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Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by mseepgood on Saturday May 11, 2013 @10:59AM (#5690779)
I fail to see a single use case for terminal transparency. It makes text less readable.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by dsr_ on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:10AM (#5690815)
Allowing people to choose their own text colors and backgrounds is inefficient and can make text less readable. There ought to be a small set of allowed combinations that have optimal contrast, referred to by simple names.

Allowing people to choose their own fonts can make text less readable. There are only 3 or 4 reasonable choices anyway, so all others should be dropped.

Allowing themes to change window decorations can cause confusion and reduce usability. Let's drop that.

Having more than one window manager available is inefficient and means that more developer time is wasted in duplicative effort. Only one window manager is needed.

Having more than one web browser is inefficient and means duplicated effort. Drop all other browsers.

Having more than one Linux distribution is inefficient.

Having more than one OS is inefficient.

Having more than one system architecture causes needless work.

Supporting any NIC that isn't the best makes the system less efficient. Drop inferior NICs.

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by mseepgood on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:18AM (#5690853)
I agree with most of your points. Within one product there should not be too much choice. But choice between different products i.e. Linux distributions or operating systems is ok IMHO.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by acc00 on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:49AM (#5690964)
I am pretty sure the comment you are replying to is satire.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by pekk on Saturday May 11, 2013 @12:17PM (#5691066)
Satire on GNOME, or Apple?

edit: I think the question is relevant, because part of what is going on here is that projects like Ubuntu and GNOME are taking cues from Apple's success

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by mpyne on Saturday May 11, 2013 @02:59PM (#5691685)
Apple supports both transparency and blur on their terminal app, AFAIK...
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by kefka on Saturday May 11, 2013 @12:08PM (#5691032)
Having more than one user causes needless user related problems.

Go KDE.

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by jf22 on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:35AM (#5690906)
> Allowing themes to change window decorations can cause confusion and reduce usability. Let's drop that.

Like apple did with the iphone?

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by cheald on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:39AM (#5690926)
And as it turns out, that customizability is something people like and want and is a reason people enjoy android.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by mseepgood on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:46AM (#5690954)
People like iOS more than Android.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by setrofim_ on Saturday May 11, 2013 @12:34PM (#5691127)
Nope:

http://techland.time.com/2013/04/16/ios-vs-android/

Depending on which metric you chose, either iOS or Android is ahead. However, the data is not conclusive enough to warrant your statement. If anything, it seems to be leaning in the opposite direction.

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by ptomato on Saturday May 11, 2013 @01:14PM (#5691275)
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by chrisgw on Saturday May 11, 2013 @12:09PM (#5691038)
Some people like Android more. Some people like iOS more.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by JamesMcMinn on Saturday May 11, 2013 @12:14PM (#5691059)
Some people.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by jkrems on Saturday May 11, 2013 @01:09PM (#5691255)
...the reason they enjoyed MySpace. </troll>
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by Joeboy on Saturday May 11, 2013 @12:53PM (#5691197)
mseepgood's argument is that terminal transparency always makes things worse. None of your ironic statements illustrates a comparable case, or constitutes a rebuttal to that claim. I can't see a worthwhile use case for terminal transparency either, but I'm happy to be corrected.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by nemo1618 on Saturday May 11, 2013 @01:05PM (#5691240)
Not 100% relevant, but there are quite a few people who like to keep inactive windows semi-transparent.

At any rate, the only reason you need is user choice! User choice is always a valid reason. Removing customization options is rarely the proper thing to do.

Of course, in this case, users still have a choice: they can choose to install another terminal! Which it seems many of them have done.

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by waltz on Saturday May 11, 2013 @04:15PM (#5691952)
Transparent terminals are awesome. With the right amount of transparency it can get a very cool background while still being readable.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by mpyne on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:23AM (#5690871)
Are you sure you're aware of how it's implemented?

In a good terminal (e.g. konsole) the text remains fully opaque while only the background becomes transparent.

This is more difficult than simply setting a window-wide opacity, which is why the terminal must have its own support for it.

So you maintain the readability benefit while still being able to see major changes to the window behind the terminal if necessary (something which I have found occasionally useful).

