News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by Deimorz on Saturday August 12, 2017 @12:02PM (#14998394)
Personally, I think Google is just as terrifying, possibly more.

As an example, just take a fairly normal life situation like going out for dinner with some friends, and think about how much of it goes "through" Google:

---

One of your friends sends an email to 6 others, to ask if everyone's free for dinner on Friday. 5 of the 7 people involved use gmail or a google apps address.

You've never heard of the restaurant they're suggesting, so you search for it on Google to see what kind of food it is.

You click to the restaurant's site. It uses Google Analytics, so even though you're no longer on Google, it still knows the exact path you take through the site while you're "outside".

You decide the restaurant looks good, and enter the dinner into Google Calendar.

On Friday, you use Google Maps to get to the restaurant, so Google knows exactly where you were before, what time you left, and the route you took. While you're driving, maybe you send a couple of text messages using the Google voice assistant.

At the restaurant, it turns out your friend Doug is there, even though he wasn't part of the emails. During dinner, you're all trying to remember the name of that movie where Shaq plays a genie, so both you and Doug grab your phones and google for phrases like "shaq movie genie" at about the same time. Even though Doug wasn't included in any of the planning, Google now knows that you're almost certainly together, and what you're talking about.

You finish your meal and pay via the restaurant's Square system, which emails the receipt to your gmail address. Google now knows exactly what you ate, and how much you paid for it.

You use Google Maps again when leaving, telling Google exactly how long you stayed at the restaurant and where you're going next.

---

I didn't even push that very far. There are multiple other things I could have easily added, and you can do this with almost any situation. It's quite insane how much Google knows about what people are doing all the time, and the level of detail they can get by combining these things.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by dannysu on Saturday August 12, 2017 @01:01PM (#14998730)
Facebook is like a Casino. They'll try to maneuver to keep you engaged and contain you in their bubble. However, if you're able to leave or cut your usage, they extend no influence whatsoever. (Don't have mobile apps installed, block their trackers, don't use Facebook login, etc) There are lots of ways to communicate outside of Facebook, including other messaging apps that help you form social networks outside of it. My extended family use Line for communication.

Google on the other hand is like the road. You can't avoid the road.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by beagle3 on Saturday August 12, 2017 @03:24PM (#14999522)
> However, if you're able to leave or cut your usage, they extend no influence whatsoever.

My friends often upload pictures of me, tagged with GPS coordinates and user; And even though most have stopped tagging me (as I have asked), Facebook often does offer them to tag me, which means that Facebook has enough pictures of me to identify me in random pictures (even though I never uploaded a single one myself).

Google collects information from users themselves, and have some info from people mailing them (if you are not on google yourself, it's likely more than half your emails are still coming or going to a google server).

But Facebook has co-opted your friends and family to spy on you, all day every day. Very much big brother.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by saurik on Saturday August 12, 2017 @04:05PM (#14999690)
When you upload photos to Facebook as part of an album, my experience is it doesn't even ask: it just goes ahead and tags people it recognizes, and it even sends them a push notification that you did that even before you click "save" on the album (it even attempts to live synchronize the text you are typing as the album description, which is insane).
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by netsharc on Monday August 14, 2017 @12:54AM (#15006637)
In my imaginary screenplay, a guy is hiding from the US government, but the NSA will find him because they have access to Facebook's face recognition system, and he happens to be in the background of a photo a tourist took.. "We have a face recognition hit, he's in... Thailand!"
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by jaflo on Saturday August 12, 2017 @08:10PM (#15000784)
What do you mean by live synchronizing the description?
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by saurik on Saturday August 12, 2017 @11:05PM (#15001277)
Like, every few seconds the description of the in-progress album is synchronized to the live album you don't even realize is live yet.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by pyman on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @12:21PM (#15082787)
Facebook is worst than the KGB
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by glibgil on Saturday August 12, 2017 @04:27PM (#14999796)
You can turn this off. You don't need to ask your friends to stop. https://www.facebook.com/help/187272841323203
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by AlexandrB on Saturday August 12, 2017 @07:13PM (#15000572)
I'm willing to bet the difference is purely cosmetic. Facebook likely still runs facial recognition on all uploaded photos even if it doesn't suggest tags.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by ryukafalz on Sunday August 13, 2017 @08:48AM (#15002693)
Not only that, they need to do facial recognition for that setting to work.

>When you turn off tag suggestions, Facebook won’t suggest that people tag you in photos that look like you.

Otherwise, how would they know it looks like you?

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by rmc on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @11:25AM (#15019090)
> which means that Facebook has enough pictures of me to identify me in random pictures (even though I never uploaded a single one myself).

Facebook probably uses more than just facial recognition, it can also use the metadata. They know who uploaded it, so they can narrow down the "list of candidate faces" from 7 billion to the much smaller number of people your friend knows/tags people in photos.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by 0xbear on Sunday August 13, 2017 @03:56AM (#15002011)
You can't avoid FB either. It tracks you even if you're not logged in, and even if you don't have an account. And by tracking you across sites it can infer your age group, gender, sexual orientation, political leanings, income bracket, and other personal preferences through simple co-visitation mining. And they know your rough location via geolocation, too, as well as how many people live in your household, whether you have kids and how old they are (assuming they browse the web), etc. None of this requires you to volunteer any data about yourself, and none of this (in the US) requires your consent.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by wutbrodo on Sunday August 13, 2017 @03:19PM (#15004428)
> It tracks you even if you're not logged in, and even if you don't have an account. And by tracking you across sites it can infer your age group, gender, sexual orientation, political leanings, income bracket, and other personal preferences through simple co-visitation mining.

I've logged into Facebook in incognito mode for the last decade. It's really not that difficult to avoid doing this. By contrast, I might visit a dozen different Google services over the course of the day, their apps are a lot more indispensable (mobile web Maps is no fun), etc so it's a lot higher effort to do so for them.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by slester on Sunday August 13, 2017 @11:14AM (#15003220)
Sure you can -- install an adblocker or one of the other extensions that allows you to block FB tracking. I agree that that only protects those tech-savvy enough to know how FB is tracking you and what to do about it, but there are steps we can take while fighting against corporate mass surveillance.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by creaghpatr on Saturday August 12, 2017 @02:35PM (#14999227)
The book Addiction by Design is really good for understanding the science of casinos and how social media may or may not be using those tactics. Not hard to spot the coincidences
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by j_s on Saturday August 12, 2017 @07:56PM (#15000735)
The Classic "HOWTO" for software: Hooked by Nir Eyal (2009) https://amzn.com/dp/B00LMGLXTS

A New "History": Irresistible by Adam Alter (2017) https://amzn.com/dp/1594206643/

Your Recommendation: Addiction by Design by Natasha Dow Schüll (2014) https://amzn.com/dp/0691160880

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by NetOpWibby on Sunday August 13, 2017 @01:07PM (#15003756)
Thanks for the links!
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by raverbashing on Saturday August 12, 2017 @04:42PM (#14999857)
(thankfully I guess) there's so much trash in fb it's actually making it less engaging
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by fao_ on Saturday August 12, 2017 @01:32PM (#14998893)
Roads are pretty benign, and they don't steal your location data and store it in their database
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by AndrewKemendo on Saturday August 12, 2017 @01:52PM (#14998972)
I hate to break it to you but the state police and most toll road authorities have put an entire network of cameras on every major interstate and road system to be able to track cars.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by lucaspiller on Sunday August 13, 2017 @01:15AM (#15001636)
Even outside the US this is true. I live in Lithuania and a couple years ago I started noticing cameras along the side of most highways. They've now started using them to enforce average speeds, but to everyone here it should be pretty clear they are tracking the movements of vehicles (whether intentional or not is a different question).

