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Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by lordnacho on Thursday October 26, 2017 @04:50AM (#15557338)
This is why I don't get why the game industry has such a bad rep for overworking people.

It's genuinely hard to do this kind of code so you'd think they take care not to scare away the few people who can do it.

I recall at one point Goldmans was bragging to my team about how they'd hired a game dev to do their click-to-trade currency UI. Seemed like the guy found an easier job for more pay.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by avar on Thursday October 26, 2017 @05:58AM (#15557583)
This is a bit like saying "I don't get why web development is overworking people, just look at all this cool stuff Google is doing with the Go runtime!".

Most people who work in the game industry are not doing deep game engine hacking, but doing grunt work like scripting/designing some scene in a giant adventure game who's going to have thousands of those, and all of those need to be finished before the release date.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by hyperpallium on Thursday October 26, 2017 @07:26AM (#15557929)
I wonder what the turn-over is for engine programmers? I'd guess very low.

I wonder how many commercial engine programmers there actually are, anyway? I'd guess very few.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by peoplewindow on Thursday October 26, 2017 @08:17AM (#15558176)
Yeah, "low and falling" for both of them.

There are only a handful of major engines today and it's been that way for years. Unreal, Unity, Frostbite .... a few games still roll their own but the costs of keeping up are getting extreme.

I really doubt the Unreal Engine developers feel abused. For one thing, the release schedules of engines and games are now to some extent disconnected. Games get whatever the engine can do. Epic isn't going to move mountains to add a feature to UE for a licensee unless they get a TON of money to do it.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by scraft on Thursday October 26, 2017 @09:59AM (#15558823)
Whilst this is true for a lot of cases, it doesn't always hold true for companies which consistently release highly profitable games, an example of such company is Travellers Tales in the UK. With their volume sales, the royalties outweigh paying for an internal team to develop the engine (multiple times over). You can check vgchartz to get some idea of their game sales, and if you are particularly inclined, use companies houe to drill down to get the P&L (although you may need to spend some time getting through their company structure to find the actual P&L which has the right information).

But for a lot of companies, using an existing engine is a no-brainer - even more so when the developer has no idea how well their game is going to do, using something like Unreal effectively means they share the risk with you.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by peoplewindow on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:02AM (#15566515)
It appears Travellers Tales makes almost exclusively Lego games. I doubt those require AAA level game engines. To clarify I was talking about high end 3D graphics.
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by hyperpallium on Thursday October 26, 2017 @08:53AM (#15558346)
We might also include engine component suppliers, such as Speed Tree, Physix, and (whoever makes) Bink Video.
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by royjacobs on Thursday October 26, 2017 @09:22AM (#15558544)
Bink is made by the awesome Rad Game Tools. They have some really good engineers on their payroll (ryg, cbloom) and they're consistently churning out cool things :)

(Disclaimer: Not affiliated, but I enjoy reading their developer's blogs)

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by mrec on Thursday October 26, 2017 @11:32AM (#15559773)
I didn't realize cbloom was a Rad person too. His "Library Writing Realizations" rant is both a) awesome and b) really hard to link to.

If you haven't seen it, go to http://cbloom.com/rants.html and search for the title.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by dgritsko on Thursday October 26, 2017 @12:49PM (#15560639)
I'd never heard of cbloom or his rants. That was an excellent read, thanks for sharing!
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by corysama on Thursday October 26, 2017 @01:14PM (#15560923)
If you haven't read ryg's blog, you should. https://fgiesen.wordpress.com/
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by dgritsko on Thursday October 26, 2017 @02:53PM (#15561878)
Thanks for the recommendation!
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by jorvi on Thursday October 26, 2017 @08:28AM (#15558218)
Its kind of amazing how Unity forced change on Epic though. In the X360-PS3 era they absolutely _dominated_ the market, the list of games built on UE during that time is insane. However, after that, Unity started to come up as it had much nicer licensing and as a response to that Epic made UE almost free to use for small studios and more palatable for big ones.
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by tapoxi on Thursday October 26, 2017 @09:25AM (#15558563)
I don't think Unity forced change on Epic, Unity targeted the nascent indie market very well and was a great replacement for the deprecated XNA. I can't think of a AAA Unity title aside from Microsoft's Recore - which launched with problems at $40.

