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Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by arnarbi on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:28PM (#5528639)
I'm very skeptical that this is an improvement (but kudos for thinking outside the box). Here's something that was intended as constructive criticism, but maybe ended up more as just criticism:

Removing the key signature is not a good idea. When playing in G major, the sharp accidental on the Fs is not put at the beginning of the line just to avoid printing it in the score. Rather, it fits there because when I play in G major, I put my brain in G major mode, in which case it would be distracting to have an accidental on every single F.

Similarly, writing a special symbol for each pitch seems it would get heavily in the way of transposing on the fly. The position already encodes the pitch, and the ABCDEFG names kind of get in the way of understanding the melody, which is more about relative intervals than absolute values.

And what does the little parenthesis on the length line mean? For half- and whole notes it seems to mean it doubles the length (a quarternote with one or two parentheses), but for sixteenth-notes it seems to indicate that it halves it (an eighth-note with a single parenthesis mark).

I also question removing the stem of a note. I have a feeling that is one of the stronger queues for reading rhythm. Spacing is not very important, and indeed especially in dense scores for solo instruments, that need to have few page turns, notes are often just spaced as tightly as possible.

The author also recognized that the beams on eighth- and sixtheenth-notes (e.g. in the left hand) are very important rhythmic cues, and replaced them with that horizontal thing with the arrow on the left. This is a bit hard to read though when there are no stems to link them to the note and the pitch interval is big.

The part about it being easy to write by hand looks good, and made me feel good at first. Then you realize that hand-written traditional notation is quite different from typeset one, just like handwritten text is very different from printed text. Drawing all the little balls and filling in the halfmoon C, up and down thingies seems tedious, when traditionally one writes a simple dot or a little slash instead of the note head.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by icarus_drowning on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @07:14PM (#5528841)
What you mean by this is that the key signature tells you what the tonic is, and, conversely, what the supertonic, mediant, subdominant, dominant, etc. are.

Whenever I teach key signatures this is the biggest thing I try to impart: key signatures are more than just accidentals, they define the roles each pitch plays.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by lmg643 on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @08:43PM (#5529188)
Agreed. Hummingbird seems like a solution in search of a problem. I could see someone trying to learn to sight read music, get frustrated with how it is "broken" and then invent something like this, which seems far less clear to me than the old way.

sight reading is hard because of the cognitive work involved with translating, say, eight notes at a time into the appropriate finger-patterns, rhythm and pace; or translating fewer notes but at a faster rate. i don't see this making it easier.

i'm not sure why they would bother. anyone who finds sight reading too tough, might not really ever need sheet music, whether they do it by ear, or just listen to music. my friend has a disklavier - incredible. robot plays the piano better than i ever could. it makes me wonder why i still bother to try and play, and then i remind myself that every feeble attempt i make is intrinsically satisfying to me, so i keep trying.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by noonespecial on Thursday April 11, 2013 @12:28AM (#5529996)
I could see someone trying to learn to sight read music, get frustrated with how it is "broken" and then invent something like this...

I felt exactly this way learning to read music. The score just didn't present enough information fast enough for me because I hand't learned to build the context in my head and spot the relations. I fumbled about with alternatie notations, extra notations etc. I finally settled on colors. I wrote a small program to color the dominant, subdominant etc. and then printed it on my color printer. This helped me immensely and I didn't take the dead end road of learning alternate notations that would shut me out of all written music everywhere.

Some windmills should be tilted at, some should just be left alone.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by vacri on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @09:36PM (#5529390)
I am a neophyte at reading music, but I think that the pitch symbols are almost entirely noise. They would help me personally (oh, that's a 'C' there, I don't have to count the lines!) but for anyone with a modicum of sight reading, surely they already know where the C is due to its location on the staff? At that point, pitch is already represented and the filled figures are noise.

