They are part of the democratic party so they are democrats.

As for their agenda, you are wrong.

I'm going to believe what they say:

https://www.dsausa.org/

"The Democratic Socialists of America is the largest socialist organization in the United States, with over 100,000 members and chapters in all 50 states. We believe that working people should run both the economy and society democratically to meet human needs, not to make profits for a few."

"Capitalism is a system designed by the owning class to exploit the rest of us for their own profit. We must replace it with democratic socialism, a system where ordinary people have a real voice in our workplaces, neighborhoods, and society."

"democratic socialism" is an oxymoron. socialism conflicts directly with democratic values. At the very least there is no pre-existing example of democracy and socialism working side by side. All previous socialist "experiments" were not democracies.

If 'democratic values' are everyone having an equal voice in how the systems of a country are arranged. And if those people, through a democratic process, decide that the systems of their country shouldn't support the exploitative elements of capitalism, then it would definitely be democracy in action to make that come true. Anything counter to that would be, by definition, anti-democratic.

When you say "socialism conflicts directly with democratic values" I genuinely have no idea what "democratic values" you're talking about.

> "democratic socialism" is an oxymoron

No it's not, check out Europe, mostly northern countries, it's working just fine.

> At the very least there is no pre-existing example of democracy and socialism working side by side.

Again, northern europe screaming at you.

So you're wrong...

Also, you're Canadian, maybe it's not your business

I am also a Canadian, and since midnight we are in a big economic war with the USA.

I feeel those topics are a bit of my business.

Who exactly imposed those tarriffs?

Scandinavian countries you are referring to are practicing Social Democracy, they are not Democratic Socialist states.

In other words, Social Democrat != Democratic Socialist

Scandinavian model relies on competitive private enterprise to create wealth, combined with strong labor union collective bargaining, universal public services, and high consumption/income taxes that apply broadly across society.

DSA seeks to move past or dismantle the capitalist economic system, advocating for social, public, or worker ownership of the means of production.[1]

[1] https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/what-is-democratic-socialism...

No they do not and it doesn't say that anywhere in the linked website.

Why are you lieing?

From what i can read they want the same scandinavian model with strong labor unions, universal public services and so on.

"We want to collectively own the key economic drivers that dominate our lives, such as energy production and transportation."

From the linked website. Now, that's not quite "the means of production", explicitly stated. It's just "the key economic drivers", so most of the means of production.

Maybe you ought to be a little less quick to accuse others of lying.

The largest energy producer in Finland is state-owned and most cities own their own energy production. What’s the big deal?

So what's wrong with that phrase?

Norway collectively owns its 'key economic drivers'.

Is that a bad thing?, they're still capitalistic, just with better respect for its people.

You probably collectively own things via the stock market too.

Those still sound like Scandinavia? Energy Production - Vattenfall in Sweden, the Norway oil fund. Transportation? Public transport is mostly publicly owned (trains go back and forth with failed privatization attempts), the road network is wholly state-owned (unlike e.g. Japan where the whole highway network is privatized and tolled)

"Democratic Socialism" is VERY different from "Social Democracy"

In socialism with supposed democracy, where the state owns the means of production and supposedly the workers supposedly have a say about everything, they actually end up with a say about nothing (at least not without greasing the right palms in the inevitably corrupt system that arises).

In Social Democracy, capitalism is the underlying system, where corporations and workers can own means of production, but it operates under sufficient regulation that the excesses and systemic failures of captialism (e.g., failure to prevent Tragedies Of The Commons, tendency towards monopoly and excess concentration of power, consistent tendency to abuse and impoverish workers, etc.), you end up with successful systems like Northern Europe.

The two are very different, and we need to hold the DSA people to the latter and not let them sneak in the former.

You are wrong.

The term you are looking for is communism, not socialism.

Nordic countries are practicing Democratic Socialism.

DSA is not communist.

Why are you spreading this crap when it takes 2 neurons and a few searches to find out you are wrong?

You are mistaking Democratic Socialism (of DSA fame) for Social Democracy practiced by Nordic countries.

