The part about ping pong and beer vs a more formal workplace is really interesting.

I've been reading more about this lately. One story that struck me was about a journalist whose newspaper was purchased by a tech company, and the culture changed. She went from having a private office to working in a huge, open office environment. I'm putting this together from memory, but I remember her talking about how strange it felt to have so many people able to see her screen, not knowing where to put her bag if she wasn't at her desk watching it, and having to take it with her to the bathroom (feeling somewhat self conscious about how her more frequent trips appeared to her younger, generally male coworkers).

I'm starting to think that there's something more insidious going on with an almost aggressively enforced "open office" culture in high tech. I also think tech is starting - but just barely - to wake up to the the value of the formality that we discarded and disdained.

I'm really mainly interested in hearing more from you on this, if you're interested in writing more about it.

My wife's in law rather than tech, but she's commented many times about how much she appreciates the formality and process in law firms. E.g. when there's no pressure to socialize with coworkers, nobody has occasion to know that you're a mom with a kid. And your supervising partner may not even be in the same office as you, in which case you're a basically genderless entity represented by an email address and your work product.

No pressure to socialise with coworkers? What kind of law firm is this? Lawyers are by a huge margin the most social people I know. I know a lot of lawyers, and not one of them doesn't go out for social drinks on a Friday at 430...

I think that is very different to the "Tech Happy Hour" and what feels like contrived events you see in "open office, culture (or people?) first" tech world. I have found, personally, that I formed more authentic relationships in those "stuffy", "formal" settings. Because you know what. When I go out on a Friday with my work mates, it's because I like them. Not because when I don't I'm viewed as anti-social or stuck up. I'm a lot of fun. Just don't force it down my throat or I'll give you the middle finger and show you just how unfun I can be.

Ugh. Why must things always coalesce at one end of an extreme or another?

Formality is bad. It is another layer of separation between you and the work. Way back when the original meaning of 'informal' simply meant your employer didn't care about non-work-related stuff like attire -- but its morphed into a culture of its own, destroyed perceptions towards those who really are results-oriented, and sent a lot of people down this path thinking formal is better. A lot of don't want suits at our workplace, but neither do we want ping-pong tables, or even beer (gasp!). We want to be left alone to do our work so we can go home on time and live a happy life.

I think we can thank business-management types, this obnoxious brogrammer culture, and all the not-really-a-computer-nerd-but-I-learned-to-code hacks for the culture we have now. Leave it to the muggles to ruin everything...

sigh

Formality is bad because it locks people into a restrictive environment, but it's good because the rules are clear to all who are playing the game. Ideally, we would have clear rules that are not restrictive, but those are very difficult rules to come up with.

I think you should re-examine the notion that toxic workplaces in tech (particularly w/r/t sexism) result from forces entirely unrelated to the behavior of "actual" computer nerds.

So well said. Personally, I can't stand beer. Just give me anything that tastes good on ice and I'm happy. It's so interesting seeing you state the not-really-a-nerd thing. I am a true nerd that was coding at 11 in QBasic, but at the same time I played rugby and partied hard with my friends.

The laughable thing is that I worked with my first female programmer in 1999 and to this day believe she was one of the best programmers I ever worked with. I'm willing to bet she never thought of us as a bunch of "brogrammers". And I worked for a company owned by ultra-conservative Afrikaans South Africans. She was just another programmer like the rest of us that worked hard and got shit done. We all got paid on merit there and I don't think gender ever entered the equation.

But then this wasn't in America and I've come to understand and accept that America is about ceremony over authenticity. I see it in everywhere in the culture. Ceremony and labels. Oooooh American's love their labels. Let me label you and put you in a box, then I understand you, then I know how to treat you in a "politically correct" way. I grew up in South Africa while apartheid was still in effect. I was privileged enough to see it break down and Mandela elected president during high school. Maybe I just kid myself but, personally, I've always just seen each person as an individual and rather got to know them before branding them based on gender, race, religion or what not.

Or maybe the drugs were just good and I loved everyone...

Could not have stated it better!!

>I'm starting to think that there's something more insidious going on with an almost aggressively enforced "open office" culture in high tech.

Hanlon's razor is useful here. The most likely reason for open offices isn't because of discrimination; it's simply cheaper to pack everyone in a single room than to give everyone a space of their own.