I wonder if a suitable analogy would be like underlining all capital letters in a selection of prose - useful for the neophyte, chaff for the slightly experienced onwards.

robot plays the piano better than i ever could

Apart from the personal enjoyment angle, robots also can't detect the mood of the audience (yet) and play to suit.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by jliechti1 on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @10:19PM (#5529569)
Agreed. As a pianist, I not only look at the position of individual notes, but also the positions of the next 3 to 6 consecutive notes. This way I can think in "groups" of notes - which is very helpful for sightreading broken chords quickly.

The one place I could see pitch symbols being slightly beneficial is when notes are either way above or way below the staff. But even then, after some deliberate practice these can be recognized pretty quickly as well.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by masukomi on Thursday April 11, 2013 @07:50AM (#5531284)
I've read for piano, bass guitar, flute, and now ukulele. I can read treble clef, and bass clef just fine, but stick them together as you do for piano and my brain has a conniption. The exact same figure at the exact same place on each staff represents two different notes. I suspect this is because the gap between the two staffs would have required too many intermediate lines had they re-used treble clef for the bottom staff, but this doesn't mean it is a good readability choice.

Regarding relative position. On a piano the relative position of notes on the staff almost directly correlates to position on the keyboard. On a stringed instrument this is VERY far from the case. As i proceed up the scale on a simple instrument like the bass i will proceed right on the neck on one string, then drop down a string, shift left, proceed right on that string, drop down a string, shift left, proceed right on that string. So you've got back and forth, and up and down motions to keep going in one direction tonally. On a guitar the strings aren't all tuned evenly so the back and forth on the neck changes depending on which strings you're switching between. On the Ukulele the top string is higher than the string below it so you end up jumping UP strings rather than down, AND the strings aren't tuned at even intervals. So you've just got a big jumble of movements.

Don't even get me started on the totally unintuitive nature of woodwind fingerings or how they are almost totally disconnected from what's going on on the staff.

In short, the relative positioning of notes on the staff is good from a tonal perspective but crap from a finger perspective on most every instrument except piano.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by cube13 on Thursday April 11, 2013 @11:41AM (#5532661)
>In short, the relative positioning of notes on the staff is good from a tonal perspective but crap from a finger perspective on most every instrument except piano.

That's not really a problem once you build the muscle memory, though.

It's the same thing as touch typing. With enough practice, you know that finger placement X will produce note y, the same way you know where the keys on the keyboard are.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by raverbashing on Thursday April 11, 2013 @04:49AM (#5530729)
Yes

About hummingbird, it's amazing. Really, I found it strange in the first minute. Then I got it

Why? My major peeve with traditional notation is the lines above and below. And I never know what are they talking about after adding some lines above the stave.

About the key signature, 100% agree.

As pretty much all students, I thought the key signature just meant which notes are always sharp or flat ("oh these guys want us to use more black keys - BORING")

It took me some time to get it. It's not about flat or sharp, but as they said it, it's 'G Major mode'. Then you feel everything is clearer. It's like going from understanding words in a phrase to understanding the phrase.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by valdiorn on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @07:52PM (#5529040)
ehm, I would disagree. The key signature tells you what key the piece is in, period.

What the particular notes in that key do (their role, as you put it) is a property of that key.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by icarus_drowning on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @09:16PM (#5529321)
How is "tell[ing] you what key the piece is in" different that defining tonic/dominant/leading tone relationships? Those relationships are the product of the whole/half step pattern that the key signature communicates. It isn't just important that G has 1 sharp, and it is F. That sharp actually defines the leading tone.
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by colomon on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @10:44PM (#5529659)
That's only if the tonic is G. I play tunes all the time with one sharp, but a tonic of D. (ie D mixolydian.)
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by icarus_drowning on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @11:31PM (#5529812)
Sure, but I'd argue that's because the key signature is wrong. The correct way to notate that is with either a modal key signature a la Bartok or notate it as D with a constant natural on the C, showing that the tonal center is D while clearly notating the departure from the traditional major scale.
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by colomon on Thursday April 11, 2013 @11:22AM (#5532512)
By this standard probably something like 30% of the music ever written has the wrong key signature -- and I've never seen a piece of non-major music with a correctly notated key signature!
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by rquantz on Thursday April 11, 2013 @12:56AM (#5530055)
Spoken like a true musicologist.
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by jofer on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @09:16PM (#5529320)
I believe he was referring to the "put my brain in G" comment.

