple has quite a lot of cash to throw at such a problem and DDG would line up nicely with their stance on privacy.

I wouldn't be surprised if they've given something like that serious consideration. Much the way Google tries to break Apple's grip on high-end smartphones, Apple probably wants to keep some leverage of their own.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by mattnewport on Saturday April 07, 2018 @11:25AM (#16781129)
That wouldn't be good, then I'd have to stop using DuckDuckGo. Avoiding Apple products is currently much easier than avoiding Google products (though after a concerted effort I'm now mostly managing that too) but if they bought DuckDuckGo I'd have to find another search engine.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by matthewmacleod on Saturday April 07, 2018 @11:46AM (#16781230)
Why?
Re:I miss Windows Phone by mattnewport on Saturday April 07, 2018 @11:55AM (#16781273)
Why what? Why would I have to stop using DuckDuckGo? Because I don't use Apple products. Why don't I use Apple products? Many reasons.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by saagarjha on Saturday April 07, 2018 @06:20PM (#16783345)
I sort of agree with the other reply (that's dead now), if not with the way they said it. Your response provides next to no information. Maybe you could list some of the reasons why you don't use Apple products? "Many reasons" provides no insight, which is especially annoying because the parent comment to yours was explicitly asking for you to explain your reasoning.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by mattnewport on Saturday April 07, 2018 @07:05PM (#16783572)
All the obvious ones: closed platforms, walled gardens, lack of repair or upgradeability, overpriced hardware, general user and developer hostility, excessive secrecy, arrogance, security bugs, planned obsolescence. Then there's the more subjective stuff: I find their UIs appalling and I'm not a fan of their design aesthetic.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by saagarjha on Sunday April 08, 2018 @01:23AM (#16784751)
But how many of these would apply to DuckDuckGo under Apple? Are you saying that they'd wall it off to "Apple ecosystem users" only? There's no upgradeability or hardware or secrecy here.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by bitmapbrother on Saturday April 07, 2018 @09:30PM (#16784046)
>But what would really be neat is if they bought DuckDuckGo instead, made it the search engine of choice, and expanded on it's abilities.

So they should buy DDG and get back into the ad business? I'm sure that would play out well.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by enitihas on Saturday April 07, 2018 @10:55AM (#16780971)
Given the amount that Google pays to Apple to remain the default search engine on the iPhone, I really doubt they would be willing to take that risk.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by dep_b on Saturday April 07, 2018 @11:49AM (#16781246)
iOS users are the biggest cash cows for e-commerce in the US. Since Google is ad-driven and ads are ultimately paid by people that actually buy stuff it would lower the value of Google overnight by 30%.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by agumonkey on Saturday April 07, 2018 @01:33PM (#16781698)
I don't know why I never got a WP phone. I knew it has a lot of benefits in terms of UX. But somehow I feared MS way of doing software more than Google. So even if they provided lots of stuff I wouldn't be attracted to their phones.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by barbs on Saturday April 07, 2018 @09:37PM (#16784078)
> the onscreen keyboard is the best I've ever used

The article mentioned this as well - could you please elaborate on why the Windows keyboard is so good? I've used an Android phone for 4 years and still find the keyboard fiddly, so would love to learn about alternatives.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by __sr__ on Saturday April 07, 2018 @10:44PM (#16784319)
It’s hard to quantify, you have to use it to understand the difference. IMO BlackBerry had the best onscreen keyboard, followed very closely by Windows Phone. And while iOS keyboard has issues with Autocorrect, it’s gotten a lot better in the recent days and is still miles ahead of Android keyboard. There is a good reason third party keyboards are so popular on Android while most people stick to the stock one on iOS despite third party keyboards being available on the platform for many years now.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by throwafk81 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @01:17PM (#16781640)
Most of the arguments I read here are the same one: WP was fast and smooth. But it was not particularly fast, you are simply comparing it to Android, which fucking sucks.

