News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Music theory for nerds by analog31 on Sunday September 18, 2016 @10:41PM (#12528457)
This has got to be some of the worst jargon and notation for anything, ever.

Indeed. I'm a musician, and something non-musicians often ask (especially techies, it seems) is why we use such an archaic notation system.

The reason is simply that a certain number of musicians have developed the skill of sight reading which is the ability to perform a composition directly from a written sheet, with little or no rehearsal. Those players, myself included, can't quite explain how we do it, and aren't going to learn a new notation system.

Re:Music theory for nerds by SwellJoe on Monday September 19, 2016 @02:08AM (#12529318)
It's not merely sight reading that relies on the existing notation, jargon, and theory.

Every element of Western music builds on the same building blocks. Western harmony, as taught, relies on understanding chromatic and diatonic harmony; the author did a nice job figuring out and explaining the compromises inherent in equal temperament (without knowing about how ratios and tuning worked before equal temperament; people didn't always fudge the ratios to make them work out the same across all keys), which is cool. But, he still doesn't actually know much about western musical harmony, as evidenced by the assertion that C Major and A minor are "the same", because they share a key signature and the same notes. Had he known that equal temperament is a moden-ish invention, he might have also figured that C Major and A minor actually have (slightly) different notes if your instrument is tuned specifically for that key rather than with equal temperament.

In short, he's just not done learning yet. Most musicians and composers never really are, as it is a vast subject. And, what he's calling "music theory" is really more "equal temperament tuning math" with very little theory.

Not to say it's not interesting and well-presented. It may be useful for non-musical nerds to see it presented in this way.

Re:Music theory for nerds by 112233 on Monday September 19, 2016 @03:08AM (#12529529)
Very important historical details that are missing completely from all music theory textbooks I have had the misfortune to read. They only give the rules, without explaining the reasons. Also, imagine using notation to write down, say, electonic music. Drums? Maybe, but which notation? Filters, effects? ugh
Re:Music theory for nerds by hiddenkrypt on Monday September 19, 2016 @11:22AM (#12532103)
As a percussionist, yes, musical notation is used for drums. However, it ends up looking rather like a step sequencer with some standard notational effects (staccato/legato, rests or varying lengths instead of the absence of markings, etc.) This helped me out quite a bit later when I started getting into digital music.
Re:Music theory for nerds by vintermann on Monday September 19, 2016 @06:30AM (#12530253)
I did learn to sight-sing in high-school with a lot of effort (but I sucked at sight-reading on my main instrument, the piano) and I agree with the article writer.

When you read these sentences, you can very easily speak them out loud, you don't have to mouth each and every vowel to hear it in your head. This is not the case for music notation, even for very experienced musicians. The clue is that they associate notes not with sounds or intervals, but with absolute positions (fingerings, etc.) on their instrument. Maybe they can sight-read a melody with a little effort, but for most of them it will be much simpler to just play it - and this goes triple if it's not tonal and idiomatic for a style you know. Music notation is really a somewhat instrument-independent tabulature.

Solfege or numeric notation systems, which exist in many versions, are much better for reading in your head once you learn them. They're terrific for singers. But for instrumentalists, usually your instrument is already biased to certain keys, and going from notation->sound in your head->fingers would therefore be much harder than going straight from notation->fingers.

Re:Music theory for nerds by analog31 on Monday September 19, 2016 @08:30AM (#12530865)
This is true for me. I can go from notation to my fingers, faster than I can go from notation to singing a tune. It's a hyper specialized skill. I can sight-read treble clef on flute, and bass clef on the double bass, but it's hard for me to sight-read treble clef music on the double bass, even though the transposition of a couple octaves is no problem at all.
Re:Music theory for nerds by meggar on Monday September 19, 2016 @08:54AM (#12531020)
You can almost guess what instrument the composer played because of that bias. If you see a violin piece with 6 flats, it's a pretty good guess that the composer didn't play violin.
Re:Music theory for nerds by bhrgunatha on Sunday September 18, 2016 @11:47PM (#12528729)
> The reason is simply that a certain number of musicians have developed the skill of sight reading ...

It's moer than just that though. The inertia to overcome also includes pretty much all sheet music ever printed, all the schools that have adopted the current system, all the educational materials... etc. etc. the list goes on.

In addition to all of that, the new system needs to convey most of (if not all) the information that the current system has. I have seen a few attempts at improvement, but they all fell short of the current system, which let's face it has been in development for several hundred years.

Re:Music theory for nerds by BurningFrog on Monday September 19, 2016 @01:08AM (#12529089)
Once we get off printed paper, computerized notes should solve much of the inertia. problem

Displaying a song in whatever notation the musician/reader prefers should be as simple as setting a preference on your hyperPad.

