My honest assessment, (having worked for a company that supplies parts and SW to Lab126 [1] in the past) is that the hardware design and specs were nailed down quite some time ago, but they took so long to execute and launch that the world they launched into was vastly different from the one they had targeting against when they first started designing the phone and coming up with the battle plans.

[1] Lab126 is Amazon's hardware arm that makes these phones.

You are probably right about the specs being nailed down a long time ago, but I don't think it really would have made a difference. The only possible scenario where Amazon can reliably sell smartphones at a price of $650 would be if they scored exclusive rights to distribute the iPhone 6.

I think they could have deluded themselves into thinking that a $650 phone would work much more easily 2 years ago than today, for instance.

I can see how that could be the case. They wouldn't have had my $650 even two years ago, but its possible they would have had a better result than they did in 2014.

In the future, I think Amazon still may have a shot at producing a decent phone at a reasonable price.

Hell, I just bought a Galaxy Nexus (from Amazon) to replace the LG G2 that I broke (didn't feel like spending $600). In spite of its age, its hands-down a better phone than the G2. If they get the form-factor and the software right, there are lots of people who won't even care if the CPU isn't the latest and greatest iteration.

One thing that's great about the GN phone is that you can swap out the batteries to obviate the need to carry around a portable battery. You can't do this with the N4 (can't take off backplate) or the N5 (you can take off the backplate, but there's a metal brace holding the battery in place).

My friend still has his GN phone from its original launch and carries 2 extra batteries with him at all times (he's a real estate broker so he needs to always be available via phone)

Just curious: what does a real estate broker do where he needs to be away from electricity for the time it takes to replace his batteries twice? Maybe he works in a big city and uses public transit?

Many people who own and use smartphones don't know they can charge them while driving by attaching them to the car's power by way of a cigarette lighter power adaptor.

The irony of the cigarette lighter outlet in a modern car is that it's not likely to be used for its original purpose, but it won't disappear from cars because it's a convenient way to charge a small electronic device.

> The irony of the cigarette lighter outlet in a modern car is that it's not likely to be used for its original purpose, but it won't disappear from cars because it's a convenient way to charge a small electronic device.

I subscribe to a car-sharing service that uses exclusively Volvos and they all have USB ports. And the cigarette lighters are marked "12V" instead of "cigarette lighter". I can see the 12V ports disappearing in favor of USB in a couple years.

That would be a major shame since there are AC power inverters that run off of 12V ports in cars. Some people rely on those for different reasons. For example, it's a really nice way to recharge a laptop while traveling.

I drive a Jeep Wrangler. 2012+ they have a 120v AC outlet, cigarette lighters (one in the front, and one in the back where you can connect refrigerators and such), and multiple USB ports. Including a USB port inside the center console which locks, allowing you to charge your phone securely while away from your vehicle with the top off.

It's also worth noting that an adapter that connects the 12v in any car to a USB outlet can be had for less than $10 on Amazon.

In my last rental car they skipped the middleman; there was no 12v port, but there was a 120V AC socket, as well as the usb.

With USB PD, you can recharge your laptop through USB, which will now provide up to 100W. No doubt there will be USB PD - AC power inverters for other use cases when 12V ports are obsoleted.

It will disappear. A lot of new cars in Europe already have a USB port built into the dashboard.

A lot of new cars in Europe also have front, rear and trunk 12V sockets.

I wouldn't buy one without at least two of those.

That sounds more practical. A lot of equipment exists that assumes the presence of a cigarette lighter socket, but I wouldn't be surprised if they declined over time because the USB socket is cheaper and more versatile.

It'll be fun when people start buying USB-powered cigarette lighters because they've been obsoleted from cars :)

The joke going around is "can you unplug your book, I need to charge my cigarette": the lighter will be obsoleted too in favour of e-cigs. Generally it's better for things not to be on fire.

> Generally it's better for things not to be on fire.

Maybe in your bubble.

When gas stations are selling e-cigs, how is that a techie-bubble at all?

My 2009 BMW has a USB. Works great as a charger.

If the only reason for not getting the Nexus is the ability to change batteries, he could just carry around one of those portable phone charger batteries, and then he could enjoy a Nexus and be always charged.

http://www.techradar.com/us/news/portable-devices/other-devi...

Grandparent post: One thing that's great about the GN phone is that you can swap out the batteries to obviate the need to carry around a portable battery.

