You have to compare with other systems, cause I don't know of any immigrants who can say "oh coming here was so easy".
That is unless you're sent by a big company who takes care of everything.
* I got my residence permit on 3rd day of arriving to country
* I opened bank account on 4th day
* I've opened my insurance by just going online and not talking to people at all
Dutch system is performing very well on bringing tech talent. There's this "Expat Center" that handles whole stuff. In addition to that our company (Booking.com) makes your move even smoother by assisting your relocation and by providing you temporary stay until you find your dreamy apartment.
Please be welcomed at Booking.com in Amsterdam headquarters!
* software developer: http://grnh.se/0fotp8
* front-end developer: http://grnh.se/xl658q
* product owner (e-commerce): http://grnh.se/6gfqds
* ux designer: http://grnh.se/1qhylg
Contact me via email in my profile if you are interested!
Visa and permit? Easy. Just go to the office, present the documents and everything comes in post two weeks later.
Register with social welfare? great. Just go there and they set you up. You get a card and setup the account online. Everything else take care of by the employer and revenue departments.
Driving license? Take the written test and 300 euros for the lessons. If you pass, you can drive (with a driver with full license). Take the test 6 months later for full license.
Yes, here and there you do meet someone who tries to give you a hard time. but all in all, a very positive experience.
And we haven't even mentioned income tax. As a US citizen you still have tax liability for income you make in France, meaning you still pay the US a decent amount of taxes you make in France. The US is one of the only countries that does this. So you'll need to hire an accountant familiar with this to do your US taxes, and you still have to pay your French taxes.
And forming a business? Better find someone who knows what to do, and be prepared for it took take a long time, like a year. Small businesses aren't too bad, but if you want employees...that's a totally different story.
Solve the above problems I listed and then France will be attractive to foreigners. Maybe there's a business idea: help companies and people navigate French administration. It's worth a ton of headache.
I agree that coming without planning to learn a bit of french might be a burden.
This isn't France's fault. It's the US's.
1) For single income earners, the first ~$100K is exempt or "non-reportable", known as the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion[1].
2) US tax treaties with other countries help to offset. Thus, if a US citizen/resident pays a lot of taxes in another country that would exceed or equal their amount in the US, provided the country has a reciprocal tax treaty, the person should not need to pay additional tax to the IRS[2].
Note that while this applies to US permanent residents too, there are immigration consequences if one lives abroad without the appropriate paperwork/authorization.[]
[*] Disclaimer: I'm neither a lawyer nor an accountant. Please consult at least the latter for your taxes.
[1] https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/figu...
[2] https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/tax-...
This is great, until you want to start a business or something similar. Then you enter the 9 circles of IRS hell.
In practice, double taxation - which your comment seem to imply - is not really an issue. A lot of countries - including France - have mutual agreements with the US that exempt foreign income (up to a certain amount) from being taxed twice.
I was able to open a bank account on day 2, without an ID. Obtaining the ID required a trip to the DMV, which while time-consuming, wasn't an especially complex endeavour.
Only issue I ran into was the government shutdown, and that affected everyone.
Getting a social security number was not particularly hard
Having no credit history was a pain in the ass.
DMV was annoying.
That my wife could not work on my visa was a problem.
The green card process was long and painful. Showing your genitals to a doctor to get a residency card was an unexpected and unpleasant part of the process.
edit: I agree having no credit history was a major PITA.
unless your bank accepted the matrix printer temporary one that doesn't even have a b&w photo.
I can't begin to imagine the burden a non speaking French person would have to go through to migrate to France.
My daughter is fluent in French and she went with me to the prefecture once. She told me that the woman behind the glass was super rude, even though she put on a smile and pretended to be helpful. In fact, the next time I made it through the line there and explained what documents I had and why, the guy went to that woman's counter and chewed her out for being malicious (she had written a partial list of required docs instead of handing me the official complete-ish pre-printed list), and apologized to me for her behavior. Then he rejected my paperwork for a reason that was not documented anywhere.
Catch-22s are everywhere; you can't open a bank account without proof of address, but you can't rent a place without a local bank account. It's the same for just about everything important. We had some French friends who cosigned for our apartment so we could get past that, and we were VERY fortunate to have friends who were willing to do that for us. A few people told me that everyone knows someone who can make fake paperwork; you just can't follow all the rules. C'est impossible!
However, I would say that living in France was a fantastic experience, and I wish I had done it 10 years earlier.
for longer than 30 days there are hundreds of real state places that find much better place for half the airbnb price. absolutely everyone will speak fluent English (differently from airbnb).
only downside is a deposit like any other rent
they only require one or two month deposit, and any document from your previous/home country.
You don't need a visa, working permit, special bank account (for US citizens, since the bank must report income, etc, to the US gov), your driving license is valid, etc.
You change languages, currency, you need new bank accounts, new health insurance, completely different educational system. All administrations are different. The culture is also a shock. You will never find any of the grocery or shop you used to buy.