A lot of other European countries have automated toll roads (sometimes just for HGVs) which do the same thing.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by nebabyte on Sunday August 13, 2017 @08:09AM (#15002588)
One of the upshots at least of living in countries other than America that follow its worst practices are that they're generally much worse in execution, i.e. they end up making it obvious

So that's good at least

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by DenisM on Saturday August 12, 2017 @02:36PM (#14999232)
If that were true would there still be a need for amber alert?
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by mulmen on Saturday August 12, 2017 @03:43PM (#14999587)
Yes because cameras do not cover all parts of every road.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by fao_ on Saturday August 12, 2017 @03:39PM (#14999570)
I don't live in America :P
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by AndrewKemendo on Saturday August 12, 2017 @06:11PM (#15000303)
Looks like you're from Wales. Here's a great national site that you can see the live traffic cameras:

http://www.traffic-wales.com/?lang=en-GB

Just filter the map by CCTV and choose the icon to view the live video.

Enjoy!

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by justinclift on Sunday August 13, 2017 @05:57AM (#15002295)
Seems like a single photo only for each camera, no "live"?
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by Cyph0n on Saturday August 12, 2017 @03:58PM (#14999667)
Most developed countries have similar systems in place. Heck, I'd wager that the US is lagging behind other countries in this area, primarily due to its size.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by bjelkeman-again on Saturday August 12, 2017 @05:17PM (#15000020)
What is this list of most countries? I am certain this is illegal in Sweden, for example.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by AndrewKemendo on Saturday August 12, 2017 @06:07PM (#15000284)
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by detaro on Saturday August 12, 2017 @06:10PM (#15000297)
Having cameras and having an effective tracking system based on them is a big difference. (No idea about the swedish situation, but in Germany proposals to give police access to information from traffic enforcement cameras for criminal cases have been a huge topic)
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by AndrewKemendo on Saturday August 12, 2017 @06:18PM (#15000331)
If I can access the feed I can build a tracking system (how effective it is, is always a big variable).
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by jacquesm on Saturday August 12, 2017 @06:11PM (#15000301)
No, but there are plenty of cameras in South Wales.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by mattlondon on Saturday August 12, 2017 @04:27PM (#14999794)
You can go a long way to blocking a lot of these by using some alternatives:

* Using DuckDuckGo (https://duckduckgo.com/). It is really decent and has good desktop and mobile integration.

* Using a browser like Brave (https://www.brave.com/) that blocks trackers etc. Android app is superb.

* Using a Maps replacement like OSM (https://www.openstreetmap.org) on desktop and OsmAnd on mobile (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand)

* Pay in cash, or pay using pre-paid credit cards that you change every couple of months.

* For real paranoia, get a VPN app and pick a new country & server every day.

Email is harder if you are emailing people who use gmail. For what it is worth, as of June 2017 gmail no longer scans email content for ads (in both commercial and consumer/free gmail - https://www.blog.google/products/gmail/g-suite-gains-tractio...) Personally I use my inbox as my calendar - dont think you're missing much by just not using calendar at all unless you have a very, very hectic schedule.

I deleted my facebook account many years ago. I've not missed it.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by mattmanser on Saturday August 12, 2017 @07:30PM (#15000642)
I've been trying to use DDG for the last 6 months. Ultimately I'd say 40% of my queries I now just force google with '!g' instead. I was quite bullish on it 6 months ago, but must admit that after 6 months, anything complex I !g straightaway.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by StavrosK on Saturday August 12, 2017 @07:41PM (#15000683)
I've had the opposite experience. I've been using it for many months and I only !g code searches or searches where DDG's results were disappointing, most of which end up disappointing on Google as well.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by mattmanser on Saturday August 12, 2017 @08:16PM (#15000808)
I find that hard to believe if you're a programmer, as any complex programming question !g is almost always better.

As well as anything local. If you search for a fairly common venue name, google will always get you a much better result.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by et1337 on Saturday August 12, 2017 @08:31PM (#15000855)
I've also used DuckDuckGo for years now, often for programming questions, and the handful of times I've resorted to !g it was 50/50 as to whether Google had better results.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by aabaker99 on Sunday August 13, 2017 @12:11AM (#15001434)
It's given that Google will give better search results. They track you.

I have the opposite experience regarding programming questions though. I thought that part of the initial appeal of DDG was that it handled queries that involved syntax or symbols better. I suppose these types of queries may not be that "complex" though. I admit I often query just to verify the API or to check how to do a common task in a language I am less familiar with.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by jhasse on Sunday August 13, 2017 @03:22AM (#15001917)
> It's given that Google will give better search results. They track you.

IIRC they won't if you search via !g on ddg.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by StavrosK on Sunday August 13, 2017 @11:02AM (#15003159)
I find that hard to believe. DDG just redirects you to Google, it doesn't do anything fancier.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by jhasse on Sunday August 13, 2017 @03:35PM (#15004503)
You're right.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by saywatnow on Saturday August 12, 2017 @10:23PM (#15001152)
> I find it hard to believe if you're a programmer

Some people work better with reference documentation, books and their brain than SO "answers".

Google for "complex programming questions" is laughable and honestly a bit insulting to the profession.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by stinos on Sunday August 13, 2017 @04:06AM (#15002041)
SO "answers"

That is also laughable and more than a bit insulting:

- most of the answers (I encountered) are in fact proper and correct answers because bascially it's a peer-reviewed environment, so no need for those snarky quatation marks. I, and many others, have spent hours and hours writing down good answers, and learning quite a bit while doing so.

- DDG/Google/... know about SO so it is often possible to get these answers way faster than when using the reference documentation, and your brain cannot change much about it

- you'll find answers which are nowhere to be found in the reference documentation - I assume your point is that with enough reference documentation and thinking any complex programming problem can be tackled. Well, yeah I guess, but it takes way more time than needed and anecdotally I have seen code written by people thinking that and it was one horrid mess. Mostly because stuff like 'good practices' and insight in design principles and patterns and whatnot isn't found in reference documentation. While via frequenting SO (and similar, before that existed) you pick up this stuff automatically and it makes you reflect on programming which in turn makes you better. If you use your brain, that is.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by tu6 on Sunday August 13, 2017 @12:11PM (#15003435)
I have been using zealdocs for a couple months now. Which is basically offline official docs/tutorials/examples my Google and SO usage has dropped quite a bit. If you read the Stackoverflow post on why they discontinued their documentation feature - one of the reasons was official docs aren't as broken as ppl think.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by StavrosK on Monday August 14, 2017 @09:15AM (#15008344)
Damn, thank you for that! Zealdocs is fantastic, I've been looking for something like that for a while, mostly for coding on flights!
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by viral_krieger on Sunday August 13, 2017 @01:11AM (#15001623)
Why is Googling a programming question insulting to the profession?

