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Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by snomad on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @10:15AM (#14401329)
> One employee said that during a one-on-one performance review with a manager, he was told that his rating dropped from "Exceeds" to "Meets" because he didn't get as much done while on paternity leave.

If true, that is quite obviously legally actionable.

Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by nxc18 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @10:37AM (#14401563)
I get why there should be protection for people on paternity leave. At the same time, if you're using an 'expectations' system appropriately and honestly (as opposed to just a renaming of some other scale) it may be dishonest to not change his rating. If there is an expectation about performance and it wasn't exceeded (how could you exceed your typical performance while on paternity leave?) then the employee shouldn't be given an exceeds.

The big issues here (at least for me) are that a) there was a non-zero expectation for someone on paternity leave and b) someone was given a performance evaluation either while on or regarding work done during a paternity leave.

I'm curious if this signals a larger issue at Google where they have paternity leave 'in name only' - similar to 'unlimited' vacation policies and the like.

Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by sjg007 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @11:16AM (#14401922)
I mean there should be a zero expectation policy if you are on paternity leave. Then if you actually get something done, then you're by definition "exceeds". That's the logical approach. Or you just don't have a performance review for that period.
Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by shidoshi on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @11:04AM (#14401818)
Yeah, no. You manage to expectations while the person is capable of performing their duties. Using your logic is exactly why women suffer the indignation of being paid $0.77 to every man's dollar of equal functional qualification level. We all assume Google is a very wise and smart corporation, so let's assume that bonus, RSUs, and all discretionary income is proportional to time worked. That's how you solve the "you weren't here for the entire period" problem.
Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by anothercomment on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @12:08PM (#14402393)
"women suffer the indignation of being paid $0.77 to every man's dollar of equal functional qualification level."

That is not the case, the gender pay gap does not compare salaries for equal job positions and qualifications.

Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by shidoshi on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @01:20PM (#14403082)
Yes, the prevalence of studies that report averages are what you are referencing--though you don't provide any. But, there are plenty of anecdotes (e.g. the several Google Sheets pay experiments folks have run) showing disparity. I am a sample of one, but I have seen this disparity--and, worked to fix it--with folks I've managed over the years as well. So, I do not agree with absolutes like "that is not the case."
Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by anothercomment on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @04:56PM (#14405254)
The 77% number is specifically from the "official gender pay gap", presumably published by your national ministry of statistics or whatever (I am not from the US, but here in Germany the official ministry for statistics does the same). And that explicitly does not show 77 Cent to the dollar, as it does not compare people in the same jobs.

Anecdotes are also really misleading here: not everybody earns the same amount of money, so you can always find two people where one of the two earns more than the other. It doesn't mean anything. And as a male engineer I have also discovered before that somebody who seemed less qualified earned more than me. Renegotiate, or switch companies.

As for the Google spreadsheet, it is interesting, but I doubt it captures sufficient detail.

In fact, a often used trick with the gender pay gap (among other things) is to remove just enough detail to make it seem outrageous.

For example lets say pediatricians earn less on average than neurosurgeons, but more women become pediatricians then neurosurgeons (why is another matter). Now if you want to give the impression of sexist salaries, you don't publish the average income of male and female pediatricians and male and female neurosurgeons. You go one step back and publish the average salaries of male and female physicians. Just omit the details that could explain the differences in salaries, and you have shown your desired sexist wage gap.

(why pediatricians earn less than neurosurgeons: simple supply and demand).

Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by occamrazor on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @10:42AM (#14401621)
I'd agree that someone who is on leave, and doesn't work, indeed"meets" expectations. It would be a problem only if everybody is expected to exceed expectations, but then all the evaluation process becomes, almost by definition, nonsensical.
Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by Bartweiss on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @10:54AM (#14401721)
I mean, I think the problem is evaluating performance at all for time not spent at work. If someone was on leave for part of a review period, that time shouldn't be evaluated. If they were on leave for most/all of it, that review should probably be skipped as null. Doing otherwise creates a misleading conflation between "meeting the expectation of leave" and "meeting the expectations of the job".
Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by pflats on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @10:57AM (#14401744)
That's ridiculous. Leave is leave; it's an employee's right that's offered in law or in their contract, and they should not be punished in any way for taking advantage of it.

