There's lots of reasons it isn't so simple for people.

1) Barriers to work and emigration

2) Language barriers - I know that learning a new language isn't impossible (I know a little Spanish but I'd hardly call myself fluent), but I speak only English fluently, which limits me to a handful of nations, many of which are nearly as bad as the United States (hey UK, how are those surveillance cameras?)

3) A lot of us have family support systems that aren't easy to give up - I happen to know who you are, and happen to know that the country to which you moved didn't have that problem. ;)

I know it's not impossible - I follow /r/IWantOut over on Reddit because I have my own fantasies about leaving the U.S. and maybe moving to a Spanish-speaking country with liberal emigration policies (perhaps Uruguay?). But it's not something I feel like I can put my family through at this time - it's definitely not what I'd call "extremely simple."

And one reason why it is extremely simple: if you're not from the U.S. to begin with.

Our universities and business culture lure the best of the best from all over the world to the United States. Our draconian travel rules, lack of privacy and "shoot first, ask questions later" laws discourage them from even visiting let alone live here.

Look like a Muslim? Suspected jihadist. Detained.

Carry more than a few thousands dollars? Drug dealer. Money seized.

One of the 99.99% that don't fall into any suspect group? Still suspected. Violate your privacy and freedoms.

If I were anything but a natural born citizen, this crap would make me leave in a minute.

The weird part of it was after opting out the TSA thug asked if I wanted to go somewhere private for my government-blessed groping. They must have had the cattle prods and waterboards ready.

In all seriousness, if we want the TSA to remain in any way accountable we need to opt-out, and to do it in public with other fellow travelers watching, since there is no telling what happens when they pull you aside in a room for an "enhanced pat down".

There is a perverse irony to the whole thing though, if a man decides to sit alone in a park, say to get some coding done outside in the sun this automatically means that you are a pedo and the soccer moms will not hesitate to call the police on you. On the other hand you have actual TSA agents groping kids all the time at the airport (http://articles.philly.com/2011-04-23/news/29466700_1_tsa-sp...). They get to wear a uniform and stick their hands down people's pants every goddamn day. Is this what freedom looks like?

And while we do have liberal emigration policies, the bureaucracy involved cannot be underestimated.

There are another things going on that you will find violations of your privacy - Uruguay has a nationwide ID program with fingerprinting (and probably DNA in the near future).

We don't have cameras or backscatter machines yet, but the current wave of insecurity will probably make people clamor for them soon - weird statistic: you're ten times more likely to be murdered in the U.S., but almost twenty times more likely to be robbed in Uruguay (I had my laptop stolen last month, for example).

The current government isn't likely to cave in easily to the U.S. government, but what about the next one?

Getting permanent residency in Paraguay was fairly simple. I completed it in about seven months (partially because I needed to wait for my FBI background check). Other people I know had theirs completed in four to six months.

I also find Paraguay to have less government intrusion than Uruguay. Not that Uruguay felt oppressive, but the Uruguayan government is certainly involved in more aspects of business, welfare, regulations, etc., than the Paraguayan government.

Most Paraguayans only speak Spanish, or Guarani (the native language). However, if you're working in the tech sector, it isn't unusual to find people who speak a decent amount of English.

For US citizens, that means the FBI (although you generally have your fingerprints taken by your local police, and send the fingerprint card to the FBI). Since I was already in South America, I had my fingerprints taken at the Paraguayan Interpol office. I sent them to the FBI in the US and waited about 75 days to get my results back.

I also had to get fingerprinted for a criminal background check by the Paraguayan police, even though I had never been in Paraguay before.

Other than that, the process was fairly simple - a copy of my birth certificate (certified by the Paraguayan consulate in the US), a couple of visa-sized photos, and US$5000 to deposit in a local bank for the duration of my application (to prove I'm financially solvent). If you're married or divorced, you'll also need to have those papers legalized.

> 1) Barriers to work and emigration

While real, they can be overcome. Also, I'd wager there will be something of a domino effect -- once other countries begin to catch on that well educated, highly trained Americans are looking to leave, it will likely become easier to do so.

> 2) Language barriers

One, you'd be amazed how much you can get across non-verbally. Two, it might take years to become conversational in a language, but probably only a handful of months to get good enough to do the daily shopping. Three...what everyone else has said: if you know English, there are very few places in the world where you'll ever be completely unable to communicate with someone.

> 3) A lot of us have family support systems that aren't easy to give up

Yeah, I understand completely ;-)...