It's all about recognizing when to build tension and when to resolve tension.

Yes, the roles that the notes play is defined by the key, but if you don't mentally make the switch, you'll often perform things poorly because you don't anticipate where things are going correctly.

Or at least that's how it works for me, at any rate. Take anything I say with a grain of salt. I can't sight-read much at all.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by eranation on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @09:37PM (#5529391)
All I can say is this, I play guitar for 15 years, learned piano since I was 7, and I never got the classic notation. I can't read notes. And I tried learning a few times.

I looked at hummingbird, and it took me 30 seconds to memorize the symbols, and now I can read any hummingbird note sheet easily.

I would say this is a big win. Same feel I got when I saw Tau, mathematicians might argue it's incorrect, but for me, I don't care, Tau made math easy for me. Hummingbird makes music easy for me. That's all I care.

About transposing, you got a point, I think there should be apps that do it for you (e.g. convert MIDI files to hummingbird notation, I'm sure we'll see a few of these as Show HN sometime soon)

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by gcr on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @11:09PM (#5529753)
You can now sightread pages of hummingbird after 30 seconds of cursory inspection?

Hummingbird feels like a crutch to me. Hiding key signatures stunts your understanding of how music works. Forcing time to be marked explicitly as well as by altering spacing places odd constraints on typesetters. Humans use several subtle visual cues¹ to read music quickly and efficiently, and hummingbird just throws them all away.

I'm not sure this is worth the overhaul.

1: http://lilypond.org/web/about/automated-engraving/software

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by eranation on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @11:59PM (#5529916)
Yes, I can, very, very slowly, but much faster than with the regular notation, and mostly because I'm not used to sightreading regardless of how it's written. I think it will never appeal to classic / professional musicians or anyone who already feels comfortable with the regular notation, but for people lbike me, that for whatever neurological reason just can get the old notation to stick, this is priceless. The Above Below C Dot Empty Full Groove is such a great wiring that I will never be able to forget it. I might not read it fast as you read regular notes, but I will at least be able to practice. Reading regular notes to me was always counting lines, always missing the global # or b, and simply giving up serious music. I recorded music, had songs on the radio, I can play anything by ear, but not being able to read notes always bothers me. Now I can.
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by gcr on Thursday April 11, 2013 @09:38AM (#5531856)
Hm. Thanks for replying; this does sound interesting.

If this had that much of an impact on you, and if this has the potential to encourage others to learn notation, I'd like to see a full study of how hummingbird compares to the regular notation.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by ludston on Thursday April 11, 2013 @06:27AM (#5531008)
How were you taught notation in the past?
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by vacri on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @11:22PM (#5529782)
Looking at the first part of God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen, hummingbird makes it look far more complex than it actually is. A simple series of quarternotes only changing in pitch, but hummingbird is changing two things - visual complexity (filled notes) and location.

I think it's bold and interesting, but ultimately I think it hasn't got legs.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by aidenn0 on Thursday April 11, 2013 @04:33PM (#5534599)
Yes, machine transposing of hummingbird is trivial, but what about transposing while sight-reading? I have to do that regularly, and the removal of the key-signature makes that impossible.
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by cliffbean on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @09:41PM (#5529404)
Right, key signatures aren't just shorthand, they're useful information to give the performer up front.

