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Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by sunsunsunsun on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @01:49PM (#16422835)
But a new study, published Tuesday in JAMA, may turn that advice on its head. It found that people who cut back on added sugar, refined grains and highly processed foods while concentrating on eating plenty of vegetables and whole foods — without worrying about counting calories or limiting portion sizes — lost significant amounts of weight over the course of a year.

Maybe I missed it in the article but this just seems like calorie restriction to me. Its much harder to eat a large amount of calories if its just meat and vegetables.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by btilly on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:02PM (#16422980)
Obviously all diets have to be LIMO - Less In, More Out. But the question is how you get there.

Eating vegetables and whole foods without worrying about counting calories or limiting portion sizes doesn't feel like effort. You don't WANT to eat more. And your body becomes happier about burning fat rather than demanding that you eat.

Counting calories explicitly is a lot of work and a lot of self control. Few people can succeed at that.

Personally I follow the former strategy using http://www.weightgrapher.com/ to keep myself honest. About 15 years ago I decided to lose 20 pounds, and kept it off for close to a decade. Then I let my weight get away from me, because life got complicated. This time around I've decided to get back to that weight again, and I know it is sustainable. I'm not aiming for fast weight loss, I've been going at a comfortable pace for 3 months and expect to be dieting another 6 months to reach my target. But I know that I'll be able to get there and stay for years without a lot of willpower. Partly luck of genetics/gut biome. Partly because I'm doing it in a mentally easy way.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:38PM (#16423960)
In my (totally amateur) perception, there are three different ways to be "hungry". First is hungry for calories (blood sugar may be involved here). Second is hungry for nutrients (cravings may be at least somewhat caused by this). And third is hungry for volume - your stomach physically is empty.

Eating vegetables and whole foods helps with the second and third, and somewhat with the first. By not eating highly processed foods, your blood sugar doesn't spike and then crash. (I think of it as the difference between using coal and jet fuel to make a fire.)

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by zoul on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:20PM (#16423816)
Obviously all diets have to be LIMO - Less In, More Out.

Do they? What exactly does it mean? I had the impression that eating a lot of calories doesn’t mean keeping them – that it depends on what source they come from (fats/proteins/carbs).

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by LargeWu on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:37PM (#16423952)
A calorie is a measure of engery. The laws of physics say that if you consumer fewer calories than you burn, you will lose weight, because your body needs fuel to operate.

Now, your body might try to compensate and change metabolism in response to this, so that you unwittingly burn fewer calories than you consume. And yes, the types of food you're eating can affect this. But ultimately, our bodies are not perpetual motion machines, and cannot expend more energy than they take in as fuel, over the long term.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by JoeAltmaier on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:42PM (#16423998)
This has been a long-standing theme in this forum (HN). I've participated myself.

Of course the arguments to physics are true. But they are largely irrelevant. Its not the truth that's going to help people.

People eat too much, not because they don't know better (and physics! will teach them), but because they have some behavioral issue that prevents them from doing the good actions repeatedly.

It always ends up here: "Just don't put the calories in your mouth. That's all you need to do." Which would be true, if food and eating were entirely volitional. But its an emotional need, a very fundamental one.

Imagine saying "Just put the gun to your head and pull the trigger. That's all you need to do." While its undeniably easy, most of us, because of emotional needs to survive and avoid pain, would find it very, very hard to accomplish. (Not saying a gun-to-the-head loses weight; just comparing an easy instruction with the accompanying difficulty in performing it).

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by snowwrestler on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @05:56PM (#16425056)
It's true that bare thermodynamics is not great practical lifestyle advice, but it's also true that a lot of people really, truly, do not know the basics of what calories are and what they mean for weight.

I agree that no one should use thermodynamics as an excuse to be judgmental or dismissive toward people who are having trouble managing their weight.