I find it laughable that you think there is something wrong with looking for resources relating to complex programming questions. I can't tell you how many times Googling a niche and complex problem instantly solved my issue. Sometimes SO is the only site that has fixes for bugs in the program you're using or mistakes in the documentation.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by tu6 on Sunday August 13, 2017 @12:20PM (#15003480)
Well Google is pretty shit if the same keyword combos occur in multiple complex answers. It can even be a waste of time/send you off on a wild goose chase VS just reading a book. Google benefits from the fact that most people's attention spans and patience has dropped.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by Gracana on Sunday August 13, 2017 @10:01AM (#15002931)
What really killed google for me was their gradual transition to showing results that are the most popular thing that's merely related to your search terms. Whereas DDG wouldn't show me many good results for some searches, google shows me endless links to high-profile stuff that is explicitly not what I asked for. Contrived example: search for "vegan meals", and google goes "vegan, hmm.. oh, MEALS! Yes! Here's everything I know about MEALS! Here's some steaks you should buy!" The only way I can get good results out of google these days is to perform the search, then switch it to verbatim mode.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by StavrosK on Sunday August 13, 2017 @12:00PM (#15003401)
Yeah, I don't understand why they feel the need to ignore whole terms.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by kerkeslager on Saturday August 12, 2017 @09:59PM (#15001098)
This is taking "but it's so convenient to give up my privacy!" to a new level. Now it's "but if I don't give up my privacy can't micro-optimize my life!"?

For framework configuration questions just search Stack(Overflow|Exchange) directly. For local results append the name of your city.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by mattmanser on Sunday August 13, 2017 @07:16PM (#15005526)
Generally speaking SO's search (and reddit, and HN, etc.) are far worse than Google's.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by earenndil on Monday August 14, 2017 @05:07AM (#15007395)
Try using startpage. It's essentially a proxy for google, but since lots of people are using it, it has no way to connect the searches. And by using it, you're actually improving its privacy by increasing the number of different people whose traffic comes to google from startpage.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by hiq on Sunday August 13, 2017 @04:53AM (#15002142)
You can at least use !s (startpage) instead.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by dorfsmay on Sunday August 13, 2017 @03:03AM (#15001862)
What about using google in an incognito tab?
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by thestepafter on Sunday August 13, 2017 @09:29AM (#15002824)
When you open the incognito tab it is clearly stated that incognito only stops information from being saved locally.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by dorfsmay on Sunday August 13, 2017 @10:52PM (#15006340)
Information saved locally is the main way sites such as google identify you (cookies mainly).

If you open an incognito window for all your searches, do not signin and close it right after, search engine will not associate your searches with you.

This is not enough to protect you from an evil company or government, but will affect which ads are presented to you, your search results, and should prevent your name from being associated with those searches should that search company date be compromised.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by a_imho on Sunday August 13, 2017 @05:26AM (#15002218)
Pay in cash

Lately I've been wondering whether I should withdraw most of my money from the bank. Any serious drawback to that approach? For one, I don't like my transactions being tracked and two, find it outrageous I have to pay various fees to use/access my money while it is used to enrich others.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by ibejoeb on Sunday August 13, 2017 @07:05AM (#15002435)
You can address your two problems without dropping the bank.

You should be quite able to find a bank or credit union that will hold your money without charging a fee. Where are you?

You can still use cash to avoid tracking, and you can even thwart forensics by making regular uniform withdrawals. The neat thing is that patterning like this makes you less susceptible to analysis but far more susceptible to getting mugged because now we know that you pull $400 every Tuesday at 3pm. Pick your poison.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by jff on Sunday August 13, 2017 @10:45AM (#15003083)
> find it outrageous I have to pay various fees to use/access my money while it is used to enrich others.

Where are you banking? My bank pays me interest, even on my checking account, and I don't need to worry about a burglar taking all my savings. There's no reason you can't keep your money at the bank, stop using credit cards, and pay everything in cash; all the bank will know is that you withdraw $200 every week.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by danielbln on Sunday August 13, 2017 @06:00AM (#15002304)
Think long and hard about secure storage then. Fireproof safe, bolted to the wall, at the least. Also, carrying wads of cash with you when you travel is a security risk, either via theft, or just by losing it.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by j_s on Saturday August 12, 2017 @07:43PM (#15000690)
Not sure how far along this project is, but MicroG intends to replace Google Play Services as their core invasion of privacy on Android devices.

https://microg.org/ | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12864429

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by pxeboot on Saturday August 12, 2017 @05:58PM (#15000246)
Thanks. I have been using Firefox + uBlock on Android, but Brave seems to run much better on my non-flagship smartphone.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by benevol on Saturday August 12, 2017 @04:59PM (#14999930)
And don't forget to protect yourself against browser and device fingerprint tracking.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by mattlondon on Saturday August 12, 2017 @05:30PM (#15000095)
I think that brave is working on anti-fingerprinting stuff too: https://brave.com/bebraveday/
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by glandium on Saturday August 12, 2017 @05:49PM (#15000196)
> For what it is worth, as of June 2017 gmail no longer scans email content for ads

The important part of that sentence is "for ads". Obviously, they don't do antispam out of thin air, they still have to scan email for it.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by shubb on Saturday August 12, 2017 @06:28PM (#15000387)
Lately, they are offering quite good context sensitive caned responses.

For instance I got an email earlier confirming a cancellation due to illness. It suggested I respond 'Thank you for your understanding'.

That's some quite good natural language stuff running on every email, presumably building a model.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by statguy on Sunday August 13, 2017 @04:07AM (#15002042)
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by wfunction on Saturday August 12, 2017 @07:57PM (#15000744)
I just installed Brave. Then I realized it doesn't allow Chrome extensions? I have so many ranging from email notifiers to cookie opt-outs to my own custom extensions for security and usability (like one that colors usernames on HN, for example)... how should I give all those up just to use a different browser?
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by jaflo on Saturday August 12, 2017 @08:08PM (#15000778)
I think this is more about mobile browser choice (Chrome on Android has no extension support). On desktop, Firefox and Chromium are nice alternatives.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by aphextron on Saturday August 12, 2017 @12:42PM (#14998623)
The conclusion I've come to regarding Google is that you just have to accept it for now. The services that they provide are so above and beyond anything from any other provider that to not use them puts you at a great disadvantage. Google search is an order of magnitude above the competition. There is no serious alternative to Google maps. The level of integration that Google Calendar has with practically everything is unmatched. As such I've placed my trust for now in Google and only Google. That's the key. I've decided to collocate all of my privacy concerns to one single company which I feel is at least moderately trustworthy, and which supports an open Web. Because in the end, I do not think that Google is fundamentally evil.