Different beasts as I explained in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49404166

Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism are the same thing

Really?

So tell me how Social Democrat parties of Denmark or Sweden views on capitalism same thing as DSA views on it stated in DSA sites I linked elsewhere?

Do these social democrats also want to replace capitalism?

nobody wants to replace capitalism, you're being absurd

I’m observing a pattern - you don’t like to answer questions, provide evidence or context.

Youre statements peak at a single sentence with minimal signal. You’re not interested in conversations or debates

You make outrageously wrong claims with no intention of debate, I'm returning your profound deference in kind.

Skimming through your comments, your only goal is to demonize DSA because they go against your views with respect to Israel.

It doesn't matter to you if what you're saying is true or not, you are not looking for a debate.

I reference direct statements by DSA made on their own websites that they aim to

* replace capitalism [0]

* own means of production [0]

I state the fact that Scandinavian/Nordic countries are Social Democracies (embracing capitalism) and Not Democratic Socialist countries.

You state that Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism is the same.

I ask you "tell me how Social Democrat parties of Denmark or Sweden views on capitalism same thing as DSA view" [1]

And your response is "nobody wants to replace capitalism, you're being absurd reply" inspite of official DSA statements that i linked to in [0]

My 2 points stand:

* DSA is pretty clear about its desires to replace capitalism [0] and own means of production [0]

* Nordic countries are Social Democracies. THey embrace capitalism, not aim to replace it (as its stated on DSA's own site). Your statement is factually wrong, unless you can find it in your heart to prove me wrong.

I dont know why you felt that bringing Israel discussion about clear socialist goals of DSA will help your argument whatever that is, but try to keep focus about systematic issues with DSA, not geo-political.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49404545

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49405182

They themselves literally say out loud that they want to abolish our existing institutions. If you want to debate that point, go debate the DSA candidates themselves.

You're wrong again.

You must live under a rock. A quick search will find you plenty of video of politicians talking about defunding things, cancelling Thanksgiving, abolishing ICE or the FDA or the Senate, undercutting small businesses, introducing rationing, etc, etc.

> The DSA wants to abolish the existing US democratic process.

That reads as though you’re saying they want to abolish the democratic process, but as somebody living in a country with many of the democratic processes they’re proposing, looking in on what seems like a very dysfunctional democratic process in the US, it seems to be that they want to replace it with a much better version of itself.

> replace it with some "workers will decide" socialist mumbo-jumbo.

Isn't it clear to you that you're misrepresenting DSA's position?

I don't think so. I'm not an expert and I'm not an American. I did read their web site, I listen to what their candidates are saying and doing. I could very well be wrong. But when they say "socialism" there are two or three options. The first is they don't understand what that word means. The second is they do understand what that word means. The third is they've redefined this word. We already had a word for what people want, it's social-democratic, not socialism. So if they called themselves social-democrats and not socialists I would support them and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

"We want a democracy powered by everyday people. The capitalist class tells us we are powerless, but together we can take back control."

What are they not saying? They are not saying things like we should raise taxes to fund social programs so we can be more like Europe. Europe is capitalist. Europe has free markets. DSA opposes capitalism. DSA wants to, in their words: "We want to collectively own the key economic drivers that dominate our lives, such as energy production and transportation.".

What am I not understanding? Barrack Obama wanted accessible healthcare for all, he was not DSA. That's an awesome idea for the US that Democrats rallied behind and partly failed. Show me in DSA's words, material and action, how they are really social-democrats who just want more vacation, healthcare, worker protection while still maintaining capitalist free markets - like Europe. I mean they want all that but not in that way.

This 100%.

I think most of us want a moderate Democrat. I hope populism dies with Trump/MAGA in the coming years. We don’t need to match them with our own distasteful populism.

moderate corporate democrats are repeatedly getting trounced in elections and the DSA crew are starting to win so citation definitely needed

How is DSA populist? The United States is a country famously opposed to socialist, I don't think they could've picked a more controversial position.