But I also think that when people directly ask about calories (as the GP zoul did), it's worth being clear and unambiguous about the basic science.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by Nomentatus on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @10:06PM (#16426511)
Bodies are complex. Less in More Out is only true and a matter of physics if our bodies can never refuse to absorb a calorie, or ever change gears to add tasks (such as extra DNA-repair) in times of surplus rather than always resort to mere storage. It's very unlikely that that's true. Merely altering the speed of motility through the GI tract (degree of peristalsis) alters the action of our biota and substantially changes how many calories and nutrients are available to be absorbed, as one small example.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by LargeWu on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:48PM (#16424051)
Oh, yeah, I totally understand that it's not useful diet advice. I have a desire to lose a few pounds, but that doesn't stop me from having a beer every night as I'm making dinner, or grabbing a piece of candy a couple of times a day while at work.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by TheCoelacanth on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @06:59PM (#16425516)
A human body is too complex to usefully model based on such low-level physical principles.

No one is going to track of how much mass they breathe in and out, how much mass they lose through sweat, excretion, urination, how much mass they eat and drink or how much energy they gain or lose through radiation. You would have to track all of those things to model weight loss based on laws of thermodynamics.

If you are trying to predict weight loss based on the calorie count on the back of your food boxes and based on your level of activity, the laws of thermodynamics aren't going to be very helpful. The calorie count on the box of food is only a very rough approximation of how much usable energy your body is able to extract from the food. That amount will not be consistent for every person or even for a single person in differing scenario.

"All models are wrong, but some are useful", so why be pedantic about one model being more right when it is also much less useful in the scenario and still is not a completely accurate model of reality?

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by Gibbon1 on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @03:34AM (#16427896)
The best comments I've seen about this is when you look at cumulative storage needed over time to gain weigh vs the total amount of energy consumed, the 'imbalance' is an accounting error.

Simple physics says one thing, simple engineering says another which is anything controlled that finely is under hormonally driven feedback control.

Frankly I think in the 20th century, particularly in the US and Britain there was a strong cultural imperative to assign psychological causes for conditions medical 'science' wasn't able to explain. So fat people are gluttons, erectile dysfunction is physiological, ulcers are caused by physiological stress. Heart disease is caused by a 'type A personality'.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by jdmichal on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:57PM (#16424131)
There is some basis of merit to your line of questioning. The current caloric measurements -- 9 for a gram of fat, 4 for a gram of carbohydrates or protein -- is based on oxidation measurement. That is, how many calories are released when the food is literally burned. Then some adjustments are made to estimate the inefficiencies. For instance, dietary fiber is a carbohydrate, but it's considered to provide less energy because it's not easily digestible.

However, barring inaccuracies in these numbers, once a calorie has been consumed into your body, generally the only way to get rid of it is using it. Until such a time, it will be stored as sugar or fat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_energy

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by cies on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:18PM (#16423795)
> Obviously all diets have to be LIMO

Diets designed to "cut" (loose weight), yes. Some people want to gain weight, their regimens are also called diets.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by msla on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:26PM (#16423864)
If you want to be technical, any habitual pattern of eating is a diet.

But technicalities don't define words, usage and context do, and, for the vast majority of people, including people here, diet means a change in your habitual pattern of eating designed to induce weight loss. That's how it's universally understood in this context.

Being more technical does not mean being more correct.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by dwc on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:39PM (#16423971)
"Universally understood" shouldn't be true for this. I've known a number of people who were on diets to gain weight for medical or self image reasons, and it's known still known as a diet.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by JustSomeNobody on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:33PM (#16423917)
Yes, but we already knew in which context btilly was writing, so I'm not sure being pedantic is justified.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by nardi on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @01:58PM (#16422941)
You did indeed miss it:

Dr. Gardner said it is not that calories don’t matter. After all, both groups ultimately ended up consuming fewer calories on average by the end of the study, even though they weren’t conscious of it. The point is that they did this by focusing on nutritious whole foods that satisfied their hunger.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by msla on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:28PM (#16423881)
Well, yes, any sustainable diet has to be satisfying. You can, and and least one person has, lost weight on a twinkie diet which also improved his cholesterol, but that wasn't very satisfying and would not have become a permanent diet.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by jdmichal on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @04:03PM (#16424177)
There's also been at least one count of dieting via fasting for over a year. Which is more immediately obvious as unsustainable -- fasting prolonged far enough is called starvation.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2012/07/24/3549931.ht...