And other than that, it had no other redeeming qualities.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by __sr__ on Saturday April 07, 2018 @01:51PM (#16781799)
Being better than Android is a low bar to clear. Android was, and remains, a Frankenstein’s monster[1] which was hastily cobbled together at Google to capitalise on the new marked created by the iPhone before MS could lock them out of it. In fact, if MS had brought WP 8 sometime in 2010, the story would be a lot different.

[1] It is evident by the fact that Google is still trying to fix the fundamentals like permissions, updates etc. Android is essentially what you get when you try to cram an OS primarily used on servers and high end workstations on a mobile phone and pair it with a programming environment which is also used primarily used on servers by implementing a quick and dirty runtime from scratch.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by bitmapbrother on Saturday April 07, 2018 @09:44PM (#16784099)
>Being better than Android is a low bar to clear.

I'd ask you to cite some examples of why Android is a "low bar to clear", but I doubt I'd get back anything of substance.

>Android was, and remains, a Frankenstein’s monster[1] which was hastily cobbled together at Google to capitalise on the new marked created by the iPhone before MS could lock them out of it.

Could you point to the Android github examples that support your claims that Android is a Frankenstein’s monster which was hastily cobbled together? You see, that's the nice thing about being an open source OS - you can actually see the source code and call out people for making ridiculous comments about things they have no idea of what they're talking about.

>In fact, if MS had brought WP 8 sometime in 2010, the story would be a lot different.

No it wouldn't have. It would have played out exactly the way it did.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by pjmlp on Sunday April 08, 2018 @05:24AM (#16785368)
So easy for anyone that has suffered throught Android development.

Starting with Eclipse, then rebooting the whole development environment just because some management guys happened to be InteliJ users.

Several years later there are still Eclipse based tools, like the graphical manifest editor, that haven't been replicated in Studio.

NDK is treated as a 20% project, done by an handfull of engineers.

Devs were left in the cold when the migration away from Eclipse was decided. It was only due to the coincidence of Clion being developed, that Studio eventually got C++ support.

The amount of cruft on NDK build tools is a joke, already with 4 official variations.

The decision to use Gradle has made "how to optimize builds" a recorrent topic in any major Android conference.

Google teams like Android development build tools so much that they rather use blaze, throwing yet another build tool into the mix.

There isn't a single release of Android Studio or the Support Library, that isn't followed by bug related complaints on online forums, despite being several weeks, months, in testing phase.

Their initial emulator implementations was so lousy, that it required the public shame of Genymotion and Microsoft doing a better job for Google actually improving theirs.

There was so much more to rant about, but this is already quite long.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by bitmapbrother on Monday April 09, 2018 @10:13PM (#16798516)
>So easy for anyone that has suffered throught Android development.

The pain of Windows phone development was significantly worse especially when you consider they kept on changing it every year because of their inferior development environment and tooling.

>Starting with Eclipse, then rebooting the whole development environment just because some management guys happened to be InteliJ users.

Google switched IDE's. Microsoft changed their development environment and tooling each time they decided to osbourne their still born OS.

>NDK is treated as a 20% project, done by an handfull of engineers.

Well, at least they stuck with it instead of chucking it to the curb each year and starting over.

>Devs were left in the cold when the migration away from Eclipse was decided. It was only due to the coincidence of Clion being developed, that Studio eventually got C++ support.

Isn't being left in the cold an annual event for Windows phone developers?

>The decision to use Gradle has made "how to optimize builds" a recorrent topic in any major Android conference.

This is in contrast to the Windows phone .build conference where there were no sessions because no one was building Windows phone apps.

>Google teams like Android development build tools so much that they rather use blaze, throwing yet another build tool into the mix.

Isn't choice good.

>There isn't a single release of Android Studio or the Support Library, that isn't followed by bug related complaints on online forums, despite being several weeks, months, in testing phase.

Because XCode and Visual Studio are bug free when new versions are released, right? Oh wait.

