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Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by Analemma_ on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:20AM (#11970419)
Here's a Leave fellow who says he just did it as a protest vote thinking it wouldn't actually pass. https://twitter.com/AdamWSweeney/status/746269140915208193 I don't know whether to laugh or cry. The most important international agreement in the UK's history torn up because people thought this was a Buzzfeed poll.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:22AM (#11970441)
That reminds me of certain American voters saying they support Trump just because they want to tear the system down. I don't think they realize what tearing the system down would actually mean.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by avs733 on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:23AM (#11970447)
I can say with confidence that it might mean the government stays out of their medicare /s
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by ars on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:38AM (#11970600)
I get the joke, but after having dealt with them, I would personally love it if the government got out of medicare.

Just give everyone a voucher and let them buy their own health insurance using it.

The amount of paperwork, and details to keep track of and calculate was absolutely unreal. I have BOXES full of paper from medicare, there was so much I could barely keep up.

The worst was the arcane and utterly confusing rules on eligibility: if this, or if that, or you live here, or there, for these dates, and that deadline. I felt like I needed an AI just to figure it all out (and in hindsight my understanding was completely wrong, and I chose the wrong option).

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by njloof on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:23PM (#11971042)
By contrast, the paperwork I do (as a client) under Canadian single payer Medicare is nil, and my supplementary insurance (vision/dental) can be filled out online in minutes.

Sounds like you need a better system in the US. Maybe not so many different stakeholders in the system?

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by ars on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:07PM (#11971527)
That's how it works for commercial plans. Very easy, simple paperwork.

They have to compete with each other, if they were confusing no one would sign up.

> Sounds like you need a better system in the US.

It does work for most people, it's the edge cases that fail.

> Maybe not so many different stakeholders in the system?

Making medicare normal would require much higher taxes (medicare/medicaid hospital payments are below costs and are subsidized by commercial plans). People would then save money on commercial plans.

Net dollars would not change, or maybe go down, but the distribution would change, some winners, some losers.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by stephenr on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:24PM (#11971052)
Americans always seem to just assume that because their unique way of doing <thing> doesn't work, <thing> is unworkable and should be abandoned, usually in a "let the corporations fix it" kind of way.

- Banking regulations

- government backed healthcare

- gun control

- education system

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by badsock on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:58PM (#11971441)
Seriously, I don't think they realize that most of their problems with government are actually problems with just their government, which from an outsiders perspective seems very poorly run.

They outspend nearly everyone on public health and education and yet still have outcomes in the lower half of the developed world for what those programs are supposed to address. And instead of actually owning up to the poor outcomes and trying to fix them they just blame blacks and latinos for pulling down the average.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by shanusmagnus on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:24PM (#11971062)
Medicare pricing structure are heavily subsidized [indirectly] by commercial insurance plans -- this is one of the reason many providers hate taking Medicare patients. If the govt. just gave people vouchers and the Medicare system dissolved, those people would receive much less care (measured in dollars of care consumed per dollar of insurance purchased.)

That might be a good idea. In fact, it is very likely a good idea, for some global notion of 'good.' But people on Medicare would be, shall we say, vocal in their complaint.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by ars on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:03PM (#11971495)
That would have other benefits. The reason health insurance in the US is so expensive and complicated is exactly because of how commercial plans fund medicare.

If we stopped doing that hospitals could publish actual prices for procedures - same price for everybody, insurance or not. Then people could actually shop around and healthcare costs would drop.

But today prices have to be secret and impossible to understand or the way commercial plans fund medicare would collapse.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by shanusmagnus on Monday June 27, 2016 @11:06AM (#11986612)
The expense and complication is due to many, many more factors than how commercial plans fund Medicare. Medicare could disappear entirely and the price transparency you describe would not change one iota. They are largely orthogonal issues.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by brewdad on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:21PM (#11971034)
Sounds a lot like private insurance.

Handing out "free" money has worked so well for higher education. How will vouchers solve the problem of skyrocketing health care costs?

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by lgas on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:39AM (#11970624)
Actually as long as you include that "it might" part in there, you can say anything with confidence.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by fomojola on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:33AM (#11970553)
Not sure if you're being facetious, but Medicare IS the government, you do realize this? Medicare isn't some magical, mythical creature that existed from the dawn of time and has always been there: it is explicitly a creation of the government (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States))
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikestew on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:43AM (#11970664)
Not sure if you're being facetious, but Medicare IS the government

And parent even used the sarcasm tag. :-) Parent doesn't need it explained, but some American citizens apparently do: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/prescription...