I do the same thing, deliberately have a phone that has user-swappable batteries. Why? I can insert a second battery that is fully charged instead of having to plug in the external battery (along with keeping track of the charging cable) and let it charge the internal battery. As a nice side bonus, I can also buy batteries which are larger than the stock battery. My Galaxy S4 GPE has aftermarket batteries available (mine is from Anker) that are essentially two stock batteries strapped together, or 5200mAh of capacity versus 2600mAh stock. Yes, the phone gets one "battery height" thicker but having two solid days of my normal use is outstanding.

If his need is the actual PHONE (as in, the part you make calls with), I think he'd be better off with an old RAZR or other flip-phone - those things are a dime a dozen and last days if not the better part of a week on a charge, while making tons of calls.

(So, I'm old - can you even get these anymore?)

Im not sure about the old RAZR specifically, but there are still a number of feature phones available that not only will provide similar battery life you are talking about, but also require a much cheaper plan.

But as a real estate agent, he is probably leveraging other uses from his smartphone that would make this an unattractive option. I guess it would either be carry a smartphone and a feature phone, or a smartphone with some spare batteries.

I bought a Samsung E2370 as a hiking phone for 70USD. The usual one-day battery time is no good if you plan to hike for weeks. According to the specs it has 90 day standby. According to the web site its only 65 (not sure why it differs).When I had it idling on my desk I had to charge it after 70 days. I guess this is what you get with a modern bulky battery if you just scale down on features.

The G2 was one of the best Android phones I ever used (and I used a lot - GS2, GS3, GS4, Note, Nexus One, Nexus 4, Nexus 5). The G2 has outstanding battery-life, great UI tweaks, great size, minimal bezels, great audio, etc.

The G2 is definitely a nice phone. I was rather sad when I dropped it and smashed the screen. I just happen to think that the Galaxy Nexus is the best Android phone ever made.

Stock Android really is the best experience. You can tell it was designed with a sort of consistency and fluidity that all of the manufacturer skins lack. I would also take a Galaxy Nexus over any skinned Android device; with the exception of HTC Sense, which has really improved since the disastrous Gingerbread days.

I generally refer to the OEM software as "value subtracted software"; it's only there as a weak effort at de-commoditising the hardware.

I just install Aviate or some other thing on top of TouchWiz on my Galaxy 5. Who cares what the default UI is like, you can replace it is enough on Android. I think you can get any kind of Android UI you like, you're not stuck with what you get from the manufacturer.

Not all of it. In one of the recent HTC updates they pushed some incredinly inane "features", for instance a "volume warning" that forces you to click ok to move the volume past about the halfway point - even if it's the BLUETOOTH volume.

Volume warning is actually from stock Android.

I've got a HTC One GPE, keep it bone-stock, never seen any volume warnings.

N4 running stock here. I've never seen that.

I'm pretty fond of Sony's (generally mild) changes from stock from the 4.0 era on. These days they seem to put most of their efforts into apps (where it belongs) to differentiate the camera, media players and so on.

Wouldn't it been still better to sell cheaper and hope for some income through the purchase customers made with their product?

I worked at Lab126 on this project when this project was just started (a number of years ago). Given the environment in the team and the people hired to lead it, the fact that anything shipped at all is a miracle of gargantuan proportions, trust me.

Given the fact that entire 'Lab126' commented on the matter[1], I had the chance to read some of these people's resumes... Which makes your quote hard to believe :-)

[1] That's why I love HN anyway.

Sometimes the best individuals make the worst teams. Almost correlated, actually: those with the best resumes tend to think that products are made by individuals.

where did they comment on the matter? Can't find said comment or was it an article?

I'm a writer. You should tell me some of your story! I'm contactable via my username at gmail.com

I wrote the original piece above - would love to hear all about your experience. Email easy to find.

As an owner of Amazon stock, I was very dismayed to see Amazon release a phone. The market is completely over-saturated. And worse, knowing Jeff Bezos, he will double down and double down and double down on this thing and never give up. That it's a fundamentally bad idea is not something he will even consider once he's decided to go this route. I expect the Fire Phone to take a very big chunk out of Amazon over the coming decade.

Where has he doubled down and double down and double down and lost where it cost the company dearly? I'm not saying that because I believe you are wrong, but because I could be missing something.

Two weeks ago at the Verizon store, they were selling Note 3's for $99 which appear to be at least spec-wise a far better phone.