>Their initial emulator implementations was so lousy, that it required the public shame of Genymotion and Microsoft doing a better job for Google actually improving theirs.

Google has to support 3 platforms unlike Microsoft who couldn't even support 1.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by pjmlp on Tuesday April 10, 2018 @03:06AM (#16799591)
> The pain of Windows phone development was significantly worse especially when you consider they kept on changing it every year because of their inferior development environment and tooling.

Vastly superior to Android Studio.

> Google switched IDE's. Microsoft changed their development environment and tooling each time they decided to osbourne their still born OS.

Google replaces Android Studio plugins at each major release.

Profilers, Gradle configurations, IDE plugins

> Well, at least they stuck with it instead of chucking it to the curb each year and starting over.

It already started over 4 times, with incompatible build systems.

> Isn't being left in the cold an annual event for Windows phone developers?

Not as much as at Google IO. Oh sorry, maybe you are right we don't feel the cold as we are taking care of our sun burns.

> This is in contrast to the Windows phone .build conference where there were no sessions because no one was building Windows phone apps.

There is no such thing as Windows Phone specific conference, there is only BUILD conference, Connect conference and Windows Developer days.

> Isn't choice good.

Not when it increases development costs.

> Because XCode and Visual Studio are bug free when new versions are released, right? Oh wait.

Android Studio wins in bug counts.

> Google has to support 3 platforms unlike Microsoft who couldn't even support 1.

Strangely, you cleverly forgot to mention Genymotion.

As for Microsoft their Android Emulator still runs better than Google's on Windows.

Maybe Google needs to do less inverted balanced tree whiteboard interview exercises and more OS related stuff.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by bitmapbrother on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @12:16AM (#16807990)
>Vastly superior to Android Studio.

Last time I installed Visual Studio that pig sprayed 30 GB of garbage all over my SSD.

>Google replaces Android Studio plugins at each major release.

It's how the IDE is updated with new features. It also doesn't need third party plugins, like Resharper, to actually make it useful.

>It already started over 4 times, with incompatible build systems.

How many build systems did Windows phone have again? Be sure to factor in the Silverlight clusterfuck.

>Not as much as at Google IO. Oh sorry, maybe you are right we don't feel the cold as we are taking care of our sun burns.

At least they have sunny weather as opposed to depressing weather followed by depressing keynotes. Hey, let's open with a 2 hour Azure demo. Did people actually pay to go to this?

>There is no such thing as Windows Phone specific conference, there is only BUILD conference, Connect conference and Windows Developer days.

Which is why I specified Build.

>Android Studio wins in bug counts.

I'll take that bet any day. I've used Xcode and it has its fair share of bugs. As for VS, when you're spraying 30GB of files your bound to have a clusterfuck of bugs.

>Strangely, you cleverly forgot to mention Genymotion.

Really? Do they also make an IDE for all 3 platforms?

>As for Microsoft their Android Emulator still runs better than Google's on Windows.

No it doesn't. It's not even comparable. Perhaps you should install the Android Emulator one of these days and compare them. In fact, I'm not even sure the Microsoft Emulator even works anymore. Do they even update it?

>Maybe Google needs to do less inverted balanced tree whiteboard interview exercises and more OS related stuff.

They have Android, Chrome OS and Fuschsia so they seem to be doing well on the OS front. As for Windows, you better hope Microsoft is prepared for the release of a free, modern, real time microkernel OS with a capabilities based security model.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by pjmlp on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @09:45AM (#16810968)
Apparently the same 30 GB aren't garbage on Android SDK's case.

Resharper?! No thanks, I want my Visual Studio to actually work.

When I want to try to take off with my laptop I start Android Studio instead.

Your lack your knowledge about Genymotion supported platforms shows again that you never developed for Android.

You mean installing the emulator created after the public shame from Genymotion and Microsoft?

As someone with actual Android developing experience, I execute it quite often, thank you very much for the suggestion.