Yes, but it's a good point nonetheless — perhaps "unintended consequence" is a better description than "insidious".

> [...] and having to take it with her to the bathroom (feeling somewhat self conscious about how her more frequent trips appeared to her younger, generally male coworkers)

Get one of these kitchen timers [1].

Set it to about 25 minutes.

When it goes off get up from your desk and spend a few minutes walking around the office.

Return to your desk, reset the timer, and go to prior step.

When you wish to visit the bathroom do so on one of your strolls around the office.

Coworkers will ask what you are doing (this is one of the reasons to use a physical timer instead of something running on your computer...it will be noticeable). Here are three reasonable explanations for why you go on a stroll around the office every 25 minutes or so.

1. It is unhealthy to sit for extended periods. If you get up and move around every 25 or 30 minutes or so most of the bad effects of sitting can be eliminated or greatly reduced [2].

2. When solving problems it is best to have a mix of "focused mode" and "diffuse mode" thinking. Get into focused mode and then when the timer goes off you can take a break and let diffuse mode take over. That walk around the office is perfect for some diffuse mode thinking. There is much more about this in the "Learning How To Learn" course available at Coursera.

3. There is a time management technique called the Pomodoro Technique [3] built around breaking tasks into 25 minute chunks paced using a timer.

Once people see you doing this I'd not be surprised if several other coworkers start doing the same. Reason #1 alone will get a lot of people.

Once several people are doing this no one will have any idea how often you visit the bathroom (well, except for those people whose can see the bathroom from their desks). And as a side effect you'll have better health and productivity.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/60-Minute-Kitcher-Timer-Tomato/dp/B00...

[2] http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/cuesitstand.html

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomodoro_Technique

If I had someone sitting in an open office with one of those tomatos ticking all day, and buzzing every 30 minutes I'd punch them.

By all means, do a pomodoro, but don't use a ticking, vibrating noisy kitchen clock.

or do because open offices are stupid, maybe the ticking is soothing to me! if you value your control over the sounds that surround you, maybe you should push for a more private office setup?

I'm not going to start an elaborate timed exercise ritual so co-workers won't notice when I go to the bathroom. That's ridiculous.

On a side note, I used to work in a small software startup where I was the only female. I was on my period at the time and also wanted to fix my hair, so I just brought my purse with me. I crossed paths with one of my co-workers on the way to the bathroom and he asked "Are you leaving?" I told him I was just going to the bathroom. He said "Why are you bringing your purse?"

I just looked him straight in the eyes, smiled, shook my head slightly, and said "Dan, never ask a woman why she's taking her purse to the bathroom." I'm pretty sure he walked away more embarrassed than I was ;)

But yeah, I'd rather do THAT once in a while than keep a freaking timer on my desk.

When you are self-conscious doing a silly show of yourself for rationalization will only give you something more to be self-conscious about. Merely taking a walk once in a while would pass and is a good idea for other reasons, but this clock thing definitely crosses the line.

I also don't believe that everybody would jump on this bandwagon and totally share the sentiment expressed in sibling comment by maccard.

The clock is to remind you to take a walk. To prevent the bad effects of prolonged sitting you need to get up and move about every 30 or so minutes.

Most people can easily, effortlessly, sit much longer than that before they start to feel stiff or restless and so naturally take a break. It is very easy to unintentionally end up sitting too long.

You posted this in response to some woman being self-conscious about men knowing when she is going to the restroom and I swear it sounds like your intention was to provide her with a disguise to solve this problem of hers. And apparently I wasn't even the only one to interpret it that way.

It almost feels like you are doing the exact kind of post-rationalization I said is an unhealthy thing to do :)

Sometimes I use an unlicensed Jetbrains product - it closes automatically after 30 minutes of action

Sounds like you're not a programmer who's ever gotten in the zone. Because if I had a Fing 25-min timer around me I'd get nothing done.

Nothing beats coming out of a 3 hour programming blur when you realize you haven't eaten anything and have to pee real bad... but you re-wrote that entire module that everyone hates and thought would take weeks to fix. MIC DROP

Or just try working on not being so self-conscious. I'm pretty sure most people really do not care about how often you use the restroom.

> When you wish to visit the bathroom do so on one of your strolls around the office.

