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Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by mrtksn on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @05:32AM (#16535495)
The short version of the story is that grid electricity in Europe is produced by rotating the turbines 50 times a second and that's where the 50Hz AC electricity comes from.

Apparently to match the demand at given instance electricity plants rotate their turbines a bit faster or a bit slower instead of switching a complete plant on and off[edit: this is not exactly right, see the reply below], which results in slight deviations from the 50Hz standard but it is fine as long as it stays between the limits.

At the end of the day, as the demand increases and decreases, the average frequency would be 50Hz and engineers took advantage of that fact to create clocks that may not be accurate to the second but accurate on average. How do they do that? They count the change in the electricity and assume that 50 changes are exactly 1 second.

Unfortunately, due to political issues in the Balkans, the grid was undersupplied or oversupplied for a prolonged period and this created a deviation from the average of 50Hz and the clocks that depend on this average to be 50Hz also lost accuracy that currently amounts to 6 minutes.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by Slartie on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @06:19AM (#16535681)
> Apparently to match the demand at given instance electricity plants rotate their turbines a bit faster or a bit slower instead of switching a complete plant on and off, which results in slight deviations from the 50Hz standard but it is fine as long as it stays between the limits.

This is slightly imprecise. It actually works the other way round: the demand is "communicated" through the network by slight changes in the frequency.

This can be described best for the example of steam-based generators, as they are typical for the majority of coal/gas/oil/nuclear power plants. When demand for electricity grows, for example because a new factory is powered up, the turbines in the power plants are experiencing larger forces attempting to slow them down, starting with the power plant closest to the new factory.

The speed (and thus the frequency) is constantly measured, and if it drops, the steam valve is opened just a tiny bit more to counteract the drop. If this is not possible because the power plant is already at maximum output, either other power plants have to take the load (and the electricity is then routed through the network to the factory) or additional power plants may have to be added to the network.

The important thing is: the frequency change is a means of communication, it originates from demand changes, and because the entire network is kept in sync, it works to communicate demand changes across the entire network. Power plants providing energy to a sub-part of the entire network always attempt to run their turbines with the exact same speed of 50 rotations per second, which should ideally always conform to the frequency in all other sub-networks that a specific sub-network is attached to.

If just one of these sub-networks does not perform its duty of re-establishing 50 Hertz by powering up their own plant output, the rest of the network must either channel enough power into this sub-network to allow its local generators to re-establish 50 rotations per second by taking some of the load off of them or - if that is not possible or decided against - must also deliberately drop their frequency (and thus the rotational speed of their generators) to match the sub-network that is deviating.

The only alternative to this would be to drop off the deviating sub-network entirely, but that is usually only done in extreme cases of deviation.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by CompelTechnic on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @08:16AM (#16536121)
I have a question about the power grid I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to. I hope someone here can help.

If the USA's power grid is about 4,000,000 meters wide, and the electric signal propagates at roughly the speed of light (3 x 10^8 m/s) (https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/358894/speed-of-...), then it will take roughly .013 seconds for the electrical signal to reach from one station to another. This is a lot out of phase! (the period of 60 Hz is .016 sec) How is this managed?

If two generating stations on opposite ends of the country are both contributing to the electrical signal, how is this time lag accounted for? I have two guesses:

1. The power network is "mapped" such that there is one central generating station and all other generating stations are time lagged based on their graph distance from this generating station

2. All stations try to generate simultaneously, with their output signals interfering with eachother to a certain degree. This might not matter much because their local loads dampen the strength of their signal.

Either way seems to introduce inefficiencies.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by pjc50 on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @08:47AM (#16536256)
Synchronisation is purely local. They are, from the point of view of a sky observer, out of phase by the amount you say, but that doesn't matter. Each generator need only sync up at the time of connection.

Imagine you are on half a tandem bicycle. You are in a room with the chain of the tandem vanishing beyond the wall. You can't see, but clearly someone else is pedalling the thing as the pedals are rotating. Getting on it is tricky, as you have to rotate your feet at the right speed, but once you're on you can sit there and let it carry them round - or you can start applying pressure through your feet to do work and accelerate the chain system.

At this point you discover the thing on the other end of the chain is not a person but a 60Hz synchronous motor-generator. Congratulations, you are in sync with the grid and (when pushing on the pedals) contributing power.

(A corollary of this is that if your grid connection is down or the grid is split into two pieces, you can't start up again until you get a grid input to know you're in phase. See "black start" for details on this.)