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:36AM (#11970583)
They're mocking people who protested with signs like "Keep government out of my medicare!" during the debate over Obamacare.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by avs733 on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:39AM (#11970615)
note the /s
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by LanceH on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:24AM (#11970456)
Yea, only the other side has idiots voting for them.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by burkaman on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:33AM (#11970556)
"Certain american voters", not the whole "other side". I'm sure most Trump voters actually want him to be president, but I've heard a few people say "oh I'm sure he'll get impeached within a year or two, I just want to shake up the establishment".
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:34AM (#11970566)
I originally posted the comment without "certain" and then immediately went back and added it, because I was afraid someone would think I was referring to all Trump supporters without it. Apparently it didn't work anyway.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by LanceH on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:50AM (#11970738)
I didn't think you or anyone else thinks it's all. But so much of news coverage (and forum arguments) are about the fringe elements which are basically nothing more than strawmen.

Saying that there are some people ignorant of what they are voting for is not news. Stating that one side has ignorant voters carries implications that the other side is correct and right thinking.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:52AM (#11970753)
This whole story is about people who are ignorant of what they are voting for.

"Stating that one side has ignorant voters carries implications that the other side is correct and right thinking."

No it doesn't. Why would you say that? I can't even.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:32AM (#11970543)
Never said it was only that side. I consider myself an independent and while I view the Democrats more favorably, I'm not positively inclined towards either party nor either voter base. Don't read things that aren't there.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by rayiner on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:23AM (#11970451)
What would it mean?
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by raisedbyninjas on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:50AM (#11970740)
After dismantling the last superpower, a whole spectrum of things could happen. The assumption is that whatever rises from the ashes just by chance is better than the system that has been refined and mostly thrived for two centuries. Of course there is no assurance that we won't be left with a mix of anarchy and warlords.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:33AM (#11970559)
Death, destruction, anarchy, civil war.

Not that I think Trump will bring that. The office of President is not that important. But I'm talking about what a certain set of voters says they want, not what will actually happen if they vote that way.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by eumoria on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:25AM (#11970464)
...joining the EU?
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by chongli on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:27AM (#11970488)
When you're in an abusive relationship it's always harder to pack up and leave than it is to stay. You've gotta do it though, because the long term consequences of living with your abuser are unacceptable.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by simplyluke on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:29AM (#11970505)
Of course, we're talking about one of the largest/most functional nations in the history of the world not domestic abuse.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by cool_penguins on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:36AM (#11970579)
Most people in the US don't know how good they have it and what it means to be under a true abusive and police state.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:43AM (#11970661)
I think a big chunk of Americans almost want it to be a police state, so they have something to fight against.

It makes me think of Sam Altman's recent article about Trump. He said he was taking some risk by writing that, and some commenters here praised his bravery in taking a public stand on this. It's ridiculous. Bravery would be a prominent techie taking a stand for Trump. He's not going to suffer any consequences for publishing that. Nobody's going to knock on his door and haul him off at 3AM, or deny him entrance into any organizations, or even shoot him dirty looks on the street.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by meric on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:17PM (#11970979)
I got some really bad looks in my office building when some people overheard me telling a colleague I rather Clinton lose than Trump lose, due to her preference for fighting wars. One person looked at me like if they could kill me, he would, like I was some enemy. A lot of anti-Trump people accuse Trump supporters of bigotry and exclusion, but I think that's projection on their part.

No, I don't feel comfortable writing this comment. For the record, I don't like Clinton or Trump. But it's better for the rest of the world for Clinton to lose.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by scrollaway on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:40PM (#11971224)
> I think that's projection on their part

I'm sorry, what? You can certainly call it prejudice. There's plenty of trump supporters who aren't bigots, but there's also a lot of them who are, and Trump's campaign has been majorly based on demagoguery, bigotism and xenophobia.

If you're voicing/implying support for someone whose campaign is built on racism, don't be surprised if you're getting dirty looks.

As for dirty looks, that's what they are. You're accusing "the other side" of projection when you yourself are interpreting a look as "I want to kill you". Jeez.

Edit:

> But it's better for the rest of the world for Clinton to lose.