A French going to the UK is not much different than a Mexican going to the USA.
The only advantage is that you don't risk being deported by the police if they don't like you papers. You are effectively allowed to be there by the virtue of being European.
Opening a French bank account isn't complicated either if it is with a multinational bank, I have never been inside a French branch of mine.
You cannot use a bank accounts well across EU country. Banks are a very localized service, they provide specific account number formats and payment methods by country. It will be a huge hassle day to day when you want a SEPA transfer and the guy expects a RIB or a sort code.
It's worse with UK and Switzerland because they have a different currency. You really need a local bank account or you get bankrupted by the fees and the exchange rate. Incidentally they are the only places where there are the big tech and finance companies to work for.
Most banks are national. There are very few banks that have an international presence, with decent service at the offices.
The last time I went to a French bank in a different region than where I opened the account, they told me they can't do anything and I have to go to my "home" agency.
And all bank transfers within the EU (not sure if the U.K. is a special case) are free of charge, and IBAN/BIC used everywhere. I routinely transfer money between my Austrian and German accounts.
Getting a bank account was tricky though, most banks wanted a proof of address on a utility bill, but I couldn't sign up to sky/etc without a bank account. In the end, HSBC gave me an account with my passport as proof of who I said I was. Other than that, it was as difficult as moving city. Obviously not everyone has it this easy.
That's because both are EU countries (for now at least). Moving to France will also be much easier if you're an EU citizen, you won't have to deal with residence permits and your driver's license will also be valid.
A company can give you a letter to confirm that you work for them, that's also usable as a proof of address.
None of the banks I spoke to (TSB, Santander, nationwide, RBS) would accept a letter from my employer
I won't go in to details (unless someone asks) but one thing that I want to share is a great option for expats needing a French bank account quickly. It's called Compte Nickel: a fairly new (at the time) startup that is essentially a small bank-like system which requires only a French mailing address, a passport, €20, and a visit to a participating newsagent.
That gets you a bank account with the required RIB so you can get your salary paid, use ATMs, make online payments, and the like. It comes with a Mastercard debit card which the newsagent hands you upon setup in-store. The account has some limits on transactions to prevent laundering but nothing we found a hindrance. It costs €20 a year. If anyone is having issues getting a French bank account just so they can get on their feet, it will be of use to you:
We've since moved back to Germany, which was a huge relief. Being able to just email the local immigration office to give some info or agree on an appointment time... unthinkable in France.
As a same-sex couple who aren't married we also have some challenges most couples won't face. France, like the USA, does not recognise civil unions or anything other than a marriage when it comes to immigration. You're either married or single in their view. While for the USA, I remember we simply could not migrate there as a couple, the French at least acknowledged our situation and said I could have a visitor's visa and then get married once settled there with my visitor visa validated to become a residence permit (duration: 1 year).
The catch with the visitor visa however is that I had to fund my own health insurance (I found some expat insurance with Allianz which the French consulate said was acceptable) and also had to swear in a written statement that I would not seek gainful employment in France. It's hardly ideal.
My partner is a scientist, and because he was offered a research position at Lyon's university, he was given an expedited residence permit process. He went to OFII (immigration office) to confirm his residence permit about 3 weeks upon arrival in the country, and was exempted from all medical checks. His health insurance was provided using the French social security system. That last part took a while, but otherwise for him it was smooth as butter. I don't see why France couldn't apply this system to promising tech talent from abroad.
Now, for me the immigration process on arrival meant waiting 3 months for a letter from OFII for an appointment, which I couldn't make. That meant another 3 month wait, followed by medical checks including an X-ray, a talking-down-to by some immigration officials surprised that I hadn't learnt much of the language, and then a stamp on my visa. Now both residents, we could have applied for marriage at this stage, but we actually left for Germany just 2 weeks later - in France there is a one month cool-down period between marriage application and ceremony, so the timing wasn't possible. In any case, I would rather have a real wedding back home when it's finally legalised, rather than over here in Europe. No-one could really come...
Before I discovered Compte Nickel we had a hell of a time trying to get a bank account. We had an "attestation" from the university's housing board that we had an apartment reserved for us, but the bank first told us it was older than 3 months so no longer valid. Upon getting a new one the bank then said an attestation wasn't good enough anyway and we needed a rental contract to open an account.
We were staying in an AirBnB for our first month in Lyon and while the first two weeks looking around were pleasant enough, trying to organise long term accommodation and a way to get paid was super stressful. The university accommodation ended up being woefully inadequate so we cancelled that before we set foot in the place. Thanks to Compte Nickel and my partner's willingness to just pay a real estate company to find us an apartment, we got things sorted with mere days to spare before the AirBnB time was up, and things would have really gone haywire.
In France we made friends with a Finnish couple, an American couple, and a Finnish/French couple. 2/3 were also academics, and as married couples would have had much smoother immigration processes than ours. Despite this, all three planned to leave shortly after we did. None of us really liked it there. Lyon's suburbs are particularly filthy but even if I was in a smaller, prettier town I can't imagine being able to last very long.