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by gpvos on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @09:10AM (#16536403)
Okay, but what if you are at point A, and connected to points B and C, which are 1000 km away from you and also 1000 km away from each other, and connected to each other. Now if you would synchronize with B and C, then seen from the sky B and C would be in sync with each other because they're at the same distance from you. But how would B and C then transfer power over the 1000 km link between each other without phase problems?
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by mjevans on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @04:23PM (#16540030)
Short version: it doesn't.

It's like a very long pipe with standing water in it. AC power is like attaching a pump column at one point and adding/removing pressure at just that point. This creates a /wave/ of energy that propagates, but the actual water (electrons) do not. It's more accurate to say they vibrate.

Continuing the metaphor, power plants increase the amplitude of this sloshing wave, and must be synchronized to the phase of the wave /where they connect/ (in order to be additive instead of subtractive). Consumers of the power are always subtractive, '(active/passive) power factor correction' in switching power supplies is about attempting to keep the consumption timed for efficiency. AC Motors are continuous users and mostly just draw all the time.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by TheRealPomax on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @10:39AM (#16537083)
Remember that power stations do not generate the same single phase signal that you tap into in your house. They generate three phase AC current. They also don't link up directly: there are transmission substations in between.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by wintermutesGhst on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @10:53AM (#16537205)
This is what I wondered, is network topology carefully arranged to avoid triangular connections, or 'loops' where a generator could interfere (indirectly) with itself?
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by dfox on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @12:32PM (#16538026)
Today the physical topology is usually somewhat random mesh, but not all interconnection lines are active at the same time.

In early days of electrification the physical topology usually was spanning tree and in fact this was the motivation for research into minimal spanning tree algorithms at the time.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by neltnerb on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @12:22PM (#16537929)
Nope! They're connected in triangles all the time. I was stuck on this phase synchronization for a while, but really it's just the local phase lead or lag that is required.

Think of the phase as a distributed signal that indicates the current state of the local system taking into account all connected generators. It's weird but true!

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by gpvos on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @01:46PM (#16538712)
Can you elaborate? It is still unclear to me.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by neltnerb on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @03:26PM (#16539526)
I may be explaining it wrong, but here is a reference, particularly 22.8:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/118169687/Network-Protection-Auto...

This makes it sound more complex than what I learned when I last tried to figure it out =)

They seem to be describing that where two grids meet they go through a synchronizer that disconnects one or the other if they aren't in sync, so implies manually disconnections throughout the network as needed locally.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by wyager on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @03:05PM (#16539348)
That doesn’t answer his question.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by wyager on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @03:04PM (#16539334)
This explanation is necessarily wrong. There exist multiple paths of different phase lengths between two nodes (eg in a triangle configuration), unlike your bicycle example. In particular, the L1 and L2 distance metrics are equivalent on a line but not on a 2D plane or sphere.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by theoh on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @12:53PM (#16538240)
A fun concrete aspect of this is the "synchroscope" used when bringing generators online: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchroscope
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by wintermutesGhst on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @10:51AM (#16537182)
My confusion always comes when I try to think of it as a propagating wave.

If instead of a tandem bicycle, it is a very long rope that someone is moving up and down, then when I try to join some distance away there will seem to be a wave passing me. Even if I join in at the correct phase, I will also be generating a wave traveling back to the first 'generator' and interfering with the existing wave along the way. With the right distance and relative strength then we will produce a standing wave between us. Is there an apparent 'direction' to the wave of electric potential in a large grid?

Then there is the issue of triangular arrangements the sibling comment raised, when the radial distances and relative phases don't align.

Maybe my issue is always trying to think through physical analogues I can 'see'.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by pjc50 on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @11:10AM (#16537312)
Note that the wavelength of 50Hz at 'c' is 6000km. There's not a lot of space to get very much out of phase and it will attenuate along the way.

The nearest I can think to "direction" is "reactive power", or the phase angle between voltage and current at any particular point.

There very definitely are loops and multiple paths to a particular point, it's not called a "grid" for nothing. This little map of the UK grid is interesting: https://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/about-grid/our-networks-and-...

Edit: Aha, further reading - systems for altering the phase angle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrature_booster

And https://www.researchgate.net/publication/27341916_Influence_...

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by theoh on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @06:46PM (#16541053)
Along with quadrature boosters, there are (used to be?) these things, synchronous condensers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_condenser
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by _trampeltier on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @07:05PM (#16541149)
But with 1500km it would be 90° out of phase and that would be already a pretty high voltage.