My mother was born in the same house in Switzerland where my grandfather and his brothers and sisters grew up. My great-uncle lived in that same house until the day he died, and my great-aunts still live in the same village to this day. I can only imagine how hard it was for my grandfather and grandmother to give all that up and move their three children to America in the '50s, but they truly believed, at the time, that it was worth it.

At the same time, while I do have family where I live now, I also had to leave behind a large family in the US. Airline tickets are expensive, but manageable for at least once yearly visits. Video chat is all but ubiquitous. Time zones differences are the hardest to manage, but still doable (http://everytimezone.com/ helps, even though they still don't have my time zone).

I don't like that I now feel like I had to leave, though I am very glad that I did leave.

Living in another country, even if only temporarily, is something I would recommend to anyone in any country. A friend is currently living abroad for a year with his two school-age kids, and he seems to be having a blast so far. It will certainly improve your ability to gain perspective. It may change your outlook on life. Certainly, when I left I still harbored the notion that at some future time I might return...I don't feel that way any longer.

  >> 1) Barriers to work and emigration
  > While real, they can be overcome. Also,
  I'd wager there will be something of a domino effect

  >> 2) Language barriers
  > One, you'd be amazed how much you can
  get across non-verbally

  >> 3) A lot of us have family support systems 
  that aren't easy to give up
  >Yeah, I understand completely ;-)...

For example, its hard enough finding a good school in my own neighborhood (US, english speaking) let along transferring my kids to a new school where they don't speak the language and I have to deal with bureaucracy and hope I'm not screwing up their future. Thats just one quick simple example. Tell a 5 year old she'll never see her friends again and good luck learning French, German, Spanish, or whatever.

I really can't believe you replied with "Yeah, I understand completely ;-)..." to that. Seriously.

On a final note. I'm Irish and lived (US) here 12 years. My family and I can move to Ireland at any time without worry for some of the larger barriers; visa and language.

However to do so is by no means: "extremely simple" or even just "simple".

This is HN, you just left a comment, and not expected to write a thesis on the subject.

That not your fault, people white-wash what are complicated situations all the time and over-simplify. However your off the cuff glib advice is not particular accurate or helpful.

Think before you type. Please.

For some people it's easier than for others. I work with a ton of people who've migrated to Sweden. I think they find 1 and 2 fairly easy -- not trivial, mind you, but not hard enough that they can't be overcome. The third problem varies from person to person and what stage in life they're at. We have many people who have moved here with kids, and it seems to work out well. So it's certainly not unsurmountable, but yes, not easy either.

It was my desperate attempt to implore them (and people in general) to think through their responses before hitting Submit.

Opinion is great, but we're all too trigger happy to post our own view. Often its best if we didn't contribute on matters we are not well versed in.

I'm guilty of this myself. Not implying I'm not.

Its a futile exercise I'm sure, but somethings I feel like I have to try.

  >> 2) Language barriers
  > One, you'd be amazed how much you can get across non verbally

German here, I have worked in Germany and abroad, I worked with an Australian guy working in Germany that spoke about five words of German and that was completely fine ( he did HTML&CSS stuff, a little bit of PHP). Our client was American as well, but he spoke some German I think. (this was 2008ish)

My managers Manager in a big consultancy was American and stayed in Germany for a year and a half I think and did just fine with only english. The project lead at the same company was from India, didn't speak a word of German. On my last visit to Berlin I was amazed how many foreigners are there and working in tech at the moment, just the stuff you pick up on the street in Friedrichshain is amazing, people talking about databases and pointers while walking past you on the street in English with all sorts of accents you can imagine.

The same is probably true for Amsterdam or Copenhagen, the dutch and the danish are usually excellent with languages.

I suck at all three.

My English is also terrible before that first cup of coffee in the morning too.

1. I was able to happily work and live in Spain for couple of months with no knowledge of Spanish language whatsoever. It certainly limits your choices to a certain degree (I worked for one UK-based company which sent me to Madrid and it would have been difficult to find any Spanish-speaking job if I had to) but it's easier than you would think.

Now I live in the Czech Republic and I regularly visit 'English meetings' (imagine weekly organized party where anybody who speaks English is invited) and I know many foreigners (some of them are my close friends) who happily live here for years without any knowledge of Czech language.

2. Children - oh, how many times I was envious of their incredible adaptability. If they are younger than 10 - wherever you go they will have new friends in two weeks and they will speak fluently with no accent in 6 months. I had seen it many times with children of my Czech/Slovak friends when I lived in UK and I can see that now with children of my foreign friends living in the Czech Rep. 8 years old daughter of my Spanish friends speaks Spanish, Russian, Czech and English without any noticeable accent - her family moves a lot and I believe she will benefit from that tremendously. Children are so good at this that they don't need language lessons - they just pick it up from their peers while playing in a sandpit.