I appreciate the conendrum the US is facing in this election cycle, but if you're going to make decisions based on their worldwide implications, you should ask around in the rest of the world. Clinton is an inconsequential establishment politician; Trump is a loose cannon who "won't rule out using nukes in Europe". As someone living in said Europe, I really wonder how you got to that conclusion.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by meric on Friday June 24, 2016 @10:01PM (#11974835)
They are both very egoistic and unsuitable as presidents. One of them has a strong history of deliberate action fanning the flames of war which has led to the current refugee situation in Europe, notwithstanding the hundreds of thousands killed and millions displaced, the other talks about building walls and keeping people out of the country, instead of interfering with people out of the country, plus some BS talk about nukes and Mexicans. Guaranteed warmonger or probable asshole? I choose the latter. But really, they are both horrible choices so in the end it doesn't mean much to have the 'better' one win. Why do people have strong emotional responses to people having different preferences?

And you weren't with me to see that look. It was incredibly hostile. No I don't think he literally wanted to kill me, but he had the same look as a person who would. (From movies)

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by dpark on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:51PM (#11971361)
> * I rather Clinton lose than Trump lose, due to her preference for fighting wars*

Trump publicly stated his support for the Iraq war during an interview in 2002. He's since backpedaled claiming that he was against it "before it started" but all indications are that he was, at most, neutral on the war before it started (being against the war after it starts is kind of irrelevant).

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/19/donald-trump...

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/02/donald-trump-and-the-iraq-w...

> A lot of anti-Trump people accuse Trump supporters of bigotry and exclusion, but I think that's projection on their part.

A lot of Trump supporters are really good at ignoring the obvious terrible things about Trump and his campaign and latching onto the one or two things they like about him. You can't honestly claim that there is no bigotry or exclusion in Trump's campaigning. He's called for a ban on Muslims entering the country. He's called for building a huge wall along the Mexican border and deporting 11 million immigrants. Plus, you know, the "rapists and murderers" comment about Mexicans entering the US.

If you think that Trump is the better candidate in spite of his obvious shortcomings, you should have the honesty to say so, rather than pretend his shortcomings aren't real.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:51PM (#11971357)
I'm not at all surprised. I'm sure there are communities where this sort of statement would be welcomed, but the tech community is pretty strongly anti-Trump. I completely disagree with your opinion on this, but I don't think you should be put in a situation where you feel uncomfortable with people knowing your opinion.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by stephenr on Friday June 24, 2016 @02:07PM (#11972044)
Pretty sure South Korea and the countries within missile range of North Korea would disagree with you.

Also, when trump completely fucks the US economy, the rest of us will get fucked no matter how much we do or don't care about your neck of the woods.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by arcticbull on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:42PM (#11971252)
That depends which part, after all Trump would be fine detonating a nuclear warhead in Europe because 'it's a big place.' So probably not for Europe ;)
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by unprepare on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:32PM (#11971146)
Are you suggesting if he had come out as pro-trump he would have someone knocking on his door at 3am to haul him off?
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:48PM (#11971323)
No, I'm suggesting that's what a "police state" looks like.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by andars on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:17PM (#11970977)
We are also just talking about a four year term of the president only. If the system works at all the winner won't be able to screw anything up so much that it will be unrecoverable.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by maxxxxx on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:52AM (#11970758)
It's more like packing up, leaving one abuser and going straight into the arms of an even bigger abuser.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by pavel_lishin on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:23PM (#11971044)
Voting for Trump isn't leaving an abusive relationship, it's setting the house on fire.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by ff10 on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:50AM (#11970742)
This is a ludicrous comparison.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by saynsedit on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:29PM (#11971115)
Do you know anyone personally who has said this?
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:49PM (#11971337)
I don't even know anyone personally who has expressed any favorable view of Trump. Yet clearly they exist in fairly large numbers, so I don't think that should prevent me from acknowledging them.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by saynsedit on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:06PM (#11971524)
The support of Trump has data behind it.

Second-hand anecdotes of people claiming they'll vote for Trump just to see the system come down is not data.

Without data, it may be such a minority of people that it's not worth significant consideration in a discussion. I'm apt to believe it's an extreme minority given it's an extreme view.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:17PM (#11971620)
Maybe so, and maybe people who voted in the EU referendum without understanding the EU are likewise an extreme minority. If you want to stick with easily quantifiable facts then I don't think this is the right discussion for you.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by saynsedit on Friday June 24, 2016 @03:56PM (#11972932)
False equivalence, I wouldn't call uninformed voting (as they are painting it) extreme. I would call malicious voting extreme though.