I'm also wondering since a couple of years about the same question.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by emilecantin on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @12:43PM (#16538148)
Your issue is seeing 2d (perpendicular) waves where there are actually 1d (parallel) waves. Also, you're not really creating a new wave, you're just giving a "push" to the existing one.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by radiowave on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @08:32AM (#16536195)
Stations within the same grid are in sync, plus or minus propagation delays. When a newly started up station wants to connect to the grid, it has to get its generators in sync with the rest of the grid before being switched in. (See wikipedia entry for Synchrocope.)

Once the generators are switched in, they'll inherently maintain sync, as even if there's too little motive power being supplied by the station's turbines, the difference will be made up by the power grid itself, which will drive the generators round like an electric motor. (Typically this would happen for a brief period after coming online, after which the station would throttle up and start helping to push the generators round.)

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by hollander on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @09:01AM (#16536348)
If stations are not in sync, will that mean they cancel eachother out like with soundwaves and anti-sound?
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by wglb on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @11:48AM (#16537640)
No, it is worse than that.

If you think of two generators connected together in a power grid, they need to have the same frequency and the same phase. If one of the generators slows a little bit, it begins drawing current from the other. It in effect becomes a motor. Power flows as a proportion to the difference in phase angle.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by clord on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @10:56AM (#16537223)
All the other generators in that grid will drive the out-of-sync station like an electric motor at a faster or slower speed until it's synched up. In effect that's what's happening in the article. Unaccounted load is pulling other generators down, making the frequency unexpectedly low.

Perhaps they're not using just frequency to coordinate (solar/wind perhaps needs a sidechannel?), and someone on their grid in a politically unstable area is using power without reporting on the side-channel. Hence the frequency drops due to the unaccounted load.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by baq on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @12:55PM (#16538267)
An old joke says that the power plant starts rotating around the generator.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by radiowave on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @09:16AM (#16536450)
I imagine that they might cancel out, given limitless current flows between them. In practice, something would go bang long before that happened.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by XorNot on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @04:52PM (#16540262)
You're missing resistance losses, essentially. They would do no work (no real power component to the load impedance mismatch) but I^2 * R means the complex component would be entirely lost to transmission lines / coil windings.

But the effect is as you say: something goes bang.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by adamcharnock on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @08:43AM (#16536235)
Ah, this is very interesting. Thank you.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by aleh on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @08:46AM (#16536246)
This propagation delay does not really matter as long as neighboring power plants are synchronized with each other.

Yes, east coast and west coast are out of phase, but only to a perfect observer who can see phase value on both coasts instantly (without a propagation delay). However in reality information about the phase cannot travel faster than speed of light, so to any real observer anywhere between east and west coasts both sides appear to be in sync.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by howard941 on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @10:01AM (#16536808)
Almost all of the other replies are excellent. In light of your question I think you'll find interesting this realtime map that shows how far out of whack the regional grids are from 60Hz: http://fnetpublic.utk.edu/frequencymap.html
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by core-questions on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @12:39PM (#16538102)
Seems like there's plenty of deviation in North America, more even than the European grid is complaining about. Quebec and the Maritimes seem to oscillate between low and normal, and the west seems to always be a bit too fast.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by howard941 on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @02:03PM (#16538862)
Yeah you're seeing the short term variation at that site, and there's plenty of it. But over a 24 hour period - for now anyway - NERC standards require time error correction, http://www.nerc.com/files/BAL-004-0.pdf

Going forward it may not be a good idea to rely on the grid's timebase as there's talk as well as an NPRM out there to do away with the standard. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2010/03/29/2010-64...

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by retromario on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @05:13PM (#16540455)
That's a really cool visualization. Do you know if anything like this exists for the European grid?
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by JanKanis on Saturday March 17, 2018 @12:21PM (#16607608)
Not as cool a visualization, but https://www.swissgrid.ch/swissgrid/de/home/reliability/wam.h... shows the frequencies and phase differences (in degrees) between a few measuring stations around Europe. The phase difference between Switzerland and Spain is now some 50°, which is actually much larger than I would imagine these differences becoming.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by _trampeltier on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @07:11PM (#16541173)
http://www.netzfrequenz.info

All power grids are connected, so there is just one frequency.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by retromario on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:29AM (#16543516)
Aren't all the grids in US/Canada also connected? My understanding was that they are all connected and that the grandparent visualization was showing the frequency differences across major portions of the US/Canada grid. Or am I getting this wrong?
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by eigenvector on Friday March 09, 2018 @01:37AM (#16550143)
No, they are not. There are four major grids: West, East, Quebec and Texas. Each one is referred to as an "interconnection". Synchronism is maintained within each interconnection, and they may have non-synchronous (i.e. DC) links between each other. Here is a map:

http://www.nerc.com/AboutNERC/keyplayers/PublishingImages/NE...

