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Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by cbanek on Friday May 12, 2017 @03:09PM (#14326924)
> Humans are agressively being eliminated from as many business models as possible.

Well that's true, where they don't add value. What's the difference between the case of getting movie tickets and your waiter at a fancy restaurant? One of them is practically a useless annoyance, and the other one is part of the experience.

Someone in a movie box isn't going to tell you about the movie, or have a conversation about it with you. They are there to take the most basic info (movie, time) and money, and give you a ticket. It's also always done thru a thick bit of glass that makes communication sometimes difficult if not painful.

On the other hand, the fancy waiter will make recommendations. Will tell you about other things, and is generally part of the ambiance and experience of eating out.

Honestly, do we really like interacting with the people with minimum wage jobs? Not really. Most people seem to prefer the automated checkout, ordering on their phone, etc. While sometimes the person doing the job can be interesting, or friendly, even if the person is amazing, generally these jobs are pretty repetitive, and could be done easier, faster, and cheaper with automation. Not only for the employer, but the customer. Most of these people also are not thrilled about their jobs and be lazy, or do a bad job (I can't blame them really, you get what you pay for). The only thing keeping employees around was that automation was more expensive (and more unreliable). Now it's the flip - labor is much more expensive and unreliable than automation. Now people in those jobs have to prove where they add value, if it's only to watch over the machines.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by e_d_e_v on Friday May 12, 2017 @03:22PM (#14327055)
When I worked in the movie box, that was not at all true. People would come in and ask about the movie. How long was it, whether it was any good, should they see another one instead? We gave them real answers. Just because you have a minimum wage job doesn't mean you're a bump on a log. If you've lost sight of the value of basic human interaction with anyone not baked into your caste, I pity you, even if you are in the majority. Also, 99% of movies today are crap, so there's not much to talk about.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by cbanek on Friday May 12, 2017 @03:30PM (#14327120)
Like I said in my original comment, even if the people are great, they are usually doing a very boring repetitive job. And even if they aren't a "bump on a log," many employers these days honestly want them to be. (liability, efficiency) They really want a robot that is cheaper, not a person. There are so many rules about what an employee can and should do now, especially for lower level jobs. What they can say, how they can say it, what abilities they have to resolve customer problems, if they should interact with the customers at all, etc.

I honestly think the whole demise of customer service is the result of this. People feel in a double bind because they aren't allowed and aren't supposed to help customers. Or if they can, they aren't rewarded for it and take a greater risk by doing it. People can do much greater things, be more helpful, be more friendly, and generally add value - if their employer would allow and reward it. But most are just looking at profit, and speed from entry to exit, and a lot of customers are too.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by ethbro on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:51PM (#14328826)
I'd argue that those companies that have squeezed the humanity out of their workers are the first ones getting dislocated by the market. E.g. Blockbuster being bankrupt and our local independent video store doing just fine. Or McDonald's vs Waffle House.

If you play was "we can provide a worse service for less" then yes, you're going to get steamrolled by automation. If your business is run around adding value (like informative parent of yore in the ticket booth), then your value is going to increase until strong AI (if that ever happens).

Assuming people like talking to humans. Sometimes I wonder about the HN crowd...

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by cbanek on Friday May 12, 2017 @08:22PM (#14328948)
I think you hit it on the head - it depends on the service being provided, and how the people relate to providing it.

Some people like talking to humans, some don't. It often changes as well. But for incredibly basic mundane transactions, I'd lean on the "I don't like talking to humans." But it's also slower to talk to humans, and generally there is a line, making it again slower. If I have to add travel time in there, that's a factor. So if the person at the end doesn't add at least some positive value (other than just doing what I need done), I'd rather go the faster way.

Also, if a company is squeezing the workers and not the market, that probably means that company is having trouble no matter what the workers are doing.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by intended on Saturday May 13, 2017 @12:00PM (#14331579)
A major point of data missing in your example is all the many, many cafes, diners and other eateries which Mc Donald's itself wiped out.

The point being that lots of independent and service focused restaurants have died, and automation, consistency and efficiency has decimated the alternative.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by ethbro on Monday May 15, 2017 @02:09PM (#14343703)
I look at it in terms of competitive advantage. (And I'm not authoritative on any of the following, so don't take me as gospel)

Imho, McD and the first wave of franchisee stores leveraged price and consistency as their advantage. Their logistic chains were more efficient, and they could standardize their operation (benefit to efficiency and customer).

The market did decide that their prices (which were nationally set afaik) and consistency won over the qualities independent chains brought to the picture.

However, I think in the intervening years there have been a few developments.

Firstly, Sysco and the national food suppliers as intermediaries. So aside from volume discounts, everyone's sitting on the same logistics backing now.

Secondly, consistency as a commodity. Whereas before this was a competitive advantage (because it distinguished them from Local Dairy Freeze 283), now it's the market average.

I see it as, as you noted, McD's and the like put everyone else out of business... but we're now in the future past that where they have become the model that's ripe for disruption.

Maybe that looks like Chipotle and Five Guys (limited menu, better product, slightly higher price), or maybe it looks like a return to local service, now backed by automation and turnkey logistics chains.

I can't see a future with McD's where it isn't a fully-automated, human-less burger factory though. Unless they basically toss out their existing business model.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by cujo on Friday May 12, 2017 @03:32PM (#14327138)
> 99% of movies today are crap, so there's not much to talk about

So it's true now, then.

> If you've lost sight of the value of basic human interaction with anyone not baked into your caste, I pity you, even if you are in the majority.

This seems a bit extreme. I assume you don't use ATMs, auto-bill pay, or automatic check deposit then either? Because you clearly value human interaction at all possible avenues?

Perhaps people's "need" for interaction as they go about their day is somewhere in the middle.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by cracell on Friday May 12, 2017 @03:40PM (#14327202)
I would find this super annoying while waiting in line to buy tickets.

If that's a service that makes sense to have theaters can always keep it. One staffed line for people that want to chit chat and automated kiosks for people like me who just want to buy a ticket.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by dexterdog on Friday May 12, 2017 @03:48PM (#14327288)
My local big theater has exactly that
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by tedmiston on Saturday May 13, 2017 @04:34PM (#14332863)
Doesn't every theater have automated ticketing kiosks now?
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by dsacco on Friday May 12, 2017 @04:40PM (#14327729)
There was probably a nicer way to make that point without attacking the parent's awareness of "the value of basic human interaction."

For what it's worth, I didn't infer any value judgement about caste in the comment.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by 1_2__3 on Friday May 12, 2017 @04:44PM (#14327755)
I did and think the reply's tone was perfectly reasonable given the parent comment's dismissiveness.