In any case you're probably right. Most people who voted to exit the EU probably weren't uninformed. Google data only represents correlation. General buzz about brexit is a more likely explanation for the search trends. Occam's razor dominates.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by 4ad on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:40PM (#11971221)
I'm not the OP, but I know a few such people.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by maxaf on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:25AM (#11970461)
There's no harm in tearing down something that doesn't benefit the majority of voters in this country. I say let 'er burn.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:38AM (#11970608)
Yes, perfect illustration of my point.

The government benefits the people enormously. Yes, it has a lot of problems, but we're way better off with it than without it. I can totally understand a desire for reform, but simply tearing it down is insane.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by jazzyk on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:19PM (#11971004)
The only way to force the government to reform is to vote out the party that screwed up.

Unfortunately, in the US, both parties colluded to work for their corporate sponsors, not the people who vote for them, so they both need to be disrupted somehow.

Most voters understand it, and that explains the anti-establishment voting in this election (Sanders/Trump)

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:53PM (#11971381)
There's a big difference between "reform" and "tear down." I'm specifically referring to people who say they want the second. I can understand, if not agree with, people who want to elect Trump so he can reform the system. I think people who want to elect Trump to tear the system down don't understand what that means.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by jeli on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:18PM (#11970984)
Ahh yes, there's no benefit to being under the American government; we might as well all pack up and move to North Korea, because any change is good change!
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by tamana on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:27AM (#11970481)
Even though one of Trump's most legitimate points in favor was that he mocks how the USG tore down the system in Iraq and Syria, distorting the country.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by _9MOTHER9HORSE on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:23AM (#11970446)
On the contrary, the fact the EU had enormous power over British people, yet barely anyone knew what it was, what it did, or why it was important, was a compelling reason for the UK to leave.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by grive on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:41AM (#11970641)
"Enormous power"; do not paint it as if it were a confederacy.

The EU has been a scapegoat in Britain for decades. The elites used it to justify many a policy that would hurt the middle class, while pushing for more and more liberalization once in the EU parliament.

The average guy in Britain is just as much at fault here for not following what has been happening. They kept reading their fucking tabloids, the reality-check will be harsh and gruesome.

No, it's not a compelling reason for the UK to leave. It was a compelling reason for the average Briton to learn and educate himself. Now they shot themselves in the foot. Well done!

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by Shivetya on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:52AM (#11970752)
The problem the EU has always had is that it wasn't really unified and that non elected officials held to much sway over countries. Countries, not states, not territories, or such. Meaning that you had distinct separation, governments, and the like, being controlled by people not of the same. This will always lead to strife.

If anything vote simply reaffirms that EU favoring side either failed to communicate properly why it was good to stay or worse, failed to recognize or acknowledge real issues that existed and take action to explain them or fix them. As in, far too often the exit crowd was portrayed and ignorant, bigoted, or worse, and you do not convince people your side is right when you attack them

plus it benefits the EU to make it all doom and gloom because this loose grouping was never bound to be successful without more tight knit integration, something they knew they could not sell.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by k__ on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:12PM (#11970945)
Is the EU really that bad?!

I had the feeling that they forced countries to do the right thing, for example granting human rights. Even here in Germany we had laws that let you lock up people forever.

What was the bad stuff that happend in the EU?

The "crisis" was mostly due to the "elected" governments of the countries which have now financial problems.

What the EU did in the last years was mainly telling "the people" that they elected a bunch of assholes that milked their countries dry.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by rahoulb on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:29PM (#11971113)
The Remain campaign never made any positive points about staying in the EU (apart from a few in the Labour party talking about workers rights, but they got about 4% airtime and very little newspaper coverage). The vast majority of the Remain campaign was all about the terrible consequences of leaving.

The Leave campaign was a mix of fear of foreigners, fear of unaccountable bureaucracy and a vision of a Britain that had "taken back control".

The purely negative vision lost.

(There are also those that say that the Eurozone was doomed to failure because of the imbalances in the countries involved with no mechanisms to rectify those imbalances - making the fact that the EU stepped in and replaced two democratically elected governments an inevitability. So it engineered a bad situation then punished the losers in that situation for falling into it. But I don't know enough about economics to argue that point)

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by nickik on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:53PM (#11971385)
Maybe you should look up stuff like 'Vorratsdatenspeicherung'. The EU is literally demanding (and receiving) money from Germany because the haven't implemented this law yet. The reason they have not is that is was against the German constitution and it was rejected by the Bundesgerichtshof.