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by dbatten on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @01:52PM (#16422879)
This is particularly true for things like soda. Soda does absolutely nothing to help you feel full, but it's pretty calorie dense due to the sugar. Cut out added sugars (and therefore soda) and BOOM, you're immediately eating less calories but not feeling any more hungry.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by eridius on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:00PM (#16422970)
1 can of coke has 140 calories. A good rule of thumb is 3500 calories is a pound. So if you drink a single can of coke every day, after a year that's worth almost 15lbs.

This observation is what led to me cutting soda out of my diet entirely almost a year ago (barring the rare treat).

And don't be fooled by the promise of diet soda. Lots of studies recently have shown that drinking diet soda doesn't help with weight loss either. Apparently the artificial sweeteners do something to your body by tricking it into thinking it's getting sugar; I'm not really familiar with the details, but studies showed that people who swapped soda for diet soda didn't lose weight, but people who swapped soda for e.g. water did. This advice is what led to me cutting diet soda out of my diet 6 months ago (which I had switched to after cutting out regular soda), so now I drink almost exclusively water.

If you're interested in cutting out soda as well, and don't think you can just switch to water, I have a couple of suggestions:

1. Start with those crystal geyser flavored sparkling waters you can get at Costco. I drank those for a while, because the hint of flavor tricked my mouth into thinking I wasn't just drinking water. I eventually stopped though, in favor of

2. Get a SodaStream and just make your own sparkling water. You can add flavor packets to this if you want, but I never have. Once you get used to it, unflavored sparkling water is pretty great. The downside here is the refill tanks for the SodaStream aren't cheap, but if you're concerned about that, there are homebrew carbonation setups as well (they just take up a lot more space; SodaStream is pretty compact).

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by cstejerean on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:30PM (#16423327)
When I switched from regular soda to diet soda I lost about 15 pounds almost immediately. It turns out I was drinking a lot of soda and all that extra sugar didn't help. However the effect quickly went away as my body got used to the diet soda, and then it didn't have much of an effect (and it seems like I found other high carb things to fill my day with).

More recently I cut out diet soda entirely in favor of just water, but I've actually ended up gaining weight, mostly because in retrospect it seems like I've actually replaced a lot of the diet soda with beer (or at least there was a strong inverse correlation between my beer and diet soda consumption). So now I'm working on reducing my beer intake and filling in with the occasional diet soda when I really need some tasty carbonated beverage.

Personally I've never liked flavored sparkling water. When I'm thirsty I prefer plain old water (as long as it's properly filtered), and occasionally I'll drink some unflavored sparkling water. But there's something refreshing about a cold beer or a diet dr pepper that flavored sparkling water just doesn't provide, and it seems that between those two the beer is a lot worse weight wise.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by btilly on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:05PM (#16423012)
Apparently the artificial sweeteners do something to your body by tricking it into thinking it's getting sugar...

Specifically what happens is that your brain is supposed to taste sugar, and learn to shut off your appetite when it has received enough. But artificial sweeteners teach your brain to ignore that signal because you get what tastes like sugar without getting sugar. So whatever sugary things you eat, you will eat more than you otherwise would without feeling satiated.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by cornholio on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:16PM (#16423147)
>whatever sugary things you eat, you will eat more than you otherwise would without feeling satiated

There is no scientific merit to this frequent claim. [1]

In fact, a comparative study on dieters using diet soda versus water shown that the water group lost less mass, hypothetically because they were feeling hungrier and less satisfied with their diet, thus more likely to succumb to sugary foods.

[1] Rogers, Peter J. "The role of low-calorie sweeteners in the prevention and management of overweight and obesity: evidence v. conjecture," Proceedings of the Nutrition Society

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by btilly on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:25PM (#16423261)
Huh. I made the claim based on having seen it in many places. But Google showed it to be less certain than my memory said it was.

Thanks for the correction. I'll try not to repeat this one blindly in the future.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by bitwize on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:41PM (#16423987)
The primary place I heard it was Hackernews broscience. Till now I even belueved it.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by criddell on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:20PM (#16423206)
Is this true?