CHAZ was an idealistic symptom of applying John Lennon's Imagine to a neighborhood of Seattle, and it wasn't the only city tempted by this endeavor (if only it didn't finish with an arms dealer taking leadership of the locality);

"Defund the police" was a campaign slogan at last election.

I'm looking from Europe and I'm often impressed how extreme american leftists are. If it's not socialism, it sure shares the same conclusions. And yet "The most extreme left in the US is the most extreme right wing for Europe" is a common belief.

>I'm looking from Europe and I'm often impressed how extreme american leftists are.

I am often impressed how abusive and violent US policemen are. And they have budgets rivaling the defense spending of whole countries and are armed to the teeth with military grade equipment.

From the other side of the world looking at you, what you need are moderate Republicans

The republican party has become extreme, and they are wrecking your republic

>But- It's worked pretty well over the last few hundred years.

Except form the million of black people living in the south of the US. For them, the USA is a democracy only since 1964.

And if you argue "yes but it got better", the Republicans are making everything to get back to before 1964.

Incidentally, your "we can't let workers decide" sounds a lot like "we can't let negroes vote" or "we can't let women vote". And is as much FUD.

The world has moved forward. There was slavery in many places.

I had a similar discussion in real life. Where we concluded it that Roe vs. Wade being overturned was the biggest step backwards. Most of the other stuff is noise but this one is a biggy that's hard to fix. It sucks for Americans (which I'm not but I was debating an American).

Nobody is saying we can't let workers decide. Most of us are workers. Most of us vote. We are deciding. The US has also made progress on workers' rights at the state level to my understanding. At the end of the day we still have to lean on the democratic process, we need to debate policies and we need to get people to think critically and think things through. This is very hard to do today given the public discourse and tribalism.

While many people find the Leftist route of saving the country, the right route makes more sense to me. Reduce taxes to near zero - eliminate minimum wage - it's a recipe for starting companies. The left's answer is to destroy all companies. People think a company will exist in a leftist controlled world, but they're dead wrong.

Clearly a social component can exist within a democracy, European nations are an example of this? Are there any proposals more radical than European-adjacent style social policies?

As a citizen of one of the European countries you mentioned, let me tell you: The DSA would run as a center-left party in pretty much the entire union. You have—respectfully—not a clue what socialism means, because the DSA agenda has absolutely nothing in common with communism in the first place.

Respectfully does the government run the grocery stores in your European country? Is public transit free in your European country? Do your center-left parties advocate for abolition of your parliament and democratic processes? Do they talk about how the rich are the source of all evil? Have you studied the DSA agenda in depth?

And sure, there are also ideas like healthcare for all which I think are similar but that isn't really what the DSA is about. It's definitely not about transforming the USA to have a better social network like healthcare or protection for employees. It's a lot more radical than that.

> Have you studied the DSA agenda in depth?

Yes, they are center-left at best, and your frenzied rebuttal against regular people trying to improve their lives and the country they live in is alarming. Free public transportation..the horror.

>> Have you studied the DSA agenda in depth?

> Yes

Respectfully, you may have skimmed some material or watched a couple of minutes of MSNOW, because you wouldn't come to the conclusion that the DSA just wants free public transportation otherwise. Key aspects of the DSA's goals and the actual policy implementation actions of elected DSA-aligned politicians that are quite well aligned with the position of a person holding communist and other relatively extremist sympathies:

- state-controlled grocery stores [0]

- public ownership of the largest corporations and essential industries [1]

- abolition in full of police and prisons ("cut police budgets annually toward zero") [1]

- ending sanctions on states backing terrorist activities [1]

- permitting open, uncontrolled immigration [2]

- disregarding the existence of Israel ("democratic secular state [Palestine], from the river to the sea") [3]

- giving voting rights to noncitizens and prisoners [4]

[0] https://edc.nyc/program/nyc-groceries (a city headed by a DSA-aligned mayor)

[1] https://program.dsausa.org/

[2] https://www.dsausa.org/democratic-left/using-power-builds-po...

[3] https://www.dsausa.org/statements/on-the-ceasefire-in-gaza/

[4] https://program.dsausa.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/DSA_WD...