Facebook on the other hand provides absolutely nothing of value to anyone really. The entirety of their service can be replaced with an IRC client and a free image host. The walled garden they have cultivated will be laughed at in the future the same way we see AOL now. I am completely convinced that they are a fundamentally evil company. The sooner the world realizes that it is nothing more than a creepy spying/advertisement platform the better.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by dTal on Saturday August 12, 2017 @01:34PM (#14998898)
Neither is "fundamentally evil", and also both are. They are both corporations attempting to keep you in their ecosystem, using similar methods, that fundamentally make their money from targeting ads to you. There's no evil overlord at the top of either company (I hope) - their evilness must be judged by how likely each of them are to lead us into a techno-dystopia. And the more you consolidate to Google, the closer they become to The Corporation from every dystopian sci-fi ever.

Also, Facebook does provide something of value, though the cost is too great: they are the centralised provider of the One True Social Graph, and by extension your True Identity, which has numerous uses and no decentralised competitor. It's increasingly popular to use Facebook login on third party sites, because it mitigates to some extent the creation of throwaway accounts, which was hitherto considered a largely intractable problem.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by aphextron on Saturday August 12, 2017 @02:32PM (#14999200)
> There's no evil overlord at the top of either company (I hope)

We'll have to disagree here. I think Zuckerberg is an evil, amoral person to his core. This hardly needs reposting, but I can't recall Brin or Page ever going on the record calling their users "dumb fucks".[0]

[0] http://www.businessinsider.com/embarrassing-and-damaging-zuc...

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by dTal on Saturday August 12, 2017 @02:49PM (#14999311)
Sure. And former Google CEO Eric Schmidt famously remarked on the subject of privacy, "If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."

Whatever you think of the people, corporations are not people and their behaviour is only partially directed by them. The most reliable predictor of their direction is their bottom line, and the intelligence of the people they hire to improve it.

Bear in mind that Google was so self-aware of the abuse potential of their position that they adopted "Don't be evil" as a corporate motto - until they dropped it on the grounds that it was underspecified, which strikes me as a quintessential example of corporate amoralism - evil, if you will.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by timrichard on Saturday August 12, 2017 @04:31PM (#14999814)
Personally - I'm very aware that both track people obsessively, and I don't really go in for cheerleading US megacorps. However - Facebook feels a lot more evil to me.

It's the constant cat and mouse game. I go in periodically to tighten my security settings and close off more notifications, and they find new vectors to spam me into coming back into their walled garden. Their "frictionless sharing" always feels more like "frictionless privacy betrayal", as it's totally in their interest to disseminate whatever info they can gain as widely as possible. To blur the line between private and public for their benefit.

I don't close my account completely, because I go in once a year to thank people for the birthday greets. They find 21st century AOL more convenient for this than email.

In contrast, I'm one of those oddballs who still uses Google+. Almost exclusively with remote family, to share photos that we've taken during the week to talk about during a hangout. The default sharing "circle" is limited to close family, and that works well.

Feels like a pretty different experience from FB to me.

Plus, I think FB's aggressive cultivation of online relationships erodes old meatspace ones. It's human nature that just casually swiping on your smartphone screen for a status refresh and dopamine hit from your sofa is going to be easier than arranging to meet groups of friends in person. I've certainly found this with some people who live in the same city as me. So I wouldn't say FB is useless - I think it's slightly worse than that.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by icelancer on Sunday August 13, 2017 @03:05AM (#15001869)
>Sure. And former Google CEO Eric Schmidt famously remarked on the subject of privacy, "If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."

This is constantly posted out of context.

"If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place, but if you really need that kind of privacy, the reality is that search engines including Google do retain this information for some time, and it's important, for example that we are all subject in the United States to the Patriot Act. It is possible that that information could be made available to the authorities."

He is talking about not using their services because they are subject to US law, which specifically violates privacy by its very nature.

Schmidt also said:

"You have to fight for your privacy, or you will lose it. Whenever there’s a conflict, the logic of security will trump the right to privacy."

There's more nuance to him than that quote.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by fiatpandas on Sunday August 13, 2017 @07:18AM (#15002465)
Whenever someone posts this comment in response to the out of context quote, I think to my self that it still really doesn't change my opinion or reading of it.

The dumb part about what Schmidt said is he presumes there is nothing worthwhile about privacy before quickly alluding to a legitimate need for it.

The point about US law is less relevant for me, it's his immediate gut reaction to the legitimacy of privacy.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by icelancer on Sunday August 13, 2017 @01:29PM (#15003865)
>The dumb part about what Schmidt said is he presumes there is nothing worthwhile about privacy

That's not at all what he's saying. Like... not at all. But alright.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by aphextron on Saturday August 12, 2017 @06:06PM (#15000283)
>Bear in mind that Google was so self-aware of the abuse potential of their position that they adopted "Don't be evil" as a corporate motto - until they dropped it on the grounds that it was underspecified, which strikes me as a quintessential example of corporate amoralism - evil, if you will.

This is why Zuckerberg and Facebook bothers me so much. He is seemingly completely unaware or unwilling to admit the potential for abuse that his technology has created. His messianic complex disallows him from even acknowledging that perhaps there are tradeoffs being made in the name of "connecting the world (that is, making absurd profits)" which are compromising the very stability of our civilization.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by gaius on Sunday August 13, 2017 @08:47AM (#15002688)
"Do know evil" is a better motto for them.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by ryanwaggoner on Saturday August 12, 2017 @03:26PM (#14999527)
This is such a stupid argument. He was what, 20 years old? And FB was a tiny nothing at that point. And let's face it, he probably wasn't wrong to think that users were dumb to upload private data to some random POS website.

I'm sure you never said anything at 20 on IM with a friend that could be used in isolation more than a decade later to show that you're an evil person, right?

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by dTal on Sunday August 13, 2017 @09:32AM (#15002836)
The context is actually much worse than the "dumb fucks". He was actively offering to share the information of his users with his friend - "selling" it as it were for mere social kudos. It shows that even at that early stage, he perceived Facebook as a vehicle for collecting and exploiting the personal info of his users, exploiting even before he had a clear idea of how.

20 is old enough to know better than that.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by bobsgame on Saturday August 12, 2017 @09:51PM (#15001072)
Thanks for this.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by ryanwaggoner on Saturday August 12, 2017 @09:55PM (#15001084)
I keep seeing HN users who clearly have an irrational hatred of Zuckerburg trot out this stupid quote as if it proves anything, let alone that he's some kind of megalomaniac. Just really annoys me. It always reeks of jealousy and sour grapes to me :)
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by markyuckerberg on Sunday August 13, 2017 @01:32AM (#15001676)
This is like saying people who are defending FB have some agenda where they don't like seeing criticism against it. For example, you could be someone who coaches freelancers who might hang out on HN and also be coaching them on using FB ads. Remember that when you point out that others may have agendas, there is always the issue that you could be subject to the very same suspicion.