It sounds a little like gym-science.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by magic_beans on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:19PM (#16423189)
I literally cannot fathom why anyone drinks soda. My parents never let me drink it and never drank it themselves (though wine was always allowed). The other day I had a sip of Coke and it was so sweet it gave me an instant headache and I needed a full glass of water after. Why do people ever give their kids soda knowing how terrible it is for you?
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by scarface74 on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:01PM (#16423632)
Are you saying that you don't understand why anyone does anything that's bad for them?

I drink soda, mostly diet, love Ice Cream and sweets and usually have a cheat day on the weekend and probably overeat once or twice during the week.

I also enjoy exercising and workout about 5-7 hours a week. There is a balance. It's no different than earning more and spending more.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by berdon on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:08PM (#16423699)
I switched from soda to diet soda and lost 30 pounds in a month. That was 10 years ago, still kept it off, still drinking diet soda.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by jdmichal on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @04:06PM (#16424198)
Additional suggestion: Drink unsweetened iced tea. That has allowed me to cut soda entirely except for treats. And has the added bonus of being available in almost every restaurant I've visited.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by jclardy on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @01:58PM (#16422939)
Yeah, a few years ago I lost 55 pounds. The primary change was just cutting out soda and an increase in light activity (mainly walking.) Also drinking more water in general. I found for me that if I went to the gym and ran I would end up overeating on those days, so instead I went with the small changes which worked well for me.

For me sodas sweetness lended well to making super salty foods taste better, by cutting out the sugar in the sodas I didn't have the same desire to eat salty fast food items.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by mywittyname on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @05:05PM (#16424671)
Soda also makes you hungry af. If I have a soda in the during, I'll be miserably hungry and "grazing" all night long. And it takes a few days for the effect to fully wear off.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by InclinedPlane on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:40PM (#16423978)
Humans aren't robots. If humans had infinite willpower and could simply do whatever they decided to do then the world would be a much different place. It's easy to get rich if you have infinite willpower. Easy to get in shape. Easy to climb mountains, run ultra marathons, cure cancer, swim the English channel, sail around the world, and so on. With enough willpower.

But that's not how humans work. If you have to choose between two diets with equal caloric intake but one of them is easier to stick to, then that one will be in practice a much more effective form of weight loss. You see a lot of people go on diets in January, you see a lot of people in the gyms in January, all those new years resolutions. And a lot of those folks seem to be very serious about it, they spend a lot of time in the gym, they put in a lot of effort. But this is one of those tortoise/hare situations. A modest diet/exercise regime that you can stick to for the rest of your life is far more valuable than one which is more effective on paper but won't be adhered to in practice.

Additionally, the thermodynamic argument (calories in vs calories out) is only mostly true in broad strokes, as a trend. Sure, if you eat few enough calories and do enough exercise you'll lose weight, and if you eat too many calories and do too little exercise then you'll gain weight. But within the boundaries there is a lot of complexity. There are regions where what you eat, the composition of your diet, and the kind of exercise you do will tip the balance one way or the other in a region of maybe a few hundred calories or so a day, and that too can make a big difference in how easy it is to maintain a diet or exercise regime and how effective it is.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by parliament32 on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @05:49PM (#16425009)
>the thermodynamic argument (calories in vs calories out) is only mostly true in broad strokes, as a trend.

It's not "mostly true". It's literally the only concrete truth in this whole field. If you consume X calories more than you burn you are _guaranteed_ to gain Y weight.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by InclinedPlane on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @06:25PM (#16425284)
I'm sorry to hear that a network malfunction prevented you from reading the remainder of my post. To reiterate, it's true only in broad strokes, human metabolism is not precisely linear, there is a non-trivial amount of "slop" in the balance. You can "consume more calories than you burn" and yet still lose weight, and you can consume fewer calories than that while "burning more calories" and end up gaining weight. If you consume many more calories or many fewer calories then you will inevitably gain or lose weight. But to maintain a healthy weight, or to maintain consistent weight loss if you are over weight, the details of what you eat are just as important as the calorie counts.

Taken together, there is very strong evidence that diets which concentrate on what you eat versus those that concentrate on calorie counting are vastly more effective.

But, you don't have to take my word for it:

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1014296

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by beagle3 on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @07:43AM (#16429007)
> It's literally the only concrete truth in this whole field

It's true only in the useless tautological sense, where your definition of "consume" and "burn" are so convoluted as to be useless.