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by 0x0 on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:35AM (#5690905)
Agree 100%. Even OS X's built-in Terminal.app offers this; there's even a blur effect on the transparent background which is pretty awesome.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by joosters on Saturday May 11, 2013 @12:54PM (#5691201)
Yes! I never understood having transparent terminals before, but one day I discovered that configuring a slight amount of transparency, together with the blur, can be really useful. The terminal still stays clear to read.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by amouat on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:10AM (#5690813)
I quite commonly use it when I want to see an application behind the terminal e.g. I might be editing code in vim whilst the application or browser window is open in the background.

Also, it just looks nice! By having an appropriate background image and playing with the opacity it has a negligible affect on readability.

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by keithpeter on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:08AM (#5690804)
I happen to agree with you and I don't use any degree of transparency in terminal windows.

I suspect the issue at hand is the removal of a feature that was available previously without explicit discussion or explanation.

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by ISL on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:20AM (#5690860)
Transparency makes me happy.

With aterm (transparent only to backgrounds, not other windows) and an imagemagick script to shade backgrounds, I get to have pretty much any photo I want as a background, and it doesn't impact my work.

Only exception: astronomical photos with lots of stars. Very hard to resolve a white '.' character.

Shading script is short. Here it is for reference:

  #!/bin/bash
  # should set my background and darken the image for aterm
  # imagemagick documentation here:
  # http://www.imagemagick.org/script/command-line-options.php#fx

  convert $@ -fx 'u/2.0' ~/.shadedbackground.jpg
  fbsetbg -c ~/.shadedbackground.jpg
And, my aterm options:

  aterm -tr -sl 10000 -fg white -bg black

Terminals that permit a dynamic view of obscured windows are also occasionally useful. For example - keeping an eye on small process-monitoring gui while continuing to code.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by berkut on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:24AM (#5690874)
Not if it's done subtly (5-8% transparency) - if you've got multiple windows in a screen, it greatly enhances context in terms of what windows are where.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by jasonlotito on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:19AM (#5690856)
How can I use a full screen terminal window and still read documentation in that same screen?
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by elithrar on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:37AM (#5690919)
> I fail to see a single use case for terminal transparency. It makes text less readable.

I've always liked it for the ability to see/read documentation on a window behind the terminal. Specific use cases include referring to man pages, API docs and the like where I can't just copy+paste something and/or need to check config.conf against the settings/defaults in online docs.

It's especially useful on smaller screens where I don't have the luxury of having a 80-char wide terminal side-by-side with a browser window (and avoiding horizontal scrolling).

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by wode on Saturday May 11, 2013 @06:30PM (#5692348)
You want a user case? To read code, check API information or shortcuts through the window you're working in. My screen estate at work is severely limited. Also, it just looks better, and that matters, because I spend a lot of time in terminal windows.

I haven't been a Gnome user for many years though... Exactly for reasons like this. They have removed a few features too many. IIRC, last time I tried to log in with a Gnome session to see if anything had improved, I couldn't turn off cursor blinking in the terminal.

I've been using Linux since way before Gnome existed, and it does piss me off that (from the perspective of a power user) it's less usable now after all those years than it was in the first few years of its existence. Gnome turned on its own users long ago, and I think the year of the Linux desktop might be further now than ever, especially for the Gnome project in its current form. It's an illusion to attract new users if even the old ones don't want to use it anymore.

I wish the Gnome project good luck, but they are clearly sailing a different sea.

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by eterps on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:17AM (#5690847)
If you use a big screen your brain will be able to refocus faster when you look from one side to the screen to the other and back again when there are more recognizable patterns in the background.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by riobard on Saturday May 11, 2013 @12:00PM (#5691007)
Any study proving this?
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by mattacular on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:08AM (#5690807)
Do you also fail to see a single use case for politeness? The ticket responder could have taken like ~2 minutes to explain the decision to remove it instead of being exceedingly rude.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by maaku on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:11AM (#5690819)
Small screens.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by deathcakes on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:08AM (#5690803)
Apparently nor do the Gnome devs. Shame they don't seem interested in listening to justifications.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by diffsir on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:11AM (#5690817)

  I have a cheat sheet open behind my terminal, for say c-vim keybindings.
  Instead of switching windows continuously
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=660711#c8

RTFA it does not make text less readable: https://bug698544.bugzilla-attachments.gnome.org/attachment....

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by mseepgood on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:25AM (#5690879)
> I have a cheat sheet open behind my terminal, for say c-vim > keybindings. Instead of switching windows continuously

Drag the windows side by side with the snap feature.

> RTFA it does not make text less readable

The text would be more readable with an opaque background.