Epic's AAA market ended up with bigger budgets and a demand for more control, so many of them simply created their own engines. So most UE games seem to be big budget indie titles (Obduction, PUBG, Psychonauts 2) or tight budget AAA titles (Street Fighter V, Shenmue III)

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by meheleventyone on Thursday October 26, 2017 @12:11PM (#15560206)
At that point Epic were offering the UDK as the indie alternative. Unity absolutely showed them the way things were going in terms of monetizing technology. Especially given the at the time exorbitant license fees for UE3. Same thing happened at Crytek too.

Part of the continuing split of Unity indie and UE4 'AA/AAA' is less to do with the capabilities of each engine and more to do with who has the longest experience with each. They both are creeping in on one anothers turf in that respect.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by cc81 on Thursday October 26, 2017 @02:41PM (#15561744)
Hearthstone is built with Unity.
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by Const-me on Thursday October 26, 2017 @05:35PM (#15563254)
> I can't think of a AAA Unity title aside from Microsoft's Recore

Cities Skylines?

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by oneweekwonder on Thursday October 26, 2017 @11:05AM (#15559469)
> I don't think Unity forced change on Epic,

I know, I know, Correlation does not imply causation. But just from wikipedia:

> On March 19, 2014, at the Game Developers Conference, Epic Games released Unreal Engine 4, and all of its tools, features and complete C++ source code, to the development community through a new subscription model.

Same year Unity took best engine.

> In July 2014, Unity won the "Best Engine" award at the UK's annual Develop Industry Excellence Awards.[1]

Unity made Epic react.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreal_Engine#Unreal_Engine_4 [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_(game_engine)#History

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by peoplewindow on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:10AM (#15566548)
It may be that Unity/Unreal influenced each other but it was hardly reacting to the way the market was going. Many top AAA games are now made with Frostbite which isn't even available publicly at all, it's entirely EA proprietary. If "cheap and open" was such a clear trend Frostbite wouldn't exist.
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by theandrewbailey on Thursday October 26, 2017 @10:05AM (#15558878)
Wikipedia's insane list of Unreal games: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by talmand on Thursday October 26, 2017 @12:39PM (#15560497)
Imagine the royalties.
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by hyperpallium on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:29AM (#15565924)
In a sense, the amazing thing is that Epic changed. In the past, incumbents didn't, and failed. Today, companies know about this dynamic, and try to adapt and undercut themselves before an upstart can. It takes some steel to let go of all that short-term profit.

Even so, it may be too little too late for Epic. It's straightforward to drop prices, but difficult to change business models, release timeframes, market position in customer's minds, codebase, customer feedback from a new usage.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by hyperpallium on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:29AM (#15565927)
In a sense, the amazing thing is that Epic actually changed. In the past, incumbents didn't, and failed. Today, companies know about this dynamic, and try to adapt and undercut themselves before an upstart can. It takes some steel to let go of all that short-term profit.

Even so, it may be too little too late for Epic. It's straightforward to drop prices, but difficult to change business models, release timeframes, market position in customer's minds, codebase, customer feedback from a new usage.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by pandaman on Thursday October 26, 2017 @10:28AM (#15559080)
Most AAA studios have "engine" programmers (they are called graphics programmers in the industry). Even if such a studio uses UE or some other licensed engine there are still programmers who are modifying it.
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by Impossible on Thursday October 26, 2017 @11:09AM (#15559499)
Graphics programming is not engine programming, although it can be viewed as a subset of it. Most large game studios have engine programmers that do very little graphics programming, if any. The majority of code in a game engine is not related to the renderer. I've worked in the industry on AAA and indie games and have worked in both roles, which are often different engineering teams.
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by pandaman on Thursday October 26, 2017 @11:24AM (#15559685)
I work in the industry now and had been since 90s. "Engine" roles, if exist, are for stuff like streaming, save/load etc. The thing described in TFA is graphics programming.
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by pavlov on Thursday October 26, 2017 @05:55AM (#15557571)
Game industry is like Hollywood. There's an endless supply of highly talented hopefuls from all around the world who want to get into the industry more than anything else.