Yeah I do like interacting with people. Even "minimum wage workers" who last time I checked were still people.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by douche on Saturday May 13, 2017 @07:45AM (#14330462)
That's fine. Some of us are already maxed out on our low budget of human interaction and craze cold, mechanical, impersonal efficiency. Dealing with error-prone, chatty human beings is not fun for some of us, when they simply serve as an obstacle to what we need.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by dsacco on Saturday May 13, 2017 @11:24AM (#14331426)
Sure, but my point is that he never said they're not people. I believe you're reading something in it that isn't really there. It feels like you're unfairly mischaracterizing what was actually said, which was rather neutral.

Some people (myself included) appreciate minimum wage workers as humans and still want the efficiency that comes with automation. It's a mixed bag. When I'm at CVS I would rather have actual cashiers. At a movie theater I'd rather have a ticket machine.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by paulddraper on Friday May 12, 2017 @03:42PM (#14327215)
> 99% of movies today are crap

Survivorship bias. They always have been.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by berberous on Friday May 12, 2017 @10:41PM (#14329311)
That's not true. The economics of movies and TV has shifted overtime. (What are the distribution avenues? What sort of projects get funded? Etc.)

Movies today are much more likely to be high budget, rehashed/sequels, most common denominator, etc.

TV, on the other hand, has been in a golden era for the past decade. Netflix/HBO/etc. has allowed lots of interesting more niche pieces to get produced.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by coldtea on Friday May 12, 2017 @05:22PM (#14328045)
"Things are always the same" fallacy.

No, there are periods that are artistically more fruitful and interesting that others, and the history of art knows and documents several of them.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by brownbat on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:04PM (#14328617)
> there are periods that are artistically more fruitful and interesting that others,

Sure, but the claim was just that there have always been bad movies.

Here's a test: If there's some year you know of where bad movies were exceptionally rare, let us know. Then we'll see if we can provide counterexamples.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by jfoutz on Friday May 12, 2017 @08:27PM (#14328963)
My pick for year is 1878. I'd love to see your examples.

But really, how do you quantify good? Taste is subjective. The original Transformers move is a great example. I didn't like it. but i believe 14 year old me would have absolutely loved it.

It's similar to the statistics about Word users only use 5% of the functionality of Word. But everybody uses a different 5%.

I guess if you want to go by money, i'm going to pick 1939. I'd guess about $18,000,000 in production expenses, and about $240,000,000 in box. [1] (arbitrarily assigning 1,000,000 to the unlisted numbers, but keeping the box at $0 for unlisted numbers) Seems like a pretty good ROI. (although i think of, Gone with the wind, Mr Smith goes to washington, and the Wizard of Oz as subjectively good. 25% is a pretty good percentage)

Kind of a fun exercise poking through the years. 1997 was a standout, but everything i looked at had memorable and fun movies. I don't think any year would hit that 25% mark though.

[1] http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/year/1939

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by brownbat on Friday May 12, 2017 @09:05PM (#14329076)
> My pick for year is 1878.

Very funny.

> I guess if you want to go by money, i'm going to pick 1939.

You listed several great films, but I'm not disputing there were years with several great films, that's a completely separate point.

> But really, how do you quantify good? Taste is subjective.

I will concede that if we adopt a radical skepticism towards all aesthetic values then the claim "every year has bad films" collapses.

However, if we agree to make that move... the original claim that "everything in the theater now is terrible" is also false. Or "there's something special (and bad) about the quality of film at this very moment" also collapses.

So I'm good with this move. I accept the gambit.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by jfoutz on Friday May 12, 2017 @09:30PM (#14329157)
Oh, for sure. We agree "Everything I the theater is terrible" is false.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by coldtea on Saturday May 13, 2017 @09:09AM (#14330770)
>But really, how do you quantify good? Taste is subjective.

That's why I don't use random individual tastes as a measure, but informed (from decades of studying movies and moviemaking) and argued critiques (by movie critics, other directors, and everyone with similar expertise).

The same way most will agree that Citizen Kane is a great movie, even if 16 year old John, from Buffalo, Indiana finds it "boring and gay".

That said, I also don't believe that just because something is fuzzy (like "what's a good work of art") and can't be defined with numerical precision, it's also impossible to reason about at all. So, in that sense, I'm satisfied with a general "expert consensus" on whether a movie's great and don't expect to have some absolute quantification of that.

So, to agree with my opinion, one should probably also be OK with fuzzy, not totally quantified inquiries (incidentally the inverse is something the climate deniers use for their advantage: they say that because the scientific community can explicitly give a specific number on the impact of human activity on the climate, it is bogus: http://blog.dilbert.com/post/157823678756/tucker-carlson-ind... ).

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by Mz on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:08PM (#14328635)
Given that there are now like 7 billion people on the planet AND we can make indie movies cheaply, home movies, etc. probably at least 99.9999% of movies today are crap.

It used to take a lot more resources and know how to make a movie. Today, any hack can do so. Gawd.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by dredmorbius on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:30PM (#14328734)
Reduced costs of creative production (or distribution of same) means that more low-quality crud will be produced and/or distributed.

Which makes filtering all the more critical.

Herbert Simon. Alvin Toffler. James Gleick. Ted Sturgeon.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by brandonmenc on Friday May 12, 2017 @03:34PM (#14327157)
> When I worked in the movie box, that was not at all true. People would come in and ask about the movie. How long was it, whether it was any good, should they see another one instead? We gave them real answers.

Your smartphone gives you all of these answers now.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by freshhawk on Saturday May 13, 2017 @12:57AM (#14329588)
Those smartphones answers are full of paid shills and scores made up of fraudulent votes. Even people who aren't on HN (and likely at least know this, if they haven't literally done it) are starting to catch on to that these days.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by KJP191 on Saturday May 13, 2017 @06:43AM (#14330292)
The person in the booth is literally employed by the movie theater
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by darpa_escapee on Saturday May 13, 2017 @01:19AM (#14329635)
The ratings and reviews on my smartphone are often paid for or are artificially inflated by anyone willing to pay review sites or reputation management firms.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by taway_1212 on Saturday May 13, 2017 @06:10AM (#14330208)
I think you just need to learn to interpret the numbers. For a big Hollywood movie, anything sub-8.0 on imdb in the week after release (where the shill votes still aren't outweighed by the general population votes) is bad. Just for this week, this rule of thumb tells me for example that the "Alien: Covenant" is probably not worth watching, and "The Circle" is a disaster.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by darpa_escapee on Saturday May 13, 2017 @09:45PM (#14333815)
> I think you just need to learn to interpret the numbers.

I'm not sure how I can learn to interpret something that's been manipulated by people with vested interest to promote their product or put down a competitor's.

The value from these sites stem from actual consumer ratings, not bots or the services themselves changing ratings.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by wavefunction on Friday May 12, 2017 @03:43PM (#14327223)
Perhaps it's a matter of trusting the person behind the counter over your smartphone.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by Erik816 on Friday May 12, 2017 @03:45PM (#14327243)
Why trust one random person (who may not have even seen the movie you are interested in, share your preferences, or be particular insightful) when you can have the aggregate wisdom of everyone who has seen the movie and cared enough to rate it?
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by groby_b on Friday May 12, 2017 @06:06PM (#14328298)
Because, frankly, I don't give a shit about aggregate "wisdom". (It's aggregate opinions, no wisdom to be found there).