That still leaves the difficult task of figuring out better notations, but it can be done incrementally. You don't need to convert the whole world or the entire notation at once.

Re:Music theory for nerds by jlebar on Monday September 19, 2016 @01:37AM (#12529198)
> Once we get off printed paper, computerized notes should solve much of the inertia. problem

I don't know...ebooks still look a lot like treebooks.

The one example I've seen of what you're describing is I've seen jazz musicians play off ipads. This give them access to very large catalogs without lugging around giant binders, and also they can transpose their sheets into any key.

(That's more important than it might sound at first, because different instruments "play" in different keys -- if a pianist thinks the piece is in C major, the clarinetist thinks the piece is in Bb major. So now you don't have to have separate books for the different instruments in the band.)

But the music as written down in these electronic fakebooks is a lot less complex than your average classical piece, so it's a much more tractable problem.

Re:Music theory for nerds by analog31 on Monday September 19, 2016 @08:27AM (#12530836)
I have those electronic materials. They come in two varieties. There's something called iRealB, which contains thousands of tunes, but is just chord changes due to a quirk of copyright law -- the melody and lyrics are copyrighted but not the harmony. That's the one where you can transpose tunes. But you don't get the melody.

Then there are large PDFs where somebody ran the old paper fake books through a scanner, but they are just images and are not in an actual computer readable format, so they can't be transposed.

So the computer has not solved the notation problem, yet.

Myself, I've memorized most of the standard jazz repertoire.

In fact I suspect that most of the written music repertoire that exists today will never be translated into computer readable form, because it's just too much work. And not enough new music is being composed to form a critical mass around some new notation system or computer format. When somebody composes a tune (I play in one band that does original jazz compositions), they send out a PDF.

Maybe software will eventually automate the process reliably enough to be useful.

Re:Music theory for nerds by Gravityloss on Monday September 19, 2016 @10:44AM (#12531796)
Notation would tend to be one of the easiest things for which to develop automatic recognition / parsing?
Re:Music theory for nerds by analog31 on Monday September 19, 2016 @11:48AM (#12532325)
It should be, but there's the problem of demand. Somebody has to be motivated to do it, meaning that they are probably equally passionate about music and image analysis.

Also, a lot of the written stuff is handwritten, not typeset. So it's a subset of the handwriting recognition problem.

It's pretty bad for the bassist, since the bass part is usually the second to last part to be copied, meaning that the copyist was probably drunk. ;-)

Re:Music theory for nerds by zhemao on Monday September 19, 2016 @01:57PM (#12533300)
Just a nitpick, but the transposition is the other way around. Concert B flat is C for B flat instruments.
Re:Music theory for nerds by jlebar on Monday September 19, 2016 @02:17PM (#12533461)
Argh. In my defense, I play a C instrument. :)
Re:Music theory for nerds by andrepd on Sunday September 18, 2016 @10:53PM (#12528505)
>why we use such an archaic notation system.

The answer is, because it works, and nobody has managed to propose a better one.

Re:Music theory for nerds by pdkl95 on Sunday September 18, 2016 @11:22PM (#12528635)
> nobody has managed to propose a better one

A new notation system will need to be a lot better to justify the change, because there is also a lot of value in compatibility with everything that already exists.

I'm not sure a sufficiently better system exists, because as you say, the traditional notation works. It has its quirks and rough corners, but music is complicated enough that any system would probably have similar imperfections.

Re:Music theory for nerds by hardmath123 on Sunday September 18, 2016 @11:05PM (#12528567)
One attempt was Hummingbird. http://www.hummingbirdnotation.com
Re:Music theory for nerds by ludston on Sunday September 18, 2016 @11:30PM (#12528661)
Which in durations are represented spacially, which in my opinion has two negative effects.

The first is that spacial recognition takes more effort than symbol recognition, because it's comparative.

The second, and more important being that complex sequences of notes will be very dense on the page, and simple sequences of notes will take up a lot of space on the page, so suddenly there is a tradeoff between having sheet music that doesn't take 10 pages, and having enough space to represent hemi-demi-semiquaver sequences when they inevitably appear somewhere.

Re:Music theory for nerds by Ericson2314 on Monday September 19, 2016 @12:36AM (#12528950)
Yeah wtf. Like I don't think current notation is perfect by any means (and I am a PLer, I love new representations) but this and every other replacement I've seen blatantly sucks. ....As with so many things, know what your disrupting!

[In this case, I'd like to say go apprentice engraving if you are 100% serious.]

Re:Music theory for nerds by clentaminator on Monday September 19, 2016 @05:17AM (#12529991)
With Hummingbird's inclusion of a trailing line as part of the indicator of note duration you also have to read ahead in the score and then jump back if you want to use the trailing line to identify the duration, which is a lot harder than just identifying by local information in the form of a set of note tails and whether or not a note is filled in. While there are additional parts to the glyphs for half and whole notes, these aren't the dominant part of the symbol.