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by rjmunro on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @09:21AM (#16536487)
As well as the other answers here, you can control flows around grids by using a special arrangement of transformer to shift the phase of the signal. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrature_booster

and here is a commercial example: https://www.siemens.com/global/en/home/products/energy/high-...

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by amluto on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @12:52PM (#16538230)
Having thought about this before, here's how I think it works. The relevant effect isn't the speed of light per se -- it's the phase velocity v of 60 Hz AC power transmission, which is indeed reasonably close to c. If you have a power line of length l running East to West and the phase on the Western end lags by 2pil/v, then an electromagnetic calculation will show that power is moving Westward [1]. If the western phase leads, then power flows Eastward. If the phase is the same everywhere, then no current or power flows.

This is actually quite handy. When demand locally exceeds supply, the phase will lag (this is how generators work), and power will flow toward the excess demand.

More advanced grid operators use various devices to intentionally shift the phase to control the flow of power. [2]

[1] Actually calculating this is surprisingly complicated. You can integrate the Poynting vector; you can model the inductance and capacitance of the line, calculate the current, and use P=I*V; or you can probably do it in several other ways. You might even be able to model it as little packets of energy moving along at the group velocity.

[2] This ability is important for economic and engineering reasons. Imagine you connect two cities with two parallel, competing transmission lines. One has 100 MVA capacity, and one has 10 MVA capacity, but they have the same impedance. (This is a bit farfetched, but capacity is related to impedance, heat dissipation ability, and the ratings of whatever equipment is at the ends of the lines.) Without some kind of active control, to much power will flow through the 10 MVA line and it will fail.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by ceejayoz on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @08:24AM (#16536145)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_U.S._power_transmi...

> The electrical grid that powers mainland North America is divided into multiple regions. The Eastern Interconnection and the Western Interconnection are the largest. Three other regions include the Texas Interconnection, the Quebec Interconnection, and the Alaska Interconnection. Each region delivers 60 Hz electrical power. The regions are not directly connected or synchronized to each other, but there are some HVDC interconnections.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by maliker on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @11:24AM (#16537421)
Yep, as others have pointed out, grid operators can see waves of frequency change propogate through the system.

Here’s some visualizations of that (see the linked movies) from a cool project called FNET/GridEye:

http://fnetpublic.utk.edu/sample_events.html

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by neltnerb on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @12:20PM (#16537916)
I love this brain teaser. If you want to make it even more weird, consider that the second plant is communicating it's phase back to the first one! Paradox!

But the answer is contained in the parent comment. Each plant generates more power if the phase lags and produces less if the phase leads. Basically, electricity consumers drag on the phase and the plants use this to control output power, so that the phase matching can be done purely locally.

But it is a lot simpler if you use high voltage DC! If you do that you can connect networks with entirely different phases!

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by maxerickson on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @08:25AM (#16536155)
There's splits in the grid:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_U.S._power_transmi...

So that takes care of some of it.

Anyway, synchronization is actively managed, when a generator starts up, it is synchronized to the grid adaptively.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronization_(alternating_c...

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by CompelTechnic on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @08:33AM (#16536202)
Even with the splits in the grid, the time lag is still significant, I would think. The western interconnection appears to be 3,700,000 from the corner of Arizona to the corner of British Columbia. The wikipedia article doesn't address the time lag (except perhaps implicitly).
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by kortex on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @12:26PM (#16537967)
Indian Point to Yankee Nuclear is 230 km, IP to Niagara Falls is 440, and NF to YN is 500 km. At c (electronic energy propagates slighly slower), 1 km = 4.32' (arcminute) of lag. That means the 'legs' of this triangle have lag of 16, 32, and 36 degrees. That around half a Hz of frequency out of phase, or ~0.9%. By comparison, the 2011 tornado outbreak caused 0.09 Hz deviation.

So there must be some accounting for this propagation error, either as losses, or engineering.

What I suspect (totally not my field) is that the high power interconnects between large generators do have this triangular lag (the incoming lines lag from the plant's reference frame), but they use quadrature boosting or similar to match that particular interconnect.

T&D (transmission & distribution) result in ~6% of the net energy being wasted. I imagine phase lag "feels" like impedance, with the real component acting as resistance.

Also, it's worth noting part of the appeal of HVDC, aside from line reactance and skin effect, is you get to choose your output frequency.

https://www.nema.org/Products/Documents/TDEnergyEff.pdf

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by adamcharnock on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @08:42AM (#16536228)
Reading about this for the first time, it sounds like this problem would also apply to the Synchronous grid of Continental Europe [1] discussed in the press release. This is approx 4000km across, and much more if you include Russia (I'm not clear on the extent of the grid). It does not sound like these are split into individual grids.