An aside, but why did you move from Ireland to the US? I'm semi-seriously considering moving to the UK or Ireland, not out of any "argh america is literally hitler, i'm out" impetus, but to be closer to my girlfriend's family and for adventure.

I came here for a long vacation of sorts (quit dev job in Ireland, swore never work in IT again, first stop on taking a year out to travel the world...).

I was at a point where I'd over-stayed tourist visa and was getting ready to move on and then I met a girl...

You've only got half of the domino effect. Sure, it might become easy from a paperwork standpoint, but supply/demand will kick in and wages will drop.

In most countries recruiting immigrants is a royal pain in the ass. The main redeeming factor is that in the case where the immigrant's primary motivation is entry into the country (aka a work visa), the recruiter has an excellent negotiating position, especially when the visa in question keeps the immigrant bound to the sponsoring company.

Emigrating Americans are a little different, however. We're pretty highly paid in comparison to the rest of the world, and we're usually quite happy to stay in, or return to, our home country if we can't find something that suits us. Couple this with a good education and success in American industry, and this gives us a pretty powerful negotiating position in comparison with other immigrants. We still might not get anything comparable to an American salary, but at least we're able to negotiate rather than just having to accept whatever is handed to us.

This changes as soon as you remove the safety net. If there isn't a huge outflow of Americans, those who are emigrating because they truly want to leave America can just bluff their way through it. If there's a huge outflow however, this negotiating position will quickly be lost, at least in the countries to which most Americans would wish to be immigrants.

ironic...

fixed...thanks

Language is not an overwhelming barrier for a technology professional if approached correctly. Assuming you need to learn a major western European language, a good rule of thumb is 250 hours of work to become sufficiently conversational for shopping and travel, and between 500 and 750 hours to defend an opinion coherently on a day-to-day topic. (For a totally unrelated language, multiply by 4.) You'll still be at a linguistic disadvantage, but you'll be able to pick up the phone and deal with confused customer service representatives or whatever. Real ingrained fluency and an educated vocabulary takes longer, but most people are in excellent shape after a couple of years of immersion and a bunch of reading.

On the professional side, most HTLAL readers will be able to find jobs using large amounts of English. French programmers, for example, tend to read English fluently, attend talks in English (even at French conferences), and write some fraction of their code in English.

I learned this while trying to improve my technical French—I went shopping for French programming books, French programming podcasts, etc., and I would up finding (a) very few technical books, (b) French programming news aggregators with 60% of the links in English, (c) French programming conferences where every single speaker spoke English, and (d) lots of very friendly French programmers with English skills ranging from serviceable to excellent.

If you want to live in another country for a while, don't let language be the factor that stops you.

2) immersion will do wonders, and yes, we do speak English in other countries

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysg_FoWOue8

3) That's a tough one. Emigration isn't for everybody and this is one of the main reasons.

http://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/

Or, start out studying for a Master's degree first to get comfortable with the country. (Many are taught in English,and would be free. I can recommend certain programs if anyone is interested).

First step is to figure out if you prefer a University or a "Hochshule" -- kind of a foreign concept. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochschule).

The Universities come with more prestige, are larger, offer a wider variety of programs, and are more theoretically based. Therefore if you like computer science theory, taking classes that are math-intensive and could include things like algorithm optimization or building compilers, a University is the clear choice. I have heard only awesome things about TU Munich and TU Darmstadt, although any of the big TU's are probably great.

The other option, a Hochschule, is more practice based. Although there will be a mixture of theory and practice at both types, the distinction lies in the emphasis. So if you want to spend more time going straight to writing code, a Hochschule might be the better choice. The other advantages of a Hochschule are that they can be focused on a particular topic (if you are looking for something specific) and they definitely will have smaller classes. This means the professors know you, and you go directly to them for help for which they are often freely available (contrast with a Uni -- usually either go to a TA or have to schedule an appointment with the prof a week ahead through their secretary etc.)

I went to a Hochschule and was beyond pleased. There were only 20 people in my whole program so the individual help you can get from Professors was amazing. I actually studied Geoinformatics not Computer Science directly (and therefore searched for that specialty), but I think any of the larger cities will have good Comp Sci M.Sc. possibilities at their Hochschules.