Chrome OS, with a market restricted to US schools, ignored everywhere else.

Fuchsia, an OS that is yet to move beyond alpha stage.

Yeah, very successful indeed.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by bitmapbrother on Thursday April 12, 2018 @12:56AM (#16818111)
>Apparently the same 30 GB aren't garbage on Android SDK's case.

My current install size is 12 GB. As for Visual Studio, when it came time to uninstall that pig of a development environment I actually had to go to Programs and Features and manually uninstall over 30-40 apps.

>Resharper?! No thanks, I want my Visual Studio to actually work.

30 plus GB's of data and they still need plugins to make it useful.

>When I want to try to take off with my laptop I start Android Studio instead.

You should really try and invest in an SSD. Android Studio launches in 8 seconds for me. Not that you actually use AS or would actually know.

>Your lack your knowledge about Genymotion supported platforms shows again that you never developed for Android.

On the contrary, the ignorance you've embarrassingly displayed shows you're either incompetent or have never used the platform.

>You mean installing the emulator created after the public shame from Genymotion and Microsoft?

Public shame is having to use Silverlight, a Flash rip off much like C# was a Java ripoff, to write Windows phone apps.

>As someone with actual Android developing experience, I execute it quite often, thank you very much for the suggestion.

I very much doubt that.

>Chrome OS, with a market restricted to US schools, ignored everywhere else.

Chrome OS decimated Microsoft in education and they'll do so elsewhere once they branch out.

>Fuchsia, an OS that is yet to move beyond alpha stage.

Reminds me of the time Microsoft said they weren't worried about Android. It's going to be nice watching Google destroy another one of their revenue streams.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by realusername on Saturday April 07, 2018 @11:11PM (#16784423)
> I'd ask you to cite some examples of why Android is a "low bar to clear", but I doubt I'd get back anything of substance.

Manufacturers can do mostly what they want without any downsides so at the end you just end up with ROMs similar in quality to WinXP themes. The Android APIs themselves are just layer and layer of hacks and inconsistencies on top of each other which is the main reason why most of the Android apps look so ugly in the first place.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by bitmapbrother on Sunday April 08, 2018 @02:07AM (#16784855)
>Manufacturers can do mostly what they want without any downsides

No they can't. They need to pass the CTS and VTS.

>so at the end you just end up with ROMs similar in quality to WinXP themes.

When was the last time you saw an Android phone? 2008? Name those WinXP themed OEM skins.

>The Android APIs themselves are just layer and layer of hacks and inconsistencies on top of each other

Considering all of the bugs and security issues iOS has had I would have to give that award to iOS.

>which is the main reason why most of the Android apps look so ugly in the first place.

Not only do Android apps look better, but they also take up considerably less space than their bloated iOS counterparts.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by realusername on Sunday April 08, 2018 @03:03AM (#16785007)
> No they can't. They need to pass the CTS and VTS.

Well then, the CTS and VTS are so weak they are useless then.

> When was the last time you saw an Android phone? 2008? Name those WinXP themed OEM skins.

Have you worked with Samsung or a no-name Chinese brand? There's plenty of errors arising from bad ROMs customising low-level stuff they should not do.

> Considering all of the bugs and security issues iOS has had I would have to give that award to iOS.

At least iOS fixes them and they can update their devices.

> Not only do Android apps look better, but they also take up considerably less space than their bloated iOS counterparts.

That's only for the top-notch part of the Store, the rest is just a dimension below iOS in term of usability (and I say this using only Android). The reason being that you need more dev time to have the same result on Android compared to iOS.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by bitmapbrother on Monday April 09, 2018 @10:27PM (#16798573)
>Well then, the CTS and VTS are so weak they are useless then.

No they're not as they enforce and verify Android compatibility.

>Have you worked with Samsung or a no-name Chinese brand? There's plenty of errors arising from bad ROMs customising low-level stuff they should not do.