Now the law is coming back and a argument of the supporters is that its about EU integration and cost.

The law is very clearly against western principles, surveillance for everybody even if they did nothing.

This is just one example, the EU is used to push threw laws that can not get threw on National level and then get imposed top town.

The EU gets much better coverage then they deserve because people are into the idea of "Europe United, No War" but nobody really knows or cares much beyond that.

> The "crisis" was mostly due to the "elected" governments of the countries which have now financial problems.

Maybe you should look at this graph:

http://worthwhile.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451688169e20176155c5...

The left the question about debt open (legally) but gave the impression that it would be common. The market assumed so, and this provided false incentives for all the governments. When the debt was not common, as you can see, the bond yields spread again and some of the nations were not able to role over their debt.

Instead of fully committing to the idea of not sharing debt and letting Greece default, they don't allow that and keep Greece limping along. This is the worst of all ways because nobody knows what to expect form the EU.

The ECB has also not helped the case by conducting monetary policy so badly, that it has lead to something so bad that its only comparison is the the Great Depression. Their are multiple nations in Europe that are doing worse then they did in the GD. The GD on a global scale was far worse then what happened this time, but Europe is the outlier and that has mostly to do with the EMU and the ECB mismanagement.

Its unbelievably hard for Greece to service debt and reform while also having a NGDP that is dropping like crazy. No nation on the planet could deal with that. Greece is poor but they are not flexible, so going the forced price/wage deflation route is also not gone be easy (thats essentially what some of the Balics did).

To be fair to the ECB, even if they did do everything perfectly, they would still not be able to do a perfect job. Their is broad agreement about that in the research area of common currency zones. The problem of uniformity is quite real. Compare the NGDP of Germany and Greece. Germany in the same monetary union has a growing NGDP, the NGDP of Greece is lower then it was in 2008.

The EU and specially the EMU has totally disgraced the hole project of european union. Now the nations hate each other, calling "them" lazy or nazis in newspapers. When the project was mostly about Free Trade and Free Movement it was growing together.

Now we could get into a hole lot more issues such as the other horrible protectionist polices and the cartel enforcement that they do. Their are many other issues but this post is already to long.

tl:dr; The EU(specially EMU) is a horrible institution that is horribly managed in almost every way, specially everything that relates to economics.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by kosmic_k on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:08PM (#11970901)
There has been a mood that the EU has benefited many of those who were more educated and better off while many blue color working class members of British society were left very much behind.

Sure there's the immediate market shock of a decision the market didn't expect, but we can't say for sure that end result in one, two, or five years will be more negative than positive for those Britons.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by brewdad on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:28PM (#11971103)
Are you saying the UK will be better off without a "successful class?"

Many of those highly educated will migrate to the continent. The working class voters who sided with Leave have shot themselves in the foot.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by ZenoArrow on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:17PM (#11970978)
> "No, it's not a compelling reason for the UK to leave. It was a compelling reason for the average Briton to learn and educate himself. Now they shot themselves in the foot. Well done!"

Au contraire, mon frère. There were compelling reasons for the UK to leave the EU, they're just clearly reasons you either don't know about or don't care much about.

To give one example, the Five Presidents report from 2015 made it clear that there would be a push towards greater integration of the Eurozone, and there were fairly clear implications for what this would mean for the UK.

https://euobserver.com/economic/129218

""The world’s second largest economy cannot be managed through rule-based cooperation alone," says the report, drawn up by the heads of the European Commission, the EU Council, Eurogroup, the European Parliament and the European Central Bank (ECB)."

"The eurozone “will need to shift from a system of rules and guidelines for national economic policy-making to a system of further sovereignty sharing within common institutions, most of which already exist and can progressively fulfil this task," it adds."

""In practice, this would require member states to accept increasingly joint decision-making on elements of their respective national budgets and economic policies.""

"These changes should be possible witin the current EU treaty but other ideas such as eurozone finance ministry by 2025 are likely to require treaty changes.

“Euro area member states would continue to decide on taxation and the allocation of budgetary expenditures according to national preferences and political choices. However, as the euro area evolves towards a genuine EMU, some decisions will increasingly need to be made collectively while ensuring democratic accountability and legitimacy.”"