In any case you can always visit ahead of time if you can to talk to the professors and sit in on classes. If that's not possible they are also very responsive to calls and emails... they often have preferred quotas for foreign students and love to recruit them.

Hope that helps!

I'm strongly considering it. I know enough German now to make a fool of myself there. Oh and at least in the software scene, and maybe tech in general, I've found Germans to be completely fluent in English, and some companies even state in their job ads that English is the language that they conduct business in. I was surprised to learn that outside of tech, things got more dicey. Many non-university-educated people did not speak English or spoke it with difficulty. Even a pharmacist I met really struggled. So for interactions outside of tech, a little German would help, and that's part of what the cultural "integration" classes offer. [edit: add ref to Blue Card]

1) Barriers to work and emigration

Not if you have enough money or a high enough level of education and income. Paying a lawyer to iron out some problems can help avoiding some traps too.

2) Language barriers

These can be overcome, but not having to deal with a lot of menu details in your life (i.e "how to apply for family aid with the new flat I am trying to rent"), going to places that have english speaking staff, doing as much as you can online etc. simplifies it a lot. But it costs more overall.

3) A lot of us have family support systems

This is the most difficult point, and no amount of money will resolve some problems (adaptation, home sickness, culture etc). But others like schooling your kids in an international school (it's about 8000~10000 dollars a year at least I think), have someone speaking your language take care of them etc. eases things a lot.

I don't think this kind of money can be taken for granted, and only a smallish portion of people are at these levels of wealth[1]. It was just to bring a point about how "simple" changing a country could be depending on your means.

[1] Otherwise if you can get a company or country to pay for these expenses, it's great for you. BTW I'm far from having that kind of money, so it's just hearsay and personal research.

But there's always going to be more people who want in than out, and I don't think there's ever be point anywhere in the near future in which this is going to change...

The vast majority of CCTV cameras in the UK are privately owned, on private property. What is the problem here? I don't know where this "surveillance state" idea came from but it's largely a myth.

Best case I have something like 4th or 5th cousins in Europe. Not someone I can just drop into their lives.

The #1 concern of someone leaving a country, is whether or not the receiving country is actually a better place. It is absolutely critical to understand the culture of where you're going to, if you expect to evaluate how you're gonna live.

I wouldn't consider that to be a huge barrier, necessarily.

The best way to learn a language, and overcome language barriers, is just to move there. Not to wait until you've got the language. Because, honestly? - If you're not speaking it every day, maintaining reasonable fluency is very difficult. You can't get to that sort of skill just putting in a couple of hours here and there in a piecemeal fashion. Even with the best of intentions, how many hours a day do you speak your new language?

The same factors that work against you in your own country work for you in another's though: It's not that hard to learn a new one if your old one is not particularly dominant in your life. When you, by necessity, go from practising a few hours a week to 12-15 hours every day; while being exposed to excellent speakers of the language, while being heavily incentivised to advance (because, hey, if you don't you'll be lonely and vulnerable) ; you get better at what you're doing very quickly.

So, I wouldn't be too bothered about getting the language particularly nailed down before moving somewhere - provided, of course, you don't immediately need to be working or something. If you do, then hiring a tutor and drilling the basics of the language in first is a good idea - you can get vastly superior results that way than by taking classes with others (who may not be as serious about it as you.)

Anyway. Better to go now, than to wait for them to take your passports away.

Moving country is real easy. It's something everyone should try for at least a year or two.

Real easy is something that only happens when your circumstances fall into some kind of normal bounds.

But, leaving is not really a simple solution, at all. It is both complex and unsatisfying. Thankfully, my wife and kid are with me (and btw, compared to Japan, the USA seems like a completely insane place to raise a kid) but I still have family there, not to mention friends, business interests, tax obligations, etc.

I feel like my country is occupied by an enemy force, and that feeling is hammered home every single time I fly home, within minutes of deplaning.

The US is occupied by an enemy force that they supported and elected. Every time another basic human right is violated by the legislative and executive branch those cheer. Does it matter that drunk driving kills more people per year in the US than acts of terror? Does it matter that more people die from prescription drug dispensation mistakes? Not to the mind of the scared American.

I've lived seven years in Japan. Even if I were to get Japanese citizenship, I wouldn't identify myself culturally as Japanese (and neither would Japanese think of me as Japanese).

Countries like the US separate cultural identity and citizenship, so having citizenship but still being seen as a foreigner might seem a bit strange at first. On the other hand, if I was to go to the US, there are certain cultural identities I could never have. For instance, as a white guy, I could never be treated as an African American, no matter how much I wanted to be or tried.