But then they will notice that your break did not coincide with the timer, and (depending on the floor plan of the open office), that you did not head for a walk, but straight for the toilets.

Part of the point is to deliberately coincide with the timer.

Why is everyone concerned with how often they piss? I drink 3-4 liters of water a day and take many bathroom breaks. Who cares? Everyone does it. I think it's more concerning that people aren't drinking enough water.

Funny you say that. So many men in tech cos often means lines at the men's room. So it's a time sync. Smart phones do alleviate

> not knowing where to put her bag if she wasn't at her desk watching it, and having to take it with her to the bathroom

I find this bizarre - what do you think the people you work with are going to rob you or go through your stuff? I seem to recall one place had a couple of iphones nicked off desks once by someone who'd managed to shoulder surf inside but I mean of all the complaints that's an odd one to me

Some women keep tampons or pads in their bags, and don't want to rummage through their bags to retrieve the tampon or pad before visiting the bathroom.

Yeah, I've worked in many offices of various sizes and have never been worried about my stuff being stolen. I tend to be a little more relaxed about the fear of theft than most, but the office seems like a fairly safe place.

I really don't think it's insidious - the negative effects are obvious. The issue is that open offices are cheaper and you can put a lot more people per square foot in them. They also often look visually more appealing.

Absolutely.

In my experience, "bro culture" is simply a sign of an immature corporate culture that hasn't figured out how to address true diversity. It means that the workplace is not likely to be supportive of people who don't fit a mold (ping pong and beer are not things I care about). They'll pay some lip service to diversity, and they'll point to some gay guy who is exactly like everyone else (except he dates guys) as an example of "hey look, we're inclusive!".

Your experience meshes well with mine -- when the company leaves the culture out of it, employees have more freedom to be themselves. If you try to cater to one type of employee, anyone not in love with that "culture" is going to feel left out -- so it tends to become self-reinforcing over time.

"Bro culture" also usually involves people without the humility and communication skills to properly band together and rise to the occasion when the going gets rough. Yet another reason to avoid these companies.

I'm not sure if we ever manage to escape the equivalent of high school cliques. Even the the culture of professionalism is still a culture: it places emphasis on professional interactions at work and looks down on playing beer pong on wednesday afternoon. The bros aren't going to have the freedom to "be themselves" there, and would probably be happier at a more lax company. Again, going back to their own clique.

The bros can play pong Wednesday after work without others even knowing about it. What bros do out of work matters less, so they can be bros while more conservative colleague can go to church without someone being disadvantages for it. That is why I find it better.

As for happiness in lax company: it might make people happier if they get money and promotions while actually working less (while moving socialization and fun from home to office), but it is neither meritocracy nor fair. Regardless of whether they are bros or chatting over coffee.

> Even the the culture of professionalism is still a culture: it places emphasis on professional interactions at work and looks down on playing beer pong on wednesday afternoon.

In a meritocracy, where people are supposed to be judged on their work output and ability to generate results, the professional "clique" is far more preferable to the beer pong clique.

As an openly trans woman, I've observed that the more traditional and conservative a business is, the more likely they are to provide a pleasant and non-discriminatory work environment, while freewheeling "look how modern we are!" startups are more likely to provide hostile working environments.

My current employer is the best company I've ever worked for, and they are a highly conservative B2B telecom in Collin County, the fifth most conservative county in Texas (and B2B telecom is a highly conservative industry where nobody will deal with you unless your culture is highly corporate). Nobody has ever given me the slightest iota of shit for being trans, and I have never once felt discriminated against for being a woman. The environment is best described as "highly corporate", the office is a cube farm as far as the eye can see, etc. A huge amount of the people at the company (not everyone, but a lot), especially those in senior and/or management positions, are both Christian and conservative. Until very recently, the TV in the break room was always tuned to Fox News (and they experimented with OAN for a while, too).

On the other hand, the single most abusive company I've ever worked for was a freewheeling early-stage startup.

I've heard similar things from other people as well. It's a paradox: traditional conservative companies are by far and above friendlier to women and minorities in their employ than freewheeling ultra-modern startups are. The upshot is that if you are a woman or a minority, you'll be treated better at a company that's associated with politicians who want to oppress you. Like, tradcons are horrible to us in every other sphere of life, but in the workplace they're beneficial.