Yes, and there is no WinXP theme resemblance. So, once again, where are the links to these Android Phones with WinXP like themes?

>At least iOS fixes them and they can update their devices.

So does Google with 3 years of OS and security updates for their Pixel phones.

>That's only for the top-notch part of the Store, the rest is just a dimension below iOS in term of usability (and I say this using only Android). The reason being that you need more dev time to have the same result on Android compared to iOS.

The problem with iOS apps is that the top apps seem to think their a special snowflake and that they must develop their own UI and UX to differentiate themselves. The end result is an app that doesn't follow Apple's Human Interface Design guidelines and looks and navigates completely different from every other app. And then there's the garbage apps that are blown up on an iPad because Apple didn't understand Pixel density independence.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by tehlike on Saturday April 07, 2018 @01:23PM (#16781667)
Fast, smooth, and had very robust development environment. One thing Microsoft knows how is to develop a language/platform (.net, for example), and provide tooling around that. 5 years ago, Visual Studio was years ahead of what today's mobile tools can do.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by bitmapbrother on Saturday April 07, 2018 @09:46PM (#16784106)
Did you even develop for windows phone? Because it's like you have no idea of what the development process entailed or how frequently they changed it.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by pjmlp on Sunday April 08, 2018 @05:26AM (#16785371)
Still way less how Google handles Android development, where recommended API in version X, turns out legacy in version X+1, replaced in X+2, but all need to be supported thanks to lack of updates.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by bitmapbrother on Monday April 09, 2018 @09:28PM (#16798333)
Unlike the chaos, constant churn and developer frustration of Windows Phone development, Android development hasn't needed to osbourne their development environment and tools every year because of incompetence.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by pjmlp on Tuesday April 10, 2018 @03:12AM (#16799619)
Instead they show incompetence at stuff like fragments, replacing build systems, broken Gradle builds at each update, outdated documentation, broken Android Studio and Support library releases, removing AS plugins without documenting how to work with them gone, adding PWAs and Flutter to the mix, ...

Which so much Android love I am curious to see how many apps you have released, since you seem to like the experience so much.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by bitmapbrother on Tuesday April 10, 2018 @11:38PM (#16807847)
Incompetence was trying to convince developers to use that Flash ripoff Silverlight for mobile app development or trying to debug that horrible XAML pile of garbage or trying to build UI's with that bug infested piece of garbage expression studio. With Windows phone development you could never get comfortable because they were always osbourning the OS once they realized what a piece of garbage it was.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by pjmlp on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @09:26AM (#16810838)
As expected, just bloody hate towards Microsoft and Google advocacy without Android development experience.

Have you forgotten to write Microsoft as M$?

Re:I miss Windows Phone by bitmapbrother on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @10:08PM (#16817451)
It's amusing how forgetful you are of all of the Windows phone development environment failures and the nightmares it entailed for developers, but somehow have Android development issues burned into your brain. I'm guessing you still harbor resentment towards Google for the failure of Windows phone. In time you'll eventually recognize that it was all due to the incompetence of Microsoft.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by tehlike on Sunday April 08, 2018 @05:58PM (#16788700)
Yes, i did. I have also done android.
Re:I miss Windows Phone by throwafk81 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @01:26PM (#16781675)
I hope you’re kidding with the dev environment thing. WP died because they changed everything completely with every OS release.

Not to mention that to develop an app they required you to have Hyper-V, which is only available in Pro editions of Windows and CPUs with VT-x.

Re:I miss Windows Phone by tehlike on Saturday April 07, 2018 @02:21PM (#16781968)
I was definitely not kidding. 10+ years of c# experience, and 5+ years of android, and you can see the difference between the two.

Hyper-V and so on, i certainly do not remember as I had them anyway, but talking about purely the dev env and ease of platform to me tells it all.

Android has not been written from "application dev" pov. With all these contexts, application contexts, leaky abstractions all over, it certainly is not a robust platform.