This hasn't stopped a great many white guys from trying!

Yes. It's very different to what you get, for example, in Australia. Or most parts of Europe. Yes, you'll probably be a gaijin forever, even if you get naturalized (and renounce to your other nationality). But there's a huge difference between what the japanese are, and have always been, and xenophobia. Of course you get a different treatment unless you show them what you know and your respect, but it boils down to the kind of society it is and the fact that you're, at first sight, different from them. But different, not worse.

I had previously spent 7 months in the US and I had lived in UK for 2.5 years and now I live in the Czech Republic. I guess this is very subjective but I believe that for example this country currently offers way more freedom than the "land of free" or UK. It has its downsides but not as many as an average citizen of western country would probably think. You could live pretty comfortable "nice apartment, designer clothes and BMW" life in Prague if you wish so (not that I do). It's not how Americans usually imagine Eastern Europe and because of the past people are more sensitive about government intrusion and the government is weak - do not conflate Eastern Europe with Russia with that weird authoritarian shit (the anti-gay law etc.) - this is completely different world here.

Just my $0.02 - it's about personal priorities. And it still feels weird just saying this... given what I thought 25 years ago.

EDIT: I should not have said 'countries that were NOT part of Soviet Union' - certainly not all of them, for example I hear really nice things about Estonia and I am sure that not all ex-Soviet countries are like Russia.

I base this mostly on what I see around me but I just tried to quickly google something and what I've found seems to support that - for example http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-hom...

I don't know about xenophobia - I don't see it but if there is something above the average it would probably be related to the fact that people are not used to 'xeno' elements because this has always been pretty homogeneous and closed society.

Homophobes, well, not sure how it's in Czech Republic, but say Poland makes Bible Belt look like a bunch of agnostic wusses.

And also Eastern Europe is apparently not as homogeneous as I made it to be - there are big differences for example between catholic countries like Poland and atheist countries like Czech Republic (tolerance to homosexuality, abortion and stuff like that are strongly related to religious views). Despising Jews? I have seen it way more in Western Europe than here.

And if you are black or Hindu or Pakistani please excuse that some people have some bias... please try to understand that this has been very closed society and up until recently there were no black or Hindu or Pakistani people at all. People could not travel during communist regime... there was basically no opportunity to learn tolerance to different cultures etc. Yes, there are some racists here (like everywhere else) but I believe that Czech people are generally above average tolerant. But I am obviously biased.

You see, the US culture is very, very fake. Americans are fake. They'll smile in your face, tell you how much they love you, and then talk sht about you behind your back and hate just as much as a stereotypical Pole will. The only difference is that in Poland people will tell you stuff in your face while in the US it is all love, sensitivity, smiles and roses and everybody is just trained to talk the talk. But they never walk the walk. The problem with Poles is they had enough communists telling them what to say to be ignorant to the whole political correctness thing.

My guess is that if we could get into people's heads you would see they think probably the same stuff in both places. When for that example they see a gay couple kissing in public. The difference is that in the US they will pretend they're fine with it (and then show you their hate when voting), while in Poland - yeah - they'll openly tell you what they think about you.

Dear LekkoscPiwa, did I get it right?

I am sure you did not mean it that way but it might be interesting to know that many people would be seriously offended here if you included Russians into the perception of 'them' - people from outside of the Eastern block do not see internal differences important to people who lived inside - like the fact that 'Rusáci' occupied us for many years and are still perceived as the enemy by many people here. To make a simplified example to make it understandable - imagine someone talking about 'you western countries' and including example of 'your' behaviour - Nazi Germany.

The fact that Russia is possibly even more xenophobic than Poland doesn't change much.

I'm Belarussian myself, so well aware of sentiments in the 'hood in either direction. The nuance is not lost on me :)

Go to Arizona or California and tell me if it is difficult to find people who hate Latinos who don't make even such a big minorities there as Jews used to in pre-war Poland.

This has nothing to do with Jews specifically. Look at this how Arabs are treated in France (Paris) or London.

Once a group that has different language, religion, customs, and its own ghettos is large enough - my guess about 1/3 of total population - the natives will react the way the do. Poland or US, doesn't matter.

It wasn't a simple solution or an easy decision. They just rammed through millimeter-wave machines here, too. And you can't opt out.

http://travelsecure.infrastructure.gov.au/bodyscanners/faq.a...

I see it's random? Sorry I'd rather ask somebody who's been there then misread the carefully crafted Q&A.

Edit: Also, moving when you have family (partner, kids), becomes even more complex and stressful. It's simply not a viable option for many.