So with all that in mind, you can see that 'rule-based co-operation' was seen as not effective enough, and that moves were being made to set up a EU Treasury, which would control taxation throughout the Eurozone. The UK would clearly have been marginalised at this point, as the Treasury would be incentivised to make sure investment from Eurozone countries stayed within the Eurozone. However, even with this compromised position, they wouldn't have been able to strike new trade deals on their own terms as the responsibility for doing so had been taken over by the EU.

This is just one example of many, and I'd say the democratic issues in the EU were even more problematic than the financial ones. You can try to pretend that Leave voters were uninformed if it makes you happy, but there were legitimate concerns about the EU, including concerns that had nothing to do with racism.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by arrrg on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:42AM (#11970658)
The EU is not other people. The UK has always held large power in controlling the EU. Obviously in concert with others, but such is the nature of cooperation.

This othering of the EU is really lazy. The EU was never some ominous foreign entity.

Plus, get better education if that's the problem. My civics teacher was quite adept at explaining the EU. For historic reasons there is some ugly cruft, but it's nevertheless not that hard to understand.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by _9MOTHER9HORSE on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:32PM (#11971756)
Barely anyone knew who represented them in Europe. Fewer still knew what powers those representatives had.

I suspect 99% could not name more than five people in the EU machine, including Nigel Farage as a free point.

The EU is absolutely other people to the UK.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by arrrg on Saturday June 25, 2016 @12:35AM (#11975240)
This is a failure of media coverage and attention, not the EU.

And the people who were representing them are, well, mostly still David Cameron. One of the sad things about the EU is that it could never completely shake this thing many supranational organizations have, i.e. that the top-dogs are the heads of the respective member-state governments (and maybe their ministers if it’s about more narrow areas of expertise). Without them nothing can happen. They are still centrally important and involved everywhere and most everything that’s decided is done with consensus and not majority rule.

The people implementing the details are truly not that important. Do you know (many) people below the minister level in your country? It’s not relevant.

People I can think of in the EU off the top of my head: Jean-Claude Junker, president of the commission. Martin Schulz, president of the parliament. Julia Reda, cool European MP from Germany. Beatrix von Storch, racist European MP from Germany. Martin Sonneborn, European MP from Germany, member of a satirical joke party.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by a-priori on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:25AM (#11970469)
Or, perhaps, it's a compelling reason why things like this shouldn't be decided by referendum.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mr_sturd on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:39AM (#11970616)
There's nothing wrong with having a referendum over it. But a horrible media industry has made a circus over the entire thing, leaving many people misinformed.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by henriks on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:29PM (#11971106)
But that is exactly what is wrong with having a referendum over it. The circus is inevitable, as are emotional arguments abused by populist politicians. Some matters shouldn't be decided by which side of an argument happens to have hired the better team of PR consultants.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by Nelson69 on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:44AM (#11970665)
Well you can have another, can't you? Or is leaving the EU a one-way thing?

I'm sort of jealous. They had a referendum on Scottish independence and they honored the outcome. I'd love to have an up/down national vote on abortion, gay marriage, gun background checks.. At best here in the US, you're voting for a derivative, you're electing someone on the wish/hope that they support your issues if they get a chance or opportunity to of if they're willing to use political capital to actually propose the issues.. With something like abortion, it's at least 2 derivatives removed, you're voting for someone who will hopefully select a court justice (should they get to) that will align with your issues should the opportunity ever arise for them to make a judgement on it. And what's more perverse, there are a lot of single issue voters that take that multiple derivative issue situation as the only issue that matters.

It'd be an interesting experiment if nothing else.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by DrJokepu on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:01PM (#11970840)
> Or is leaving the EU a one-way thing?

It's possible to get readmitted, but only with the consent of every single member state.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mediocrejoker on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:55AM (#11970784)
I believe the EU has already put out a statement saying they want the exit to happen quickly, and they don't have any desire to renegotiate.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by winterismute on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:39AM (#11970622)
Or even more, maybe a compelling reason for Britons to elect representatives in the government and EU parliament who could actually push the reforms the EU needs?
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by grive on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:43AM (#11970659)
As if they knew what the EU needs.

Britain always pushed for more liberalization. See where it led them. They were able to push for what their GDP needed, alright.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by TearsInTheRain on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:35AM (#11970573)
how should they be decided then?
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by toomuchtodo on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:39AM (#11970619)
By representatives. You need a buffer between raw emotion and action.