Wood pulp is carbohydrates, which you can confirm in a bomb caloriemeter releases ~4kcal/g when burnt. But when people consume it, they derive ~0kcal/g. If you think people don't consume wood pulp, you might want to look at [0] and at the wikipedia entry for microcrystalline cellulose. Gasoline is even denser at ~12kcal/g, but still provides only ~0kcal/g.

There are much subtler examples, where at atwater factors have been shown to be ~30% different in in different measurements (between population and even for the same individual in different times). Which means that the difference between "what you consume" and "the energy you derive" is actually a random variable, with very significant variance.

And that's just the food intake; just sitting in a cold room requires much more energy than sitting in a warm room; And consuming a liter of ice cold water actually costs you ~36 kcal after your body temperature renormalizes.

So, really, it's very broad strokes.

[0] https://qz.com/223742/there-is-a-secret-ingredient-in-your-b...

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by avprpl on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:10PM (#16423073)
Calorie restriction becomes much easier when you're substituting calorie dense foods with more calorically sparse ones. It's hard to continually fight the hunger caused by just eating less over time.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by cies on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:25PM (#16423852)
The epiphany I had with this was that when you want to substitute "calorie dense foods with more calorically sparse ones" AND also get in enough nutrients, that you are basically shifting towards a WFPB diet (the type of food mankind has been eating mostly, for most of its existence)
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by KozmoNau7 on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @02:18PM (#16432088)
>WFPB

"Whole Food, Plant Based", for those who had to look it up like me.

I'm more of a "eat food, not too much, mostly plants" kind of guy, I'm not willing to give up meat, eggs and dairy. Which people have also been eating since forever.

But I agree that a lot of people are way over-complicating nutrition.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by exelius on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:10PM (#16423080)
Right; but it’s calorie restriction through food choice rather than limiting portion size which makes it feel like less of a sacrifice. You just have to change your filter of “things I like to eat” to include less calorie-dense foods, rather than “I like this thing I’m eating but I should stop halfway just to be good”
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by cstejerean on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:18PM (#16423181)
It doesn't even matter howe calorie dense the food is as long as you severely limit carbs. A slice of pizza is about 107g and has about 285 calories. A stick of butter is about 133g and has 810 calories. See if you can eat as many sticks of butter as you can slices of pizza.

High fat / low carb foods are very hard to eat in large quantities, unless you pair them with sources of carbs (put the butter on bread, add BBQ sauce to fatty meat, etc). It's not just the caloric density, it's how much of it you can eat before you feel full.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by exelius on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @06:06PM (#16425136)
Right; but dieting is almost entirely psychological — so any ways to trick your brain into eating less have to be valid diet tips, no?
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by headsoup on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @08:11PM (#16425947)
Only if weight loss by Kg is your only metric of success.

And dieting is by definition a temporary thing to fix an issue, rather than actually changing eating patterns and content permanently.

People just generally don't want to do the hard slog (i.e. in permanently avoiding sugar and carbs), they want the short term 'fix,' hence 'dieting.'

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by jandrese on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:01PM (#16422976)
Also, when you start talking about raw foods a lot of those calories won't be bioavailable. Your body simply can't extract more than a trivial amount of nutrition from raw kale.

So all the article is really saying is don't bother with the math, just eat mostly vegetables and you'll lose weight.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by Zigurd on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:08PM (#16423056)
I close to eliminated sugar, and reduced carbs, and completely eliminated highly processed foods. Over the course of 14 months I lost about 23lbs. I also cut meat consumption and alcohol, but wasn't by any stretch vegetarian or tea total. That's it. Apart from that I ate anything in any quantity I wanted.

I found the combination of things I cut back on reduced cravings and overeating. I cooked a lot more, especially bean soups to take to work for lunch. That has other benefits since I work in the land of $11 sandwiches. I tracked my weight every few days with a fitness app, which, for me, helped prevent backsliding because seeing that trend line go in the wrong direction is very irritating.

I don't have experimental evidence but anecdata indicates cutting sugar and alcohol are are the low-hanging fruit (cut way back on fruit juice, too).