What leaving does is control how far the pendulum swings. Imagine if Fermi hadn't left Italy? Or consider Lise Meitner who didn't leave Germany when everyone else did (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lise_Meitner). In her words, "It was not only stupid but also very wrong that I did not leave at once."

The part you're conveniently forgetting is at what cost?

Sure, the pendulum may swing back the other way eventually but how many lives are going to be destroyed during these unnecessary oscillations.

In this case, the pendulum can remain autocratic far longer than your life is worth it - if you feel that fighting is not possible, perhaps the best move is to worry about your own (family's) safety first.

I think that is a great metaphor here. If the government no longer respects the people, then the right approach is to stand tall and say things loudly. If they do then compliance is better.

Actually, it's not a solution. If everyone who questions such ineffective and intrusive procedures leave, the ones who imposed them on your fellow citizens win.

It's not my country, but I like it a lot. And it deeply saddens me to see what is happening to it.

May not be a terrible strategy going forward if the US starts looking like an end-stage Weimer Republic, especially since people will have to flee anyway.

On the contrary, I'd expect it to worsen. Engineers and technophiles are some of the most outspoken groups opposed to the surveillance state and other abuses of power, especially technological ones. They're also the groups most likely to invent technological workarounds to abuses of power.

> How would they continue to pay for it?

The same way it's being paid for now: massive debt.

Yes, but it doesn't seem to me like they have any impact whatsoever. Maybe I'm incorrect, though.

> The same way it's being paid for now: massive debt.

If the US economy were to crash (which it would if 50% of STEM workers leave, I think), I'm not sure if US debt would be worth anything.

More generally speaking, though, the US military and intelligence system is very highly dependent on highly skilled STEM workers. I suspect that there is already a labor shortage affecting them, and I suspect that, via their shenanigans, they are running a serious risk of seriously crippling their capabilities in the upcoming decades.

Among my colleagues in grad school, I was one of minority that was seriously willing to consider work in the military sector as a career, and now even I'm not.

And while the US could implement many aspects of fascism (particularly government control of industry that is nomially help privately, which is alredy the case for telecom), a war for global domination is not likely one of them.

This reminds me of the NSA recruitment session at the University of Washington (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVIHvbYYxJo) where the NSA agent tried to tell a skeptical student that she should not keep asking embarrassing questions, because even if an NSA job was not right for her, she should not prevent other students from joining the agency. In other words, it's fine to disagree with turning your country into a police state, you don't have to join the secret police, but don't interfere with your fellow citizens who want to profit from joining the police force.

"when bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." --Edmund Burke

Asia? good luck, the individual has awesome rights, try talking badly about the thai royalty for example. go on, please do.

Europe? Just moved from there, great place. But if you're looking for the right to act out your individual freedom (which ends where it impacts the freedom of ours), then you're in for a suprise. US constitution does not apply there. No amendments. No pleading the fifth or other stuff.

Maybe Somalia is the place for you. No one will force you through a milliwave scanner there.

Freer in terms of personal freedom, civil rights, economic freedom.

In the US you have:

1. Forced to sign up for the draft.

2. Your "Army Reserves" and "National Guard" DEPLOYED to fun places like Afghanistan on a rotating schedule. No they did not agree to it, reserves are meant to defend a country when it is attacked, not to be pulled into a regional conflicts. Canada for example, has reserves, but they arn't in Afghanistan unless they volunteer to.

3. Every call and email monitored.

4. A militarized police state.

5. Massive hidden intelligence budgets.

6. Drug sales by intelligence forces.

7. 5% of GDP just on the military, let alone "intelligence" and "security" (NSA / CIA / TSA / etc).

8. Private prisons with bribed judges.

9. 1% of men in jail, CURRENTLY (with more on parole).

10. 0.5% of women in jail.

11. Domestic drones.

12. Laws against using cryptography without registering it with the NSA.

13. The most aggressive fingerprint collection system out of any country in the world.

14. Unbearable licensing for alcohol, firearms, businesses, hair dressers (state dependent).

15. Project mockingbird (seriously wtf is the point of a "free press" if your own CIA has infiltrated it).

16. A do not fly list that has millions of people on it none of which can contest the reasons why. This is made worse since it was held up by the courts (under the guise that they can always take a train). In Canada we have less than a thousand people and there is a mechanism for challenging it.

