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Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by AndrewKemendo on Friday August 11, 2017 @07:51AM (#14988674)
Based on your post I went and looked up that question/answer portion, and I think the back and forth is illuminating in it's lack of either communication or actual capability:

TL;DR: It's a solution in search of a problem, like so much good, early technology.

Dalton Caldwell [31:07] – What is the burning, and it’s okay if it’s not consumers, but what is the thing that, with Filecoin, that is gonna make, whether it’s business or consumers, people get really excited about using it?

Juan Benet [31:19] – Filecoin is not representative of the entire industry. Filecoin is one example. With Filecoin, the point is being able to, this is a whole different argument that I think makes sense with or without a peer-to-peer winter or summer. The thoughts around Filecoin are about thinking about the massive latent storage that’s out there and putting it to good use. There’s exabytes of storage that are not in use right now, and that if you were to add them to the market, you would drive the price down significantly......That’s, I think, fundamentally different about this type of thing than normal consumer products. They solve a lotta problems for a lotta people.

Dalton Caldwell [33:41] – You said financial, though. Again, they’re doing it for financial reasons. Again, what I’m looking for is what is the incentive for someone to get involved, whether it’s a business or a consumer, the reason you would put a miner on the network?

Juan Benet [33:53] – For Filecoin specifically, the reason why somebody would add storage to the network, the primary motivator will be money....

Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by sharemywin on Friday August 11, 2017 @08:22AM (#14988889)
Is it me or is the elephant in the room like "get paid to put pirated movies, games, music, software on the network"

Obviously, no one is going to admit it because then your network is tainted but every file sharing outfit ultimately ends up do pirated.

I've been mining lbry and it seems lot more ahead of these others. https://lbry.io/

Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by hosh on Friday August 11, 2017 @02:49PM (#14992977)
We're building the basic building blocks of autonomous software. If Ethereum is universal compute, Filecoin will provide the storage backing for it.

The beneficiary will be AIs, not humans.

Right now, we're just now thinking of clouds, containers, and "serverless" (functions-as-a-service). If we take those ideas and iterate them forward, we converge closer to a real "serverless" paradigm -- what Ethereum already provides today in principle, if not at scale. This will require storage that can keep up with it, and that is where FileCoin comes in. While human consumers may benefit from this, it enables autonomous software that can live on its own and manage its own matabolism (resources accounted for through the blockchain). What those autonomous software will do? I don't really know.

Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by aw3c2 on Friday August 11, 2017 @11:34AM (#14990691)
The https://lbry.io/faq/what-is-lbry is just as empty buzzword bingo as the Filecoin docs.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by onli on Friday August 11, 2017 @08:26AM (#14988910)
You can't create a business out of pirated content (anymore). You can maybe create such a network, but not gain money or stay out of prison.

Filecoin to my knowledge has or will have no capabilities of sharing files. It's dumb end-to-end encrypted decentral storage (which is a good thing!).

Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by rmorey on Friday August 11, 2017 @10:45AM (#14990132)
Filecoin is being built on top of IPFS (ipfs.io) which, in principle, could be used as a really robust network for sharing pirated content.

However, the IPFS team is aware of this problem, and is building in measures to allow nodes to opt out of storing globally available blacklists of known bad objects (i.e. pirated content or illegal content)

In practice, this is definitely a really hard problem to solve, and very important. But I think doable.

Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by smokeyj on Friday August 11, 2017 @06:43PM (#14994978)
Your plan is to create a centralized list of things "good and moral people" should avoid, that only good and moral people will opt-into? That's a funny strategy for several reasons.. First - do you really want "bad guys" to have a list of all the content they shouldn't have? Might as well call it do-not-read.txt. Secondly, if the system is opt-in for "good and moral people", will that really do anything to stop the distribution of content on do-not-read.txt among "bad and immoral" group?

I'm personally glad that the fathers of the internet had better things to do than moralizing legality.

Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by hobofan on Friday August 11, 2017 @07:22PM (#14995206)
Its not about "good and moral" vs "bad and immoral", but "legal" vs "illegal". Blacklists are not currently implemented in IPFS but one imagined a solution, where people opt-in to their e.g. state-supplied blacklist to prevent run-ins with the government, which could say "if you aid criminals by providing them with illegal content, we will hold you accountable for it". In the end, it is probably nothing more than a facade to appease governments that in the end will come up with something similar ineffective.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by kofejnik on Saturday August 12, 2017 @06:04AM (#14997280)
you mean, illegal in Russia? Or Uganda?
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by hobofan on Saturday August 12, 2017 @06:10AM (#14997292)
Depends on which risks/rewards you want to take on, just like today. If you live in China, you might want to adhere to the Chinese blacklist, but outside of it, you probably don't care, since the Chinese government also doesn't seem to care _that_ much.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by smokeyj on Saturday August 12, 2017 @09:52AM (#14997883)
> since the Chinese government also doesn't seem to care _that_ much

Sounds like the opposite of something most would consider "important".

Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by prepend on Friday August 11, 2017 @02:59PM (#14993085)
Since the content is encrypted, how would you blacklist any content? The nodes don't know what kind of material they are hosting.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by hobofan on Friday August 11, 2017 @03:22PM (#14993281)
You don't blacklist based on content, but on the hashes of the content, which the nodes have to know. At one point or another, the decryption key has to be shared for the encrypted content to be usable for anyone, and if the copyright holders get a hold of that key, they can prove a violation and blacklist the hash of the content.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by 1024core on Friday August 11, 2017 @06:33PM (#14994911)
You do realize though that changing just 1 bit can change the entire hash? What's to prevent people from appending a random bit or two, and getting an entirely new, unblocked, hash?
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by hobofan on Friday August 11, 2017 @07:13PM (#14995156)
I was just explaining the general concept. I don't claim to have in depth knowledge on the subject.

I think blocking a hash can already be a victory, since it basically makes all the metadata that was associated with the hash useless and forces reseeding under a new hash and publicizing that hash. As long as you make it inconvenient enough, very few people will bother, which is the best the copyright holders can hope for.

Reseeding might be pretty easy though in IPFS since there is a block layer below the object layer, and I guess you can't really block block-hashes.

Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by slededit on Friday August 11, 2017 @07:12PM (#14995154)
Responding to specific take down requests is enough to activate the safe harbor provisions in the DMCA. Legally they don't have to do anything else.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by Keeeeeeeks on Friday August 11, 2017 @08:46PM (#14995643)
Great point; this happens a lot with YouTube videos, and would definitely get worse with other sorts of media
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by opportune on Friday August 11, 2017 @12:14PM (#14991311)
If you're hosting something such as a movie, and it's blacklisted, couldn't you just add a small amount of noise to the video file to make it unblacklistable?
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by scottLobster on Friday August 11, 2017 @02:19PM (#14992730)
For now, but this sounds like a problem machine learning was built to solve. Youtube has issues because with the sheer volume of video they don't have the silicon to transcode/examine every frame, but on a more limited network with less traffic such analysis might be doable. The more "variations" people introduce in response, the larger the training set for the algorithm.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by uncoder0 on Friday August 11, 2017 @03:24PM (#14993299)
What if I just encrypt the video before I put it on the network and use a side-channel to distribute the key? ML gonna have a tough time with that.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by opportune on Friday August 11, 2017 @02:46PM (#14992955)
Yes, this is an adversarial machine learning problem. I highly doubt those kind of measures would be implemented by file coin though, considering the cost of scanning files for such at scale. I'm sure, at least in the short term, it will likely be some time of hash or edit distance measure (or an equally naive and easy to fool approach).
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by knicholes on Friday August 11, 2017 @12:58PM (#14991898)
I guess that depends on how things are being blacklisted.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by azinman2 on Friday August 11, 2017 @01:51PM (#14992486)
Exactly. YouTube has the same problem and does all kinds of things to detect this. They have the benefit of already having the media on all their own storage which they can run a map-reduce on, however.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by sharemywin on Friday August 11, 2017 @08:48AM (#14989091)
so you have file storage and a currency. you need a dao to manage the index/search.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by tylersmith on Friday August 11, 2017 @06:26PM (#14994864)
For OpenBazaar, built on IPFS, we've gone the route of federated search with an open API. A DAO could be interesting but a lot more work for little gain.

Eventually I'd like to open source code that lets any user create their own index/search server and potentially charge for usage if they want.

Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by onli on Friday August 11, 2017 @08:57AM (#14989171)
dao=data access object?

You can't implement indexing and search over end to end encrypted data file chunks. You would have to work with the hash of complete files and a localizer, and you want that in the initial design.

Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by sharemywin on Friday August 11, 2017 @10:57AM (#14990273)
Distributed org creates account rents massive file store builds index and use contracts to enforce rental fees.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by mpfundstein on Saturday August 12, 2017 @10:18AM (#14997962)
Thats auper nice
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by acjohnson55 on Friday August 11, 2017 @08:12PM (#14995501)
So basically, Pied Piper plus a coin?
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by mpfundstein on Saturday August 12, 2017 @10:18AM (#14997963)
And without compression. And precisely what sia and storj do
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by wmf on Friday August 11, 2017 @03:00PM (#14993094)
AFAIK the uploader has to pay in this type of system; it's basically just S3 but cheaper and "decentralized". You can upload pirated content to a public S3 bucket if you want and I don't think AWS really cares because they're getting paid and they are covered by the DMCA safe harbor.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by int_19h on Friday August 11, 2017 @11:13PM (#14996243)
If the society is collectively willing to pay for storage mostly to host pirated content, that tells you a lot about what the real (rather than publicly expressed) social consensus is wrt piracy.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by mpfundstein on Saturday August 12, 2017 @10:19AM (#14997966)
Last time i checked my local usenet, it was alive and thriving
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by wcummings on Friday August 11, 2017 @08:34AM (#14988971)
It's not, the real business model here probably looks a lot like rapidshare.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by tylersmith on Friday August 11, 2017 @06:28PM (#14994872)
It's more about enabling applications with decentralized data storage than it is a new type of object storage.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by loceng on Friday August 11, 2017 @11:40AM (#14990754)
There's so much unused storage because it's so cheap and people have the money to buy it and not use it. If you add another profit layer of people looking to make money, that simply increases costs.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by mbesto on Friday August 11, 2017 @11:18AM (#14990520)
> It's a solution in search of a problem, like so much good, early technology.

Care to elaborate and share examples of other "good, earl technology"? Typically when I hear "solution in search of a problem", I start thinking "this is going nowhere".

Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by pfarrell on Friday August 11, 2017 @11:32AM (#14990677)
Google Wave comes to mind. Great tech, but marketed to the wrong group (developers) and didn't solve any problems I had at the time.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by AndrewKemendo on Friday August 11, 2017 @12:10PM (#14991236)
Pretty much any technology you use now was a solution in need of a problem. PDAs and Touchscreen tablets are the most fitting examples.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by mbesto on Friday August 11, 2017 @01:10PM (#14992047)
Sorry, maybe I didn't get your original point - I thought you were insinuating that ICO was a technology in search a problem and that all super successful (i.e. good) technologies starts this way (which I would disagree).
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by AndrewKemendo on Friday August 11, 2017 @01:28PM (#14992230)
I thought you were insinuating that ICO was a technology in search a problem and that all super successful technologies starts this way.

Not insinuating, that's my claim - nearly every big technology was too early (eg. a solution looking for a problem - whether in form or scale) before it blew up years or decades later. I don't think that's controversial. It's also true that a lot of trash that never makes it are also solutions in search of problems.

Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by mbesto on Friday August 11, 2017 @05:23PM (#14994436)
I think you're confusing their adoption curve with a problem they solve. For example - PDA's certainly solved a problem (having a mobile/digital calendar), they just didn't solve enough problems when they were introduced.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by darkerside on Friday August 11, 2017 @02:34PM (#14992857)
The entire Internet
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by genon on Friday August 11, 2017 @03:26PM (#14993316)
I don't know if this just sounded like a zinger to you when you wrote it, but "the Internet" is a prime example of anything but a solution in search of a problem.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by coderzach on Friday August 11, 2017 @05:13PM (#14994339)
What big problem did the early internet solve? Sending messages between universities? Why not just use a phone?
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by genon on Friday August 11, 2017 @09:46PM (#14995890)
ARPANET/the Internet was developed to facilitate communication, remote access and data sharing between different computer systems. Are you sticking with "Why not just use a phone?".
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by darkerside on Sunday August 13, 2017 @10:56AM (#15003128)
20+ years ago the majority of the world had little to no understanding of the internet. People with technical backgrounds may have had theoretical ideas about how connecting the world online would radically change it. But it was exactly a "solution in search of a problem" in the same vein as decentralized computing through blockchain technology is today. A world where the digital world was as critical as the real one seemed ridiculous on its face back then.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by onli on Friday August 11, 2017 @07:56AM (#14988701)
That's a bit convoluted, but it isn't so bad, is it? Lots of unused storage, bitcoin showed you can use cryptocurrency to create a network of capabilities (there: hashing stuff, here: of storage), additional uses are possible when getting the mechanism right.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by beaconstudios on Friday August 11, 2017 @08:27AM (#14988920)
I don't see how a new blockchain is necessary in order to utilise unused storage space. Protocols like this work just fine without them, especially if having a centralised orchestrator (filecoin themselves) isn't an issue. Which in this case, I can't see why it would be.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by wmf on Friday August 11, 2017 @03:03PM (#14993122)
Centralized orchestration of storage = maybe you can raise $10M.