I'm just an average woman (edit: that may come off as a funny way to phrase that. What I meant was I don't have the experience of being trans or queer in the work place. Apologies if that came off in a negative way.), but I could not agree more. I worked for a large, centuries old manufacturing comany in their corporate HQ. The work environment turned sour before I left, but it wasn't due to me being a woman. It turned sour for almost everyone. I feel like a lot of these highly established companies have all the checks and procedures in place that even large startups do not. In addition, they have the attitude "We are X. We were here before you and we will be here after you. One individual is not larger than the company." It may get a bit harier for women at the very tops of some of these organizations, but for the rank and file employees it is often a pretty straightforward work experience.

I am not a woman, a person of colour or of fluid sexuality or identity, so disregard my comment if it so pleases you, but the older I get the more I seem to want the exact things you are looking for. A little formality seems like it might be a wonderful thing and I won't have to pretend I care about the owner's bitching new Tesla. I work in tech currently and tend to dress in shorts and a Tshirt, which is comfortable I grant you. It would be a small price to pay to havw to be overly cordial with only my team members amd not trip over scooters strewn about, if it meant I had to wear a button up and slacks. ... Christ I sound like a curmudgeon, but I do think some general personal bounderies would keep people's socio-political views from peeking out in an inappropriate arena, including my own. It sets a tone.

Formality of environment need not extend to dress code. Remember, dress codes are used against women (by men telling the woman how she should be dressing) far more often than they are men.

You can have a formal office without a formal dress code. Yesterday I wore jeans, a t-shirt, chucks and a blazer to work at a formal company. I only wear the blazer because I am physically small and look young, so I feel it enhances my professional image. But it's my choice what to wear; not my employer's.

It does help though. It doesn't need to be overly formal, but putting on nice slacks and a nice shirt with dress shoes helps you go "I am at work. This is different than when I wear my casual clothes. These people are my colleagues and not my friends/family." I'm not saying that it is solely down to the clothes, but that small bit of separation helps.

I do agree with you on a personal level (I wouldn't wear shorts or jeans with holes in them to work, but I do on my own time); but I feel strict company-enforced dress codes are unnecessary for this.

People tend to self-adjust to the norms of their workplace. More than once I have had a male colleague ask me how to address a female employee who wore clothing that they considered too provocative (too short of skirt / low cut shirt).

My response? Say nothing; it's usually a junior employee who is trying to figure out the norms of what to wear at work. Women's fashion is a lot more complicated than men's, and it can take some time to find a professional dress style that works for you. Mansplaining women's fashion to her isn't going to help.

Oh for sure. (I am a woman, btw.) I don't mean specific instances like that. I more mean business casual vs casual as a whole. I went from a business casual to a casual environment. In the winter especially, I wear the same sweaters just with different bottoms (jeans instead of slacks or skirts) and shoes (casual boots or sneakers vs dress boots or heels).

My larger point was that a dress code tends to establish those norms. In addition, a dress code tends to create a floor for what is acceptable. There is always that one person who pushes the minimum. Finally, to me, it helps create a differential mindset. Work is different than home. It is part of the reason I put on real clothes while working from home instead of my PJs.

Dress codes create hostile environments for transgender people, though.

Before transition, I went out of my way to wear baggy unisex clothes. Wearing anything that screamed "male" was a sure-fire way to induce dysphoria in me. That includes business casual clothing.

At my first job, we didn't have a dress code 90% of the time, but whenever we had a customer visit or a board meeting, the CEO would send out an email telling us that as long as the guests were there, we all had to wear light button-up shirts with dark slacks. The idea made me so dysphoric that most of those times, I fabricated an excuse to be sick. I'd smoke a cigarette from a three-year-old pack that I never went through because they were exceedingly rough even when they were new, and then I'd call my boss with an utterly horrendous cough. Then one time I had something to take care of that day, and I couldn't do it from home (it involved hardware), so I carefully studied the CEO's email and realized it said nothing about nails. So I came in dressed in the awful shirt and slacks that made me so dysphoric... and black nail polish on both hands. Just because it was something to take the edge off the dysphoria.