America only feels free while you are there and under the radar.

you don't like the draft in the US, which never gets executed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Switzerland "Compulsory military service concerns all male Swiss citizens, with women serving voluntarily. Males usually receive initial orders at the age of 18 for military conscription eligibility screening. About two-thirds of young Swiss men are found suitable for service, while alternative service exists for those found unsuitable."

you cite rules about firearms and business as a downside in the US? the most hilarious thing ever. come over to Europe, please, and try to buy a handgun. plus open a business.

no fucking clue about the world, but spewing BS.

talk to leftist/liberals in the countries you've listed, please do. they all complain about the very same things. we have had biometric passports here for a while now, etc.

the big difference between the US and Europe? The US has the means to actually execute their ideas. the EU is slowly moving towards the US model by joining forces and sharing resources.

The draft in the states was used in Vietnam.

Opening a business in ALL of Europe is hard (especially France) but in most of the countries I listed it is easy. Stop grouping all of Europe into one big thing.

Biometric passports are horrible, but the US requires it for certain forms of visitation.

and for the record, I am European, Austrian in fact.

and the US is now requiring it's own citizens to use the biometric passport? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometric_passport#Countries_us...

now how about that.

"NL Passports issued from 21 September 2009 include fingerprints. Dutch identity cards are lookalike versions of the holder's page of the passport and contain the same biometric information."

You're misinformed and wrong, but you'll never admit it. Whatever.

In fact, I think the move to not draft those signed up (forcibly, I agree) is the reason that some of the other points (e.g.: #2,#3) are even issues - if the burden of war were spread in a regular manner (and forcibly) on the US populace, there would be very little tolerance for war... all those armchair soldiers buying guns would be off fighting a war or suffering through a family member getting killed/wounded involuntarily (just like the poor citizens of the country that's being occupied).

The US has traditionally relied more on rules, and you are correct in citing that the US Constitution and Bill of Rights still represent the most comprehensive set of rules in the world guarding personal freedom. In turn, you also have "enemy combatants", "extraordinary rendition", "enhanced interrogation techniques", "national security letters", and "corporate personhood" that all represent ways in which people have gamed the system. Rules, alone, are not enough. You also need people.

(Consequently, where I live now there has always been much greater reliance on people over rules, and as such corruption is a major problem... Striking the right balance can be difficult.)

This is an honest question — I believe things to be exactly the opposite, but I'll correct my belief if I'm wrong.

A lot of countries are scalating in surveillance because there is the perception that US is trying to desestabilize a lot of governments with this disclosed programs. And, of course, could be for real, so the country where you land could eventually be desestabilized in a few years, and things will get ugly (look at middle east for a hint).

And, as a foreigner. your privacy on the global internet is ensured to not be respected by US intelligence agencies, at all. Not that it would make a difference in a few years, but still is something to take into account.

The only place on the world where you can have a chance to revert this trend is US, staying, voting, being active, chances are pretty slim, but better than the zero you get if are outside.

Amsterdam Schipol has (a lot of) scanning machines as well.

Germany has more freedom in certain areas and less freedom in others. (you can't take your empty bottles to the recycling bins on Sunday for example)

Schiphol, El Prat, Marco Polo, Dublin, da Vinci, Kloten and Munich get me in and out without any fuss at all. Though security at Schiphol was about what you'd contend with at Dulles.

Domodedovo and Koltsovo are very mediocre and busy, but function. You might get harassed by security, you might not. Who knows? It's Russia after all.

Kuwait was easy-in easy-out, but basic airport services were generally a mess, due mostly to rampant queue hopping that none of the employees put a stop to.

My consistent best anywhere is traveling to South Korea. I would replace every airport on the planet with Inchon Int'l if I could.

In the U.S. Washington DC-Dulles and Denver are pretty smooth operations most days, JFK and LaGuardia are crowded but function and security doesn't really harass you, Charleston, SC is one of the easiest to get in and out of (even internationally). San Francisco, Sea-Tac and Portland are..."alright". LAX kinda sucks. O'Hare is a nightmare almost on the scale of Heathrow and Atlanta is a mess most days with what must be strictest security on the planet.

Funny, my only complaint about Toronto was that the immigration officials tried hard enough to avoid charging me the work permit fee that it wasted a bunch of our time.

Best experiences though have been Singapore and Kuala Lumpur. Worst experiences have been Houston and JFK NYC. Sea-Tac is ok aside from the body scanners.