Another question is whether or not the length of a trailing line is absolute or relative to the bar itself.

On the subject of filled notes, Hummingbird is also conveying a lot of information that for performance of a score is useless. Note letters (A-G) aren't actually important for performance, only the action or position that they map to for each instrument. No musician parses a score and translates each note to a letter and then each letter to an action, instead going directly from note to action.

Essentially, telling you the note letter with a glyph shape on top of the position on the stave is adding noise to the signal.

I'll admit I'm coming at it from a position where I'm perfectly comfortable with traditional notation, so part of the reason that it appears difficult is simply because it's unfamiliar, however the terseness of traditional notation and ability to read in one "parse" without forward- and back-skipping seems to give it the advantage.

That and over 300 years of existing music, too ;)

Re:Music theory for nerds by acid__ on Monday September 19, 2016 @02:00AM (#12529283)
Your second point seems pretty valid, and to address your first point:

"There are multiple cues to the same information. Everything has both a symbol and spatial element, for all kinds of thinkers."

Indeed, in addition to the spatial length of the notes, there is also a symbol next to the notes denoting their life. You can see this on the linked page, in the second section. (Next to "Intuitive.")

Re:Music theory for nerds by efnx on Monday September 19, 2016 @12:06AM (#12528799)
Try writing hummingbird notation by hand though!
Re:Music theory for nerds by mikestew on Monday September 19, 2016 @12:24PM (#12532589)
Their pages claims: "It’s quick and easy enough to write with an unsharpened pencil. You can scrawl it on a napkin in a pinch."

I don't know if it's true or not, as I view Hummingbird to be fixing things that aren't broken (is the difference between a whole note and a half that hard to suss?) and doesn't fix the things that are.

Re:Music theory for nerds by taco_emoji on Monday September 19, 2016 @01:16PM (#12532988)
I think the more difficult part writing by hand would be the redundancies -- not only do I have to know which line to put the note on, I have to know which symbol to draw. Which could be tough, as it forces the composer to be consciously aware that e.g. "this note is D#" rather than "this note should be two steps above the previous note in the current key".
Re:Music theory for nerds by Ericson2314 on Monday September 19, 2016 @12:37AM (#12528953)
The thing I most want to change is how time signatures are notated: I'd like to specify branching factor all the way down the rhythm tree.
Re:Music theory for nerds by spiralganglion on Monday September 19, 2016 @01:08AM (#12529085)
That works, and would be an improvement, so long as your rhythms are based on constant integer subdivisions.

It's possible (and fun) to play music where the rhythmic structure changes smoothly and continuously. But it's bloody impossible to notate and very difficult to orally communicate, so music cultures that depend on notation or oral communication have left this territory largely unexplored.

The handful of classical composers that have attempted this (Steve Reich, Brian Current, etc) have either abandoned western notation (Reich) or hacked on their own bespoke glyphs with their own situation-specific explanations (Current).

Electronic musicians can easily explore this space by writing their own software (Autechre, your humble author, etc). When your musicians are mechanical, you can explore all sorts of otherwise impractical permutations of theory.

Most delightful, though, are the non-western cultures that communicate musical ideas entirely without written notation or spoken language, and instead communicate musical ideas through play (Indonesian Gamelan, Australian Aborigines, etc). You get the ineffable human qualities that make music most beautiful, and the freedom to explore structural spaces that are difficult to capture with discrete/unitized/quantized notation and language.

Re:Music theory for nerds by ludston on Monday September 19, 2016 @01:36AM (#12529196)
> But it's bloody impossible to notate and very difficult to orally communicate

It's really easy to orally communicate. You can just sing it!

(I know what you mean, is it's difficult to describe using a computer keyboard. Using a pen and paper it is really easy, given that you can just draw notes and time signature changes in the margin.)

Re:Music theory for nerds by ktRolster on Monday September 19, 2016 @12:43AM (#12528978)
I'd like to specify branching factor all the way down the rhythm tree.

I'm not really sure what this means, but it sounds interesting.

Re:Music theory for nerds by Ericson2314 on Monday September 19, 2016 @08:25AM (#12530818)
By default the next note is half as long as the previous. But sometimes that's inconvenient. For example 9/8 is usually 3-3-2-2-2-2-2-2-2... A bar is devided into 3 dotted quarters and a dotted quarter into 3 8ths, and anything further down is split in half as is normal.
Re:Music theory for nerds by ktRolster on Monday September 19, 2016 @11:21AM (#12532100)
Oh that sounds great, but very difficult to read/play
Re:Music theory for nerds by Ericson2314 on Monday September 19, 2016 @06:37PM (#12535354)
Sometimes when there's a bunch of triplets the editor will just write "simile" and drop the triplet notation.