In fact, it's so useful to state the key up front, I might even suggest the opposite; base the notation on relative pitches, as in "movable do" solfege. Then we could replace "all F's and C's are sharp" with just "do is D". Of course, there'd be tradeoffs to this as compared to the traditional notation, but it's fun to think about.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by Stratoscope on Thursday April 11, 2013 @02:09AM (#5530251)
That would be the ideal notation for a diatonic harmonica player like me. I never really have an idea of what letter note I'm playing, unless I think about what key I'm in, and then I have to count. But I always know exactly where on the scale I am.

It's funny, before I read your comment I wrote a longwinded harmonica player's lament elsewhere in the thread, and I was thinking the same thing: A relative notation would be perfect.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by andrewflnr on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @09:56PM (#5529463)
Why would you go to the trouble of designing a new music notation and not make it based on relative pitches? What are the tradeoffs?
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by cliffbean on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @10:14PM (#5529549)
My thought was that a relative-pitch notation might present a steeper learning curve. But I don't really know.

I've worked with intermediate-level musicians who are skilled at regular sight-reading, but who struggle to learn to transpose on the fly. A relative-pitch notation might be like requiring everyone to "transpose" all the time, forcing them to learn this skill before they can proceed.

On the other hand, maybe you'd teach it differently. Instead of learning transposition as carrying around an offset to add to each pitch, you'd learn it as carrying around a scale to which the relative pitches would be mapped. I wonder whether this would be easier or harder to learn.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by andrewflnr on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @10:48PM (#5529676)
You're going to stay in one scale for a long time anyway (C for piano). For that duration, pitches in the notation correspond obviously to fingerings (keys, frets, whatever). This includes other instruments which have a different "natural" key (D for the viola, my other sort of instrument): their notation maps just as nicely.

When you get beyond that, "mapping relative pitches to a scale" is, IMO, the correct approach. The "offset to each pitch" thing obscures what's really going on, as if they were all weird derivatives of the key of C. I can see how it might be harder, among other reasons because you have to understand how a scale works more clearly, but I suspect it would be worth it.

Of course, it's hard to really know without getting people to switch for a couple generations.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by ludston on Thursday April 11, 2013 @06:20AM (#5530994)
The musical world has already tried out relative scales. It was in fact the first thing tried in notation. Look at the notation device used for Gregorian Chants to see it yourself.

We already use relative notation for most instruments. Trumpets, Clarinets and Tenor Saxophones typically read notation where Bb is equivalent to C on the page. What you'll note we Don't do, is change our relative pitch between songs.

No. Relative pitch is Very Hard, because as a musician, my hands don't play relatively. When I see an Eb on a notation sheet, my body knows how to play the note without me thinking about it, and it has to, because sometimes you can have notes flying at you with a rate of 32 a bar. This does not leave time to translate between the relative abstraction on paper and the absolute pitch of my instrument. It's not just harder.

It's much, much harder to train your brain and body to be able to map the same object on the page to twelve different body positions, depending on some variable that changes at random between songs.

Also remember, that different pitches have different textures, otherwise we'd never play in a keys other than C.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by cliffbean on Thursday April 11, 2013 @12:40PM (#5533064)
Absolute pitches and are the concern of the performer, but relative pitches are the concern of the listener. Who's more important? ;-)

This is why I mainly worry that a relative-pitch notation may present a steeper learning curve. Advanced players typically need to be able to think at least somewhat in both relative pitches and absolute pitches at the same time anyway. Absolute pitches because that's what many instruments demand, and relative pitches, because that's where a lot of the meaning is, which informs other aspects of the performance. But it typically takes more practice to learn to think in both ways at once.

> Also remember, that different pitches have different textures, otherwise we'd never play in a keys other than C.

I did propose that pieces could indicate their intended key.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by ludston on Friday April 12, 2013 @08:29AM (#5538039)
Absolute pitches are the concern of the performer. Correct. Also consider that the performer is the one who is looking at the sheet music, and not the listener.
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by zan5hin on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @11:46PM (#5529874)
This is just painful. Instruments do not have scales. Music is written in different keys, and often modulates to another key and back again during the piece. In order to cover the range of pitches, different clefs are used to make the notation easier to read. Piano music is written in two clefs, bass and treble, centered around "middle C". This is called the grand staff. Depending upon an instrument's range different clefs are used. Violoncellos use bass, tenor, and treble clef. Violas use alto clef.