Otherwise, this happens.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by jazzyk on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:04PM (#11970870)
How is this "raw emotion", though? Leaving the EU has been discussed for a few years now, quite widely.

Also, "raw emotion", direct democracy (in Switzerland, for example) can work very well. Direct democracy may not scale well, hence we need representation, but big issues should be left up to the people to be voted on.

In the end, I believe, the people in the UK voted against not so much the idea of EU, but rather expressed their frustration with the EU's inability (unwillingness?) to fix its problems. It's been brewing for a while.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by dragonwriter on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:44AM (#11970676)
But the referendum was how the representatives elected by the people decided to address the problem.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by toomuchtodo on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:46AM (#11970694)
Cameron screwed up. Oops? Don't try to meet political goals by suggesting a referendum with enormous consequences.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by rahoulb on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:31PM (#11971133)
A big part of this vote is a huge swathe of voters who felt that they were not being properly represented by their representatives. All three major parties had similar lines on economic liberalisation, immigration and freedom of movement and so on and this has been the case for almost 20 years. So when a new party stepped in and said "we hear you, we want things to change to" it's not surprising it captured some of the public's imagination.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by tacon on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:55AM (#11970778)
Remember the European Constitution that failed a few years ago? (At least the three hundred page document that they were calling a constitution.) I was shocked when my German friends mentioned that the German people would certainly have voted no, but they never got the chance. The German legislature voted for it, and that was it. Apparently most Europeans had no direct vote up or down for that constitution. And when it finally failed, it came from one of the countries that got a direct referendum.

But then thinking back to the US Constitution, it was voted in by the state legislatures without a direct vote, too. Somehow that seems OK back then, but an affront to democracy in today's world. How times change.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by nickik on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:58PM (#11971439)
Even worse, many nations did not go into the EU by popular vote. Generally if people are asked about the EU, they don't follow the line of the politcal classes. This is just the latest example.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by a-priori on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:38AM (#11970605)
We elect politicians whose full-time jobs it is to understand big and complicated issues, and to decide on our behalf how to deal with them. That includes the right to make and break treaties with other world powers.

Why should something like this be any different?

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by dragonwriter on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:46AM (#11970699)
> We elect politicians whose full-time jobs it is to understand big and complicated issues, and to decide on our behalf how to deal with them.

But, on Brexit specifically, the British people elected a government that made a campaign promise to hold exactly such a referendum, and to abide by its results.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by makomk on Friday June 24, 2016 @02:19PM (#11972136)
One very plausible theory I've seen doing the rounds is that the government never actually expected to have to follow through on that campaign promise. Strategically speaking it was a terrible idea and Cameron was always pretty pro-EU, but he needed the support of the anti-EU faction of his party, so he promised the vote as a sop to them. The theory goes that he didn't expect to get an absolute majority in Parliament and hoped the other parties would "force" him to to not follow through.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mevile on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:29AM (#11970498)
Is this also an argument for states to pull out of the USA? Because I doubt your average voter understands much about the US or state government or federalism.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by Amezarak on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:33AM (#11970554)
I would actually wager the average American understands the federal government much better than their state government, due to the hyperfocus in schools and in the media on the federal government. State and local governments get away with incredible amounts of nonsense because people don't know or care anything about them.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by epalmer on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:38AM (#11970598)
I agree. My daughter knows both. She just graduated High School. She has lobbied Congress and The Senate at the federal level and written a state bill (with 2 other high school students) that passed and was signed by our governor. While her experience is unusual, the schools here focus on us history and us government history.

I do think when I was in high school I learned more about the rest of the world than they do. And that is sad.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by Inthenameofmine on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:03PM (#11970857)
> She has lobbied Congress and The Senate at the federal level and written a state bill (with 2 other high school students) that passed and was signed by our governor.

At least doing auch lobbying and drafting was possible. This would be unthinkable in the EU. The disconnect to even the highly involved politically aware person in the EU to the power structures is huge. In manu cases purposefully and by design so. After all, the EU was born oit of a price pact essentially stablished though conglomerate economic interest. (steel, coal, electricity, transport, machinery).

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by epalmer on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:04PM (#11971506)
That is sad. In the us it is easy to lobby congress and the senate. It takes coordination and determination. Whether they listen is another story. But my daughter's cause is something that both sides of the isle care about.

Writing the state bill turned out to be easier than we would have thought but it took a lot of presentations and having the right people listening the presentations. She actually had surprising cooperation from a democratic state chairwoman of education and a republican state senator.

