I don't disagree, except that you've taken ambitious to mean climbing the corporate ladder, which is a relatively narrow reading.

It can also mean wanting a achieve a large dream or goal e.g. writing a book.

I can +1 who you're replying to in the context of founders and achieving a large dream (building a massive company.)

I was in the Summer 2016 batch. Ten years out feels like long enough for some reflections on lives well-lived. There were people in my batch who were ambitious, not in climbing someone else's corporate ladder but in building their own massive/successful/wealthy company.

For those who separated it from what they were passionate about—and here I mean the impact, not "passionate about building a big business—there have been more than a few crash outs. Existential crises, Extremely Online Syndrome, pulled into a world where what VCs say or competition with press releases on Tech Crunch define their self-worth.

These people are generally not happy. Some are! But many are not.

The founders who worked on things that they care about, with technology or company-building as a _means_ to achieving some greater end, are doing much better. They might or might not still be at their start-ups. Many have gone on to work at other impactful companies or organizations. They seem much more content with life and their contributions to the world.

That's the type of ambition that is healthy _and_ meaningful _and_ lasting. It's not that these people aren't ambitious—they very much are! But it's not "big company good". It's "big positive impact good."

In my experience, this is the kind of thing that one should explore when choosing co-founders. Misalignment here, at least the kind where you're not fully (100%!) okay with, and you're up for a painful journey. Maybe not at the beginning, but most likely at some point in time. The kind of thing that can ruin a lot, including causing an identity and life crisis.

Or the dream of financial security and early retirement, which are both highly valuable in the context of having a family.

I couldn’t care less about the external validation part of it or my job title.

I think the OP's logic applies. Every author is hoping their book is a best-seller and/or wins awards i.e. the approval of others.

I know a couple of O’Reilly authors. I don’t think any of them expected a best-seller or awards from their work, just “I get a high-four or barely-five figure payment for a competent treatment of a technical topic.”

Maybe you could argue that’s a lightweight version of “approval of others”

Surprised to hear that an O'Reilly book will net you less than a month of work for a SWE in the US and some parts of Europe.

But I guess the reward is not the money but the expertise and signal.

That plus, online, in-person training opportunities.

Here's an authors account of royalties received from the no. 2 best selling O'Reilly book at the time (around $500k over 6 years)

https://martin.kleppmann.com/2020/09/29/is-book-writing-wort...

It might not be as common, but some authors do write something to get it out of their head.

Focusing on your passion for writing is more likely to produce the book than focusing on your desire to be able to say you were someone who finished a book.

And who is being able to say you were someone who finished a book for? You? Or is it for someone else?

Or the dream of keeping a stable job.

The trouble with that is it's always someone else's decision whether you keep your job.

I kinda agree with you but Could you please elaborate on “ having kids does all the good things in life at once” as I dont see how is that so straightforward. I’m actually currently really conflicted on the idea whether I want or dont want kids.

Looking back, I found most Internet comment section advice about having kids to be unhelpful. There’s a cliche that gets rephrased 1000 different ways to say a variation of “It’s a lot of work and my kids drive me crazy but I wouldn’t trade it for the world”. Now that I am a parent that advice feels like it oversells the negatives and fails to explain why people like their kids.

Truthfully, it is hard to relate to non-parents why you enjoy your own kids. It’s completely different than babysitting someone else’s kids. It’s your family and you like being with them. After work I’d rather hang out with my kids and go for a bike ride or build legos with them instead of relax and watch TV. I’m kind of dreading the day that they don’t want to spend so much time with me because we have so much fun. It’s a little extra motivation to get my work done early and start my day early so I can have more time with them, which is something I never thought I’d say as a nights and evenings person.

The extra work is more work than if I didn’t have kids and just relaxed after work and on weekends, but it’s not the world-ending grind like some people talk about. The early part where they’re waking up through the night and need constant feedings and changes goes by quickly and then you’re into a routine and teaching them ever more self sufficiency. I wouldn’t dwell on it, or at least don’t let it be an obstacle to imagining the rest of your years with a family. It’s a year or two of altered sleep schedules for 40 years of having a family.

Getting balanced takes from happy parents around you is a good idea. Online it’s too easy to get drawn into social media whirlpools of unhappy parents venting about things, but I’ve found the best advice comes from the happy parents around you that are quietly enjoying their lives without bringing up the topic of kids. You have to bring it up with them. Depending on where you work, it’s possible that the average person around you has a family and is happy about it, but they’re not bringing it up all the time because it’s just normal life for them.