The focus of exploitation is just different -- the Harvey Weinsteins of the game industry don't try to sleep with brilliant Romanian programmers, instead they work them to death.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by mariusmg on Thursday October 26, 2017 @06:00AM (#15557588)
"the Harvey Weinsteins of the game industry don't try to sleep with brilliant Romanian programmers, instead they work them to death."

As a romanian programmer (although not in the game industry), i must admit this is a very eloquently put. Hats off to you sir.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by vvanders on Thursday October 26, 2017 @10:10AM (#15558938)
As an ex-game dev this is pretty on the mark.

They've honed using your "passion" to extract as much work as they can from you for ~2-3 years. After which there's a 50/50 shot that the studio folds/etc.

In the AAA space there's also a vicious 90/10 rule where 10% of the games make 90% of the money. With rising costs it becomes increasingly difficult to keep hitting that 10% you need to keep your studio running.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by hacker_9 on Thursday October 26, 2017 @05:25AM (#15557466)
This is just capitalism at work; in the game industry there is no guaranteed reward at the end of the development cycle, so you have to keep up the pressure in order to beat out your competitors, and increase your chances of winning. This leads to crunching, 60 hour weeks and mass layoffs when you lose - lookup any of the top AAA game companies on Glassdoor and you will find they are awful places to work (Projekt Red, Rockstar, the now extinct Crytek, EA - consistently voted 'Worst Company', etc).
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by dkersten on Thursday October 26, 2017 @08:05AM (#15558117)
> in the game industry there is no guaranteed reward at the end of the development cycle

The same is true for any product industry. There are things you can do (customer development, short iterations that involve your potential customers, etc) to increase the chances, but if you're not doing work for clients directly, then there is no guarantee.

Note that the "doing work for clients directly" exists in game development too, there are many freelance or services companies that do work for other companies, and from what I hear about the game industry, these have much more guaranteed pay, just like outside of games. Its the "build the product, when its done, hope someone buys it" type of work that has no guarantees, but that is in no way unique to game development.

The difference is, most other industries don't have such crazy crunch times...

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by Retric on Thursday October 26, 2017 @10:03AM (#15558870)
Games don't have inherently have crazy crunch times, they are simply going to fire a lot of people so they don't care about burning them out.

It's completely rational behavior that has nothing to do with games, just look at MMO's for a more reasonable development process.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by dkersten on Thursday October 26, 2017 @11:48AM (#15559975)
Of course there’s nothing inherent about it, but it does seem that many games companies do follow some rather predatory practices.
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by hacker_9 on Thursday October 26, 2017 @08:24AM (#15558202)
Yeah I agree, the problem applies to most of the entertainment industry. As a result more investment is put into sequels of successful games, artists, TV shows, movies, books etc.

Edit: as for crunch times, I expect this is to do with the interactive element of gaming. There is whole lot more work involved when the client has the ability to break your product.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by 0xcde4c3db on Thursday October 26, 2017 @09:42AM (#15558689)
My understanding is that crunch time (as well as the release of flagrantly buggy games with patches coming later) is driven primarily by marketing schedules/budgets. Ad buys, press releases, interviews etc. are negotiated and coordinated months in advance, and big releases from any given publisher need to be staggered largely so that they don't all demand marketing money at the same time.
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by cma on Thursday October 26, 2017 @02:19PM (#15561550)
Publishers give advances, have milestones, etc. It is uncertain whether a game will make money out in the market, but part of a publisher's role is supposed to be to have a portfolio and be able to spread that risk, funding some of the development of both the losers and the winners.
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by skocznymroczny on Thursday October 26, 2017 @08:26AM (#15558213)
EA isn't voted worst company for their working conditions. They're not even that voted for the quality/popularity of their games (games like Battlefront or Battlefield still sell very well). It's just a recognisable brand that people like to criticise, and that makes it an easy target for organized voting. Ubisoft is also in that category.
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by bsenftner on Thursday October 26, 2017 @08:40AM (#15558284)
I could argue that - years at EA, and their abuse.
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by falcolas on Thursday October 26, 2017 @10:21AM (#15559035)
Indeed. The fact that EA was successfully sued for overtime pay for salaried devs speaks volumes, both about their pay and the working conditions.
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by BatFastard on Thursday October 26, 2017 @10:27AM (#15559071)
That's because game devs don't know what life is like for other programmers. Longer hours and lower pay, but you get to work on what you love (every blue moon or so).
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by staticelf on Thursday October 26, 2017 @06:17AM (#15557640)
Looked up several of the companies you mention and most of them have a pretty high ratings. EA is voted worst company by consumers, not by employees which is pretty misleading.