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by cies on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:30PM (#16423895)
> cutting sugar and alcohol are are the low-hanging fruit

I did something very similar, then also dropped dairy and whoops some more pounds of body fat melted in the 6 months that followed.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by Zigurd on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @07:09PM (#16425590)
Yes! I forgot to mention I drink hardly any milk anymore. I keep a quart in the fridge for making pancakes. I take my coffee black or with unsweetened almond/coconut milk.

I still put sour cream on roasted potatoes, though.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by woodandsteel on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @09:53PM (#16426460)
>Maybe I missed it in the article but this just seems like calorie restriction to me. Its much harder to eat a large amount of calories if its just meat and vegetables.

When people talk about a calorie-restriction diet, what they mean is you count the calories in every food, and then keep caloric intake below a certain level by intentionally eating less than your appetite desires.

In contrast, in this diet, people focused on eating the right foods, and ate as much as they wanted, and the reduction of calories was a consequence.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by txsh on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:04PM (#16422997)
You’re not counting total calories. You’re limiting calorie density. Counting calories ignores satiety. Watching calorie density allows you to be full while limiting the calories you eat.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by MrFantastic on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:14PM (#16423119)
Avoiding sugar and processed food helps to avoid the feeling of hunger cause by insulin crashes.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by woliveirajr on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @01:53PM (#16422882)
Add some butter to your whole-grain-bread, like I do, and you'll end up with some good calories... and I always hated counting those calories that make a bread worth be eaten.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by jandrese on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @01:58PM (#16422938)
Bread is chock full of bioavailable calories to start with, adding a smear of butter on top doesn't really change it that much.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by MrFantastic on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:15PM (#16423131)
That fat blunts the insulin response.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by darpa_escapee on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:21PM (#16423827)
I've always read that the insulin response to fats + carbs is higher than carbs alone.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by pixl97 on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @10:22PM (#16426580)
Eh, I don't think that is the case. Ice cream has a much lower glycemic index than bread for example.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by adventured on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:02PM (#16423638)
Or just take r-lipoic acid after/with glucose heavy food consumption. It'll help prevent and or lessen the spike. Diabetics use it to control their glucose levels. It can significantly push that down. I'm not seriously suggesting this of course, however it does work.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by magic_beans on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:22PM (#16423223)
Bread is nothing without butter.

Exception: freshly baked baguette or ciabatta.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by cies on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:27PM (#16423872)
I've turned to hummus and veggies to cut out butter and cheese completely.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by KozmoNau7 on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @02:33PM (#16432234)
Bake better bread.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by cornholio on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:00PM (#16422969)
What they are saying is that calorie restriction works, but most people are too incompetent to follow through, so need seemingly magical alternative strategies to avoid calorie dense food.

The danger with this approach is that the average Joe hears the message as "weight is not related to how much you eat (energy/quantity), but what you eat (quality)". That message is a public health danger, yet is becoming the prevailing sentiment for health magazines, supplement marketing, popular lifestyle shows etc.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by briancleland on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:17PM (#16423158)
Absolutely nothing magical about eating when you are hungry and stopping when you are sated. As long as you avoid unhealthy, unnatural foods (primarily refined carbs) this strategy works just fine. Animals don't have to count calories to avoid obesity, no reason why humans should either.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by nikolaj on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:22PM (#16423222)
Admittedly this is only partially informed, but I am pretty sure most animals don't have access to enough calories to be obese. And those that do (e.g. pets, zoo animals) are (sometimes) kept from obesity due to careful calorie counting by their human caretakers.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:27PM (#16423290)
I think every labrador retriever on the planet would be 200 lbs if they had their way.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by trevyn on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:06PM (#16423682)
They also wouldn't be confined to a house or yard.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:18PM (#16423792)
Even farm dogs do their best to get fat. Either way, that's an indictment of activity level then, and not of food quality.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by briancleland on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:42PM (#16423457)
Eating is naturally regulated by appetite. That's why appetite and satiation exist. It's difficult to be obese when you eat only unprocessed foods. If you don't believe me, try it out. You might be surprised.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:10PM (#16423720)
You didn't address their point that zoo animals have to sometimes be kept on diets to remain slim, in spite of their all natural diet. This article seems to think it's a whole gamut of things that keeps these animals thin. http://sciencenordic.com/can-wild-animals-become-overweight

Appetite and satiation are far more complex than just "eat until your full and then stop", for instance amensiac patients have been observed to eat waaay more than they should have just because they did remember eating (Rozin et al. (1998)), even they should have by all rights been physically full. There's whole layers of cognitive, emotional, and behavioral patterns with excess food consumption.