This could work like that and only the time signature would need a brand new notation, so no I don't think it would be super hard to read.

Re:Music theory for nerds by ktRolster on Monday September 19, 2016 @11:38PM (#12536859)
Triplets are tough to play haha
Re:Music theory for nerds by stephenboyd on Monday September 19, 2016 @02:46AM (#12529460)
And then most musicians will have to learn both notation systems.
Re:Music theory for nerds by ajuc on Monday September 19, 2016 @10:09AM (#12531554)
Have you played with trackers?

2d grid, time is down, instruments(channels) are right, each cell can have a note or "stop this channel". There also can be modifiers in each cell (louder, start tremolo, slide this note into the next, etc).

It's most applicable to keyboard music, I think. Sight-reading this without rehaersal would be trivial, right?

https://www.dosbox.com/wiki/images/3/3a/ScreenShot004.gif

Re:Music theory for nerds by analog31 on Monday September 19, 2016 @11:43AM (#12532282)
For better or worse, the only way to guess if this notation can be sight-read, is for someone to train themselves to do it. And to make matters worse, learning to sight-read for adults is so hard that it's virtually prohibitive. Every musician I know who can sight-read fluently, learned it as a kid.

So it's virtually impossible to try out a new notation system.

But my impression is that this would be phenomenally hard to read, especially in a live performance situation where your attention is divided between the sheet music and other stuff. If I were staring at a solid grid of text, and were to glance away for a split second, I'd be lost. Part of sight-reading for me is being able to read ahead by a few notes or even a few bars.

It may also be that conventional notation displays a lot more density on a single page, because a 16th note takes up no more space than a whole note.

Re:Music theory for nerds by soundwave106 on Monday September 19, 2016 @11:10AM (#12532007)
The main problem I can see with that sort of system is that it probably would get quite unwieldy for decently complex chord patterns (try scoring a chord pattern up the keyboard, say, like what's at the beginning of Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto 1 for a start -- http://imslp.org/wiki/File:PMLP02744-Tchaikovsky-Op23v1FSmuz...).

For other styles I think it would be pretty good; although the score won't be as compact, it might be easier to understand a "fake book" scored piece (ala what's used a lot in jazz) written this way, let alone pop (which often can be represented with a melody line and Roman numeral chords).

Re:Music theory for nerds by BurningFrog on Sunday September 18, 2016 @11:20PM (#12528627)
It's a lot like why the QWERTY keyboard remains dominant.
Re:Music theory for nerds by PeCaN on Monday September 19, 2016 @12:33AM (#12528938)
Yeah, it would be really hard to change all the millions of documents written with QWERTY.
Re:Music theory for nerds by 0xCMP on Monday September 19, 2016 @01:30AM (#12529174)
It'd still probably be hard to convert thousands of existing computer keyboards to anything else. Every keyboard at every school, office, home, etc.
Re:Music theory for nerds by taco_emoji on Monday September 19, 2016 @01:28PM (#12533074)
And it'd be harder still to convert billions of existing people to another layout. Inertia's hard to overcome, even if another keyboard layout or music notation system had ever been convincingly proven superior than the respective dominant ones.
Re:Music theory for nerds by lohankin on Monday September 19, 2016 @12:29AM (#12528916)
No, it's not the same. Current music notation is a result of long evolution, unlike QWERTY. Try to invent usable alternative - then you will appreciate the convenience of current notation.
Re:Music theory for nerds by ccozan on Monday September 19, 2016 @05:20AM (#12530008)
What are you talking there? Qwerty is indeed not that old as the musical notation but it is ~150 years old, and it was invented for the typing machines in order to avoid jams, so it does have some history and evolution [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTY

Re:Music theory for nerds by shiro on Monday September 19, 2016 @08:41AM (#12530931)
"In order to avoid jams" is a popular story but it's credibility has been challenged [1]. It may be worth noted that Qwerty was made before people used all fingers and touch-typed---they were likely to use just two fingers and typing speed might be quite slow in today's standard.

[1] http://gizmodo.com/qwertys-origin-story-is-a-big-fat-lie-493... (This is just a first one I found in English, but Prof. Yasuoka referred in the article publishes quite a few articles about early typewriters in Japanese, in which he lists several evidences that "jamming" wasn't the reason.)

Re:Music theory for nerds by chillingeffect on Monday September 19, 2016 @11:19AM (#12532078)
This has got to be some of the worst jargon and notation for anything, ever.

I'd like to argue that as inefficient as it seems, it's really a reflection of how broad and complex music actually is. This notation and organization system is all a perspective or reference to take when actually trying to comprehend/play music. It's not a fixed set of rules and there are exceptions everywhere.

It's one of those systems where you learn the rules only to know when you're breaking them. So by all means learn to do this, but don't get hung up on real-life deviations.