Scales are a function that acts upon the set of pitches used in music. A C major scale has the pitches C, D, E, F, G, A, and B. A G major scale (function) has the pitches G, A, B, C, D, E, and F#.

"Mapping relative pitches to a scale" is nonsensical. A scale (function) is an absolute set of pitches, immutable.

There are two forms of solfège (do, re, mi, ...): fixed and moveable. In moveable the first pitch of the scale is always do. In fixed the pitch called C is always do. Watch "The Sounds of Music" to learn the solfège for a major scale, it's the do-re-mi song. There are other syllables used for the three minor scale forms. To my knowledge (admittedly not complete) Italy, France, and perhaps England used a fixed-do system, whereas the rest of the world uses a moveable-so system.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by anigbrowl on Thursday April 11, 2013 @03:40AM (#5530511)
Instruments do not have scales.

Actually, most trumpets, harmonicas, and many classes of flute are restricted to diatonic scales. You'll have a hard time finding a chromatic trumpet outside of a museum.

There's more to music than western chromaticism or indeed harmonic theory.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by ludston on Thursday April 11, 2013 @05:59AM (#5530929)
You've just used a bunch of words that sounds smart, but provide deceptive value. The typical Bb valved trumpet that exists now does indeed play chromatically. And so will any other class of modern brass instrument with three valves or more.

The chromatic trumpet is an invention that allowed us to escape the trumpets natural harmonic series (Those being the notes a trumpet can play in a single valve position) before valves were invented by drilling holes along its tubes.

Wikipedia is not the best place to learn music theory, and knowing music theory is as useful as knowing a list of rules for programming best practice.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by anigbrowl on Thursday April 11, 2013 @04:06PM (#5534444)
I was incorrect about trumpets, but not about other instruments. My point that many instruments are restricted to a particular scale is entirely correct.

Also, I was playing and recording music since before wikipedia even came into existence, so dial back those assumptions.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by cpressey on Thursday April 11, 2013 @05:58AM (#5530925)
You'll have a hard time finding a chromatic trumpet outside of a museum.

This is kind of a confusing statement to me. Most instruments called "trumpets" where I come from are valved instruments which are fully capable of producing chromatics. (Maybe this is technically incorrect and we should be properly calling them "cornets" or something, I don't know.)

My point is, you certainly don't have to go to a museum to find one, and I expect, in a museum (of history anyway), any trumpet you'd find would be more likely to to be valveless and non-chromatic.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by rquantz on Thursday April 11, 2013 @01:12AM (#5530097)
This wouldn't really work for anything not in a key. How would you notate Boulez?
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by cliffbean on Thursday April 11, 2013 @10:07AM (#5532018)
You would pick an arbitrary base and do everything relative to that. This is pretty easy compared to the shoehorning already required to notate such music in existing notation schemes :-).
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by brodney on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:40PM (#5528711)
On your last question, it took me a minute to get that those various "Above" or "Below" correspond to the notes they represent, A and B. The pitch is revealed both in the symbol and in the position on the staff. I found that pretty useful, certainly easier to read than homogenous black dots where you only have spatial information.
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by MBCook on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @11:41PM (#5529845)
I read through the whole page and didn't get that. It didn't click until I started looking at the second page on the site (which goes more in depth).

My immediate thought once I figured that out was "this depends on English". For speakers of Japanese or Russian or French, can you find easy to remember words that can go with the first symbol, and that start with an "a" sound?

I actually found the terms extremely confusing. At first I thought the above/below referred to sharp/flat, but that didn't turn out. I couldn't even come up with concepts for dot and groove.

I know how to read music, but I'm not very good at it. I'll say that the idea of giving each note it's own shape seems like it could fix the problem of losing my place and having to count lines/spaces to figure out what a note it.

