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Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by MBCook on Friday August 12, 2016 @11:48AM (#12276582)
I was watching Digital Foundry's video explaining some of the technology behind the game last night and the same basic thing struck me.

They created all these cool worlds and new animals and you can fly between worlds! The harvesting resources doesn't really bother me, that's common in games.

But how do you harvest resources? You shoot it with a laser gun. You shoot the environment. You shoot the animals. They flop around.

Why does everything have to include shooting? Why not some other mechanic that doesn't look like 'killing' everything. Even if the gun just had sort of a cone like beam instead of the generic laser that seems to explode things it would feel different.

Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by JulianMorrison on Friday August 12, 2016 @12:10PM (#12276737)
Mostly, gun interfaces are popular because a gun in its crudest form is simple to control. Its operating controls are (1) point in a direction (2) press fire.
Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by MBCook on Friday August 12, 2016 @03:30PM (#12278154)
Ture, but as I said they could make it look different and explain it differently.

It just sort of feels like people come up with cool new ideas for worlds for games, and then slap a gun/FPS interface on it because it's well understood and some sort of default.

They put so much thought into making No Man's Sky.... except using a weapon as the main interface.

Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by arprocter on Friday August 12, 2016 @01:38PM (#12277375)
As the old joke goes 'guns - the original point and click adventure!'
Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by wlesieutre on Friday August 12, 2016 @12:18PM (#12276812)
I remember a webcomic about this trope in a game many years ago. Interaction with the world was via hitting things with a sword. Last panel culminated with the character knitting a sweater (by hitting it with a sword), IIRC.

No luck finding it again.

Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by TheOtherHobbes on Friday August 12, 2016 @12:00PM (#12276660)
To be fair, a game that included (say) developing new forms of consciousness and levelling up the entire civilisation after contact with aliens would have been a bit harder to bring to market.
Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by soneca on Friday August 12, 2016 @12:03PM (#12276684)
Well, Civilization included alternative ways of creating a dominating society: war, trade/diplomacy, technology. And this was in favor of fun! You had diversity in strategic decisions, you had to consider different approachs to a problem.
Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by mrec on Friday August 12, 2016 @12:59PM (#12277108)
Yup. Quite a few sneak-em-ups and multiparadigm first-person games offer mostly- or wholly- pacifist routes through too - Thief, Deus Ex, Dishonored etc.
Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by night815 on Friday August 12, 2016 @12:09PM (#12276734)
That sounds like an awesome first expansion!
Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by greggyb on Friday August 12, 2016 @05:54PM (#12279063)
As I recall, Spore wasn't the biggest hit.
Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by tvanantwerp on Friday August 12, 2016 @12:27PM (#12276887)
I dare not estimate the minutes (hours?) of my life I've wasted while my Skyrim character hit the ground with a pickaxe or chopped some wood. Many games suffer from additional realism. A magic space gun that mines resources sounds just fine for a video game world.
Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by drzaiusapelord on Friday August 12, 2016 @12:08PM (#12276728)
Probably because its cheap/easy to animate and code. I suspect NMS is something of a con by Sony and Hello Games, where we're presented with what's supposed to be a AAA game that costs $60, but is in fact an indie game that should sell for about $20. Thus all the corner cutting, lack of hand-made content, and Spore-like complaints.

Imagine if Minecraft was initially partnered up with EA and sold for $60 instead of staying indie and having a modest pricing scheme. That's exactly what's going on with NMS.

Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by minimaxir on Friday August 12, 2016 @12:16PM (#12276792)
There's nothing wrong with charging 3x product worth if people are willing to pay for it, which was the case as NMS sold out at retailers.

Granted, the backlash would be much less if the game was priced apropriately, and it's likely that the game will have weaker legs now that more information is known about it.

Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by arprocter on Friday August 12, 2016 @01:01PM (#12277126)
I'm not sure about this 'it should cost x amount' argument.

Even if someone only got 10 hours of play from the game it cost them 6 bucks per hour - the day after launch I was reading about people who stayed up exploring all night and didn't even leave their starting planet

Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by MBCook on Friday August 12, 2016 @03:36PM (#12278190)
If you switched the tool you have to look like something than a laser gun, the effect to not look like a loser beam, and changed the documentation to refer to it that way (I honestly don't know what the game calls it) how much more would that cost for a AAA title?

A few thousand? Twenty thousand with all the languages? How many millions did the game take?

It would never triple the price of the game.

Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by tkvtkvtkvtkv on Friday August 12, 2016 @12:12PM (#12276766)
lack of imagination. People generally only imagine variations of things they've recently seen and since most computer games are FPS (copied all the way back to Doom and before) that's what they do. People just copy what they've seen before.
Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by elthran on Friday August 12, 2016 @12:26PM (#12276873)
> since most computer games are FPS

I definitely would like to see some evidence to support this - if you have any.

Yes, FPS is massively popular, but there is also a massive amount of less known titles that are not FPS games

Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by tkvtkvtkvtkv on Friday August 12, 2016 @12:59PM (#12277107)
sorry yes I meant the most popular games are FPS
Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by jerf on Friday August 12, 2016 @12:26PM (#12276881)
"Why does everything have to include shooting?"

The core problem is that for all the games look pretty in graphical terms, they've got major fundamental limitations in other ways.