Many movies are polarizing. In aggregate, they're OK. Talking to a single person whose opinion I trust is much more helpful than getting an average from 1,000s. Look at Yelp ratings - everything is pretty good by now, and the recommendations are mostly meaningless. They don't fit my needs, if my needs go beyond "I need edible food in a certain price category".

It turns out experts trump the crowd when it comes to opinions, because the opinion of a crowd is almost always indifferent.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by sqeaky on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:12PM (#14328654)
I disagree with you on almost every, but so much of it is soft and nebulous so lets you are correct for most of your comment. I just want to pick on tiny part:

> Talking to a single person whose opinion I trust

Why should we trust the person at the ticket counter?

They have no special knowledge or insight. It seems likely to me they will have below average insight otherwise they wouldn't be working an easy to automate job.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by groby_b on Monday May 15, 2017 @04:03PM (#14344654)
They have seen a ton of movies. (One of the few perks of that job). They certainly have opinions on them. And while they might not align with my opinions, I can calibrate for that. But "expertise" or no, they hold information I don't have - how did they experience the movie. They likely have seen it. I haven't. Talking to them increases the amount of information available to me.

I can't calibrate for the averaged-together soup of opinions on online forums. Because everything is average, nothing matters.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by dredmorbius on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:34PM (#14328752)
The point is expertise.

If a consideration in employing someone at the ticket counter is that they have well-founded opinions or suggestions to offer on films, then, by way of their expert status, you've cause to believe them.

Otherwise, this collapses to a general critique of the upstream assertion: that "low-value" positions, such as box-office worker, see no labour value add, whilst simultaneously a certain set of positions, say, white-linens restaurant waiter and/or somnlier, do.

I don't see both arguments being valid simultaneously.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by Turing_Machine on Friday May 12, 2017 @09:39PM (#14329181)
The person behind the counter in a movie theater is usually a high school aged teen.

Their opinions as to what constitutes a good movie are almost certainly wildly at variance with my own.

That said, Yelp-type reviews aren't much better.

About the best you can do is find a professional movie or restaurant reviewer whose opinions match yours and go with that.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by dredmorbius on Saturday May 13, 2017 @01:27AM (#14329660)
I'd applied a specific conditional to my response. You're disregarding it.

That doesn't address the case where the condition is satisfied.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by Turing_Machine on Saturday May 13, 2017 @08:22AM (#14330594)
You mean this?

"If a consideration in employing someone at the ticket counter is that they have well-founded opinions or suggestions to offer on films, then, by way of their expert status, you've cause to believe them."

I'm disregarding it because it's observably not true.

People are employed at theatre ticket offices because they are teens who are willing to work nights and weekends for minimum wage, not because they're film experts.

Expecting a ticket booth employee to be Roger Ebert is about as reasonable as expecting a Radio Shack employee to be a qualified electrical engineer.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by wavefunction on Saturday May 13, 2017 @11:18AM (#14331390)
Actually it's the opposite of asking a random person a question, which is what aggregated opinion really stems from.

The person behind the counter, for example, has likely seen the movie given the folks I've known who work these jobs. As well, they might tell you something like "the people leaving the movie are always talking animatedly" or some other insight that a random movie-goer likely couldn't assert themselves.

I was just pointing out that people have different preferences and that there are many reasons one might trust a single person behind the ticket counter over whatever information they might derive from their smartphone.

That this is so controversial is amusing to me.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by jimbokun on Friday May 12, 2017 @05:44PM (#14328186)
Why trust the waiter over Yelp?
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by sqeaky on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:13PM (#14328660)
Because yelp is horrible.

You argument is much stronger as "Why trust the waiter over meaningful online reviews?"

That argument is much stronger and I can only attack in niche markets like very high end restaurants.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by kefka on Friday May 12, 2017 @06:46PM (#14328545)
Oh yes. BaaB - blackmail as a business.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by weaksauce on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:23PM (#14328691)
Side question... Is there anything better than Yelp?
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by majormajor on Friday May 12, 2017 @11:53PM (#14329461)
Knowing people in real life.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by SuperPaintMan on Saturday May 13, 2017 @02:33AM (#14329781)
This.

Talk to some locals and you'll quickly learn the atmospheres of various locations, times to go, where to avoid, etc. As long as their preferences are fairly similar to your own the suggestions will always trump what a generic review site will offer. This also sidesteps the problem of paid reviews and the like.

That dive down the road may not be as terrible as it seems. Provided you're looking for a specific type of experience. Avoid the food, stay for the local brew, sweaty 20 somethings and stumbling down alleys with some new friends.

>Worked in the restaurant industry for a few years

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by icebraining on Saturday May 13, 2017 @04:13AM (#14329994)
Doesn't work very well when the people you know in real life (and whose judgment you trust) can only rarely afford to eat out.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by striking on Saturday May 13, 2017 @12:18AM (#14329513)
The American Express concierge service.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by ddingus on Saturday May 13, 2017 @03:09AM (#14329861)
Friends. I completely avoid yelp.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by dboreham on Friday May 12, 2017 @11:44PM (#14329445)
Because it takes more work to extract useful information from Yelp.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by maverick_iceman on Friday May 12, 2017 @03:53PM (#14327340)
A person will be more reliable than your phone regarding these basic information? Give me a break.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by dang on Saturday May 13, 2017 @02:47AM (#14329814)
We've banned this account for repeatedly posting uncivilly and ignoring our many requests to stop.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by hkmurakami on Friday May 12, 2017 @06:10PM (#14328320)
It's like the (independent) bookstore employee. They probably make minimum wage but they are interesting to talk to, are up to date on the latest great books, and really do add to the value of the store.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by saulrh on Friday May 12, 2017 @05:55PM (#14328251)
When and where did that happen? Every time I've been to a movie theater in the last fifteen years, it's had a ten-person line and everybody was in get-in-get-out mode. I can see value in moving the people in the box sideways into a reviewing-and-recommending role, but that's a sideways move as a result of the current role disappearing.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by maverick_iceman on Friday May 12, 2017 @03:50PM (#14327313)
Was this in planet Earth or somewhere else? I've been to over 1000 movies and have never seen it happening with me or anyone else.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by justinator on Friday May 12, 2017 @05:49PM (#14328221)
You write as though you've never held a minimum wage job. Have some compassion for those people who are working hard for almost nothing. Sometimes, it isn't their first choice, or it's their only choice. I would suggest a better experience is had when you give respect to the (say) service industry worker you engage in a transaction with.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by nv-vn on Friday May 12, 2017 @09:09PM (#14329092)
I disagree. It's not that the GP isn't being compassionate or understanding their perspective. They're describing why automation is more appealing to a large company and why this change is taking place. That said, the change will likely be met with the same response that similar changes have come with: people won't be out of jobs, the job market will change. Programming jobs will become more common, for example. Minimum wage jobs will turn into more conventional jobs/push more people into the software industry. It's sad that they're losing their jobs now, but the hope is that this will elevate them in society and give them new opportunities (which in the past has proven to be the case, luckily).
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by unityByFreedom on Saturday May 13, 2017 @05:22AM (#14330107)
> It's not that the GP isn't being compassionate or understanding their perspective. They're describing why automation is more appealing to a large company

Could be both

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by intended on Saturday May 13, 2017 @11:17AM (#14331387)
Even economists themselves finally admit that retraining is the missing link in the global trade model. So while jobs go, people don't transfer into other well paying jobs. Instead the good jobs are replaced by worse paying service sector jobs.

So that theory that people will get new opportunities which are as good, or they can transition into is not valid.

Now if the service sector jobs go too?

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by Taek on Friday May 12, 2017 @06:16PM (#14328354)
Maybe we should be working on better ways to get the poor educated and integrated with modern society as opposed to making them dependent on jobs which take all of their time, don't pay nearly enough, and block any and all opportunity for a way out because there's no free time or disposable income.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by gwright on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:23PM (#14328695)
You seem to be assuming that low-wage workers are all poor and uneducated. That is misleading. From [1]:

  50% of minimum wage workers are under the age of 24
  25% of minimum wage workers are under the age of 19
Entry level jobs paying minimum wage teach important skills to teens and young adults:

  * being on time
  * attention to detail
  * how to work with others
  * how to follow instructions ...
There is certainly room for discussion about how to help heads-of-household who are struggling with a minimum wage job because they don't have any other skills, but it is a mistake to assume that is the situation for all minimum wage workers.

High minimum wages price many entry level workers right out of the market making it difficult for them to gain these entry level skills which are important for subsequent jobs.

[1] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/08/who-makes-mi...

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by lovich on Friday May 12, 2017 @09:06PM (#14329077)
I don't know what entry level jobs you worked at. Every single entry level job I worked at just taught you how to sign off paper work saying you did procedure A when you hadn't done it months, how palling around with the managers got you whatever shift you wanted, and how to turn a 2 minute trip into the back room into a 30 minutes break. There were some lessons in petty theft as well if you were interested in that. You had to go at least 3 levels of management up to actually find someone who cared about the results of the work, and who wasn't just pulling a paycheck.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by lovich on Friday May 12, 2017 @11:23PM (#14329407)
I'm going to add more to this cause the idea of entry level jobs teaching skills you need to work at other jobs isn't sitting right with me.

As a rule, the only skill entry level jobs teach anymore that apply to future jobs is how to eat shit and keep going. Every single habit you would learn would need to be unlearned to be valuable in skilled labor. You need to be independent and able to think of novel solutions to provide value at higher skilled jobs. Entry level jobs will grind you up and fire you under some made up offense so you can't even get unemployment. You succeed by being as close to a robot as possible.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by unityByFreedom on Saturday May 13, 2017 @05:25AM (#14330115)
> As a rule, the only skill entry level jobs teach anymore that apply to future jobs is how to eat shit and keep going

Eh, I've had this experience at well-salaried jobs too. It's a job thing, not a minimum wage thing.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by dredmorbius on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:28PM (#14328720)
There are two distinct problems at play:

1. Workers whose contributions are undervalued.

2. Workers who cannot be trained or educated to provide high-value labour.

These are both issues.

(There are other categories: parents, caregivers, the disabled, sick, or handicapped, etc. But the two classifications above represent a major part of systemic failure of labour markets.)

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by ethbro on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:46PM (#14328809)
3. Creating a hellish nightmare society where I am not afforded the opportunity to talk to a single random person in the going about of my average day.

If you think the class gaps and problems of lack of cross-socioeconomic empathy are an issue now, wait until a middle class worker can go 24 hours without ever having to interact with anyone making less than them.

"Raise taxes to fund foodstamps? Crazy! I hear the poor are doing just fine eating their insect protein cubes. I saw a report about it on the TV last night!"

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by mnm1 on Friday May 12, 2017 @08:41PM (#14329015)
I'm middle class and I can go 24 hours or even many days without interacting with anyone. The future is already here. Can't say I'm all that impressed with it.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by taway_1212 on Saturday May 13, 2017 @05:55AM (#14330179)
I've quit my remote job for in-office for this very reason. The hell of constant noise and having to warm up seat for 8 hours (even when I can realistically concentrate on code for maybe 4-6) is better than the hell of sitting at home alone coding for months. I think... (I'm starting the in-office job in a couple weeks).
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by douche on Saturday May 13, 2017 @07:39AM (#14330445)
The in-office hell is worse.

Hell is other people.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by taway_1212 on Saturday May 13, 2017 @08:22AM (#14330593)
The problem is, in remote job there are still other people, but they are in remote time zones and your bandwidth to them is frustratingly limited (most communications occur via chat, sometimes a hangout). It does not make the communication less important though - for example, some code nazi on your team will post lots of remarks to your patches in code review and now, instead of going to him and explaining your perspective, you need to painstakingly type it into boxes on Github... My experience was that the review process with such people (when done remotely) takes at least as many calendar days as the work itself. Granted, it's not all useless pedantism - they often want me to rewrite the code so that it's more similar to the rest of the codebase (we were doing Scala+Play, where you often have many ways to approach a problem) - but it would be so much less painful to go over it in person.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by dredmorbius on Friday May 12, 2017 @10:01PM (#14329229)
That's drifting significantly from the matter at consideration here.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by Eyas on Friday May 12, 2017 @06:37PM (#14328496)
We should also work on better ways to equip society to have skills that are more "valuable" in the modern high-tech world, absolutely.

The incompassioante charge made by the gp is still fair, I think: Saying these workers provide "no value" is too business-focused and incompassioante. Yes, these workers provide little value in terms of profit to the business, but looking at societal value at a larger scales, these jobs do have value (to the workers, to their families, to the local businesses and landlords they can now make business with using their wages, to homelessness, crime, hunger, etc.). Simply replacing these workers with technology is a net negative for society if we don't do what you suggested.

The free market thinking that the poor deserve to be fired because their skills are no longer competitive, can be, I think, a privileged and incompassioante position.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by prostoalex on Saturday May 13, 2017 @01:13AM (#14329619)
> workers provide "no value" is too business-focused and incompassioante

By creating the minimum wage floor the government enforces the notion of value creation. With hypothetical example of minimum wage set at $10 an hour everyone producing $10.01 worth of value within a 60-minute period gets to stay, everyone producing $9.99 and below gets to leave.

Compare that to Asian societies where some companies have an [usually older] tea and coffee lady in the break room. The pay is usually next to non-existent - the lady is usually retired and has a variety of savings and a safety net. She doesn't do it for a paycheck, but she craves human contact, so helping out with tea and coffee while chatting to younger employees is fulfilling her social (but never financial) needs at that age.