In any case, the real issue isn't that Zuckerberg thought his users were "dumb fucks" when he was young. The issue is that he keeps acting as if he believes it, till today. Take the example of the WhatsApp acquisition. A lot of people, even here on HN, rooted for the WhatApp mantra of "no ads, ever". Now they have clearly been cheated. Interestingly, the usual response to those who complain about this spectacular bait and switch is - "it isn't FB's fault if WhatsApp users were 'too dumb' to trust the words of the company's founder". The lack of ethics amongst these founder types has somehow now become a burden to be borne by the "dumb fucks" who pay for these services with a lack of privacy.

Someone once asked here what is wrong with shadow profiles - that is, why are they actually illegal. The answer was prompt and quite clear - "because those who don't have accounts on FB but have shadow profiles have never explicitly agreed to the ToS". I think if anyone is willing to dig deeper into this issue, it will lead to the same conclusion at a much larger scale - there was nothing "legally wrong" going on, except a large mass of people acting like "dumb fucks" by say, not reading the ToS carefully. Hey, what do you know, supply people with mass quantities of undecipherable garbage called the ToS, and most people are too "dumb" to understand its implications. The assumption of dumbness amongst your users, it turns out, can take you very far - even towards trillion dollar valuations.

Recently, there was this story about the EU fine of 1% of turnover if FB was found guilty of misleading claims. "Those dumb fucks", Zuckerberg probably thought,"the price of providing misleading information is just 1% of the turnover? Who put these dumb fucks in charge?"

I would be very happy to supply more examples if you ask for it.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by spopejoy on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @07:42PM (#15023770)
> I would be very happy to supply more examples if you ask for it.

I'd love an answer to a different question: why do so many tech reporters etc think he's some kind of f'ing genius? Beyond the usual success-worship that is. For instance all of his presidential posturing, I was surprised how little ridicule there was, instead it was "well sure he's a tech genius, but can he really do politics"? I have seen zero evidence of tech brilliance, just ruthless eyeball gathering and ad shilling.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by nithinm on Sunday August 13, 2017 @03:59AM (#15002021)
Thanks, was scrolling for a clear cut argument.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by bachaco on Saturday August 12, 2017 @06:33PM (#15000411)
We have to be careful with the 'evil' thing. The fact that they are not 'evil' now does not mean that in the future they will not. People retire, companies evolve, the information stays.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by rtpg on Sunday August 13, 2017 @04:16AM (#15002063)
I think the argument that they're trying to lick you into their ecosystem is a bit dishonest.

I don't recall FB doing much for lock-in. They basically have only three products, and two of them are just as integrated with things like Twitter as with FB (modulo inline picture expansion of Instagram, which is Twitter's doing)

Google uses your emails to put reminders into your Google Calendar. Uses your Google Calendar to add context to Maps.

The simple reading is just that they had an opportunity to integrate their products. In theory they could offer this integration with other mail providers or calendars.

In practice , do you think MSFT or Yahoo are going to let Google check your emails? Probably not.

Not that Google hasnt done a couple uncompetitive things (Chrome advertising when using FF is a bit much). But the reality is that Google has access to data that can make better usability. And it's kinda hard to do with third party services that are all also building Google-like ecosystems too.

But I have a bunch of third party calendars in Google calendar. I email other people with my Gmail account. I can install Firefox on my Android phone. I can Google search through DDG.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by jsz0 on Saturday August 12, 2017 @10:24PM (#15001154)
> The services that they provide are so above and beyond anything from any other provider that to not use them puts you at a great disadvantage.

Five years ago I would have agreed but at this point most of the advantages offered by Google's services are non-essential conveniences. Google's competition has caught up faster than they have added new 'must have' features.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by kuschku on Saturday August 12, 2017 @06:54PM (#15000483)
Here Maps is a serious competitor to Google maps, in many regiona being far superior.

For Google calendar, almost any self hosted calendar service can easily compete with that.

Email is also easy to run yourself, as is Google Photos.

"Easy" meaning a task a CompSci student can accomplish during a summer or two of coding.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by giosch on Saturday August 12, 2017 @09:01PM (#15000934)
You don't want to run your own mail/web server. At least, you do not want a lot of people doing it. Because most of the will get the security part wrong. Horribly wrong.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by kuschku on Sunday August 13, 2017 @03:15AM (#15001892)
Well, some ISPs have in their contracts a free custom mail and webserver for every customer (for example, mine does).

This obviously diversifies the options quite a bit.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by jooke on Sunday August 13, 2017 @03:55PM (#15004597)
Having my email or webserver tied to my ISP seems terrible. What happens if I want to switch?
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by kuschku on Sunday August 13, 2017 @04:26PM (#15004755)
That's the way it always used to be - for example, many americans still pay a small fee to AOL.

But you can just move it to any other hoster.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by jsz0 on Saturday August 12, 2017 @10:57PM (#15001246)
Apple Maps has also become a serious competitor. Apple is still playing catch-up in some ways but every year they keep closing the gap further. Almost every 'catch up' feature they have added is as good or better than Google's implementation. In the same time period Google Maps hasn't improved much and has taken some steps backwards in UI.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by ionised on Monday August 14, 2017 @06:23AM (#15007646)
> The conclusion I've come to regarding Google is that you just have to accept it for now. The services that they provide are so above and beyond anything from any other provider that to not use them puts you at a great disadvantage.

Dear lord this isn't even remotely true.

I haven't used any Google services save Maps for nearly 5 years now and I only used Maps a few times when I first learned to drive before realising that OSMand and HERE Maps were actually better.

That's just one example. There are alternatives to pretty much everything Google offers, some even better.

The only thing Google offers that isn't matched is seamless integration between its various services, but if you are not heavily invested in the Google ecosystem to begin with, or are not resistant to change then its not an issue at all to move away from it.

Honestly the most dofficult part of stopping using Google is switching all your email addresses over for the various online services you use. That takes a few hours at most.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by tempodox on Saturday August 12, 2017 @01:14PM (#14998797)
Google uses the information they collect on you to target their ads (and who knows what else), just as Facebook does. They happen to have a bit more window dressing that is of actual utility. All that makes them is a bit smarter but not fundamentally better than FB.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by Zarath on Saturday August 12, 2017 @05:14PM (#15000002)
s/bit/lot
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by leereeves on Saturday August 12, 2017 @04:51PM (#14999894)
> There is no serious alternative to Google maps.

On an extended road trip last month I used both Google maps and Apple maps and found them roughly equivalent.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by gaius on Sunday August 13, 2017 @08:47AM (#15002690)
Here (formerly Nokia) is very good. Bing maps is perfectly adequate.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by earenndil on Monday August 14, 2017 @05:09AM (#15007401)
Also look at openstreetmaps.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by rmc on Monday August 14, 2017 @07:41AM (#15007962)
> There is no serious alternative to Google maps.