I was surprised to find that leaving Tegel in Berlin was easy as can be, short lines, quick trip through the metal detector. The entry process at Sea-Tac was another story though. It took forever. You got grilled, you got the German Shepherd dog sniffing your crotch, and you had to wait for all your bags to be x-rayed. Some of the agents seemed to be behaving in a very rude way, in particular I remember one agent seemingly being a real jerk to some poor old guy who didn't speak English well. I remember thinking how bad an impression of the US that the foreign visitors in line must be forming. I was at that moment embarrassed to be a citizen.

[edit: %s/x-ray/metal detector/]

I'm kind of scratching my head here, because that doesn't jive with my experiences (and I do have plenty of experience of entering Canada there as a non-Canadian -- in fact, I've done it twice in the past month). Some times of day the lines are a bit longer than others, but I just don't know of anything else that I'd consider to be bad about it.

I've since decided not to fly into North America via Toronto from now on it was so bad.

I dearly love my Canadian neighbors so I hope they've since straightened it out.

The funny thing is, in CDG, what was bad was the immigration exit control. Entry was a breeze and I was asked exactly zero questions even having presented a non-EU passport.

One time I think I timed it at around 2 and a half hours to get processed. No particular questions, just the usual look at the passport, look at you, stamp off you go. But there were probably a thousand people passing through the control point.

I don't know Germany but it seems you're suggesting Germany curtails freedom in the name of economic efficiency, but not as much as the US for "national security" and what not.

Not even that. I believe it has to do with Ruhezeit (Quiet Time.) It's just that rattling the bottles is noisy, so it is more like curtailing freedom in the name of neighbors' freedom to have their Ruhe.

Stores were closed on Sundays, things closed earlier in the evenings.. We survived, we planned ahead..

Now everything is open all the time. Malls are open on Christmas day, even on New Year's Day!

When do people have time to spend time together, to relax, to not be consumers but be people?

I kind of wish stores were still closed on Sundays..

As a traveler, Germany on Sundays simply sucks.

International travellers tend to arrive by plane or train (as Derbasti says), you can buy something from there. Or from a restaurant.

The only problem you would have is with supermarkets away from the train station or airport.

I asked my hotelier about it and he just shrugged and told me where to get some kebab three towns over.

In Dublin they open on Sunday, but close at 6pm on weekdays

The best solutions would be that all passengers refuse to take the scan.

[1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/06/us/tsa-expands-duties-beyo...

Thinking of other European countries, in the UK, signs at Gatwick say that if you are selected for a full-body scan and decline to use the machine, you will not be allowed to travel.

Here is a Dutch government site about the scanners confirming that travelers are allowed to opt out:

http://english.nctv.nl/themes_en/themes-a-z/Security_and_civ...

Most people have lives. If you've ever seen people struggling to get by in what looks like a bombed out hellhole, remember this. People in Zimbabwe, Lebanon, and even Detroit are suffering, but only because for them the alternative is even worse: Being disconnected.

I've lived overseas many times, but my simple advice when making life choices is to ask yourself wether you are running _to_ something (an amazing opportunity) or _away_ from something else.

Advocating for change takes stamina and patience. There are many good reasons to leave the US. And, like other nations, the US has some large and seemingly unsolvable problems. I just don't believe that the current state of airport security is immutable.

I'll concede that 9/11 had far-reaching impacts, predicated on our own fears and overreactions. What I won't concede is my home.

I did exactly that during the second term of Bush Jr. Left for Canada, and haven't been back since. The longer I'm gone, the more I don't want to go back. I miss my guns, but I'd miss my rights more.

My relatives have to experience egregious security checks while coming to visit me, but once they're here, their human rights are respected. Many of them (NRA members, even) are thinking of moving here for good.

Obama convinced me to come back (I know) - but I don't have the same feeling now that he's betrayed us as well.

We have to stay and fight. We need more than one of a hundred of us being as brave as the poster. We need it to be clear that we are going to vote anyone out that keeps this apparatus running unchanged.

Leaving just makes it easy to dismiss us.

Perhaps that could be a great way for us to protest. If lots of US and UK (Aussies? Kiwis? Canadians?) citizens/subjects applied for political asylum in countries like Russia, would that send a message? At the very least, it would be bloody amusing!!!

So to be clear you think it's simpler to leave the country rather than go through a machine?

Person 1 - "point out problem that should be fixed". Person 2 - "give up".

Leaving doesn't solve anything. You think TSA gives a crap? No, they get paid either way. You think airlines give a crap? No, they already got your money, and now they have an empty seat that they can resell (via the overbooking process).

The real solution is to sue.

If you have other concerns, you're likely to be sadly disappointed by overt corruption, intolerance, censorship, extreme taxation, or other ways your freedom can be violated.

It's not at all that simple.