Such a position is impossible in US corporate environment within the current framework of labor laws, so we deny older people gigs with simple communication opportunities. Not necessarily because US companies are generally more evil and stingy.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by crdoconnor on Saturday May 13, 2017 @07:26AM (#14330412)
"Compare that to Asian societies where some companies have an [usually older] tea and coffee lady in the break room. The pay is usually next to non-existent - the lady is usually retired and has a variety of savings and a safety net. She doesn't do it for a paycheck, but she craves human contact, so helping out with tea and coffee while chatting to younger employees is fulfilling her social (but never financial) needs at that age."

When I used to live in Singapore I saw a lot of miserable looking hunchbacked old ladies and men cleaning food courts and they were for sure doing it for financial reasons:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-01-06/what-reti...

The worst part is the excuse - the country is staggeringly wealthy, vastly unequal and yet excuses itself with "we can't afford these pensions any more" because "we have fewer children and higher life expectancy", presuming that GDP growth has obviously been zero for the last 40 years and we just haven't noticed that the money actually is there.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by cbanek on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:49PM (#14328821)
It's not that they don't provide any value, it's that their value isn't competitive anymore.

We could be talking about automation or outsourcing, and it would be the same - labor (especially unskilled) is generally getting cheaper. For outsourcing, there is different labor than us that is benefiting, and that's good. That allows them to prosper and buy food and have a life. We also have robots, which are basically virtual slaves that only benefit their owners.

Overall, you could say that there would be an overabundance of labor then. And we hit this before, with the industrial revolution, and new waves of technology in general. What about all the human telephone operators? Or the candle makers? Maybe it really is different this time. Maybe it's not. Nobody really knows for sure.

It sounds uncompassionate, but these are the same forces that drive down prices so everyone can shop happy at walmart (which I do too). Providing cheaper living is great for everyone as well, and nobody remembers that when talking about fewer people working.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by crdoconnor on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:32PM (#14328742)
"Maybe we should be working on better ways to get the poor educated and integrated with modern society"

So you want an order of magnitude more competition for your own job?

Maybe we should be doing what we did in the 1930s when there was a similar 'surplus of labor' - creating jobs which create valuable public works like LaGuardia or the Lincoln Tunnel instead of pretending that if aggregate demand is weak, it's because everybody already has everything that they need.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by ddingus on Saturday May 13, 2017 @03:08AM (#14329858)
Agreed. And doing that will put a lot of money into demand, which translates into more and better business opportunities.

I visit the great places created by CCC, WPA type efforts and value them, even in their often current state of disrepair.

More please. Worth it.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by nickpsecurity on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:50PM (#14328825)
Many people I know in low-wage jobs have either trade-skill jobs on the side or degrees in things like business (eg finance). The latter say they're under or overqualified for higher-paying position. I got the same overqualified stuff from all kinds of businesses out here, too. The businesses are systematically blocking talent.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by StephenConnell on Friday May 12, 2017 @10:44PM (#14329321)
Blocking talent? Or not in need of the talent offered at the price expected?
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by nickpsecurity on Friday May 12, 2017 @10:47PM (#14329327)
They say they need it. They often do need it to achieve their goals. Then they block everyone that can do it unless they'll do it for a ridiculously low amount. One so low that it seems to result in half-assed results in most IT work that cause them trouble down the line. They just can't afford that $10-20k for real production work.

That said, they can pay someone $1+ mil a year to let the people under him do all the work. Give executives raises. Pay for meetings in expensive hotels that could happen over the phone. Buy lavish furnishings for their buildings. So on and so forth. Don't buy into the idea that most of these companies are ultra-rational actors investing only what they need for the benefit of the company. Lots of politics, gaming the numbers, and people on top trying to move more money their way in most of them.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by StephenConnell on Friday May 12, 2017 @11:20PM (#14329402)
Fair response. I guess it is probably both. Some businesses block, some just do not need the help at the going rate. And some just don't know they need it...
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by nickpsecurity on Friday May 12, 2017 @11:45PM (#14329446)
Yeah, it's a mix. I'm leading more toward block and dont know in your model but I steadily see some overpricing or underselling. Given the social aspects, I occasionally wonder how much underselling factors in where the people with valuable skills arent so good at selling them. That vs the companies' filters being too strong.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by LoSboccacc on Saturday May 13, 2017 @06:45AM (#14330300)
A) most arent uneducated nor lazy

B) them would never compete with those that were on an "educated" job at an earlier age and can bring years experience to a company

C) will drive fields to regulation and red taping because noone likes a massive influx of lower waged competition

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by yjftsjthsd-h on Friday May 12, 2017 @08:02PM (#14328867)
That was not the point. Bluntly, I don't care whether the employee benefits; I, the customer, don't like talking to them and would prefer a machine. Want humans in the loop? Have them do something that they can actually do better than a machine.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by ciconia on Saturday May 13, 2017 @07:02AM (#14330348)
> Honestly, do we really like interacting with the people with minimum wage jobs? Not really.

It's sad how this socially destructive mindset has washed first over the US and then over the rest of the globe. The money religion has won.

I'm lucky to live in the French countryside, where solidarity is still a guiding principle for social interaction. The cinema in the closest town is run by a not-for-profit organisation, and the people who work there are volunteers (and tickets cost 3€ for adults). Likewise, our village feasts, meant to raise money for our small primary school, are organised by volunteers. Everyone contributes according to their abilities for the common good.

I'm not French and have only recently moved here, and I'm really impressed with the way people here take matters in their own hands and create social and economic value by volunteering.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by Chris2048 on Saturday May 13, 2017 @09:37AM (#14330889)
Are the people volunteering to ryn the cinema also desperate immigrants struggling with their paychecks?

If not, you're wondering why the starving don't eat cake.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by mercer on Saturday May 13, 2017 @10:30AM (#14331153)
May I ask where in the countryside (approximately), or more importantly how you got there and also got here? I'm seriously looking into leaving the city life for the first time ever, and I'm curious to hear what others did and what their experience was.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by contras1970 on Friday May 12, 2017 @04:44PM (#14327762)
> Someone in a movie box [...] is practically a useless annoyance > Honestly, do we really like interacting with the people with minimum wage jobs? Not really.

This may not be substantive enough for HN guidelines, but you know what? Ewwwww!

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by ryandrake on Friday May 12, 2017 @06:46PM (#14328546)
> On the other hand, the fancy waiter will make recommendations. Will tell you about other things, and is generally part of the ambiance and experience of eating out.

I don't see the distinction. With all due respect to waitstaff (it's a tough job), the function is just begging for automation. An order-and-payment-taking tablet embedded into the table would be so much more efficient:

1. No need to wait for staff to come by, and then do the whole "drinks then wait, then food then wait" dance. Instead, just present a full page description of the food plus a picture, and an "order" button that you tap. You can even order more later if you'd like, without having to summon a waiter. Done.

2. No need to wait for staff to notice you're done eating and need the check. The total is right on the tablet, and it has a card reader.