I'm also sure that my dysphoria affected my ability to interview, as well. Before transition, I was terrible at interviewing, and I once had a two-year spell of unemployment where I couldn't have an interview go well for the life of me. And it felt like the suit I wore to the interview was choking the life out of me. But after I transitioned, every single in-person interview I've had has resulted in me getting an offer. In fact, both my current job and my last job were the results of the first in-person interviews I had after I started sending my resume out each time.

Though there was the time when I tried to interview after I began medically transitioning but before I socially transitioned... not only did the suit make me dysphoric, but I spent the interview utterly paranoid that my blazer wasn't enough to hide my growing boobs. Of course, I didn't get the job. That was the last in-person interview I failed.

Maybe it is a generational or just personal thing.

I feel restricted / unnatural and generally unhappy if I have to wear those sort of clothes.

I've noticed a lot of people in the current generation wearing more formal clothes at work, I guess this is a cycle, and us 40ish year olds in T-shirts were doing the opposite of those who came before.

Honestly I find it weird to hear what seems like quite young guys on the train to work having a conversation about the best shoe polish.

Yeah, pretty much this. When I said formal I did not mean to exclude metal kid or force that kid to wear tie. It was not supposed to be about dress code.

I recently started a new gig after having been at a remote startup for several years. New gig is very formal from both process and business perspectives, yet I can still wear jeans and tshirts when I go into the office. I much prefer it over your typical startup experience.

Zizek argues that personal/cultural/cool work environment is for oppression: http://www.businessinsider.com/slavoj-zizek-says-your-office...

Yep, but then so is enforcement of stuff like business casual attire, it's just more obvious.

> Geography matters

I'd really stress the geography aspect of the job search. As a transgender job-seeker, geography has become my first filter. The company culture matters, but so do the city culture (where a number of employees may be drawn from), state laws, and local laws. I look at maps like this one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_employment_discrimination...

Interesting test case: the military has no free beer and I've seen precious few ping pong tables. Yet Marines United is a thing.

The military also shaves everyone's hair the first day then yells, drives you like a dog, and puts them in the best physical shape of their life for the first two months after they join.

Somehow how I think a drill sergeant is inappropriate as a job role in a software development shop. But every other Tuesday were I work we get a visit from the Grill Sergeant. Mmmm... Ribs and Brisket.

I think you misunderstand military culture. Basic training is about preparing you to survive battle. The reason skin color matters less to the military is because they are "blood brothers" -- they have each other's back and keep each other alive, which is an effective means to help people stop sweating the small stuff, like how much melanin the skin of various members contains.

I was just simplifying. I get that Basic is supposed to bring people together. I think the blood brothers things is a bit extreme for most but totally accurate for those unlucky few seeing combat directly. The majority of our armed forced sit in office chairs and man logistics records.

FYI, I worked on a military base, and my Father and Mother were both military. I don't have conventional biases against it.

Basic training does a great many more things than bring people together. And I was also trying to simplify. I see no real need to get into this tangent and nitpick it to death. It isn't really pertinent to the topic at hand.

Peace.

I totally agree with you. Because I only wrote 3 or 4 sentences I left most of what it does out. I only included it because I the mental image of a Drill Sargent acting like a drill Sargent on a software dev team was funny.

Peace.

"Do you want children ? " This question makes me run away.

Now that I'm over 35 (but childless), I've taken it as my duty to privately and gently advise younger colleagues who ask that question that there is absolutely no good answer, especially if the person being asked is a woman over 30.

My flippant answer: "Well, you can't exactly order them from Amazon..."

In my case: yes, I wanted children. The wanting does not always lead to the getting. Any further details from me on this subject might ensure that you never, ever ask that question again, unless you're in a serious romantic relationship with that person.

I bring up children in almost every interview at some point. I want to subtly hint as to where my allegiances lie. It's better when my son has to come home sick from school, and my wife is in some other part of the country.

In the UK that question can't be asked or it opens the employer to liabilities.

While it may not specifically be illegal in the US, it's certainly opening the interviewing company up to huge potential liability. All the interviewee would have to do would be to show that it's more likely than not that they were intending to discriminate based on gender / likelihood to get pregnant.

Definitely not a question that should be asked.

> The idea is that the less it attempts to be personal/cool/cultural the less personal things (e.g. gender or peoples attitudes/biases or who-likes-who) matters and the more actual work matters.

Really? I've always worked in casual environments (not free beer casual lol) and have never experienced this.

Thanks for sharing!