Depends a lot on the region, but in many places, OpenStreetMap is better than Google Maps.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by codyb on Saturday August 12, 2017 @12:43PM (#14998628)
It's pretty incredible. Search history and e-mail alone almost certainly reveal staggering amounts of personal information about most people.

I try to "spread" my data. Apple for maps/messaging/photos, Signal, DuckDuckGo, Gmail, and primarily private tab web surfing. I also use different browsers for different concerns. And of course ad blockers although I'm not sure I've installed them everywhere. With my lack of social media accounts and a reup of my PIA subscription it feels like it should be a fairly private set up.

Of course, if I was really going all the way I'd use cash for everything, and curb the very modest amount of shopping I do on Amazon. I believe creeit cards almost certainly sell information based on your purchase history.

Oh! And don't forget a hat and sunglasses to avoid the myriad of cameras I'd come across in my day to day as a metropolitan.

And of course to turn off wi-fi and bluetooth when in transit. Might even be better to go into airplane mode.

So yea, just get a landline. Use snail mail (although addresses may be scanned). Hang a calendar on the wall (they are pretty, mine is pictures of Italy), stay off social media, use cash, disguise your features, and I dunno, use the internet at the library or something.

In the end, it's a giant pain and it's amazing how many vectors there are for information retrieval on the average citizen of the information age.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by gtdawg on Saturday August 12, 2017 @01:46PM (#14998939)
Regarding cash vs credit card. Google already has your credit card data too.

> Google says it has access to roughly 70% of U.S. credit and debit card transactions through partnerships with companies that track that data. By matching ad clicks with this data, Google says it can automatically inform merchants when their digital ads translate into sales at a physical store.

http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-google-a...

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by TheSpiceIsLife on Saturday August 12, 2017 @01:54PM (#14998985)
> Oh! And don't forget a hat and sunglasses to avoid the myriad of cameras I'd come across in my day to day as a metropolitan.

Gait analysis can be used to identify individual people.[1]

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gait_analysis#Biometric_identi...

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by papa_bear on Saturday August 12, 2017 @07:48PM (#15000707)
Walk without rhythm and we won't attract the worm
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by TheSpiceIsLife on Sunday August 13, 2017 @04:52AM (#15002140)
Oi mate, just wanna say: What a blood brilliant app you cats have built.

As a nutritionist myself, with poor blood glucose control if I'm not careful and emotionally affective wheat intolerance, your app, at first glance, looks amazing and very comprehensive. Well done!

If any of ya'll ever find yourself in Tasmania be sure to look me up, email on profile.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by papa_bear on Sunday August 13, 2017 @01:50PM (#15003978)
Haha I just noticed your username could be a reference too.

And thanks, that's awesome to hear! A lot of parts of the app are definitely a work in progress, and its tough to make appealing looking meal plans that also consistently hit arbitrary nutrition goals. But we're steadily making progress. Never been to Tasmania, but I'll be sure to let you know :)

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by TheSpiceIsLife on Saturday August 12, 2017 @08:30PM (#15000852)
Haha! Yes, good one :)

Installed your app, will have a look. I studied nutrition for a bit so could be interesting.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by Deimorz on Saturday August 12, 2017 @01:02PM (#14998741)
It gets even more frightening if you realize that you're probably not even considering all of the "deeper" levels. Almost everything I listed in my comment was pretty surface-level stuff, where it's at least somewhat obvious that you're giving the data to them (some things like the analytics not so much, but still not really "hidden").

But now start thinking about some other things:

- Are any of the sites you're using hosted on GCP (or other Google-owned hosting)?

- Even if they're not, do they include any scripts/images/fonts/etc. from other sites that are?

- How much network infrastructure does Google own now? How much of your traffic is passing through it?

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by jfktrey on Saturday August 12, 2017 @02:27PM (#14999176)
It almost seems impossible to use the internet for even a day without having some usage information leaked to Google.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by utbabya on Saturday August 12, 2017 @05:07PM (#14999968)
Even if you don't install any GApps, Android would still ping Google servers. I can't remember exactly since it was a while ago, but IIRC it was some hardcoded NTP server.

Not much but still a heartbeat per GeoIP.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by greedy_buffer on Saturday August 12, 2017 @10:57PM (#15001248)
Not to mention the captive portal redirect URL
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by greedy_buffer on Saturday August 12, 2017 @10:56PM (#15001243)
For Google to collect data on their platform customers' layer 7 traffic would be a pretty big breach of trust (i .e. hacking if they were using HTTPS) If they are just collecting TCP data and selling it to third party marketers or building analytics profiles it would be a lot of work to reliably connect that to humans for little benefit, along with risk to their reputation.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by Kagerjay on Saturday August 12, 2017 @01:30PM (#14998873)
I use 5% cashback card from my amazon card (chase bank) and one of its disclaimers when you sign up is that it sells your product purchases to advertisers
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by MrMid on Saturday August 12, 2017 @02:22PM (#14999153)
At least they tell you so.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by gaius on Sunday August 13, 2017 @08:49AM (#15002697)
t's pretty incredible. Search history and e-mail alone almost certainly reveal staggering amounts of personal information about most people

And if you are foolish enough to use 8.8.8.8 for your DNS, they get every site you visit, every network activity requiring a lookup in fact, even where you SSH to.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by kwhitefoot on Saturday August 12, 2017 @02:42PM (#14999263)
> use cash

Don't forget that notes have serial numbers so there is potential for tracking there too even though it would be slower and less precise.

Better use coins (real ones not block chain ones).

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by RobertoG on Saturday August 12, 2017 @12:50PM (#14998664)
Lately, I'm getting even more paranoid with Google.

I have the location in my Android inactive and everytime I open google maps I get the message:

"To continue, let your device turn on location, which uses Google's location service. cancel - ok"

I have to click cancel every time. I think the language is disingenuous, because if you click cancel you can use the maps anyway. I suppose I should stop using Google Maps.

I use duckduckgo in my android, and the other day I realized that the keyboard where I'm typing is "Gboard - The Google Keyboard".

I suppose it's not calling home with every key, but who knows?, or, if it's not calling, if this will change in the future.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by zipwitch on Saturday August 12, 2017 @01:31PM (#14998883)
You may want to check out OpenStreetMap.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by pacala on Saturday August 12, 2017 @04:44PM (#14999865)
http://maps.me

For mobile, totally offline, uses OpenStreetMap data.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by Nition on Saturday August 12, 2017 @07:56PM (#15000741)
Nokia HERE WeGo[1] also does offline GPS maps. You can download whole countries as vector map data.

MAPS.ME looks really good but I know some areas around here don't have great OpenStreetMap data yet, whereas they do have complete road data on Nokia's app.

[1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.here.app.m...

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by pacala on Saturday August 12, 2017 @11:07PM (#15001283)
Cool! FWIW, around Pacific North West, I found OpenStreetMap data is significantly more detailed than Google's for hiking and pedestrian points of interest.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by newscracker on Saturday August 12, 2017 @12:38PM (#14998594)
You have listed all the reasons that make Android very valuable for Google. At the same time, do you believe Google can be as evil as Facebook? I personally believe it isn't and won't be (so it's just the lesser evil).