That would be great. Would probably cut the entire time suck that is restaurant dining by at least 1/2.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by cbanek on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:27PM (#14328715)
You're basically talking about the "fast casual" dining craze. Like a panera, where you can order and take payment online, or from a tablet there, and they drop the food off when it's ready. Drinks and everything else until you leave are self service.

Pei-wei is another example. These are all the rage because of the efficiency (less wait staff) but still good food and a sit down environment.

The distinction is in expectation. Certain places you expect a waiter, to be seated, brought everything ("fine dining"). The difference between casual dining is mostly the atmosphere (usually better furniture, tablecloth, cutlery, etc) and a waiter (who may or may not be formally dressed).

The fancy waiter is adding value in the second case, because you're looking for that fine dining atmosphere. If it wasn't, they'd probably be going toward iPads too. Instead they have dress codes.

The difference is the waiter doesn't add much to an everyday meal. The waiter could be terrible though. So in terms of a business cost, that's something casual places can skimp on. For a more "fine dining" feel, you need great waitstaff, so that's harder to automate.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by dba7dba on Friday May 12, 2017 @08:25PM (#14328959)
Excuse, did you just say Pei-wei has good food?
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by sqeaky on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:06PM (#14328623)
What you are describing would be great for chain restaurants like Chile's or Olive Garden, but for something sufficiently high end the people involved really matter. If you shift your view up a few notches there are many places where real intelligence and dynamicness is required that we can't yet automated.

Having a wine expert or a unique expert chef as part of the experience is part of high end dining. Consider one of those mid to high end Japanese steak houses where there they throw shrimp across the room into someone's mouth. Or a more midwestern steakhouse where you can talk with a person who butchered the steak. Or one of the new microbreweries where can can talk with the brewer about some new experiment has has and look at the brewing equipment right there. None of these make sense to automate, until we get strong AI.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by rubber_duck on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:43PM (#14328795)
Figuring out suggestions based on preferences and given choices with so constrained options is an easy problem.

The "expert" is there to sell you a story. Not that there's anything wrong with that - the story is a part of the experience that many people like - but let's not pretend it's a technical problem that's difficult to solve.

I know a bunch of people who work in that buisines (my brother is a chef, gradeschool friend as well, ex. is a restaurant waiter, met a bunch of their co-workers, all worked in Michelin star restaurants etc.) what actually goes on vs what the customer hears ...

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by majormajor on Friday May 12, 2017 @11:56PM (#14329472)
> Figuring out suggestions based on preferences and given choices with so constrained options is an easy problem.

Then why do Spotify and Netflix et al persist in identifying artists and songs I've heard of (because of obvious similarities to stuff I like) but have actively ignored (because of any of a number of reasons that don't boil down well into an algorithm), over and over and over again?

I still don't want to watch The Office, Netflix. I won't in another six months, either.

But I could tell a person why not, and they could factor that into their recommendations. It's like the difference between trusting Waze and trusting a local that says "even though the app says go another half mile then turn right, turning right here is way easier, since if you wait you'll have to then quickly make your way across three lanes of traffic in a hundred yards to make your left, and making the right here gives you more time to get over."

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by rubber_duck on Sunday May 14, 2017 @05:15AM (#14334879)
Different scale/complexity. You could hand-code waiters decision tree for recommendations and the possible choices end in ~hundreds. Personalized music suggestion has to pick from millions of choices and there's no straightforward algorithm behind it.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by bcassedy on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:53PM (#14328834)
Chili's is already starting down this path. At the location near me you can order drinks and pay through a device at the table. They haven't jumped in all the way as food orders are still through a server.

Though, as someone who has had a credit card stolen via gas pump several times, I'm really hesitant to use a card at one of these devices. They're probably not very secure to begin with and then you couple that with the fact that anyone can sit with one of them for an hour or so with no scrutiny, it's just ripe for exploit.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by dahdum on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:01PM (#14328608)
What you described seemed pretty common when I visited Japan. For those in the Bay Area a Japanese chain Yayoi opened in Cupertino and Palo Alto.

You order entirely on the iPad. You do have to pay at the desk on your way out, but they just type in your table number you pay with Square. No tipping allowed so it feels so smooth and simple.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by morgosmaci on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:18PM (#14328673)
And then with out any human interaction, the tablet asks politely for a 20% tip... I wonder if the tablet makes less than minimum wage too.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by robryan on Saturday May 13, 2017 @12:18AM (#14329511)
In my experience with these tablet ordering restaurants I suspect that they will also make the restaurant more money.

Often it is too hard to get a waiters attention to make multiple small additions after they have been around to take orders. With the tablet there is no barrier to you adding an extra drink or side.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by abecedarius on Friday May 12, 2017 @10:42PM (#14329314)
More accessible to the hard of hearing, too. I hope this model takes off.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by adamsea on Friday May 12, 2017 @04:22PM (#14327566)
You kinda missed the whole point of the OP, which was, if people don't add value to a business, how will said valueless people put food on the table and participate in society?
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by lordlimecat on Friday May 12, 2017 @05:52PM (#14328232)
The same way we have every time an industry has disappeared in the past: by participating in the newly opened industries.

Is it rough when (for example) shipping crates put a bunch of longshoremen out of a job, when they are in their 50s and too old to easily retrain? Sure. But how many people now not only enjoy (as customers) the benefits that Amazon provides, but also enjoy the employment benefits of a massively expanded global market?

On the other hand, the alternatives are harsher: as the population grows and people resist the very innovation that could create new markets, unemployment will grow. For all the problems we have in the US, providing low unemployment is not one.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by loup-vaillant on Friday May 12, 2017 @06:41PM (#14328516)
You're looking at it with past-tinted glasses. This time is different, and the market won't solve it.

Those newly opened industries have less people in them than the industries they replace. Mostly because our consumption doesn't increase as much as our efficiency does.

Funny you mention Amazon. We enjoy their services, and they enjoy that expanded global market. And they do this by killing local businesses with their ruthless efficiency. (Remember we're supposed to be competitive. There will be winners and there will be losers.) They don't create nearly enough jobs to compensate for the unemployment they cause.

There's also the problem of skill. For instance, in 20 years, truck drivers will be gone. Instead, we'll have an operator managing a fleet of 50 trucks from some control centre. The rest will have to find something else. But what exactly? The low skill jobs will be even scarcer than they are now, and the high skill jobs will be taken up by people who enjoyed a higher education in the first place, as they are now. You could still raise the level of education, but that will be too late for those drivers.

Keep this up to its logical (and absurd) conclusion, and half the population will starve to death in the streets. They're useless, why the market would support them? Of course, we'll have cleaner robots wipe it all away, cleansing the stench of death —those who still have value will be able to enjoy their walk in the park undisturbed.

More realistically though, we'll have a revolution before we get to this point. Or, the rich and powerful will see it coming, and start giving bread and games to the people. Come to think of it, they already do it to some extent.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by qub1t on Saturday May 13, 2017 @01:51AM (#14329708)
50 years ago, who would have thought of search engine optimization as a job? Social media manager? Video game storyline writer?