In between the $99 Note 3 and the $650 Amazon phone there's an entire universe of better phones.

While there's some cool software included with it, I honestly don't think any of the things on show are killer features worthy of the price difference. The main special feature appears to be a "identify this item" which is basically what the amazon app on android already does, except now there's a dedicated button for it.

Do people really walk around identifying items for purchase to comparison shop on Amazon so often a dedicated button needs to be built into the device?

>Do people really walk around identifying items for purchase to comparison shop on Amazon so often a dedicated button needs to be built into the device?

Oh I didn't even know that was a feature. That actually sounds pretty cool to me. I know it's not a strong user behavior at the moment, but plenty of people price shop in brick and mortar stores (I certianly do it every time I'm at Best Buy, but it's just to get Best Buy to price match with Amazon), but maybe if (a) the phone comes down in price and (b) they offer some kind of brownie on top of the feature (like a N% discount over the brick and mortar store's matched price with Amazon, if you physically scan an item and the phone detects via GPS that you're at a storefront?), maybe it can slowly tide people over and change user behavior.

It is a strong behaviour. The 1st ranking website in Greece is a price-comparison website called 'Skroutz'. That's because every one I know, makes 'Skroutz search' before buying an item and compares the price of the item with the online counter-part.

The thing with Skroutz is that you know the shipping cost is about 2 to 4 EUR. But with Amazon you can't tell how much the shipping cost might be, from Amazon-UK/FR/DE/IT to GR.

You can't even easily tell if they will ship to your destination without trying to complete a transaction.

Very annoying.

But doesn't the Fire phone come with free Amazon Prime (free shipping)?

I simply cannot believe anyone was selling a Note 3 for $99 dollars. $99 dollars down payment on a multi-thousand dollar contract seems far more likely.

Which, along with similar comments I see on nearly every US-focused tech site, leads me to conclude that basically no-one in the US knows how much phones cost, not even literate techies of the kind that hang out on HN.

My best guess as to why Amazon thought they could sell a ho-hum phone for $650 dollars is therefore: to a large degree no-one in the US knows or cares how much their phone costs so reducing the price has little to no impact on sales.

Off contract the phone is $700. You can usually find it on Amazon for ~$500-600.

There's like a $10/mo discount buying the phone then bringing it to VZ to use. At a $600 difference in price (vs. $99 on contract), you can't make the difference up with a $240 reduction in service cost.

So yeah, technically you're right, it's $99 with a 2 year contract, the problem is that people do know what these devices actually cost. Hell, you can look them up on Amazon and ebay while you're in the store and the sales reps will even help you do it. It's just not always cheaper to roll your own.

The problem with Amazon's phone is that when you go phone shopping you just don't see one in the phone stores. If they can only be bought off contract, your effective price for the phone is still north of $400, at least on Verizon. Not even the latest iPhone or Galaxy <whatever> sells in that price range on contract.

> ... to a large degree no-one in the US knows or cares how much their phone costs so reducing the price has little to no impact.

But it's worse than that. Many Americans are such complete consumers that they'll pick the higher-priced item solely because it has a higher price, "reasoning" that, if it has a higher price, then it must have a higher value.

> Many Americans are such complete consumers that they'll pick the higher-priced item solely because it has a higher price, "reasoning" that, if it has a higher price, then it must have a higher value.

App stores and the rush to freemium with IAPs are a counter to your point.

My SO for one. She lives to tell me how much money she saved buying useless crap I don't want or need nor can see any possible use for.

This does not sound like a healthy relationship.

he can still love her while thinking some acts of her are stupid and knowing that she is not, actually, perfect.

"Lives to..." sounds more serious than that. Maybe just hyperbole.

It is a serious addiction of some kind. It wouldn't be so bad if she wasn't constantly seeking my approval for it.. I point out that we haven't used the last juicer and she expects the new one to make me happy because it was half price! I suppose it is just a first world problem.

Amazon brand means to me that it'll be more convenient than the brick and mortar competition also slightly cheaper, and faster to deliver than all of the online competition also usually cheaper than online competition.

If their phone were a book, it would cost about twice as much as barnes and noble, and take 8 months to arrive, and wouldn't be any more convenient. So that's fairly mystifying.

The convenience factor is the strangest aspect of this phone. How are they making the ordering, delivery, and activation phase more convenient than a competitor like republic wireless? Oh they aren't. Well then.