Maybe active synchronisation solves this, but to my (inexpert) mind the network would still suffer from interferences at various points between power plants.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Continenta...

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by gumby on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @10:54AM (#16537209)
> If the USA's power grid is about 4,000,000 meters wide

BTW North America actually has eight transnational (USA/Canada) interconnection authorities or "regions" in which power distribution is managed; it's not a unitary entity.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by elfchief on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @11:24AM (#16537423)
One interesting thing about the "load changes the frequency" thing is that if you measure the frequency in enough places, you can actually see how large load changes "ripple" through the system.

For example, there was a big power outage in Florida in 2008 that caused a generator to suddenly go offline, and several orgs had a couple dozen power frequency meters running on the grid at the time, so they were able to make an animation of the east coast power grid "ringing" over the course of about 10 seconds as the load changed rapidly throughout the grid.

The animation for that is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdBB4byrZ6U

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by hexane360 on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @04:48PM (#16540231)
Really interesting to see how some chunks lag more or less than would be indicated by geography alone. For example, the Chicago and Indianapolis areas seem to be much more affected from the northwest than the southeast. I wonder if this is mostly due to topology or just grid capacity.

Do you know how the power plant's control loops are tuned? It seems like just tuning your plant to be properly damped isn't enough, because there's also lots of feedback from other power plants.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by elfchief on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @09:35PM (#16541819)
I don't know for a fact how they manage it, but I bet the feedback is slow enough (those generators are heavy, and it probably takes a few cycles to even accurately measure a change) that they might not have to do much in the way of actively managing that feedback. The system will oscillate a bit (as it did in that video), but there's nothing inherently wrong with that, as long as it's within a certain set of limits.

(And really, the load changes are typically more gradual. Even "everyone just got home from work" is a fairly spread out event, compared to, say, the sudden loss of a few hundred MW of generating capacity...)

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by _trampeltier on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @07:18PM (#16541213)
Break time in big sport events also leave there fingerprints in the grid frequency. Everybody start to make a coffee, go to toilet (light), etc.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by wojt_eu on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @08:12AM (#16536097)
An example of how frequency is closely monitored before energy demand surge in Britain due to Tea Time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slDAvewWfrA https://www.geek.com/geek-cetera/tea-time-in-britain-causes-...

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by stordoff on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @10:10PM (#16541993)
Worth noting that TV pickup mostly _isn't_ caused by electric kettles:

> TV pickups [...] are a surge in demand caused by the flushing of toilets (leading to a surge at the pumping stations) and the opening of fridge doors by millions of people. There is a common misconception that the number one driver of TV pickup is the boiling of kettles. In fact, this only creates a pull on the local network for a short period of time until the water has boiled, and can therefore be managed relatively easily, whereas flushing the toilet causes a longer surge at the water and sewerage pumping stations, and opening the refrigerator lets the chilled air escape, causing the compressor to run.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by macdice on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @06:16PM (#16540888)
Very interesting, thanks. At 1:22 "Power surges like this are unique to Britain. No other country in the world switches on so many kettles in so short a time." I'm not sure if that's true... I did some work for a power company in New Zealand about 14 years ago and this exact phenomenon was known there. Chip off the old block...
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by mcv on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @08:57AM (#16536313)
I clearly understand far less about electricity grids than I thought. Isn't that 50 Hz frequency generated by the power plants? It seems hard enough to keep them all perfectly in sync. But I don't see how demand can drop that frequency, and even less why you would want to propagate such a drop in frequency across other subnetworks.

Personally I'd expect a shortage to result in a lower voltage, not a lower frequency.

I'm also rather surprised that the correct functioning of my clock depends on the political stability of a politically unstable part of the continent.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by nomercy400 on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @11:09AM (#16537304)
You can think of it like the rotor of a generator is spinning at 50Hz under a certain load. If you now reduce this load, the generator experiences less counter force, but its input is still the same, so it starts to spin faster, increasing its frequency to say 50.1Hz.

The opposite is also true, if you suddenly increase the load on the generator, the generator will start spinnging less fast and the frequency drops to say 49.9Hz.

This is all very carefully monitored, and there are multiple automatic (massive) power breakers throughout a power network to detect these changes. Imagine all power lines of a large part or entire country suddenly dropping away. The network outside of that country would suddenly experience a large decrease in load and its frequency would go up, while inside the country the load would have a large increse, reducing the frequency in that country. If the change is so large that the frequency goes above 52.5Hz or below 47.5Hz, then the automatic circuit breakers trigger to prevent damage to the entire network (basically adjusting the load of the network). If it can't adjust enough, more circuit breakers will trip, causing larger outages.