I'm not saying that people who are displaced will easily be able to retrain to a new job. They will have a rough time, and that's something we need to address as a society.

But assuming that number of "jobs" for humans will decrease to zero is a big stretch. I think that even if we had robots that could take care of all our needs for us, humans would come up with jobs to occupy their time.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by loup-vaillant on Saturday May 13, 2017 @06:54AM (#14330323)
> But assuming that number of "jobs" for humans will decrease to zero is a big stretch.

It seems to me the amount of available work is steadily decreasing right now. Perhaps not towards zero, but we don't have to lose that much to need substantial reform. Once you reach over 30% unemployment, you have a big problem already.

There's an easy way to increase the number of jobs though: share the existing ones by reducing the work-week. We could start by shaving off a few hours, perhaps as much as a full day (for a 4 day work-week). Then decrease it further to match progress in automation. Of course, we should keep the salaries at the same levels, lest machine owners will just get a bigger and bigger share of the pie, just because they had starting capital the other workers didn't.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by taway_1212 on Saturday May 13, 2017 @06:26AM (#14330254)
All the jobs you've listed are white collar and require a probably at least above average intelligence. The high school dropout you remember from your childhood (the one who sniffed glue and never completely comprehended basic fractions) is not going to be a video game story writer. Once he got his issues in order, he made for a good truck driver though, and was a valuable member of society. I'm afraid it won't be so in the future.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by ebiester on Friday May 12, 2017 @06:29PM (#14328447)
50% of the population have an IQ below 100. 16ish percent have an IQ below 85. What are they going to do?

We've already essentially phased out the useful work that people under IQ 70 can do. It's likely that it's creeped up to 75 or 80, even. As these are automated, let's creep it up to 90.

It also takes out those who are poor and have no branch on which to gain experience for their first job. If we have eliminated the first jobs for all but the most talented and those with connections, what does a somewhat bright poor student do?

Well, it used to be they got a job, proved themselves, and worked their way up. Now, what do they do when they don't have the social capital to get to the point where they can work up?

What are these newly opened industries that will work with these people?

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by freshhawk on Saturday May 13, 2017 @01:03AM (#14329596)
> What are these newly opened industries that will work with these people?

As far as I can tell, it's "magic future ones" and the evidence for these statements is "because I hope that's what happens".

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by fooza on Saturday May 13, 2017 @08:24AM (#14330601)
Food delivery service for one. Startups like uber eats and foodora give jobs to people who like to ride fast on bikes, bike deliveries existed before in major cities but not like this.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by freshhawk on Saturday May 13, 2017 @09:17AM (#14330799)
So a short term sharecropping job that barely pays you enough to survive with no path for advancement and you soon get replaced by driverless cars?

If that really is the best answer then it's time to invest in guillotine manufacturers.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by Animats on Saturday May 13, 2017 @02:25AM (#14329767)
That's the real issue. But you're not supposed to say that.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by coldtea on Friday May 12, 2017 @05:23PM (#14328059)
If many of those people don't have money to "put food on the table and participate in society" who will be able to pay any business for anything?
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by hn_throwaway_99 on Friday May 12, 2017 @05:42PM (#14328174)
People who can participate (those with the skills necessary to manage more complex systems as he states in his blog post).

The scary part is it looks like wealth will be increasingly concentrated, and more and more people will fall to a level where what we consider basic needs in modern society (food, shelter, education and health care) will no longer be attainable. As the author points out, "it will be messy": Those societies usually don't end well.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by coldtea on Friday May 12, 2017 @05:46PM (#14328200)
>People who can participate

A diminishing pool of people to pay for stuff, not only hurts businesses profits, but also diminishes the pool of rich people (who make their money off of selling products, houses, services, etc to the masses).

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by wu-ikkyu on Friday May 12, 2017 @05:43PM (#14328181)
Bingo! If humans are continually replaced by robots without being given an income subsidized by the benefits of automation, in the long run, the robots will have to be shut down because the humans can longer pay for the products!
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by sqeaky on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:17PM (#14328670)
You are missing a great deal of suffering in the middle. Decent hard working people can start dying long before the robots must shut down.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by Turing_Machine on Friday May 12, 2017 @09:36PM (#14329171)
"On the other hand, the fancy waiter will make recommendations. "

The fancy waiter will recommend whatever the owner of the restaurant wants him to recommend, because that is his actual job. He is employed to maximize the dollar value of food and liquor sold.

Now, there are limits to this. A good restauranteur isn't going to sell you inedible crap, and a good waiter isn't going to recommend it, because that will hurt the restaurant's long-term profitability (and in the short term, probably result in a bad tip for the waiter).

Nonetheless, it's wise to keep in mind that the waiter is working for the restaurant, not you.

If you have any friends who've worked in fancy restaurants, ask them about some of the strategies waiters use to encourage a large bill (and thus, a large tip).

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by tedmiston on Saturday May 13, 2017 @04:39PM (#14332886)
> The fancy waiter will recommend whatever the owner of the restaurant wants him to recommend, because that is his actual job. He is employed to maximize the dollar value of food and liquor sold.

This is a limited way of looking at the value of a waiter — I think this is a common misconception. A good waiter knows to listen to what you want and make recommendations based on that. Anytime a waiter recommends mostly or only the most expensive things, I trust them less and they lose the potential to be a great waiter even if the service is otherwise good.

The waiter is not really working for the restaurant because the amount of their pay that comes from the restaurant directly is very low. In a restaurant with tips that comprises most of the waiter's income, and since the amount you tip is voluntary, really the server is working for the customer to earn a good tip.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by choward on Friday May 12, 2017 @04:26PM (#14327595)
> On the other hand, the fancy waiter will make recommendations. Will tell you about other things, and is generally part of the ambiance and experience of eating out.

I only need the waiter to tell me this because I have no idea what the food with end up looking like. Just put pictures of items on the menu. Problem solved. Now it get to order what looks best.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by goatherders on Friday May 12, 2017 @05:26PM (#14328083)
Good grief. Ordering food by appearance is like deciding music is good because the artist has purple hair or a painting is beautiful because the canvas smells like cotton.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by waqf on Friday May 12, 2017 @05:54PM (#14328249)
Please enlighten us with your wisdom as to what reasons for liking a piece of art are acceptable, and what reasons are unacceptable.

To put it another way, when you walked into the restaurant you committed to paying a premium for one sensory experience or another. Why not the visual?

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by omginternets on Friday May 12, 2017 @06:29PM (#14328448)
I think his point is that there's more to food than the way it appears in a picture, and a human being can add a lot of insight into the selection process.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by fra on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:10PM (#14328643)
For some restaurants, unveiling the food is a big part of the experience and photos would ruin a lot of the fun. E.g. Atelier Crenn in SF
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by darpa_escapee on Friday May 12, 2017 @03:35PM (#14327172)
> Someone in a movie box isn't going to tell you about the movie, or have a conversation about it with you. They are there to take the most basic info (movie, time) and money, and give you a ticket. It's also always done thru a thick bit of glass that makes communication sometimes difficult if not painful.