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by paranoiacblack on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:39AM (#5690927)
Side by side so I have less editing space? I have emacs and terminator split 5 or 6 ways and optionally fullscreened if needed. Being able to read documentation, cheat sheets, watch videos, live reload, and handle issues while not switching windows through my terminal is a giant productivity boost. Side-by-side just makes both parts less enjoyable, especially on a small laptop screen.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by justinhj on Saturday May 11, 2013 @01:27PM (#5691319)
I do the same. I make notes on a web page, book or slide deck in emacs by setting transparency. If someone came along and removed it to just because of internal code changes I don't care about I would also be angrily posting on bug reports. http://justinsboringpage.blogspot.ca/2009/10/transparent-ema...
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by sbrother on Saturday May 11, 2013 @01:53PM (#5691387)
I do the same, and setting terminal transparency is usually the first change I make to a new box after importing my .emacs. With your terminal split at least 4 ways stuffing it over on one side of the screen is a non-starter. And even with multiple monitors, I find I can work faster if I can glance at the API docs without having to change my gaze, rather than having to find my place in code again each time I look away.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by 0x0 on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:31AM (#5690896)
That screenshot attachment you posted has much less readable text in the _NET_WM_WINDOW_OPACITY example?
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by yew on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:58AM (#5690996)
That's the 'suggested fix' for this issue. It doesn't actually fix anything, obviously - it just makes everything transparent.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by static_typed on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:03AM (#5690789)
Surely choice is good? I fail to see a single use for comments that dismiss the right of optionality for others.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by mseepgood on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:07AM (#5690799)
No, choice is poison to a software program and should be avoided unless there are very good reasons to justify an additional option.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by lambda on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:23AM (#5690870)
You know, I understand wanting to put a little pressure back on the "make everything configurable" crowd; there are a lot of software engineers who go a bit overboard on the "just make it an option" approach to design, and then wind up with big, bloated, buggy software that tries to do everything but fails at most of it and is frustrating to configure.

However, "choice is poison" is a rather extreme over-compensation for this problem. Sometimes, options really do provide value. And many times, if they are designed correctly, they don't substantially increase cost; if the features are orthogonal and implemented independently, the additional complexity is only linear with the number of features, not quadratic or worse as happens if they are too interrelated.

I understand that we want to get away from the "you need to spend hours customizing your environment to make it usable" approach to design that plagues some open source project, but going to the other extreme and saying that "choice is poison" is just as bad.

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by keithpeter on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:16AM (#5690842)
I would suggest that retaining an option needed by some users with unusual perceptual requirements is a 'very good reason'

(Personally, I do leave my XFCE4 desktop on default settings, but I do alter defaults in some packages)

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by jodrellblank on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:33AM (#5690902)
If it was the only terminal emulator, there would be a good reason.

The person in the link commenting "PUT IT BACK EVERY OTHER TERMINAL EMULATOR HAS IT" is more baffling.

Both wanting choice and options, but at the same time not wanting to have to change when there are other options.

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by keithpeter on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:42AM (#5690940)
"If it was the only terminal emulator, there would be a good reason."

Gnome Terminal may (effectively) be the only terminal emulator available to you if you do not have rights to install software or to change default software.

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by jodrellblank on Saturday May 11, 2013 @01:51PM (#5691383)
If you are in an environment where you have to take what you are given, then whinging to the software developers to add in the functionality your boss won't let you have seems like the wrong move.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by mpyne on Saturday May 11, 2013 @03:02PM (#5691702)
Yes, you're right. They should apparently be whining to their boss to use something other than GNOME instead instead of trying to fix their work environment at the source.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by jodrellblank on Saturday May 11, 2013 @03:31PM (#5691815)
I'm assuming the said boss would not have approved the update to GNOME without first checking that all the features they require the workforce to have in order to work, are present.

Then yes, they should.

If the boss gives you lemons, you don't go to the lemon tree and ask if it can make lemons that read email, browse NFS shares and change screensaver settings. You go to your boss and say "just-lemons isn't good enough".

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by vacri on Sunday May 12, 2013 @02:41AM (#5693391)
When you cook, do you just give people a bowl of nutrient paste, saying "that's all you need to remain functional"? But we'd like something with texture and flavour. "So what, it's not like those things are needed to be functional. You can get by without them."
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by DanBC on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:58AM (#5690993)
This is a baffling opinion to have on HN.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by cturner on Saturday May 11, 2013 @12:37PM (#5691141)
There's plenty of precedent. The plan9 guys were very explicit about not having variable colours in acme. The suckless.org team say that you can configure whatever you like, but only through changing the source code. BeOS aimed to have no configuration and good defaults.