So... I've heard the top down of why they're doing a phone, but whats the bottom up of why they're shipping something that is almost the opposite of the amazon brand?

Its not really an Amazon Phone. Its just a crappy overpriced underspec'd phone that happens to be sold by Amazon.

Looking at this post as well as the Firefox OS phone ($33 one) on HN today, I was wondering whether it makes sense for Amazon to release an FFOS device with Amazon's product's on centre stage (Prime video, Amazon store (not the Amazon app store), Kindle etc.). If they came out with a phone that had specs comparable to the Flame (or slightly better) and price it competitively($175ish), both companies can do well.

If the 2-year development timeframe is correct, one can see how Amazon couldn't even have thought of FFOS as an alternative, but now, FFOS is slowly but surely getting there. If Amazon uses it's engineering chops to advance FFOS – and I am sure that a lot of developers at Amazon will be happy to contribute to FFOS too – perhaps they could compete with Android and iOS?

The reality is that customers just don't want to use Firefox OS. Even with Amazon's support, it would still be very inferior in many ways to Android and iOS, and even to some of the other less-popular mobile OSes that are already out there.

Given that Firefox OS apps written in HTML5, CSS and JavaScript should run just as well on Android and iOS, anyone actually wanting to use such apps is better off just getting an Android or an iOS device. That way they can run the Firefox OS apps, as well as all of the other apps that Android or iOS support.

> The reality is that customers just don't want to use Firefox OS.

Is a Firefox OS device on sale in any US retail store? I've never even talked with another person that had heard of Firefox OS. How could you possibly know that customers don't want it?

    I've never even talked with another
    person that had heard of Firefox OS.
    How could you possibly know that
    customers don't want it?

I could pick anyone who didn't have the slightest clue what FLOSS means, besides something they should do at least once a day, and ask them about a FFOS phone. Here's how that conversation would go down:

Me: Hey, did you know you can get a smartphone for $33?

Them: Cool! That sounds great, and $66 cheaper than my iPhone.

Me: Yeah, that would totally pay for 3 weeks of your cell phone bill.

Them: Sounds good, so I can get Instagram on it, right?

Me: Yep, except you won't be able to post photos.

Them: Oh. How about Flappy Bird.

Me: Nope, sorry.

Them: Darn, but that's ok. Too addictive. How about Uber, Whatsapp, and Facebook?

Me: Totally! Mobile web all the way, baby! HTML 5!

Them: Awesome!

<2 Weeks Pass>

Them: I went back to my iPhone. Those mobile websites suck.

You obviously wouldn't be having that conversation with me. You might want to consider that others might not use a phone the same way you do. ("Anyone" is a pretty bold claim.)

Though I would really love it if you could show me where to get a $99 iPhone.

I think he meant that non-tech guy X considers his generation old, contract based $99 iPhone as costing $99 period.

I realize that, but there are a lot of people out there that are smart enough to take the monthly cost of the contract into account, however you want to describe them. I do a lot of programming, but am a "non-tech" guy myself.

Unfortunately there isnt much to be had FLOSS-wise over android with FX-os as they use the same shitty closed source driver model as android.

I dont know why anyone would want these phones.

You might want to explain the true cost of an iPhone to them.

T-Mobile's doing a great job of that. Or are you talking about "Ring 0 freedoms"?

Suggesting that an iPhone costs $99 when it costs $99 plus monthly contract makes the comparison less than useful.

The reality is that for some reason you're a Firefox OS hater. I don't think anyone forces you to use it you know...

But more people chose Firefox OS than Amazon so far.

More people bought 1958 Edsels than 1958 Volkswagen Beetles too, that doesn't make the Edsel a better car than the Beetle. Popularity is not the same thing as value.

Emotion is totally irrelevant here. I don't "hate" Firefox OS, nor do I "like" Firefox OS.

It's just a tool, so I give it an objective, unemotional analysis. That analysis shows that it lacks the features and functionality that are needed for it to be a useful tool for the vast, vast majority of users.

Most people use a phone for practical reasons, not ideological ones. They don't care how "open" it may be if it doesn't run the apps they need or want to use. Firefox OS will have no chance of succeeding in the long run as long as it continues to provide a sub-par user experience.