Example of these are the 2003 Italy blackout and 2003 US/Canada Northeast blackout.

Reconnecting a blacked out part to the grid isn't easy either. People tend to leave things on during a blackout, such as airconditioners and TL lights. Now when the power comes back, these things draw a low of power for a short period of time during startup. Normally this isn't bad, but when they all do it at the same time the load is massive (think of a power spikes of 7-8x the normal usage), usually tripping the same huge circuit breaker again.

As for the clock deviation, apparently running below 50Hz for a longer period of time has been condoned by the people in charge of the EU power grid. Maybe for too long. There are two solutions: - generate more power in the EU, but that costs money. They could sell the power to the slackers (which I guess they don't want to pay for) - cut the slackers off (which is very drastic and does not help the EU's idea of looking out for each other).

But a decision has to be made. Looks like more power is currently being generated, as the frequency is now on 50.010Hz.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by kqr on Thursday March 08, 2018 @01:30AM (#16542731)
Imagine all power lines of a large part or entire country suddenly dropping away. The network outside of that country would suddenly experience a large decrease in load and its frequency would go up, while inside the country the load would have a large increse, reducing the frequency in that country. If the change is so large that the frequency goes above 52.5Hz or below 47.5Hz, then the automatic circuit breakers trigger to prevent damage to the entire network (basically adjusting the load of the network). If it can't adjust enough, more circuit breakers will trip, causing larger outages.

If the problem is that the frequency is too high, i.e. power load is too low in that coubtry, why would tripping a break help? Wouldn't that very suddenly aggravate the problem and create even higher frequencies?

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by eigenvector on Friday March 09, 2018 @01:48AM (#16550176)
When frequency is dangerously high, overfrequency protection relays at generating stations will trip, bringing the system toward balance. When it is dangerously low, loads will be tripped by the under-frequency load shedding system, again bringing the system back toward balance.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by gpvos on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @09:12AM (#16536420)
This just goes to show that everything is political.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by stygiansonic on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @09:54AM (#16536752)
The original article linked to this page[0], which provided a good analogy:

"On a level road it is easy to maintain speed. On reaching a gradient, however, the rider needs to make more effort to achieve the same speed. Going downhill, the rider needs to apply the brakes to keep the same speed.

In the entire European network the electrical generators are set up in such a way that they automatically and immediately respond to a change in grid frequency. Depending on the level of consumption they increase or lower their capacity. This ensures that the frequency remains stable. This automatic adjustment can be compared with the cruise control in a car."

0. https://www.swissgrid.ch/swissgrid/en/home/experts/topics/fr...

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by mrtksn on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @06:23AM (#16535697)
Thanks for the correction, as more you read the more interesting it gets.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by Slartie on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @06:41AM (#16535762)
It definitely does.

And very interesting thoughts come up, especially when you add newer developments like non-rotational-mass-based power sources (solar power, batteries, stuff like that) into the mix. Because at the moment with the high number of traditional steam-powered generators, the rotating mass of the turbines and their inertia serve as a kind of buffer against sudden swings in electricity demand with an ultra-quick response time of "basically no time". As a second buffer stage we have the steam supplies in the plants, which can be quickly accessed just by opening a valve, thus the response time is non-zero, but still quite short.

Now replace all those generators with some other power sources without those inherent balancing capabilities (that probably weren't explicitly built into them, but that just happen to be there because of their construction) and you'll get a network that is much more vulnerable to sudden changes on the demand side. Now, explicit mechanisms of storing energy in a way that can be accessed in literally zero time need to be introduced into the network, just to keep it stable and to provide other regulation mechanisms (of which a lot of them also have to be re-thought) with enough time to do their job.

I wouldn't wonder if there were already plans for building large rotating masses with motors on them that are kept at network frequency, with the motors switching over to serve as generators when the frequency drops.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by blattimwind on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @07:30AM (#16535915)
Synchronous machines with no net shaft power are sometimes used to supply reactive power, but these also contribute a coupled rotating mass. (edit: Apparently English people call these "synchronous condenser")

The question of "how can we build a large and stable grid without thousands of tons of rotating mass?" is an area of very active research I've been told.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by consp on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @08:26AM (#16536166)
Aren't the large Tesla battery farms in Australia being used for that purpose? [1] Basically they use batteries and control systems to correct instead of a rotating mass. I'm not sure about the ability to push several hundreds of MW into the system but at least it gets something done.