I'd rather have something that was well thought through and is internally consistant than a grab-bag of customisation, none of which coexists well - like most linux desktops.

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by Joeboy on Saturday May 11, 2013 @01:04PM (#5691237)
I'm not baffled. Giving people fewer options seems like a pretty popular paradigm these days. We tried "Give people choice" in the '90s and '00s, and it turned out people were mostly unimpressed. "Opinionated software" is the paradigm du jour.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by marssaxman on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:14AM (#5690829)
Choice may be good, but it always comes at a cost. Each choice takes time to design, to code, to test, to document, to support, and most importantly to learn. Software designers should aim to offer the smallest number of options they can get away with.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by jasonlotito on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:21AM (#5690863)
> Software designers should aim to offer the smallest number of options they can get away with.

That's should always be second to providing solutions. Solve the problems that transparency solved first. If you aren't aware of the problems that transparency in terminals provided, then removing it is purely an act of ignorance.

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by mseepgood on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:45AM (#5690951)
The thing is transparency didn't solve any problem. It was just a nerdiness thing.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by arjie on Saturday May 11, 2013 @12:16PM (#5691062)
This is a classic example of someone who doesn't use a feature being unable to see the use cases for it.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by jasonlotito on Saturday May 11, 2013 @12:29PM (#5691112)
You are ignorant of the problems it solved.

> How can I use a full screen terminal window and still read documentation in that same screen?

I've asked this question. I've yet to see a reply.

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by richardwhiuk on Saturday May 11, 2013 @01:03PM (#5691227)
Try one of a dozen solutions which split your screen into two parts? screen and tmux both do this?

If your documentation isn't viewable in terminal, why do you insist of having a full screen all the time - resize your terminal? If you do insist of having a full screen all the time, why are you using gnome-terminal at all?

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by jasonlotito on Saturday May 11, 2013 @03:35PM (#5691835)
I already use tmux. It doesn't solve the problem in the least.

> why do you insist of having a full screen all the time

Because I'm actively working in my terminal. Why should I waste space moving something somewhere else, especially away from where I'm looking?

> resize your terminal?

Maybe you like limiting the size of your workspace, but I don't.

> If you do insist of having a full screen all the time,

Because I'm not always in the terminal, but when I'm in the terminal, I don't see a reason to limit the space it uses.

Anyways, not you are being willfully ignorant. Rather than try and understand the problem, and how transparency was being used, you are being dismissive. You aren't trying to help in the least.

So, unless you want to take the time to understand the problem, why waste your time, and others, adding a comment that is essentially worthless?

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by keithpeter on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:56AM (#5690984)
How do you know?

1) Have you searched the literature on perceptual defects and enablement? If so I'd love to see references.

2) Have you consulted widely on mailing lists that Gnome Terminal users use and checked use cases? If so, can you link to those? I'd like to see them.

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by mratzloff on Saturday May 11, 2013 @12:35PM (#5691131)
> The thing is transparency didn't solve any problem. It was just a nerdiness thing.

Um, do they know their market? I doubt grandma is clammoring for transparency in her terminal windows but she's not the primary user profile for Gnome, you know?

Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by chumpalump on Saturday May 11, 2013 @04:10PM (#5691935)
Nerdiness is evolution. Flowers are colorful and fancy to attract bees. Transparent terminals are colourful and fancy to attract hackers (aka users).
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by keithpeter on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:20AM (#5690857)
In new software, I can see your point. This issue relates to a removal of a previously available option.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by wereHamster on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:07AM (#5690800)
Linux is not about choice (http://www.redhat.com/archives/rhl-devel-list/2008-January/m...) was posted to HN a few days ago.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by mseepgood on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:16AM (#5690841)
Also relevant: http://www106.pair.com/rhp/free-software-ui.html This text is the unofficial Gnome UI manifesto. If you don't agree with it then you probably will never be happy with Gnome and should use something else.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by tobiasu on Saturday May 11, 2013 @12:09PM (#5691040)
The personal opinion of Adam Jackson is the ultimate and only truth.
Re:Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in termi... by mattacular on Saturday May 11, 2013 @11:11AM (#5690818)
And still, a lot of seemingly smart people are baffled by the fact that Linux has failed to penetrate the mainstream OS market for personal computing...