Amazon investing into the Firefox OS would be super beneficial for both companies long term. With AWS, Amazon is already powering a big chunk of the web so supporting Firefox /OS and help it become the best mobile web client makes sense and will make a ton of developers happy, which is all they need to do for now if they want a larger piece of the mobile market.

And you know, makes sense branding-wise. A Fire phone runs Firefox!

Well, it's most likely that their product development cycle for this phone was just too long - the smartphone market moves really fast. Couple that with not having supply chain heft that comes with time and big orders from your asian suppliers and mfgs, the phone wasn't going to be cheap either.

But I think they knew all this. It starts the water flowing for them to get into the game. they have staying power, and over time, could start gaining market share. It's a long play, like most of Bezo's moves. The phone is really a just going to be part of the AMZN ecosystem too - they'll start lumping services on it for prime members, etc.

It seems they really tried to get into the market as a no-nonsense top player, with a phone that they perceived could go head-on with the flagships of Apple, Samsung and Google.

It would have made more sense (at least as a way of putting the foot into the door) to release a cheap, decently specced phone, which would have leveraged on Amazon services to subsidise the price, with strong client apps for kindle, video streaming, and the main Amazon shop.

Hasn't Amazon built their empire with the high volume/thin margins mantra ?

Really weird, and out of "character" for Amazon.

you gotta release something to be able to iterate it

It's worse than that, though. The Amazon app store is crippled, like on the Amazon tablets. My current edition Kindle Fire has no YouTube app! Almost everything shows up later than in the stock store, if at all. The only thing that isn't worse is that the prices are essentially competitive, but overall it's a total pain.

Indeed. And it was so abundantly clear that this phone was going to fail that I have to speculate that Amazon themselves must have known this. Maybe the sunk costs involved in such a project gave them no choice but to continue deluding themselves?

It just goes to show, even the big boys make things nobody wants.

Mostly at this point I'm curious whether Amazon will attempt to iterate themselves into a second version. Thinking they can just improve the phone, maybe alter the pricing, and try again.

I know exactly which video you are referring to and I have also never seen anything with a higher and more obvious likelyhood to fail than that. I also have never seen an Amazon phone in the wild. But at least Amazon is not permanently damaged like the guys in the video.

There is the advertising too. My wife asked if we should buy one for our daughter. She assumed it was a cheap sturdy phone for kids because the ad was about a nine year old using one.

I'm not anywhere close to that part of the business, but I would be highly skeptical that she had much input at all. The kindle division, which this falls under, is highly command-and-control. Co-workers in the Kindle buildings say that they regularly see Jeff Bezos in their hallways (like 2-5 times a week), whereas I have only seen him once at a company meeting. Scope creep is a huge problem because you have dictator managers that all have their favorite feature that is priority 1, and there are so goddamn many of them. I wouldn't be surprised if some VP somewhere delayed the launch for a year just so they could launch with the cool-but-completely-useless 3d maps.

She was no doubt a part of the process, but there is no way she ran the show.

So what happened to the Amazon "Working Backwards" methodology of writing up a one-page PR release & customer FAQ, and working back from that to designing/creating the product? Wasn't that designed to reduce scope creep? Is Amazon still using that method?

Well, they probably did that and then subsequently ignored it. Happens all the time really.

For the most part, starting with the customer and working back is really successful. But we also have this sort of escalation culture where anybody above you can raise an issue that forces you to drop everything and answer the question. In general, its also a pretty good thing when it is truly used for "WTF you dunces, how did a customer get 100 boxes for their 100 unit order?" situations. But the power gets abused by a decent share of upper level managers like some sort of power trip. They interrupt major projects, take the steam out of sprints, and occasionally it forces major scope change. I just left an org where this was my sr manager's sole purpose in life. A shame, really...I really enjoyed my job but I wasn't allowed to do it.

That's quite enlightening. My comment was due to my industry-related naiveté. I thought a principal PM has the final say on both the features and the business side of a product. I didn't realize VPs add additional filters.

Principal is a job level. It is above Senior. A single product frequently has multiple Product Managers, some of whom are Senior PMs, some are Principal PMs, and some are "just" PMs. You could even have a Senior Principal PM.

Let's nip this trend in the butt. Outside the organization in question we really have no idea what's going on and who is or is not responsible for a particular poor outcome. It's not fair to the individual - or to the real executives who fucked up - to call out one person in this way.

(The expression is "nip it in the bud." Nipping in the butt is what a small dog with aggression problems will do to you.)