The thing I've never liked about musical notation is that the X axis has nothing to do with time. A staff can have 8 32nd notes and then a dotted half note. Those first notes take up 1/4 the time but 3/4 the space. While it would take more space, I find a consistent relationship much easier (such as piano roles or Guitar Hero note charts).

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by jfim on Thursday April 11, 2013 @09:26AM (#5531782)
As a native French speaker, we don't use the CDEFGAB notation but rather the "do ré mi fa sol la si do", so the symbols make no sense whatsoever.
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by arnarbi on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:42PM (#5528718)
Thanks, turns out I totally misunderstood those at first - and edited my comment in the meantime. Sorry about that.
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by jpwagner on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @08:42PM (#5529187)
Your critique is spot on for those trained in music. Is that his target audience?

What about for those being exposed to music and its notation for the first time? What if you had never had a concept of putting your brain in G major mode.

But if complete beginners are his target audience, it begs the question why stop there? Why maintain the use of the staff at all.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by silencio on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @09:08PM (#5529286)
No matter what people come up with and who the target audience is, there needs to be a good bridge between the traditional and the new. Staff or not, great for beginners or not, this will only fail because of the total lack of sheet music and other materials with nothing in sight to automate the translation of even a limited subset of music and materials.

(Of course, caveat, I've been playing piano for 20+ years as a hobby. Maybe the ties to the traditional are really not a big deal.)

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by shardling on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @11:05PM (#5529736)
I certainly hope that in the near future, digital transcriptions are easy enough to come by that you could effectively just change the font from one notation to another.

I know there are a lot of judgement calls in typesetting music, but that's true of text too, and we have some pretty good algorithms for doing so these days.

All that said, I have a lot of reservations about this particular notation, but I think there's certainly room for improvement even inside the current system. Letting the back catalog of work hold notation back isn't healthy.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by PeterisP on Thursday April 11, 2013 @04:13AM (#5530628)
The whole point of any new, better musical notation is avoiding the need to deeply understand the current traditional notation.

It is enough if machines can translate the existing sheet music to the new system.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by arnarbi on Thursday April 11, 2013 @07:42AM (#5531254)
> target audience

This is a very valid point.

Certainly the learning process for children can be improved a lot. Really, a lot. But I think it is important to integrate it with the actual notation from the beginning, as otherwise you will hit a wall when you want to play a bigger variety of music that's only available in that format.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by microtherion on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @09:03PM (#5529268)
I don’t think acquiring a sense of key signature is a dispensable part of the music learning experience, unless you plan to stick to twelve tone music.
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by andrewguenther on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @10:53PM (#5529696)
If you look at the guide, the key signatures are still included, but written in plain English. Look at the Fur Elise example:

http://www.hummingbirdnotation.com/songs/Fur%20Elise%20(Fina...

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by vacri on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @11:30PM (#5529805)
Not all musicians work in plain English. There's the German note H, for example, or half of Europe using solfege: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solf%C3%A8ge#Fixed_do_solf.C3.A...

Musical notation needs to be spoken-language-free.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by marssaxman on Thursday April 11, 2013 @12:53AM (#5530049)
Musical notation has never been spoken-language-free: the scores I play are all full of Italian words. I have never learned any Italian; these words are simply part of the notation, much as English words are parts of the notation in many popular programming languages.
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by vacri on Thursday April 11, 2013 @06:03AM (#5530942)
Fair enough, I stand corrected.
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by eru on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @11:52PM (#5529893)
> Musical notation needs to be spoken-language-free.

Tempi and volume are usually given in Italian, aren't they?

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by yayitswei on Thursday April 11, 2013 @02:20AM (#5530274)
Here's an interesting alternative notation that emphasizes relative pitches: http://muto-method.com/images/fig11-e.png.