Decentralized blockchain orchestration of storage = you can raise $200M... in the first hour.

Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by jtmarmon on Friday August 11, 2017 @08:52AM (#14989127)
I think the idea is the blockchain part allows people to be compensated at a price determined by the market for opening up their storage
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by onli on Friday August 11, 2017 @09:00AM (#14989188)
Only that you do not need a blockchain for that. All you need is a market place, and that works perfectly fine without a blockchain. It's a needless complication imho.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by beaconstudios on Friday August 11, 2017 @09:04AM (#14989213)
exactly my point. Market dynamics existed long before blockchains.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by onli on Friday August 11, 2017 @09:20AM (#14989326)
But maybe we both miss a thing here. Maybe this is less about file storage and market place, but more about having an alternative way to mine cryptocurrency, which has its own value as long as speculation is ongoing. Well, maybe that's a bit obvious given the hype around the IPO.

That would mean filecoin is less about the use of decentral file storage, but more about giving people a different way to create something that looks like bitcoin that does not involve buying sold-out gpus, unlike ethereum, and storing files is more comfortable than having a gpu make noise all the time anyway.

Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by beaconstudios on Friday August 11, 2017 @10:21AM (#14989902)
so it's yet another way for people to play pretend-stock-market but using a different model of wasting computational resources? That's about what I expect from cryptocoins at this point.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by onli on Friday August 11, 2017 @10:43AM (#14990107)
Not really wasting in this case. There is at least that.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by beaconstudios on Friday August 11, 2017 @10:49AM (#14990182)
true, at least it's just storage space instead of spinning thousands of servers at 100% all the time and wasting huge amounts of electricity. At least, assuming that people don't start creating miner farms with huge amounts of space like they do with GPUs at the moment. I don't know how filecoin ties to the storage requirements of the customers though so that might be handled by market forces.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by mpfundstein on Saturday August 12, 2017 @10:21AM (#14997972)
Come don't ruin it like that
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by holtalanm on Friday August 11, 2017 @11:08AM (#14990409)
storing files is a lot cheaper (energy-wise) than having a GPU continually crunch hashes, too.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by billylindeman on Friday August 11, 2017 @07:06PM (#14995114)
Is bitcoin a needless complication of cash?
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by igorgue on Friday August 11, 2017 @10:33AM (#14990005)
I mean what would motivate you (or a corporation) to put those hard drives that are there with no use to work while you wait for new clients or something, is like renting disk space, I don't know why it doesn't click on HN.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by beaconstudios on Friday August 11, 2017 @10:44AM (#14990124)
my question isn't whether utilising under-used hard drives is valuable - it's why on earth blockchains are necessary. You could provide all this functionality with client software connecting to a company's orchestration service. It doesn't add any value.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by Karunamon on Friday August 11, 2017 @02:25PM (#14992784)
The lack of "a company" (read: censorship, speech codes, political influence, etc) can be considered to be a value. Decentralization is a Good Thing.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by matthewbauer on Friday August 11, 2017 @03:05PM (#14993142)
Decentralization is good when it solves actual problems. I think the problem most people here have with FileCoin is that it's a little bit too much like "Bitcoin but with file storage instead of CPU cycles" without really explaining what the problem is. Who is willing to pay for decentralized storage? Besides criminals and enthusiasts, I can't find a good use case.
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by Trundle on Friday August 11, 2017 @06:39PM (#14994955)
Why besides?
Re:Filecoin Suspends ICO After Raising $186M in One Hour by AndrewKemendo on Friday August 11, 2017 @08:03AM (#14988744)
I don't think it's good or bad, but it shows that there isn't a slam dunk product-market fit here and they are searching for what the value is.

I think by the way, that's absolutely vital to progress, and I am glad someone has convinced VC/Money to fund something potentially breakthrough (whether I think it is or not).