One of the biggest is that you don't have hands. You have a laser pointer and perhaps even several dozen verbs for that laser pointer, but no hands. You can not pick up two things and do anything useful with them like you can in the real world. We can navigate around in 3D environments OK, but we have terrible interaction with them. Shooting is not the only thing that we have, but once you start seeing how limited the palette is, it becomes obvious that it's one of the more popular choices for a reason. In fact, even "melee" combat, under the hood, is generally "shooting" with a short range and an animation utterly disconnected from the underlying mechanics, hence things like the silliness of swinging your sword cleanly through someone's torso, something that in the real world would cleave them in twain, for zero damage. See also the absurdity of what passed for "speech" in games, as you attempt one of the most complicated activities there is by pointing with a laser pointer and grunting at what you want to "say".

You have no significant AI, so while No Man's Sky may have world upon world of fantastic-looking creatures, you can't do much of anything with them. You can't pet them. You can't raise them. You sure as hell can't communicate with them. What else are you going to do but point a laser pointer at them and grunt? And what other grunts are there that are of any value other than "Shoot"? The advantage shooting has is that both damage and death are relatively easy to make the target respond to. (Death in particular; once animated once you don't even have to animate on an ongoing basis.) Yes, you can come up with some other options, but they tend to peter out fast.

So, basically, you can't interact with the world very richly, and the world can't even correctly respond to those limited interactions. The graphics in modern games deceive you. By being nearly realistic they convince a good chunk of your brain that the game must be realistic. But the graphics are not representative of what's really going on; instead they are the bizarrely advanced spike sticking out above a landscape of much more modest design means. You've got games where the landscapes are almost photorealistic, but your ability to "speak" is walking up to a person and tapping them, which we saw 30+ years ago.

While I credit No Man's Sky for making it to release where many of its peers have had significant trouble making it that far, I've never been excited about it, because I've already played the "big universe of nothing much to do" game with things like Frontier: Elite II. Unfortunately, what procedural generation tends to produce is the stuff that was already easy in the first place. Writing a story that transcends the manifest limitations of the medium, or writing tight levels that require you to exploit certain mechanics, or creating creative puzzles based on a slowly-increasing set of mechanics, and so on, that's the hard stuff.

I'm not saying nobody will have fun, or that it's a bad game, or that you shouldn't try it. I'm saying that these limitations are pretty fundamental to the medium, and whenever somebody promises implicitly or explicitly to overcome them, you should be really skeptical. There's a long, long line of this sort of thing, Black and White, Spore, Fable, endless lines of procedurally generated games, things that even if the end result was not always "bad" are things that could not transcend the limitations of the medium.

Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by outworlder on Friday August 12, 2016 @02:03PM (#12277551)
It's interesting that you have mentioned Black & White. You have a creature that you can pet and train. Frankly, that creature is way more interesting than the rest of the game put together.

I still have fond memories of my brother trying to teach the creature to pick up rocks, and then throw them. The intention was to bombard the other villages.

Training it to pick up was easy. Leash it, pick up the rock in front of it, repeat. Put the rock next to it. Did it pick it up? If so, pet it. Repeat.

Getting it to throw the rock was more involved. Even after watching my brother doing it, the creature would pick up the rock, then put it down again. He must have spent at least half an hour trying.

Then, all of a sudden, the creature starts throwing rocks! Success! Well, except that it was also picking up feces. And throwing them. And picking up friendly villagers, and throwing them. Repeatedly.

That was the funniest thing I've seen in a game, by far. That, and watching my brother scolding the creature for the behavior.

The underlying creature model appears to have been somewhat simplistic. Creature needs were manually coded with first order logic. Not sure how training was actually done, but it was unlikely to be too complicated.

Now, more than a decade later, one should expect one "creature" that's even more advanced, specially considering the renewed interest in AI. Or that the creatures that one encounters in an RPG to be at least as advanced as the B&W one. Instead, they are not actually much more advanced than Pacman ghosts, no matter how pretty they look.

Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by jerf on Friday August 12, 2016 @02:35PM (#12277780)
"The underlying creature model appears to have been somewhat simplistic. Creature needs were manually coded with first order logic. Not sure how training was actually done, but it was unlikely to be too complicated."

Black and White was one of the reasons I tried to carefully write that so it was clear that not all the things I listed were "bad". What I recall is that Black and White failed its promises; the creature is nowhere near as smart as what was promised. But many people still had fun with the game that resulted.

I find the failures of AI are often quite entertaining; they have a different character of failure than other sorts. I also frequently enjoy the errors that word-based AI makes, because there's often some bizarre, twisted sense behind it that our brains can pick up on and enjoy. Markov Chain babble generators are the simplest example of that, but the serious work can generate a lot of great stuff too.

Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by MBCook on Friday August 12, 2016 @03:34PM (#12278178)
I get that 'point and shoot', as an interface, works very well. I have no qualms with that. But why does it look like a gun that destroys things? They could make it seem more like a Tricorder from Star Trek (that doesn't emit a laser beam that blows things up) and it would make a big tonal difference.

I'm amazed at what they accomplished. My issue here is more of a graphic choice. Why does the thing you use to kill and animal to defend yourself look exactly like the thing you use to harvest plants for resources look exactly like the thing you use to destroy terrain?

It feels almost like it was just assumed and no one ever thought about it.

Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by minimaxir on Friday August 12, 2016 @12:04PM (#12276695)
The precursor for No Man's Sky is Minecraft, which utilizes Axes/Picks to collect resources/fight enemies. I don't think there's much difference between using a melee weapon and a ranged weapon for the genre.
Re:No Man’s Sky’s biggest thematic problem, explained in fou... by staffordrj on Friday August 12, 2016 @12:28PM (#12276896)
Very relevant Ron Gilbert comic (gunshot sound warning) http://grumpygamer.com/grumpy_comic_5