Please stop lying.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by hacker_9 on Thursday October 26, 2017 @06:25AM (#15557667)
I'm not lying, read the actual reviews and don't just look at the review score. The good reviews come from people who don't mind working 60 hour weeks, being paid lower salaries, and getting overworked.
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by staticelf on Thursday October 26, 2017 @06:35AM (#15557697)
I dont have an account so I can only see 1 review for each company. But it is a bit strange to say that only some reviews count and not the others.

Of course most people care if you're being overworked for a small amount of compensation. Your statement is a bit ridicolous.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by hacker_9 on Thursday October 26, 2017 @06:53AM (#15557762)
I'm not going to argue as I see you're trolling, but it takes 2 seconds to sign in and read the reviews. Most good reviews from Projekt Red for example are from full time employees who say they love working there, but then list cons such as: 'Economically things can get tough due to lower salaries' and 'I would not recommend this company for those who are not ready to push themselves and those who just want a 9 to 17h without any trouble.' etc.
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by staticelf on Thursday October 26, 2017 @04:08PM (#15562537)
I'm not trolling but you cant take 1 company and have their reviews as "this is how it is in the entire industry".

I don't want to sign in though, since that service offers nothing for me as a non american.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by fnord123 on Thursday October 26, 2017 @08:00AM (#15558094)
>Of course most people care if you're being overworked for a small amount of compensation. Your statement is a bit ridicolous.

And yet academia.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by dang on Saturday October 28, 2017 @03:59PM (#15576534)
> Please stop lying.

This breaks the HN guidelines. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by staticelf on Thursday October 26, 2017 @06:06AM (#15557608)
I think it depends a lot of which company you work for and where in the world you work. For example, there is a lot of game companies in my country and it's illegal to require people to work more than 40 hours a week.

I think some may do it anyway by free will or by social pressure, but these people are probably pretty rare. In my country (Sweden) we don't really have a culture where companies pressure people into working more in general so those who do often meet a lot of social uproar and protests.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by goos on Thursday October 26, 2017 @07:21AM (#15557900)
As a fellow Swede, I think that's slightly disingenuous. Sure, companies can't officially force you to work overtime, but for sure there are many instances where people are encouraged to bring work home or pull some extra hours to make a deadline – especially at smaller companies.
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by staticelf on Thursday October 26, 2017 @04:06PM (#15562515)
Yeah sure, but it's far from the work environment in the states or even in other countries in europe. Require people to do some extra hours sometimes is often part of every contract but I have never been required to do so.

Once I had a boss that wanted me to work overtime "unofficially" but I refused. Needless to say, I left that place pretty quickly.

I don't work in the game industry, but I know some people who do and they never work overtime.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by pjc50 on Thursday October 26, 2017 @05:32AM (#15557487)
People get into the games industry for the "intrinsic reward" (ie they think it's cool) rather than the money or the working conditions. The games industry exploits this badly.
Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by mschaef on Thursday October 26, 2017 @08:06AM (#15558123)
> Goldmans ... hired a game dev to do their click-to-trade currency UI. Seemed like the guy found an easier job for more pay.

Not necessarily easier... but definitely a different set of difficulties.

Re:How Unreal Renders a Frame by smcl on Thursday October 26, 2017 @11:37AM (#15559846)
I interpreted "easier" as in "I don't have to work 16+ hour days regularly"