The cause is funding for afterschool STEM competitions for disadvantaged schools.

https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?161+sum+SB246

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by rayiner on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:32AM (#11970548)
To the contrary: Americans are usually more invested in federal politics than state politics. E.g. turnout is usually higher in federal elections, and more people know who their federal senators are than their state senators.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by rando18423 on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:32AM (#11970545)
Anecdotal, but in public elementary school in the US they actually did do a good job of explaining this. I mean I know it's very complex in some ways, but it's also not that complex?
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by cm3 on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:38AM (#11970601)
I'm genuinely curious how someone living in an EU state does not know what it is and some of the stuff the org does day-to-day. How does this happen?
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by ZeroGravitas on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:11PM (#11971574)
The EU has an official blog keeping track of all the lies that the british press publish about the EU.

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

It's worse than not knowing stuff, most UK people have negative knowledge of the EU since their heads are full of lies.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by _9MOTHER9HORSE on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:45AM (#11970679)
The EU is an utterly bewildering bureaucracy.

Barely anyone fully understands what it does.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by cm3 on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:49AM (#11970732)
Yeah, but barely anyone fully understands their municipal org either, and I took the comment to mean people have no idea at all what the EU is. For example, Iceland is not part of the EU, just part of another construct which kinda/sorta makes it easy for them to do business with the EU.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by overcast on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:39AM (#11970617)
That's why governments and more specifically republics exist, because the masses are stupid.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by cm3 on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:47AM (#11970712)
If that's true, then having them vote is a game of those in power to get what they want by trying to keep them stupid. Is that the rest of your thought? We can see how places with conflicts try to keep the population misinformed or under-informed in order to more easily justify violent actions, so who's to benefit (besides Boris Johnson) from a proper exit?
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by Eupolemos on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:45AM (#11970686)
How should the ordinary UK citizen know anything solid? Their newspapers are downright bonkers.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by dba7dba on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:11PM (#11970933)
So is US newspapers.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by Eupolemos on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:53PM (#11971377)
As a European, I don't find US media a good measuring stick.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by tamana on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:26AM (#11970473)
Or it's a compelling reason for a Brit to open a web page and read.

Most Brits don't know how their cars or trains work either , but they don't give up and walk.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by wzdd on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:32AM (#11970549)
What? That doesn't follow at all.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by pricechild on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:40AM (#11970631)
I don't think your description is accurate.

He says "I'm a bit shocked to be honest.. <Presenter: What about?> I'm shocked about both... I'm shocked that we have actually voted to leave. I didn't think that was going to happen. My vote, I didn't think was going to matter too much because I just thought we were going to remain."

Maybe this short clip is missing context... maybe he says later on in the conversation that it was a protest vote... but all this clip shows is that he's surprised they won?

It's common to vote for something you believe in, knowing the opposition will win anyway. That doesn't imply it's a protest vote, that you don't really want what you're voting for.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by nzp on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:06PM (#11970881)
So you're characterizing everyone who voted to leave based on a distorted statement of one person the BBC pulled out. He in fact did not say that, quoted no less, sentence at all! Find the clip, the full clip, and watch it. He said he was shocked that they won, AND didn't expect Cameron to resign, and so is worried about that. It's quite understandable to be worried about big changes regardless of wanting them or not. He has neither said it was a protest vote or anything like that, nor that he regrets it.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by _nalply on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:23AM (#11970448)
Welcome to direct democracy. The Swiss also had protest votes which actually passed.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by tamana on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:27AM (#11970490)
A non binding referendum is not direct democracy.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by _nalply on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:38PM (#11971803)
Right. Formally you are correct.

However effectively the Brexit vote is an expression of sovereignty of the populace. It's about power. Why? Because some parliament members are afraid to oppose the outcome.

Of course some things are different from the Swiss direct democracy. First the votes aren't ordained by politicians as a gamble but are set in motion by predefined rules in constitution and law. Second, the federal minister (Bundesrat) who has «lost» a vote doesn't retire like Mr. Cameron. Quite the opposite: everybody expects that he obeys the people and takes over to try to find the best way. Like a child who has to obey its parents and can't retire if he disagrees.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by Dr_tldr on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:42AM (#11970657)
It might worth remembering that anecdote !== data. Drawing conclusions about the motivations of a larger group from one member of that group is logically indistinguishable from all the discriminatory -isms.