It actually works well for people performing together, especially when led by a conductor.

Re:Music theory for nerds by 3chelon on Monday September 19, 2016 @07:23AM (#12530450)
I think you sum it up pretty well. As a techie who has never understood music, and who is fascinated by watching my own kids learn and understand music theory (something I was never exposed to as a child), I found this an interesting article.

Clearly history, culture, notation and reproduction technology have all conspired to produce a certain flawed, but accepted, jargon that you just have to bite the bullet and learn. If we could start again using colours, numbers, augmented reality, etc., then it seems obvious we could come up with a better system, but that would be tantamount to proscribing a new alphabet, or telling everyone to start using base-16.

Re:Music theory for nerds by zeta0134 on Sunday September 18, 2016 @11:08PM (#12528578)
I can sight read for winds and voice, but not for Piano, despite being able to play Piano relatively well. Thus, this explanation will probably apply mostly to single-voice musicians.

1. Find Do. This is the first note of the Major scale in the key which you are playing. Find it on the page, and burn it into your mind; everything you're about to do centers on the location of Do. In the key of C (white keys on a piano) Do is right in the middle of the grand staves, keeping things simple. If you know where Do is, you don't have to care about the key signature for like 97% of the notes you're going to read, and you can make educated guesses about what the sharps and flats do by using your musical intuition. Once you've found Do on the page, figure out where Do is musically, and keep it in your head. Make sure that when you're singing or playing any other note, you know where you are relative to Do, and can jump back there without losing your place.

2. Learn your intervals, and learn Solfege. If you're a musician, you already know these things in principal, even if you don't know the words or the terminology. In particular, you should be able to "hear" the distance between Do-Mi-Sol without too much difficulty, because you hear those distances in music a lot.

3. When you're sight reading the first note in a passage, find the note, then step it off visually to the nearest Do. If you're good, you can also step it off to the nearest Sol. I usually root myself on Do and Sol both in a given passage, as it gives me less visual separation between any note I need to find in a hurry.

4. For every note after that first note, pay mind to the spacing on the page:

4a. Moving up and down the scale should be easy; you're a musician, you already know what a scale sounds like, just sing along.

4b. Moving up or down from one line to the next line is a third. Most often you'll hear these relative to Do-Mi-So-Ti in major keys, and La-Do-Mi in minor keys. You'll hear these a lot, so get used to reading them quickly.

4c. Get a good feel for common jumps while you're at it. As a Bass singer, I got really good at reading jumps between Do-Fa and Do-So, because those chord progressions exist in everything, and their sole purpose in life is to make bass singers bored out of their mind. You're a human, in addition to a musician, so you'll pick up on the patterns in any given composition and have the common tricks down before you even realize what your brain is doing. Don't question that, let your brain be awesome all on its own.

That sounds like a lot of steps, until you realize that you're performing most of them already to make sense of any piece of music that you play. Don't worry about the names or the terminology, you can use numbers (1-3-5) if that's easier, or just "hear" it if you don't feel like you need an aide. Remember, the goal is to drop the aide and be able to just perform these steps on your own eventually.

I'm analytical in nature, so I'm always thinking about these things. I suspect the reason most musicians can't describe this process very well is because the process of analyzing our craft detracts from the quality of its output. The more you can commit to "muscle memory" as a musician, the more you can pull your analytical mind out of the process of a performance, the easier it becomes. Your body's built in reflexes are faster than your analytical brain will ever be, and good musicians tap into that biological strength through loads of practice.

Re:Music theory for nerds by SwellJoe on Monday September 19, 2016 @02:14AM (#12529348)
"2. Learn your intervals, and learn Solfege. If you're a musician, you already know these things in principal, even if you don't know the words or the terminology. In particular, you should be able to "hear" the distance between Do-Mi-Sol without too much difficulty, because you hear those distances in music a lot."

I believe the Solfege named intervals (Do-Re-Mi-Fa-So-La-Ti-Do) are only taught as a historical oddity these days (or maybe used more in classical training?). All of my musical instruction, at the high school and college level, used numeric interval names (1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8). Most of the serious musicians I've played with also used the numeric scale rather than Do-Re-Mi. We learned how to sing Do-Re-Mi, "Just in case", but we never used it.

Were you taught in the US, or somewhere else? Maybe it is a regional thing.

Re:Music theory for nerds by zeta0134 on Monday September 19, 2016 @01:26PM (#12533060)
I was taught in the US, and Solfege was used prominently in my voice classes, but rarely in my theory and piano classes. I think it's a system that works well when you don't have to think about the actual note name that you're singing, as it describes intervals very well, but relates somewhat poorly to pitch.