I have worked in France for most of my career so far. My first hand experience is of course limited (I only have 5 years of experience) but I really feel that the FrenchTech is overblown. There are some great startups but they are extremely rare.
We have started hiring non french people in the startup I work for one year ago and the culture clash is tremendous. Things that have bothered me for a while are doubly strange for them :
- Everything takes a LOT of time and nobody prioritizes making the process more efficient. There are many bottlenecks.. after discussing with colleagues in non French companies, they have all found solutions in order to solve them. Here there is no will to do so. So it can take weeks to merge simple changes.
- very large aversion to new technology. Pretty much constantly lagging 1 to 2 years behind the rest of the community.
-LOTS of office politics
I don't expect any of these to become perfect in another country but I am more than ready for a change of air.
If by "technology" you mean web framework, then that sounds like a feature!
In my stack (Android) : started adopting EventBus while Rx was already pretty mature, deep into spaghetti code architecture while it has already been showed that variations around MVP or MVVM would be very beneficial.
I can't go into too much detail here but when there are some very big challenges around this product which faces an enormous memory usage and tons of memory leaks.
I am very practical and don't feel the need to use all the latest toys but here these are cases where the product could have been greatly improved by being a part of the community instead of living in an ivory tower where you are absolutely distrustful of external code to a ridiculous degree.
I know the DMV is the ultimate symbol, to a lot of Americans, of the ultimate administrative clutter. But trust me, if any 'public services' of France could run with just half the throughput and efficiency of the DMV, people would be more than happy with that :P
-> For the ultimate kafkaesque experience, just try get a car registration outside of Paris intra-murros, say, Neuf-Trois. You'll discover an alternative universe and might realize that hey, the DMV is awesome!
Is it a joke? Never heard of that in 30 years..
[0] http://www.lemonde.fr/emploi/article/2017/03/16/la-fin-de-la...
In certain industries, the company pays for you to go and get a thorough physical checkup every two years, on company time.
It's the unions that negotiated this, it's a benefit to the employee.
It may seem mundane when everything's OK, but thanks to this check many people discover they have diabetes, kidney issues, hearing or sight issues (both are tested at regular intervals) and can then take proactive actions to fix that, usually suggested during the last part which is the debrief with a doctor†. Similarly, that chat may look useless to healthy people but sometimes it help uncover psychopathological situations such as nascent burnout or depression.
Seriously, what's there to be so up in arms about it? It's all handled confidentially like every medical checkup, the employer can't see anything of it except a mention saying you're medically able or not able to do your job, it helps prevent drunkards driving school buses, and it may save or at the very least improve your life.
† Caveat: Some doctors do really suck and could care less. Sadly happens, but not all of them are bad.
Also worth noting that I've had to do this in other countries; I'd say it's more problematic elsewhere.
I would however say that yes, the French bureaucracy is something else entirely. But if you are friendly to them and show your face things will happen faster.
And it's only in Paris if you're in Paris, otherwise you'll do it wherever you live.
I don't really see what's shocking, it's just to make sure you're medically apt to do the job your employer is asking you to, and that your employer provides the right environment to work in a way that's safe for you.
For tech jobs it boils down mostly to workspace ergonomics, and a sane work schedule.
"Dependent children under the age of 18 do NOT need a residence permit. However, an underage child travel document (‘document de circulation pour étranger mineur’ – DCEM) must be obtained at your local Préfecture after your arrival in France."
In my prefecture we have been trying to get a DCEM for each child for 1 year. The prefecture is not doing them at all, and they do not know when they will again. And the prefecture says the children cannot re-enter France without them. Our immigration lawyer says "as a practical matter" border control will allow the kids back in if you fly into France (but maybe not another EU country).
The residency for kids is a pretty good deal, but you just may not actually be able to get it (maybe in another year?).
But I actually do really like France. I want to stay here awhile. I've done everything above board, legally, legitimately. The people are really great, not like the stereotypes. It's worth all the hassle I believe, but I think people need to be aware of the reality of the difficulty of the process that France is advertising in trying to attract foreign tech workers.
2. For people from inside the Eurozone, it might still not work: I've had a work contract in a Eurozone country that specified that I had to have a bank account in that country. Not sure why, not sure whether it's legal, but not necessarily something you want to fight.
3. In France, it would not work as a practical matter. In other countries, you give people your IBAN in an email and you're set; in France, they require you to give them something called a RIB, which is a piece of paper (or a PDF) issued by your bank carrying your IBAN. Foreign banks do not issue things that would be accepted as a RIB in France, so your employer would say they can't transfer your money. Stupid? Yes! Everyday reality in France? Also yes, sadly.
The main problem living in france with a foreign account is that most companies (such as phone and energy companies) does not accept foreign account for SEPA debit mandate (IBAN starting with anything else than FR).
It is a major problem for the development of european fintechs development in france, such as N26 german fintech.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance...