News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:22AM (#11970441)
That reminds me of certain American voters saying they support Trump just because they want to tear the system down. I don't think they realize what tearing the system down would actually mean.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by avs733 on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:23AM (#11970447)
I can say with confidence that it might mean the government stays out of their medicare /s
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by ars on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:38AM (#11970600)
I get the joke, but after having dealt with them, I would personally love it if the government got out of medicare.

Just give everyone a voucher and let them buy their own health insurance using it.

The amount of paperwork, and details to keep track of and calculate was absolutely unreal. I have BOXES full of paper from medicare, there was so much I could barely keep up.

The worst was the arcane and utterly confusing rules on eligibility: if this, or if that, or you live here, or there, for these dates, and that deadline. I felt like I needed an AI just to figure it all out (and in hindsight my understanding was completely wrong, and I chose the wrong option).

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by njloof on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:23PM (#11971042)
By contrast, the paperwork I do (as a client) under Canadian single payer Medicare is nil, and my supplementary insurance (vision/dental) can be filled out online in minutes.

Sounds like you need a better system in the US. Maybe not so many different stakeholders in the system?

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by ars on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:07PM (#11971527)
That's how it works for commercial plans. Very easy, simple paperwork.

They have to compete with each other, if they were confusing no one would sign up.

> Sounds like you need a better system in the US.

It does work for most people, it's the edge cases that fail.

> Maybe not so many different stakeholders in the system?

Making medicare normal would require much higher taxes (medicare/medicaid hospital payments are below costs and are subsidized by commercial plans). People would then save money on commercial plans.

Net dollars would not change, or maybe go down, but the distribution would change, some winners, some losers.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by stephenr on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:24PM (#11971052)
Americans always seem to just assume that because their unique way of doing <thing> doesn't work, <thing> is unworkable and should be abandoned, usually in a "let the corporations fix it" kind of way.

- Banking regulations

- government backed healthcare

- gun control

- education system

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by badsock on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:58PM (#11971441)
Seriously, I don't think they realize that most of their problems with government are actually problems with just their government, which from an outsiders perspective seems very poorly run.

They outspend nearly everyone on public health and education and yet still have outcomes in the lower half of the developed world for what those programs are supposed to address. And instead of actually owning up to the poor outcomes and trying to fix them they just blame blacks and latinos for pulling down the average.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by shanusmagnus on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:24PM (#11971062)
Medicare pricing structure are heavily subsidized [indirectly] by commercial insurance plans -- this is one of the reason many providers hate taking Medicare patients. If the govt. just gave people vouchers and the Medicare system dissolved, those people would receive much less care (measured in dollars of care consumed per dollar of insurance purchased.)

That might be a good idea. In fact, it is very likely a good idea, for some global notion of 'good.' But people on Medicare would be, shall we say, vocal in their complaint.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by ars on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:03PM (#11971495)
That would have other benefits. The reason health insurance in the US is so expensive and complicated is exactly because of how commercial plans fund medicare.

If we stopped doing that hospitals could publish actual prices for procedures - same price for everybody, insurance or not. Then people could actually shop around and healthcare costs would drop.

But today prices have to be secret and impossible to understand or the way commercial plans fund medicare would collapse.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by shanusmagnus on Monday June 27, 2016 @11:06AM (#11986612)
The expense and complication is due to many, many more factors than how commercial plans fund Medicare. Medicare could disappear entirely and the price transparency you describe would not change one iota. They are largely orthogonal issues.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by brewdad on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:21PM (#11971034)
Sounds a lot like private insurance.

Handing out "free" money has worked so well for higher education. How will vouchers solve the problem of skyrocketing health care costs?

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by lgas on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:39AM (#11970624)
Actually as long as you include that "it might" part in there, you can say anything with confidence.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by fomojola on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:33AM (#11970553)
Not sure if you're being facetious, but Medicare IS the government, you do realize this? Medicare isn't some magical, mythical creature that existed from the dawn of time and has always been there: it is explicitly a creation of the government (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States))
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikestew on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:43AM (#11970664)
Not sure if you're being facetious, but Medicare IS the government

And parent even used the sarcasm tag. :-) Parent doesn't need it explained, but some American citizens apparently do: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/prescription...

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:36AM (#11970583)
They're mocking people who protested with signs like "Keep government out of my medicare!" during the debate over Obamacare.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by avs733 on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:39AM (#11970615)
note the /s
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by LanceH on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:24AM (#11970456)
Yea, only the other side has idiots voting for them.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by burkaman on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:33AM (#11970556)
"Certain american voters", not the whole "other side". I'm sure most Trump voters actually want him to be president, but I've heard a few people say "oh I'm sure he'll get impeached within a year or two, I just want to shake up the establishment".
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:34AM (#11970566)
I originally posted the comment without "certain" and then immediately went back and added it, because I was afraid someone would think I was referring to all Trump supporters without it. Apparently it didn't work anyway.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by LanceH on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:50AM (#11970738)
I didn't think you or anyone else thinks it's all. But so much of news coverage (and forum arguments) are about the fringe elements which are basically nothing more than strawmen.

Saying that there are some people ignorant of what they are voting for is not news. Stating that one side has ignorant voters carries implications that the other side is correct and right thinking.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:52AM (#11970753)
This whole story is about people who are ignorant of what they are voting for.

"Stating that one side has ignorant voters carries implications that the other side is correct and right thinking."

No it doesn't. Why would you say that? I can't even.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:32AM (#11970543)
Never said it was only that side. I consider myself an independent and while I view the Democrats more favorably, I'm not positively inclined towards either party nor either voter base. Don't read things that aren't there.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by rayiner on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:23AM (#11970451)
What would it mean?
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by raisedbyninjas on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:50AM (#11970740)
After dismantling the last superpower, a whole spectrum of things could happen. The assumption is that whatever rises from the ashes just by chance is better than the system that has been refined and mostly thrived for two centuries. Of course there is no assurance that we won't be left with a mix of anarchy and warlords.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:33AM (#11970559)
Death, destruction, anarchy, civil war.

Not that I think Trump will bring that. The office of President is not that important. But I'm talking about what a certain set of voters says they want, not what will actually happen if they vote that way.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by eumoria on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:25AM (#11970464)
...joining the EU?
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by chongli on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:27AM (#11970488)
When you're in an abusive relationship it's always harder to pack up and leave than it is to stay. You've gotta do it though, because the long term consequences of living with your abuser are unacceptable.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by simplyluke on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:29AM (#11970505)
Of course, we're talking about one of the largest/most functional nations in the history of the world not domestic abuse.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by cool_penguins on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:36AM (#11970579)
Most people in the US don't know how good they have it and what it means to be under a true abusive and police state.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:43AM (#11970661)
I think a big chunk of Americans almost want it to be a police state, so they have something to fight against.

It makes me think of Sam Altman's recent article about Trump. He said he was taking some risk by writing that, and some commenters here praised his bravery in taking a public stand on this. It's ridiculous. Bravery would be a prominent techie taking a stand for Trump. He's not going to suffer any consequences for publishing that. Nobody's going to knock on his door and haul him off at 3AM, or deny him entrance into any organizations, or even shoot him dirty looks on the street.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by meric on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:17PM (#11970979)
I got some really bad looks in my office building when some people overheard me telling a colleague I rather Clinton lose than Trump lose, due to her preference for fighting wars. One person looked at me like if they could kill me, he would, like I was some enemy. A lot of anti-Trump people accuse Trump supporters of bigotry and exclusion, but I think that's projection on their part.

No, I don't feel comfortable writing this comment. For the record, I don't like Clinton or Trump. But it's better for the rest of the world for Clinton to lose.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by scrollaway on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:40PM (#11971224)
> I think that's projection on their part

I'm sorry, what? You can certainly call it prejudice. There's plenty of trump supporters who aren't bigots, but there's also a lot of them who are, and Trump's campaign has been majorly based on demagoguery, bigotism and xenophobia.

If you're voicing/implying support for someone whose campaign is built on racism, don't be surprised if you're getting dirty looks.

As for dirty looks, that's what they are. You're accusing "the other side" of projection when you yourself are interpreting a look as "I want to kill you". Jeez.

Edit:

> But it's better for the rest of the world for Clinton to lose.

I appreciate the conendrum the US is facing in this election cycle, but if you're going to make decisions based on their worldwide implications, you should ask around in the rest of the world. Clinton is an inconsequential establishment politician; Trump is a loose cannon who "won't rule out using nukes in Europe". As someone living in said Europe, I really wonder how you got to that conclusion.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by meric on Friday June 24, 2016 @10:01PM (#11974835)
They are both very egoistic and unsuitable as presidents. One of them has a strong history of deliberate action fanning the flames of war which has led to the current refugee situation in Europe, notwithstanding the hundreds of thousands killed and millions displaced, the other talks about building walls and keeping people out of the country, instead of interfering with people out of the country, plus some BS talk about nukes and Mexicans. Guaranteed warmonger or probable asshole? I choose the latter. But really, they are both horrible choices so in the end it doesn't mean much to have the 'better' one win. Why do people have strong emotional responses to people having different preferences?

And you weren't with me to see that look. It was incredibly hostile. No I don't think he literally wanted to kill me, but he had the same look as a person who would. (From movies)

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by dpark on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:51PM (#11971361)
> * I rather Clinton lose than Trump lose, due to her preference for fighting wars*

Trump publicly stated his support for the Iraq war during an interview in 2002. He's since backpedaled claiming that he was against it "before it started" but all indications are that he was, at most, neutral on the war before it started (being against the war after it starts is kind of irrelevant).

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/19/donald-trump...

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/02/donald-trump-and-the-iraq-w...

> A lot of anti-Trump people accuse Trump supporters of bigotry and exclusion, but I think that's projection on their part.

A lot of Trump supporters are really good at ignoring the obvious terrible things about Trump and his campaign and latching onto the one or two things they like about him. You can't honestly claim that there is no bigotry or exclusion in Trump's campaigning. He's called for a ban on Muslims entering the country. He's called for building a huge wall along the Mexican border and deporting 11 million immigrants. Plus, you know, the "rapists and murderers" comment about Mexicans entering the US.

If you think that Trump is the better candidate in spite of his obvious shortcomings, you should have the honesty to say so, rather than pretend his shortcomings aren't real.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:51PM (#11971357)
I'm not at all surprised. I'm sure there are communities where this sort of statement would be welcomed, but the tech community is pretty strongly anti-Trump. I completely disagree with your opinion on this, but I don't think you should be put in a situation where you feel uncomfortable with people knowing your opinion.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by stephenr on Friday June 24, 2016 @02:07PM (#11972044)
Pretty sure South Korea and the countries within missile range of North Korea would disagree with you.

Also, when trump completely fucks the US economy, the rest of us will get fucked no matter how much we do or don't care about your neck of the woods.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by arcticbull on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:42PM (#11971252)
That depends which part, after all Trump would be fine detonating a nuclear warhead in Europe because 'it's a big place.' So probably not for Europe ;)
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by unprepare on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:32PM (#11971146)
Are you suggesting if he had come out as pro-trump he would have someone knocking on his door at 3am to haul him off?
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:48PM (#11971323)
No, I'm suggesting that's what a "police state" looks like.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by andars on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:17PM (#11970977)
We are also just talking about a four year term of the president only. If the system works at all the winner won't be able to screw anything up so much that it will be unrecoverable.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by maxxxxx on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:52AM (#11970758)
It's more like packing up, leaving one abuser and going straight into the arms of an even bigger abuser.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by pavel_lishin on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:23PM (#11971044)
Voting for Trump isn't leaving an abusive relationship, it's setting the house on fire.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by ff10 on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:50AM (#11970742)
This is a ludicrous comparison.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by saynsedit on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:29PM (#11971115)
Do you know anyone personally who has said this?
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:49PM (#11971337)
I don't even know anyone personally who has expressed any favorable view of Trump. Yet clearly they exist in fairly large numbers, so I don't think that should prevent me from acknowledging them.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by saynsedit on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:06PM (#11971524)
The support of Trump has data behind it.

Second-hand anecdotes of people claiming they'll vote for Trump just to see the system come down is not data.

Without data, it may be such a minority of people that it's not worth significant consideration in a discussion. I'm apt to believe it's an extreme minority given it's an extreme view.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:17PM (#11971620)
Maybe so, and maybe people who voted in the EU referendum without understanding the EU are likewise an extreme minority. If you want to stick with easily quantifiable facts then I don't think this is the right discussion for you.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by saynsedit on Friday June 24, 2016 @03:56PM (#11972932)
False equivalence, I wouldn't call uninformed voting (as they are painting it) extreme. I would call malicious voting extreme though.

In any case you're probably right. Most people who voted to exit the EU probably weren't uninformed. Google data only represents correlation. General buzz about brexit is a more likely explanation for the search trends. Occam's razor dominates.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by 4ad on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:40PM (#11971221)
I'm not the OP, but I know a few such people.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by maxaf on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:25AM (#11970461)
There's no harm in tearing down something that doesn't benefit the majority of voters in this country. I say let 'er burn.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:38AM (#11970608)
Yes, perfect illustration of my point.

The government benefits the people enormously. Yes, it has a lot of problems, but we're way better off with it than without it. I can totally understand a desire for reform, but simply tearing it down is insane.

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by jazzyk on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:19PM (#11971004)
The only way to force the government to reform is to vote out the party that screwed up.

Unfortunately, in the US, both parties colluded to work for their corporate sponsors, not the people who vote for them, so they both need to be disrupted somehow.

Most voters understand it, and that explains the anti-establishment voting in this election (Sanders/Trump)

Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by mikeash on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:53PM (#11971381)
There's a big difference between "reform" and "tear down." I'm specifically referring to people who say they want the second. I can understand, if not agree with, people who want to elect Trump so he can reform the system. I think people who want to elect Trump to tear the system down don't understand what that means.
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by jeli on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:18PM (#11970984)
Ahh yes, there's no benefit to being under the American government; we might as well all pack up and move to North Korea, because any change is good change!
Re:The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after vo... by tamana on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:27AM (#11970481)
Even though one of Trump's most legitimate points in favor was that he mocks how the USG tore down the system in Iraq and Syria, distorting the country.