I grew up attending a Church of Christ, which used full congregational singing with four part harmony. Our songbooks used a variation on music notation that used shape notes, and the shapes corresponded to Solfege. If you knew your musical intervals, you could completley ignore the key signature, because a Do was always drawn as a triangle, a Sol was a circle, a La was a square, etc etc. This was especially handy because the song leaders were always men, and could not always sing as high as the written music required. They picked whatever key they could sing comfortably, and the congregation adjusted to them. Drove the music majors in the audience nuts. :D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_note

Growing up with that system meant that Solfege was simply the easiest system I had to understand music. To this day, I struggle with pieces in unusual modes, and with passages that modulate their key and make use of unusual progressions, because it breaks down my innate understanding of music and requires me to think in a different way.

Re:Music theory for nerds by SwellJoe on Monday September 19, 2016 @03:05PM (#12533864)
Shape note seems really clever! But, I can also see where it would break down in many cases. I learned music predominantly in a Jazz context. That'd be very tricky to use for jazz...especially the various modal types of jazz.
Re:Music theory for nerds by eric_bullington on Monday September 19, 2016 @11:06AM (#12531962)
Solfege/solfège is still used prominently in France, or at least it was ~25 years ago. I took music lessons when I lived in France as a teenager. My piano instructor was very confused by the fact that I spoke good French, was at a solid intermediate level at the piano, and yet I could not at all follow his solfège commands (like you say, I had only used numeric intervals back home, although teachers usually called the note by its alphabetic name, like most here I think).

I tried reviewing in my head each week before class what I remembered from the Sound of Music, but made the mistake of thinking that Do-Re-Mi etc. was a static C-D-E instead of realizing that my music instructor was simply describing intervals depending on the key we were in.

In the present day, I would just look it up online, but back in 1991, in a small city in northern France, I didn't have that privilege. It took me several months of twice-weekly instruction before I finally figured out that he was using solfège for intervals, I'm embarrassed to say (to my instructor's frustration and confusion). I'm wincing even now when I think of it.

I asked around at the time and was told it was pretty universal to use solfège there.

I do think using solfège to indicate notes is a much better system for students, since it emphasizes the importance of intervals and keys. It's probably harder at the beginning that just learning static A-B-etc., but worth it.

Re:Music theory for nerds by coreyp_1 on Monday September 19, 2016 @02:32AM (#12529399)
Solfege is definitely still in strong use, especially in public school choirs. They are convinced that it helps in sight-reading competitions (yes, sight reading is one of several areas in which a choir can compete).

Having said that, I absolutely hate solfege. But my bachelor's was in piano performance, not vocal.

Interesting note: quite a few countries use a "fixed Do" system rather than "A-B-C". It is quite confusing (and humorous to observe) when a solfege disciple tries to sing with a fixed Do native.

Re:Music theory for nerds by SwellJoe on Monday September 19, 2016 @11:39AM (#12532239)
Fixed Do sounds awful! I just spent some bit of time reading the wiki on Solfege, as I realized I have a limited view of it. Interestingly, there are additional syllables beyond the 7 I learned! There are also syllables for flattened and raised notes, which is really nice. I have always been bugged by saying "flat three" or "minor three" when singing intervals, and it's hard to make the voice actually make it minor (for me) because of the muscle memory for three being so firmly set.

So, I may have to somewhat rethink my dismissal of the solfege, at least for singing intervals. Unless there's a secret system for singing with intervals by number that accommodates accidentals.

Re:Music theory for nerds by lmm on Monday September 19, 2016 @04:29AM (#12529821)
As a computery person, what bothers me the most is the 1-based indexing of intervals. I get that music theory predates zero, but it makes it incredibly frustrating to work with (e.g. add a third to a fourth and you get a... sixth).
Re:Music theory for nerds by SwellJoe on Monday September 19, 2016 @10:40AM (#12531761)
When do you need to do math like that with intervals?

As a computer nerd myself, I can understand the argument for 0-based indexing in this case, but I don't recall ever being stumped by it being 1-based. When would you need to add a 3rd and a 4th to get a 6th? Harmonic theory doesn't use addition like that. e.g., playing a 6th is not the same as playing a third and a fourth. So, why do that kind of math with intervals?

Re:Music theory for nerds by lmm on Monday September 19, 2016 @10:54AM (#12531869)
Whenever you play three notes in sequence, no? I'll read a passage and think "tonic, up a third, up a fifth so that puts me up to the tonic again... nope."
Re:Music theory for nerds by SwellJoe on Monday September 19, 2016 @11:18AM (#12532073)
Huh. That's interesting. In a "people's brains think surprisingly differently sometimes and we rarely think about those differences when the resulting behaviors look the same" kinda way.