It was invented for the Chromatone, a keyboard that eliminates black and white keys and treats all keys the same way, similar to a guitar fretboard. http://muto-method.com/en/index.html

Transposing then becomes easy because every scale has the same shape.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by arnarbi on Thursday April 11, 2013 @08:10AM (#5531369)
Thanks for that link, that is very interesting indeed. Being able to read the intervals more easily is certainly valuable, especially if you are playing on a chromatic keyboard.

However, I do like the fact that accidentals in traditional notation say something important: This note is out of the scale you are playing in. This is usually audibly very noticeable, so it makes sense to have it very noticeable in the score as well.

The three line system could be enhanced to show the notes that are in and out of the scale slightly differently, e.g. with color, or the size of the note-head. This would still have the benefit of being easily transposable.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by podperson on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:38PM (#5528695)
The mnemonics are also anglocentric visual puns (e is for empty). I'd suggest a set of symbols with natural ordering that can be distinguished by shape (vs. all circles)
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by jeffamcgee on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @08:14PM (#5529095)
That's actually already been done: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_note . The hymnals at my grandparent's church actually have shaped notes.
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by arnarbi on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:40PM (#5528707)
Yes, I realized I misunderstood those, and edited my comment a bit.
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by danhodgins on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @10:52PM (#5529695)
Solid points, although I think you're zeroing in on too many low-level details too early even though your criticisms are valid.

Also, maybe you could make your feedback constructive by providing ideas, alternatives and suggestions instead of just ripping it apart but adding no value or solid suggestions beyond that.

The point here is much bigger and more significant than any of your individual criticisms.

The point is this - these people are rethinking the problem of notation, and redesigning it from the ground up.

I think their approach is totally badass, and I love the fact that someone is tackling this!

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by tjic on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @11:00PM (#5529718)
> Also, maybe you could make your feedback constructive by providing ideas, alternatives and suggestions instead of just ripping it apart but adding no value or solid suggestions beyond that.

Pointing out flaws IS constructive criticism. This happens all the time and it bugs me:

person A comes up with an idea person B gives good reasons why it's flawed person A - the one who wants to innovate - says that fixing those flaws isn't his problem, and that person B should fix them.

WRONG.

The person who generates an idea, the person who wants to do something new, is the one who is responsible for brainstorming, finding problems, finding solutions, and pivoting as needed.

To say "your criticisms should be bundled with solutions" just raises the bar on criticism, and when it costs more to generate criticism, you get less of it.

We should all encourage criticism, and then we should make finding solutions OUR problem.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by arnarbi on Thursday April 11, 2013 @08:17AM (#5531399)
Thank you, my thoughts exactly.

I much prefer someone to criticize my work, rather than sitting quiet just because they can't think of improvements. After all, I'm probably much more likely to come up with a solution than they are, and the reason I didn't is just because I didn't think of that problem.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by arnarbi on Thursday April 11, 2013 @08:13AM (#5531381)
Thanks, yes I realized my lack of suggestions for improvements after writing my comment. I simply didn't have any (it was also quite late), as I think there are some fundamental choices in that system that are not beneficial. My "low-level details" were meant as arguments against those fundamental choices, rather than nit-picks that could be easily solved.

In the end, I judged that (valid) criticism is better than no criticism, despite the negative feeling of being the guy that just "tears it down".

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by sixothree on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @10:22PM (#5529579)
My first observation was that it was difficult to discern the notes on my screen. Imagine that on paper farther than arms length away in a darkened room. That's plenty enough to disqualify it.

But yes, classical notation could certainly use some refinements.

Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by vwinsyee on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @10:45PM (#5529666)
I had the same reaction. No matter how small the notes are in classical notation, I can tell if they're filled or hollow, and whether an accidental is a sharp or flat. Distinguishing between hollow, partially and directionally filled, and filled notes, with diacritical accidentals seems more difficult.
Re:Hummingbird – A fresh take on music notation by sjy on Thursday April 11, 2013 @12:11AM (#5529936)
You don't have to omit the key signature.