[edited for formatting]

I think what amazes me the most is that you read all of that and said “nope”.

I can’t wrap my head around why you would sacrifice your life and well being so that a small number of people can become impossibly wealthy?

I read those pages and find it absolutely fantastic. How someone could fight for the position to be a wage slave with no security against inflation, cost of living or bankruptcy or homelessness due to illness is frankly insane.

Did the person above you say that the DSA suggests that the states should run public grocery stores, and did you gloss over it, parodying him?

Wouldn't you recognize that bad faith characterizes the DSA lines?

Canada has government-rune liquor stores, they're doing ok. Not exactly a "grocery store", but still PRETTY SHOCKING. UK has co-op (chains). There's Mondragon in Spain - I know it's employee-owned but that's not much different than government-owned if you really think about it.

Public-transit where I live is not free, but it is subsidized, with various recent efforts from municipal and state governments to further reduce costs for all residents.

Germany is defined as Social Democracy or a Social Market Economy. It marries free-market capitalism with social welfare policies, state regulation, and collective bargaining to ensure economic growth and social security, including robust social safety nets.

The US once had stronger unions and basic worker-oriented safety nets. This has been dismantled since the 80s, while piling on the National Debt by pilfering the treasury and "returning" the money to the (rich) end of the tax base.

There was a great quote in the original Deus Ex: "In 1945, corporations paid 50 percent of federal taxes. Now they pay about 5 percent."

In my mind the DSA is trying to shift the Overton window towards something more reasonable, that has already existed in the US. Focusing on the extremes to dismiss the DSA entirely is like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Free public tenant is very common. The wealthy being massive sources of the problem is very common. The U.K., hardly a bastion of socialist views, has massive amounts of food banks and he only attempt to overturn democracy I’ve seen was on Jan 6th 2021.

I disagree. When I moved from Finland to the US, I was surprised to find how popular actual "abolish private property" style socialism was among young Americans. I hanged out with leftist people when I was a student, and I kind of knew many of the people who eventually ended up running the Left Alliance (the main left-wing party). My impression was that they had all accepted free markets as a necessary evil, rather than advocating for the socialism of their predecessors. But it looks like Finnish students have started adopting American socialist ideas in the recent years.

Bernie is probably the most well-known democratic socialist in the US, but he is not a member of DSA. By his political positions he would be either in the left wing of Finnish Social Democratic Party or in the mainstream of the Left Alliance. He would probably choose the Left Alliance, since it is more like a coalition of like-minded activists, while the party is the primary actor for the Social Democrats.

AOC, another well-known democratic socialist, would also fit in the Left Alliance. She is part of the moderate wing of DSA. But if you start looking into the ideological wing, you find plenty of actual socialists who would make Finnish mainstream leftists uncomfortable.

I would argue that the USA suffers from its bipartisan system in a lot of ways; among them the problem of two parties having to span an incredibly wide range of political positions that are often so far apart to be almost irreconcilable. I'm pretty sure you will find some people with uncomfortable positions at the fringe seams of the Left Alliance as well, they are just organised in a very different system compared to the US and do not have the momentum to rally around these positions right now.

Fringe groups tend to start new political parties in the Finnish system. There are still two communist parties left, both offshoots of the pro-Soviet minority of the original communist party. One of them even has the official status of a political party, but probably not for long, as it lost its last seats in the 2021 local elections.

> DSA's agenda is socialism via the democratic process, and

> The DSA wants to abolish the existing US democratic process.

So, getting into elected office by winning elections is wanting to abolish the democratic process?

I think I'm beginning to understand why the hardcore MAGA folks loves Trump so much.

I'm guessing it's more about "abolish the Senate"

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2026/07/senate-representat...

Incidentally, if I wanted to sabotage a movement, I'd probably try to convince it to adopt ideas I know would be controversial with the wider public

>The DSA wants to abolish the existing US democratic process.

You misspelled "Trump".

There is only one party making it harder for people to vote, and it is the Republican party.