I mean, I guess that's not so foreign...But, I tend to think of it as pulling out the notes I need from the scale, and not actually counting up to them. e.g. in my brain I'm grabbing the third and the octave (well 7th, if you've got a third and then the fifth of that third, which I guess is why you're preferring 0-based) that are already there...not climbing up them to find there's the tonic there. I mean, I can see that it's a fifth interval if I go from E to B (in C), but unless I'm building a chord on E, I don't care..it's either the 7 in C, and I'm not so much thinking of its relation to E as I play it, and it's a phrase in C, with maybe an Em chord (either implicit or explicit) underneath; or I'm playing jazz, or some other very chord-based music, and I want my phrase to be relative to the chord we're currently playing (so we're inside that Em, and the key is less relevant).

Sight reading is different, as well, in my brain, but, I think it even bypasses the intervals to some degree and is just distances and shapes and an awareness of the key I'm in. I don't read much these days, but I recall it working best (or at least fastest and most accurately) when most of the theory was turned off in my brain and I just let the shape of the notes (their distance from each other) guide me. But, I feel like it's only in improvising and composition where one would be doing any sort of interval math. But, maybe I'm wrong.

When are you doing this kind of math? When reading, improvising, playing memorized pieces, or composing?

Re:Music theory for nerds by lmm on Monday September 19, 2016 @12:42PM (#12532747)
The main context I was thinking of was learning a new piece, particularly the initial read-through of something I haven't heard - I sometimes try to think what it "should" sound like ahead of playing it.
Re:Music theory for nerds by jacobolus on Monday September 19, 2016 @07:02AM (#12530369)
> (e.g. add a third to a fourth and you get a... sixth)

Better:

In equal temperament, log base two: add 4/12 to 5/12 and you get 9/12.

In ratios (depending on tuning, these could be loose approximations): multiply 5/4 by 4/3 and you get 5/3.

Re:Music theory for nerds by lmm on Monday September 19, 2016 @08:30AM (#12530866)
Yes, I know. But having the log base 2^(1/7)-ish built in is useful. If we could just subtract 1 from all the numbers (i.e. what we call a fifth should be 4) then we would have a measure that actually made sense.
Re:Music theory for nerds by jacobolus on Monday September 19, 2016 @03:27PM (#12534011)
Eh. Calling it a “fifth” is making it clear that the label is an ordinal number: first second third fourth fifth ...

You need to think of it as “if the bottom note was the first note of a scale, where in the scale would the top note be?”

As with many questions of indexing, off by one errors are tricky.

It’s a system that confuses names for notes in a scale with names for intervals between notes. You’d rather they called them by cardinal numbers representing some kind of “distance”, instead of a count starting at one.

But that would be applying a later mathematical understanding on the earlier system. If that’s what you want, you should just use a log scale and count twelfth roots of two.

Ideally we’d switch all our indexing to start at zero, and use half-open intervals everywhere. Start at 0 AD, call the ground floor of a building “0”, start spreadsheets with row 0, switch Matlab to index from 0, et cetera. This is pretty unlikely to happen though.

Re:Music theory for nerds by lmm on Monday September 19, 2016 @03:39PM (#12534093)
> If that’s what you want, you should just use a log scale and count twelfth roots of two.

I don't want to count in twelfths, I want to count up the scale.

> call the ground floor of a building “0”

I'm a Brit, we do that here already.

Re:Music theory for nerds by jacobolus on Monday September 19, 2016 @04:35PM (#12534482)
The intervals in a 7-note scale inherently don’t add up like that, because they’re not based on even divisions. So regardless we need to have 12 different named intervals for various numbers of semitones:

For instance, “minor second”, “major second”, “minor third”, “major third”, “perfect fourth”, “augmented fourth”, “perfect fifth”, “minor sixth”, “major sixth”, “minor seventh”, “major seventh”, “octave”.

Reducing all those ordinal numbers by one really doesn’t help all that much. You still have to remember how the “minor” and “major” labels interact for every interval in the scale, and remember that sometimes the interval between the same two notes is given multiple names depending on the key, etc., which is all horribly confusing mess.

Re:Music theory for nerds by lmm on Monday September 19, 2016 @04:45PM (#12534536)
> Reducing all those ordinal numbers by one really doesn’t help all that much. You still have to remember how the “minor” and “major” labels interact for every interval in the scale, which is a horribly confusing mess.

Those interactions are pretty intuitive. Where defined, major + minor = perfect (considering an octave as perfect), perfect + major/minor = major/minor. As long as you remember which notes exist, you can't get it wrong, so you'll never get confused by a piece of arithmetic in an actual piece.

Re:Music theory for nerds by jacobolus on Monday September 19, 2016 @06:05PM (#12535158)
They’re not remotely “intuitive”. They only make sense to someone with years of training.