Personally, I have been able to effectively lose and keep off weight while still enjoying all manner of unnatural foods (Ice cream, McDonald's and candy, oh my).

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by Terr_ on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:27PM (#16423867)
I had success with calorie-counting, and I think part of that came from accidentally co-opting an existing behavior involving bargain-hunting and frugality.

Food choices became about avoiding "spending" my calories on "bad deals", avoiding foods which didn't promise enjoyment commensurate to their cost.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:39PM (#16423973)
I did that too - I made sure to get my protein (via protein shakes), but after that just ate what I wanted. I developed the same habit too - I ended up restricting things like rice or pasta because I'd rather "spend" those calories on an ice cream cone.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:26PM (#16423281)
Many animals actively work towards obesity every year before hibernation. They can absolutely gain weight on all natural foods.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by briancleland on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:46PM (#16423499)
Storing up fat for hibernation is perfectly natural and has no negative effect on the health of the animal. It has nothing to do with obesity as the term is normally used.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by linkmotif on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:00PM (#16423627)
My physiology is so far removed from a wild animal’s it’s not even funny. My ancestors propagated thanks to luck, wit and guile, not their ability to get food and mate like wild animals.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by ballenarosada on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:18PM (#16423176)
I think the study shows precisely that it's not a public health danger to tell people that.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by cornholio on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:27PM (#16423285)
What exactly is a whole food? Or a non-processed food? Is honey a natural, healthy food? Are nuts and oily seeds better for your weigh than industrial potato chips? Is cold pressed sesame oil not a high calorie food?

It's a clear public safety danger to imply the above are healthier than their processed counterparts, and my main beef is with the sensationalist title, that aims right at the "calories are a myth" bandwagon. The study itself is good, if it works, it works.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by msla on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:31PM (#16423899)
You're asking questions which go against the bias, and cannot be answered without exposing deficiencies in the appeal to nature the "whole foods are best" ideology is founded on. It's disconcerting to see a fallacy being eaten whole by so many.

This page:

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFalla...

has this sentence:

> There are many natural things that are better than unnatural, but they must be evaluated based on other criteria besides the “naturalness”.

which sums up the whole thing nicely.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by briancleland on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:50PM (#16423542)
Obviously there are degrees of processing, but it's not hard to see that an apple or a carrot or even a steak are fundamentally less processed and more "natural" than a packet of chips, a bar of chocolate or a TV dinner. They are also much healthier.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by cornholio on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:13PM (#16423758)
This is a good example of prejudice. A TV dinner can be healthy if it contains suficient legumes and low fat meat. And depending on exactly what steak you are proposing and the manner of preparation, it can be significantly more calorie dense and packed with cholesterol and saturated fat.

Freezing and preservatives don't significantly alter nutritional value, and there exist low calorie frozen meals specifically formulated for dieters. Highly processed, but much healthier than some very natural wholesome steaks.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by darpa_escapee on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:09PM (#16423715)
Eh, I find it hard to judge people for being human. A solution isn't really a good solution if it's difficult to impossible to implement in practice.

This is like saying the solution to addiction is to just stop doing drugs, but people are too incompetent and need magical solutions like rehab and maintenance drugs.

Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by radley on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:01PM (#16422974)
It's not harder, just more expensive and inconvenient.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by hkmurakami on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:17PM (#16423788)
Your body is designed so that if you eat whole foods, it's very difficult to over eat.
Re:Counting Calories Is Not the Key to Weight Loss, New Stud... by cies on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:21PM (#16423822)
Small addition: whole plant foods.

That a WFPB diet works better than calorie counting is old news (good to have yet another study confirming it).

http://www.wholefoodplantbasedrd.com/2014/04/with-wfpb-there...

https://nutritionfacts.org/2016/07/14/caloric-restriction-vs...