[1] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-42190358

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by blattimwind on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @08:58AM (#16536322)
The rotor in a synchronous machine is coupled magnetically to the grid (basically a spring-mass system where the spring is a rotary field); there is virtually no reaction time in this mechanism.

(It should be noted that other motors, including asynchronous machines, contribute as well)

AIUI the HPR has reaction times on the order of a few seconds.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @09:23AM (#16536505)
HPR reaction time is milliseconds for frequency response. It reacts faster than the grid operator’s data logger resolution.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by beojan on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @06:54AM (#16535802)
> I wouldn't wonder if there were already plans for building large rotating masses with motors on them that are kept at network frequency, with the motors switching over to serve as generators when the frequency drops.

Flywheels? Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage#Grid_e....

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by Piskvorrr on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @06:51AM (#16535792)
Well...that's essentially the pumped-storage model, except it also takes tens of seconds to spool up: http://virtualniprohlidky.cez.cz/cez-dlouhe-strane-aj/
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by oldcynic on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @08:24AM (#16536148)
Definitely. Dinorwig[0] has the turbine hall built inside a mountain, using a lake in a disused slate quarry. Stop to maximum power in 12s or something similarly ridiculous. They do tours, which I highly recommend if you are in the UK. You go by bus (inside the mountain) to get to the interesting things.

It was also built to be able to do a black start (startup after a total grid outage).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by gpvos on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @09:15AM (#16536444)
>It was also built to be able to do a black start (startup after a total grid outage).

Aren't all stations?

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by oldcynic on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @09:38AM (#16536631)
Nope. They have to be able to cope with extreme changes in load, and I think have higher precision of frequency adjustment to pull the rest of the grid into sync.

Some coal plants had gas turbines[0] fitted solely to allow a black start, others a ton of diesel generators. Some plants need power from the grid to kick off - nuclear for instance. Only some percentage of the grid needs cold start capability, and the rest of the grid is bootstrapped from that.

[0] (edit) Think aero engine. Rolls Royce Avons were used at Didcot A, and the industrial Avon is still available after 60 years. That's the same basic engine found in the Hawker Hunter and EE Lightning.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by Reason077 on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @10:39AM (#16537084)
I recently got to take a look around a small (~ 4MW) hydro station. Despite this being a tiny contributor to the overall grid, it is apparently a grid/regulatory requirement for them to be able to perform a black start.

For that reason, all the equipment in the generator building ran on 48V DC, supported by a large bank of batteries.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by howard941 on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @12:22PM (#16537930)
Additional anecdata: The sensors and controls in distribution substations are also DC although 48VDC is considered the low end in those places where it goes up to over 200V, according to the engineer from a municipal electric company met in an $OFFICE meeting Monday. The guy said they specify flooded lead acids and plan on them lasting 15 years before pre-planned change-outs.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by pjc50 on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @11:26AM (#16537438)
In addition to the other answers, large generators usually use externally-energised coils to provide their magnetic field, so they can't generate unless there is already a supply of electricity. Then there's all the peripheral machinery of a power plant such as coal crushers and feeders, pumps, valves and so on.

Somewhere there will be a manual for the unfortunate operators who will have to restart the whole grid in the correct order, relying on the telephone company's backup generators to communicate.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by radiowave on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @09:35AM (#16536605)
Larger stations could take a long time (like a day) to start up, as there are trade-offs between start up time and operating efficiency. During that time, you still have to be able to run all the plant equipment - pumps, fans, coal grinders, conveyors, all the monitoring and control equipment. I expect there will be many stations that don't have anywhere near sufficient diesel generator capacity to allow start up without any supply from the grid.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by maliker on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @11:32AM (#16537493)
Probably my favorite anecdote about the grid synchronization behavior is that the generator governor settings (e.g. how to react to changes in frequency) were developed early in the 100 year+ history of the grid, and now we don’t fully understand why the settings were chosen to be what they are, and all the engineers who developed them are long dead.

Now that a bunch of wind and solar is being added to the grid with completely different control schemes, there’s a lot of concern about whether the system will continue to stay reliably synced.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by heavenlyblue on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @12:49PM (#16538193)
HN-worthy comment. Do we not have any electrical engineering degrees at the universities?
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by Tharkun on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @12:35PM (#16538062)
I thought that the frequencies were originally decided by whatever machine the generator was driving. Want your big saw to split logs at 100RPM? Make your water wheel drive a generator at 100Hz. IIRC every big motor was different and ran at its own frequency.

Only when people started interconnecting these generators in a grid did the need to settle on a single frequency arrise.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by Fiahil on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @07:38AM (#16535950)
This is super interesting ! I have a few questions !