If instead you used digits from –5 to 6, using arithmetic mod 12, it becomes obvious that e.g.:

  -2 + -3 = -5
  4 + 3 = -5
  5 + 5 = -2
  -5 + -1 = 6
  4 + -3 = 1
  etc.
The “perfect” intervals are just ±5 (ratios very close to 3:2 and 4:3). The “major” intervals are –3, –1, 2, 4 (approx. ratios of 5:3, 15:8, 9:8, 5:4). The “minor” intervals are –4, –2, 1, 3 (approx. ratios of 8:5, 16:9, 16:15, 6:5).

Then it’s easy to see that your “major + minor = perfect” formula only works for some intervals, Etc. Overall the simple heuristics are more obfuscatory than helpful IMO.

Re:Music theory for nerds by lmm on Tuesday September 20, 2016 @04:43AM (#12538029)
> Then it’s easy to see that your “major + minor = perfect” formula only works for some intervals, Etc.

Where does it go wrong? Do those cases come up in practice?

Counting up and down the scale is a core use case for a notation for intervals. It absolutely needs to be well-supported. A 12-semitone approach is never going to match the usability of even the existing system.

Re:Music theory for nerds by komponisto on Tuesday September 20, 2016 @05:05AM (#12538116)
>A 12-semitone approach is never going to match the usability of even the existing system

I am obliged to point out that a 12-semitone approach is in fact part of the "existing system" (see: pitch-class set theory).

(Mind you, I of course think its usefulness is overrated, because I think the "atonal" repertory is tonal.)

Re:Music theory for nerds by theOnliest on Monday September 19, 2016 @09:31AM (#12531268)
Nearly all aural skills classes (learning to hear/sing music) for music majors use solfege or something like it. Some people use scale degree numbers instead (so a IV chord in a major key is "4-6-1" rather than "fa-la-do"), but the concept is still very useful.
Re:Music theory for nerds by SwellJoe on Monday September 19, 2016 @10:55AM (#12531878)
What I'm questioning is the popularity of Solfege vs numeric interval names.

My music classes of ~20 years ago treated Solfege as being of historic interest, but not particularly common. While numeric intervals were used daily. It came up somewhat more in sight singing and vocal training than in any of the instrument or theory oriented classes. But, I think it was mostly students who were used to it using it rather than instructors teaching it.

But, maybe I just so strongly preferred numbers that I immediately discarded any instruction involving Solfege as being silly and a waste of my time.

Still, I can only recall seeing numbers (and Roman numerals) in writings on theory and such.

Re:Music theory for nerds by theOnliest on Monday September 19, 2016 @11:04AM (#12531946)
Fair enough. It's still pretty common...it's hard to pin down any numbers exactly, but I'd guess it's probably half and half for solfege vs. other systems. We teach solfege at my school (although I prefer numbers myself). And you're right that it's used mostly in sight-singing/aural-skills classes; I mention solfege much less often in my written theory classes.
Re:Music theory for nerds by fenomas on Monday September 19, 2016 @05:31AM (#12530053)
Exact opposite for me. I learned do-re-me as a kid and then ever saw it again, until I started reading about music theory recently. Then I saw it a lot - e.g. voice leading rules saying that a voice must start from Do and end on a ti-do step, etc.
Re:Music theory for nerds by nicky0 on Monday September 19, 2016 @02:54AM (#12529487)
Doesn't everyone learn Do-Re-Mi from "The Sound Of Music"?
Re:Music theory for nerds by SwellJoe on Monday September 19, 2016 @05:13PM (#12534773)
Well, sure, but what's that got to do with actual music instruction and how musicians talk about music? Movies aren't always entirely accurate representations of the world, particularly on highly technical topics.

Knowing solfege because you heard it in a movie and using it on a daily basis in the process of teaching or making music are independent concepts.

Anyway, conversation here has brought it to my attention that it is still pretty common, there are some areas where it is useful (maybe even better than numbers, as in the singing and vocal training area; I personally have recognized the limitation of numbers when singing minor notes, for example), and that my own experience was only partly representative of music pedagogy in the US and elsewhere. That said, when I'm teaching people about music, I still plan to only use numbers...the areas where solfege would be useful are pretty advanced, and require more than watching Sound of Music to understand.

Re:Music theory for nerds by princeb on Sunday September 18, 2016 @11:21PM (#12528629)
> 2. Learn your intervals

> 4c. Get a good feel for common jumps

i think that's why the current system works so well. most musicians have intervals burned into their muscles. to use an excel reference, reading R1C1 from the staves is much faster than reading A1, because you can read R1C1 from any line in the staves.

Re:Music theory for nerds by shabbyrobe on Sunday September 18, 2016 @10:49PM (#12528484)
Sounds like vim!
Re:Music theory for nerds by mettamage on Monday September 19, 2016 @12:12AM (#12528831)
Sounds like... And is it? ;)

In terminal run vimtutor. The sound will change.

Does anyone know of a similar tutor for sheet music?