I wouldn't trust Facebook to not be evil, based on its poor track record on privacy and treating users badly as well as its highly ambitious and callous founder/CEO. I'm also sure that Facebook has been working on dismantling the Google ecosystem or bypassing it wherever possible to control and retain user attention.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by lobotryas on Saturday August 12, 2017 @12:48PM (#14998656)
> Google can be as evil as Facebook

Personally I believe Google _IS_ much worse than FB for one simple reason: it's much easier to avoid FB than Google.

With FB the story is simple. You'll miss out on some news/invites from FB-centric friends, but it's pretty easy to go without (or to even find new friends who aren't as hooked on FB as needed).

"Avoiding" Google in your daily life is much, much harder. Their free mail offering is still top-notch. Their search is absolutely incredible. Depending on what you do this list can go on and on. Also, these are things we can't really just "do without" like in FB's case. Alternatives do exist, but often are either paid or not as good.

Personally, I'n going to try and transition away from Google this year just to see how far I can get. Should be an interesting experiment.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by fao_ on Saturday August 12, 2017 @01:37PM (#14998906)
Some personal recommendations from a random Hacker News:

For mail I recommend: inventati.org (And if you use them please donate to them!)

For search I recommend: duckduckgo.com (Spend some time using the bang syntax-- such as !w for wikipedia pages --it makes life about 10x easier!

For maps I recommend: openstreetmaps.org

There are more on https://www.privacytools.io/

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by TheSpiceIsLife on Saturday August 12, 2017 @02:06PM (#14999053)
If I can affect just one person here today...

Please please please stop using Gmail for important communication and account recovery (banking, mission critical services you maintain, etc etc).

Use a paid service from a reputable company who does that one thing only and does it well.

Too many Gmail horror stories.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by nytesky on Saturday August 12, 2017 @05:28PM (#15000077)
Can you recommend a paid email service that is reputable?
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by dbrgn on Saturday August 12, 2017 @06:07PM (#15000285)
I can recommend Fastmail. No affiliation, just a happy customer. I've used Gmail for several years previously and thought I'd miss it when switching. I didn't.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by TheSpiceIsLife on Sunday August 13, 2017 @04:58AM (#15002162)
I also use Fastmail. No affiliations, just a content customer.

I pay for a mobile telephone service, but email is more important to me so my convictions necessitate a paid email service from a dedicated provider with a real support team.

I also own my own domain, primarily because now my email address is short and unambiguous to say over the phone.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by newscracker on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @01:22AM (#15025131)
Late reply, but I would recommend Posteo [1] because it's flexible and very cheap if you need multiple accounts. I switched to it a year ago to move out of Gmail and other "free" services.

Fastmail is, for my needs of a few mailboxes (each with its own credentials), very expensive - running into few hundred dollars a year!

Another similar and cheap alternative is Mailbox, which allows custom domains to be used.

Both the services allow IMAP, which was very important for me to have local copies of emails if I ever decide to migrate out.

[1]: https://posteo.de

[2]: https://mailbox.org

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by hutzlibu on Saturday August 12, 2017 @03:31PM (#14999544)
"Too many Gmail horror stories."

share one pls?

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by kuschku on Saturday August 12, 2017 @07:04PM (#15000521)
Someone hijacked an older google account of mine, the phone number used had since run out and been sold to another user.

Google asked me to either have access to the phone number, and the old password, or to know the security question, have access to the backup email, and know the exact day the account was created on.

Google was not willing to provide any help, not even via the Nexus phone support, and even after a friend who worked at Google submitted an internal recovery form.

After I contacted the new owner of the phone number, and coordinated with him a way for me to authorize via SMS, backup email, old password, security question, and account creation date at the same time, I got back into the account.

In the account I found an email from Google's account recovery support thanking me for contacting them, apparently they had contacted the hijacker after I asked for help, not me.

After changing all data, I went through the login history.

The account was set to German, always used from Germany. Someone tried logging in via several different VPNs, and was blocked a few times, but allowed the last time from Russia.

I had learnt the account was compromised originally because Google sent me an email that an attacker from Russia had logged into the account and changed the password.

So, to recap:

Google realizes that an attacker connects and hijacks an account, emails me, but doesn't prevent it.

Google allows that person to change the password, and tells me that an attacker changed the password, but provides no way to restore it, and doesn't block it.

You can't restore with backup email, security question and old password.

Once Google's internal account recovery team was contacted, they talked with the attacker, not with me, despite being explicitly told I had no control over the account.

A random person was more helpful with restoring the account than Google itself.

Do NOT ever rely on Google, and write down your accountcreation date right now (on desktop, in gmail, settings, pop3 and imap, "pop3 active since" tells you the account creation date)

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by xiaoma on Sunday August 13, 2017 @04:04AM (#15002034)
Asking for a phone number as a verification method is particularly toxic for users such as myself who do a lot of international travel and essentially just use phones for data plans.

Due to a close call with one of my own accounts, I absolutely refuse to link a phone number to any online account, for fear of it being required months later when I'm in another country. I still nearly gotten bitten by this problem when Google wanted to use my old android phone itself as a secondary identification method. AFICT, the only safe solution is to also avoid using Android phones (or have no Google accounts you'd care about losing).

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by kuschku on Sunday August 13, 2017 @12:44PM (#15003612)
Or if you use prepaid SIMs which get deactivated after not upping their charge for 6 months, even if there's still money left on them.

Using phone numbers - which are, btw, free with prepaid SIMs - as identifier is dumb in general.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by hutzlibu on Saturday August 12, 2017 @07:21PM (#15000602)
hm, definitely incompetence from the google team, but also a bit your fault, since you did not update your number.

Why did the backup email not worked? Or did they told you about the hijacking via the backup but said the only way to restore is via the number?

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by kuschku on Saturday August 12, 2017 @08:18PM (#15000815)
Oh, the backup email worked. But to restore it's not enough. You need either

a) old password, SMS

b) security question, email , date of account creation.

And I didn't update the phone number because I had stopped using the account, and had forgotten about it (but I also obviously didn't want anyone to spam in my name, or extract my data).

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by greenyoda on Saturday August 12, 2017 @07:40PM (#15000679)
Many stories have been posted here over the years of people whose Google accounts got disabled for some unknown reason, with no way of contacting someone at Google to get the issue resolved. A quick web search turned up this example:

https://ehsanakhgari.org/blog/2012-04-13/how-i-lost-access-m...