If the employee would otherwise exceed expectations and took paternity leave, then they still exceed expectations. If they were hired in March and worked for 40 weeks, they would not be penalized for failing to work in January or February. Leave should be handled the same way.

If the employee was not professional about taking leave (didn't give any notice, did not work with colleagues to organize coverage of his tasks, etc.) then things are different. Similarly, if they promised to do something while on leave and didn't, then that would be an issue.

Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by zeveb on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @11:03AM (#14401806)
> Leave is leave; it's an employee's right that's offered in law or in their contract, and they should not be punished in any way for taking advantage of it.

Being rated as someone who meets expectations is not a punishment.

Certainly, one has the right to exercise one's rights, but one also has a duty to acknowledge that they impact others. Someone who takes paternity leave will, mutatis mutandis, achieve less than someone who does not; someone who is on leave for an entire review period and does nothing related to work cannot fairly be said to exceed expectations.

Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by feedjoelpie on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @11:16AM (#14401919)
> Being rated as someone who meets expectations is not a punishment.

On a scale of 1, 2, and 3, where each of these confers different privileges, when I knock you down from a 3 to a 2 specifically because of X, I am punishing you for X.

The corporate words tied to the ratings are not magical.

Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by MichaelGG on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @11:06AM (#14401845)
>Being rated as someone who meets expectations is not a punishment.

Is that true? I seem to recall a scene from Office Space and flair about this...

Seems like they shouldn't include leave in the review at all and only review when they're working.

Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by jerrylives on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @10:46AM (#14401661)
The point is that you are on paternity leave, taking care of a child on a company sanctioned policy. It's like being told you didn't work hard enough on your vacation - it doesn't make sense to set "work" expectations for a period in which one is absent from work.
Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by Chris2048 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @10:57AM (#14401747)
Isn't exceeds like getting a bonus? You still want bonus while on paternity? I thought only legal requirement is base rate and expected payments - which a bonus is not?
Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by krzyk on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @11:24AM (#14402014)
As others have wrote, paternity is like a vacation. It's time off work, you can't be evaluated on that time, it's like it doesn't exists for evaluation. So if you exceeded expectations a day before taking paternity you still do the day you are back.
Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by Chris2048 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @05:14PM (#14405416)
I wouldn't expect a bonus on vacation either.

It depends on what the rating is used for.

Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by refurb on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @10:35AM (#14401542)
Is it?

As long as the performance review was done based on the employee's performance over the entire year, it's fair game no?

I'm not sure I agree with the logic that someone who takes time off during the year is given credit for the good work they would have done had they not taken time off.

Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by wcummings on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @10:52AM (#14401709)
The logic is that you aren't expected to work in your off time so it shouldn't factor in at all. If his work exceeded during the time he was working whether or not he took leave shouldn't effect that.

Reviews should be about the quality of the work, not whether you take 0 vacations days or work until 10pm everyday because you're 22 and don't have a family.

Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by sidlls on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @11:02AM (#14401804)
Consider it as a ratio WQ:T where "WQ" is the Work x Quality product and T is the Time of employment. You're saying that T should be a constant and include time an employee isn't expected to be working, but WQ is fair to vary. Essentially you're adding to T even when the employee is expected explicitly to not add to WQ.

So in my opinion it's not fair game.

Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by diabeetusman on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @10:51AM (#14401693)
At the company where I work, they temporarily disable accounts for both paternity and maternity leave to prevent that exact issue.
Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by wcarron on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @11:18AM (#14401951)
I'm not so sure. Wouldn't a person on paternity leave be expected to perform less, if not zero work? By doing that, didn't he "meet" expectations? That seems, technically speaking, the accurate description.

Of course, if paternity leave really means "we expect you to work at a similar rate", then it's quite obviously not a "paternity leave" in anything other than name.

Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by dominotw on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @10:58AM (#14401752)
review should be done only for the time that employee was not on leave. makes sense.
Re:At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment a... by umanwizard on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @10:34AM (#14401525)
Why? What law was violated?