How does the demand affect the frequency ? Is there a logical unit, somewhere, responsible of "communicating" through the network ? Or is it a physical effect ?

> When a factory is powered up, the turbines in the power plants are experiencing larger forces attempting to slow them down.

How does something like a higher demand, a drop in frequency, translate to a larger force attempting to slow down the turbines ?

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by tehwalrus on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @07:46AM (#16535984)
Energy conservation. You're pushing (literally) against the electrical workload of the connected circuits (places where people have plugged a device into a socket and made a loop). When there's more to push against, your steam goes less far and your turbine starts to slow. You can then apply more energy and push the system back up to speed.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by Slartie on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @07:56AM (#16536024)
The physical effect is known as the Lorentz force: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force

If this was not the case, we could basically generate arbitrary amounts of power from nowhere, as there was no resistance and we could thus just spin a generator forever with zero power necessary (except for the little bit required to overcome friction) once it is set in motion. The Lorentz force makes sure that's not the case by slowing down the movement, and it slows it down more if more electric power is pulled from the generator.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by tormeh on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @06:46AM (#16535782)
If anyone's thinking of making a clock that assumes the average frequency is 50Hz: Don't do that. There is no commitment to having the average frequency be 50Hz. There is a commitment to keeping frequency close to 50Hz, but no one in the energy industry is thinking about the average. So don't build things on top of that.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by petschge on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @07:35AM (#16535932)
That is actually not true for the synchronized european power grid we are talking about here. The time that a clock that runs of the power grid is known as "Netzzeit" (grid time) and there is standards on how far that is allowed to deviate from the legal, public time.

There is websites such as https://www.swissgrid.ch/swissgrid/en/home/experts/topics/fr... that track and display the deviation.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by sjclemmy on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @07:49AM (#16535997)
Way back in the dim distant past I had a lovely Sony cube radio alarm clock. It had a switch on the back to determine the clock speed, either 50 or 60Hz. One day, unbeknowst to me, I, or someone else, moved the switch from 50 to 60Hz.

When the alarm went off the following morning, I proceeded to get ready for lectures (This clock was my only means of telling the time, there were no phones or computers in my room) and after having showered I switched on the TV (which could only receive 3 channels at the time!) where I was met with unfamiliar programmes. This confused me for a long while until I realised the time was about 40 minutes later than the clock told me. I missed my first lecture.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by duffmancd on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @07:10AM (#16535857)
It depends where you are. I know for example that the Australian standards require an accumulated time error of less than +/-5 sec on the mainland (+/-15s in Tasmania).

Looking at other comments, it seems that we're a little weird down under and most places don't track the drift.

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by zaarn on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @07:39AM (#16535959)
There is definitely a commitment. European Power Providers keep the average frequency at 50hz in relation to UTC time. With very very high precision.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @07:34AM (#16535930)
Yes, there is, any accumulated phase error during the day is normally corrected at night.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by emiliobumachar on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @07:26AM (#16535901)
Additionally, it will be a region-locked clock by its very nature. We use 60Hz here in Brazil.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by rowyourboat on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @07:37AM (#16535943)
When moving from the US to Europe, I had the opposite problem. I had brought along a number of devices that I powered off a transformer (230V -> 115V) here, among them an alarm clock. Which worked off the AC frequency and thus was losing 10 minutes every hour on 50Hz.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by skgoa on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @06:52AM (#16535796)
Wow, this explains why the clock on my gf's oven had deviated so much after years of keeping perfectly in sync with all the other clocks on our devices.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by helb on Thursday March 08, 2018 @12:10PM (#16545777)
If anyone is interested in how the frequency and deviation changes are related (i was), i threw this quick-n-dirty chart together this morning: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vR6ZsthgLiQA...

It scrapes the swissgrid.ch page (with something like "curl | grep | sed > csv" in a loop), so the data is only as accurate/current as theirs…

Edit: here's the actual sheet in case you want to "fork" it – https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i9cLeKb5Eq1IoZFOUoOk...

Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by fnl on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @07:32AM (#16535924)
Your answer doesn't seem to address the missing energy, said to be 113GWh, though - which seems the bigger issue according to the report.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by wglb on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @04:09PM (#16539914)
Minor nit—a generator is likely to not be rotating 50 times each second. Each rotation of the shaft could be generating multiple cycles depending on the wiring of the generator.
Re:Continuing frequency deviation in the Continental Europea... by tinus_hn on Thursday March 08, 2018 @08:37AM (#16544212)
If it worked like that, why would you base your clocks on these cycles?