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by xj9 on Saturday August 12, 2017 @04:51PM (#14999892)
it really isn't that hard to get away from GOOG

I run copperhead on a nexus device (no gapps) use fastmail for email contacts and calendars duckduckgo for search plex and icecast for media matrix for chat mastodon for social media fix standard notes for note taking

YouTube is a challenge, but you can always use youtube-dl and watch via plex asynchronously

the only missing but for me is replacing photos. Plex does and ok job, but it isn't quite as seamless as I would like.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by severine on Saturday August 12, 2017 @08:35PM (#15000868)
> YouTube is a challenge, but you can always use youtube-dl and watch via plex asynchronously

Check the Video Assistant extension to play embedded videos in external player:

https://addons.mozilla.org/en/firefox/addon/video-assistant/

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by thrwyqwerty on Sunday August 13, 2017 @07:40AM (#15002520)
Newpipe is a great Youtube alternative for Android. You can download it from the Fdroid repo.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by Deimorz on Saturday August 12, 2017 @01:07PM (#14998766)
Sure, Google's probably (hopefully) not doing anything "evil" with all this data right now, but are you absolutely certain that they never will in the future? That they'll never be forced to give access to the data to others? That they'll never get hacked?

Because you don't get the option to take your data back, ever. So you can't only consider the present state.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by amiga-workbench on Saturday August 12, 2017 @05:15PM (#15000007)
I was a bit creeped out the other day when I was off work sick, and Google play music offered up a "working from home" radio station.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by chiefalchemist on Saturday August 12, 2017 @12:26PM (#14998519)
Ironic isn't it. Google is a threat, but the media focuses on a random memo. Not dismissing the memo, but it pales in comparison to Google's larger scope.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by TeMPOraL on Saturday August 12, 2017 @03:10PM (#14999437)
Unfortunately, the outrage of people about some issue is usually inversely proportional to its importance. This seems to be a general fact about humans.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by chiefalchemist on Sunday August 13, 2017 @09:58AM (#15002915)
The "outrage" is a function of the MSM's ability to make money off the issue. I'm not sure about God, but journalism is certainly dead.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by binthere on Saturday August 12, 2017 @01:21PM (#14998827)
In the end it's your/our choice to choose Google for every single decision you've described. It's not like we can't do it without Google, we used to do fine doing the same things before Google. I think it's unsettling how many people choose to do almost everything using Google, Facebook, Amazon.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by Deimorz on Saturday August 12, 2017 @01:47PM (#14998942)
That's not really true at all. Almost everyone uses Google-controlled email addresses, so even if I don't, Google still gets our entire conversations. There's no option to avoid that except just refusing to email almost everyone.

You also don't really "choose" to give your data through Google Analytics. You can block it, but that's a lot different than choosing to give it in the first place. Even if you do block it, that's still only client-side and it's possible that the site is sending data through other methods that you can't control.

And like I mentioned in another comment already, what about sites that are hosted on GCP, sites that make requests to other sites that are hosted on GCP, Google network infrastructure, etc.?

You get a choice about some of it, but certainly nowhere near all of it.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by j_s on Saturday August 12, 2017 @07:33PM (#15000655)
Here is the webcomic with Facebook pushing aside "big brother" as an amateur, then revealing a giant Google looming ominously behind them both.

http://joyreactor.com/post/331191

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by dredmorbius on Sunday August 13, 2017 @04:07AM (#15002043)
If I could point to the flaw in both your and the article's arguments, it's trying to paint either as worse than the other.

Both are exceedingly bad. Both have proven exceedingly harmful (and, yes, useful, which is actually a reason why they're so perniciously harmful).

I never fell into Facebook's maw, though that's cost some inconvenience.

I've somewhat extracted myself from Google's, though still only partially:

DuckDuckGo for search. It's quite good, and I prefer bang search and actual, direct links rather than Google redirects. Though I still miss ranged date search.

OpenStreetMap for maps.

ProtonMail for email. It's not everything it could be, the client has some annoying limitations, and neither IMAPS nor POPS are supported. But at least it's not Gmail. There are other options as well.

My router blocks Google analytics, and a large set of other adtech hosts.

Despite being known as a critic of it, I use G+ heavily. With appropriate pruning and blocking, it's useful.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by wutbrodo on Sunday August 13, 2017 @03:17PM (#15004417)
Yea, I have a lot less faith in the explicitly-unethical Facebook and its leadership than in Google, and that's been the case pretty much since Facebook came on the scene.

But how principled the founders are is only one part of the picture, and Google just has the potential to be a lot scarier. People change, companies outlive tight control by individual people, and explicitly-evil actors with armies force companies to do things or compromise their systems (this already happened to some degree a few years ago).

I don't really understand why HN goes on and on about how social media is inevitable and you're just a victim of its use. It's pretty easy to drop Facebook and pay a pretty trivial cost. Avoiding Google products, on the other hand, requires a sustained attempt in a dozen different product areas to use usually-inferior products. It's not impossible, but you pay a fairly hefty cost, to the point that most people don't bother. As you mention, they also have a lot finer grained data about what you actually do, as opposed to Facebook mostly knowing what you care to share.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by PeanutCurry on Sunday August 13, 2017 @07:38AM (#15002513)
I mean this without any intention to be rhetorical, but, how common is sending emails to plan an event? For anyone I meet in real life I either talk to them in real life, message them on discord, or call them on the phone. I've got nothing against email, I use it for a lot of things, but it's just too sluggish for event planning in my experience. Occasionally I might use facebook but that's for big consistent events like hosting a yearly get together because I live closest to a fairly big convention that happens in my city.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by thelittleone on Sunday August 13, 2017 @02:40AM (#15001810)
I suspect many Internet users are unaware that Google also owns reCAPTCHA.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by codeisawesome on Sunday August 13, 2017 @04:49AM (#15002134)
If there's a series of news articles on Shaq, even more data than just GA can now be collected thanks to no-opt-out AMP
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by tarr11 on Saturday August 12, 2017 @12:38PM (#14998599)
This would make a good Black Mirror episode.
Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by imaginenore on Saturday August 12, 2017 @06:22PM (#15000356)
What exactly is scary in that scenario? So Google knows that you went somewhere and who your friends are. I don't see a problem.

The actually bad thing would be something like - you watch alt-right YouTube videos, and Google doesn't hire you because of that if you apply for a job. But even that isn't remotely close to the totalitarian government level of oppression, where you get executed for disagreeing with the party line.

Chances are, you are not important, and nobody cares where you go to eat and whoats with you.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by ionised on Monday August 14, 2017 @06:33AM (#15007691)
Nobody is important until they suddenly are.

The Nazis used highly in-depth Dutch census data during WW2 to hunt down and murder Jews and undsesirables in the country.

That data was considered harmless, even useful by the population to that point. Things changed, and that data became very useful to evil people.

This is why people in Germany and many eastern European countries are not sold on government surveillance for their own good, they lived under pervasive Soviet surveillance.

That kind of power can and likely will end up in the wrong hands eventually, so it is always best to keep it in check or just not have it at all.

Re:Big brother is here, and his name is Facebook by jodrellblank on Sunday August 13, 2017 @05:36PM (#15005097)
What's scary is that they aren't aligned with your interests.

The actually bad thing is everybody acts like a) they are, and b) they can't and won't ever change.

Chances are, you are not important, and nobody is looking out to make sure they don't crush you.

In this scenario, you are the bug on the interstate which hits a car windshield. "Oh but the humans aren't out to get you, look at this big open space they made for us, what's so bad if the car knows where you are?".