This has not been my experience at all. People who work at theaters get discounted, if not free, tickets to movies and have often watched the featured movies themselves. They get to see how often people walk out, ask for a refund or praise a film. They can relate to your tastes and make recommendations based off of them. They can tell you if a movie isn't a great date flick and suggest another.

> Honestly, do we really like interacting with the people with minimum wage jobs? Not really. Most people seem to prefer the automated checkout, ordering on their phone, etc.

Speak for yourself. There is nothing more aggravating to me than self-checkout, it is slow, it is often buggy and I don't like having to scan, punch in codes and bag things myself. I hate having to wait for a manager's approval to apply a coupon or finish checkout because the machine decided I did something wrong and won't let me fix it.

Hell is having $20 a machine won't accept.

I prefer being able to speak with the people who are going to submit or prepare my order, because I can ask questions or customize what I want. I cannot do that with an app or touch screen menu.

> Most of these people also are not thrilled about their jobs and be lazy, or do a bad job

Again, speak for your own experiences.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by Frondo on Friday May 12, 2017 @08:04PM (#14328878)
"Speak for yourself. There is nothing more aggravating to me than self-checkout, it is slow, ... "

Oh, man. I never use the self-checkout. It's part of the invisible work movement--stuff someone used to be paid to do for you, now you do yourself. Same thing with pumping your own gas. I miss Oregon, for how there was always someone to pump your gas for you. Is gas cheaper here in Washington, where you have to do it yourself? Nope. Invisible work. Screw that.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by SuperPaintMan on Saturday May 13, 2017 @02:53AM (#14329824)
Same, there's a group of Co-ops in Canada here. They do everything from gas to groceries, financial to hardware and other services. The profits are put back into the community and members of its programs receive payouts when they turn a profit.

The only reason I'm a Co-op member? Customer service. They pump my gas, are helpful in store, the workers are paid fairly and members of my community, managers understanding even do grocery delivery at a loss. Hell my buddy can manage a store and provide for his family as opposed to scraping by.

Kind of tangential to OPs post, but I'm getting disillusioned and sick of watching community funds get transferred away to accounts somewhere else. Fuck that, I'll pay the slight premium.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by taway_1212 on Saturday May 13, 2017 @06:34AM (#14330268)
Huh? The pumping is automated, all you need to do is place the nooze and push a button? It seems crazy (like 5-star hotel level of service crazy) to have people in full time employment to do just that.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by darpa_escapee on Saturday May 13, 2017 @09:47PM (#14333819)
If you live in an area where it gets cold, hot, or it rains or snows, the service is invaluable. If you haven't grown accustom to the convenience of not having to leave your car and saving time, you might not understand.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by darpa_escapee on Saturday May 13, 2017 @12:25AM (#14329528)
Having become used to having gas pumped for me and cheap gas, it's a pain travelling where I have to pay a premium and pump it myself.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by DougBTX on Friday May 12, 2017 @04:39PM (#14327723)
> This has not been my experience at all.

FWIW it matches my experience. I can't think of a time I've gone to the cinema not already knowing which film I'm there to see, so it wouldn't cross my mind to ask for recommendations.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by sqeaky on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:23PM (#14328698)
Dealing with unhappy minimum wage workers seems to be the default to me as well. My theater experience sounds like yours. As for minimum wage cashiers, I would rather use the self checkout.

Most cashiers can't be bothered to puts things like eggs anywhere except directly under gallons of juice. I am not trying to beat them up, most are clearly hard working and decent people. But they are people who are being replaced by more efficient, cheaper an more reliable machines. Except for the part where I have to bag my own eggs, but I won't crush them, because I paid for them.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by mikekchar on Saturday May 13, 2017 @05:33AM (#14330132)
On the other hand, I live in Japan -- land of vending machines. I often have a choice between going to a convenience store or getting the exact same thing from a vending machine. I go to the convenience store and I do enjoy talking to the person there if they aren't too busy.

Obviously not everybody will be like that (I suspect I'm turning into one of those "old people" for whom they manage to keep the bank teller windows open for a few hours a day...) But I just want to point out that this isn't as straight forward as it seems. And, if my suspicion is true, with an ageing population society may actually swing in the direction where they prefer more human contact than less in their every day lives.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by irrational on Friday May 12, 2017 @06:42PM (#14328520)
I know what you are saying, but I can't help wondering where teenagers will get their initial job experience if most minimum wage jobs go away.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by Sir_Substance on Friday May 12, 2017 @06:45PM (#14328541)
>Honestly, do we really like interacting with the people with minimum wage jobs?

You're naive if you think this will only impact minimum wage jobs. Paying humans is usually about 30-50% of a companies operating expenses. With less humans you can shave even more percentages off by reducing office space or insurance premiums of applicable.

This might be starting with robot barista arms manipulating coffee machines, but it's really quickly going to make it to lab workers manipulating samples. Where it goes from there depends more on the software than the hardware, but it's really not a stretch to assume that shortly after we replace truckers, we're going to replace pilots and sea captains as well.

We're racing towards a decision. We can allow the automated cargo ships that will soon manage all global trade to be owned by a small cabal, or we can nationalize these systems and use the value they create to support our most disadvantaged populations.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by ryanwaggoner on Friday May 12, 2017 @06:57PM (#14328598)
Flight crews and ship crews will be enhanced by automation, thus reducing those jobs, but they won't be replaced completely. The liability, safety, and economics situations are completely different from drivers. The cost of a crew to ferry an oil tanker around the world is a rounding error. The cost of two pilots on your flight is similar, and in both cases, you want someone there when things go wrong anyway.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by js8 on Saturday May 13, 2017 @05:44AM (#14330149)
> One of them is practically a useless annoyance, and the other one is part of the experience.

You make an interesting point, and I want to remark to it - this is why I don't think the problem is just automation, but in fact social inequality. You can always employ people to take care of a small, privileged class of people.

The extent to which society does this is completely cultural choice. I heard of comparison, in Brazil, several procents of households have a maid (or multiple), where in Sweden, less than half percent of households have one.

Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by ensignavenger on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:52PM (#14328829)
While I agree with your statement on the movie theatre ticket counter, I would say that I enjoy talking to the cashier at walmart. I usually ask how they are doing, I might ask about their name if it is an interesting name, or complement them on something. Some cashiers end up being short and don't seem to want to talk, but I often have great interactions. Granted, Walmart pays more than minimum wage, but I don't think it matters.
Re:Guaranteed Minimum What? by cbanek on Friday May 12, 2017 @08:00PM (#14328863)
I think it does, actually. In-N-Out burger pays more than minimum wage, and I'd say it's some of the best customer service at a fast food place. Paying that bit more means they can be choosy and pick the best people.