I was on the fence for a long time as well. It just looked like a lot of work. And not to sugar coat it, it _is_ a lot of work. But it’s also been so rewarding. You get to see someone experience things for the first time, like riding a bike or eating a tomato. Teaching them it’s ok to have feelings, helping them overcome their fears, watching them make friends. Giving them the advice I wished I had heard from someone I trusted growing up. And a million other things. And the hug and kiss at night with “I love you daddy” can’t be replicated.

To offer a contrasting opinion, I was on the fence, went for it, and it was a big mistake. Unfortunately, it's impossible to be sure what it'll be like until you try it. And there's no undo button. I would strongly recommend not having children until you're absolutely sure you want to.

Absolutely agree! There are people that parenting is not a good fit, for various reasons. And it does a disservice to both the parent and the child.

> I would strongly recommend not having children until you're absolutely sure you want to.

That's good advice. I'll add the caveat that sometimes you cannot be entirely sure (few things in life are so clear cut), but if you truly hesitate, don't do it. Also don't do it for the sake of a partner who insists, or to save your relationship. Big mistake; children are neither bargaining chips nor bets that can pay off.

If you're leaning towards "yes", however, I think it can be a wonderful (if hard!) experience.

Yeah, I guess 100% certainty is not achievable. But it should be to the point where the thought is “hell yeah, let’s do this” rather than “I’m not so sure.”

Surely a lot of this can be experienced by associating with parents and their children rather than having them yourself, right?

This may sound somewhat reductive, and please correct me if that is the case, but I find that I can be around and play with my nephew and experience all of this wonder and how he progresses through life, while not being around for the sleepless nights and tantrums that I feel are the "work" part of being a parent.

Obviously a personal anecdote and YMMV, but I have several nieces and nephews, and I've gotten to watch them grow over the last ~15 years. During this time, I've tried to spend as much time with them as I can.

But I'm a new dad as of this year, and it's totally different. It really doesn't compare.

There's only so much time you can spend with someone else's kid, even if they're family. Even seeing a niece or nephew every week doesn't compare with waking up with a newborn at 3 AM and seeing them stick their tongue out for the first time, or seeing the squinty face they make when they try a strawberry for the first time at 5 PM on a random Tuesday.

It also doesn't compare with the sheer joy of having a little one who joyfully loves the heck out of you because you've bonded with each other and they feel loved and secure with you -- you've cared for them, loved them unconditionally, been understanding, responsive, and emotionally stable with them, and patiently/consistently enforced healthy boundaries on their behavior.

In a sense, one could say there's no greater joy.

But there's also perhaps no greater pain when parenting gets really complex and hard. One of my kids is autistic and raising him has been incredibly difficult and painful (he's a teen now).

As is the case with so many things, the person you're replying to will reply with what they can quantify about the experience, but there is much much more to it that is unquantifiable and hard to convey. It is the difference between "using" someone's child for the satisfaction of these experiences, versus raising a child for their own sake, that you are wholly responsible for, especially in the early years.

In part, for sure. I was an uncle for a long time, which formed part of my hesitation. But there’s a different level of investment and connection if you are responsible for something 24/7. Like visiting someone’s house and seeing their dog do a trick, vs having your own dog and training it. There’s people who can articulate it better than me, but (not to sound sappy about it) the first time I held my firstborn my world changed.

Edit: I think another poster put it well that “it wasn’t about ‘me’ anymore”. Depending on your disposition, this could be great or it could be really bad. I’ve definitely changed for the better over the course of being a parent.

I like your dog trick analogy, that definitely helped me understand it more :)

In the spirit of this forum and at the risk of being very cringe, I’d guess that’s like being the founder of a company versus being one of the early employees :)

No, unfortunately. It's similar, but different in my opinion / view.

What I found and I think this is quite common for men is my attitude to kids in general completely changed once I had my own.

> Surely a lot of this can be experienced by associating with parents and their children rather than having them yourself, right?

No, not really.

Also not the same as being the cool uncle/aunt, though that can give you a lightweight preview. I know because I went through this myself, I was so involved with my nephews I became their favorite uncle by far, and to this day they still remind me of this.

In reality, only being an actual parent can give you the true experience. Nothing else comes close.

It's not a cost-benefit calculation. You just do it because you do it and you wouldn't be you if you didn't.

Hard to put in words. And yes, you will feel like "WTF why did I do this" at times. A lot of people have parents who will remind them that they could have had an easy life instead. I try not say that even though I think it too.

I could sell you some fluff about being part of a continuity or the reward it brings, but it's post hoc rationalisation.

There is no easy life so stop thinking it.

The replies in this thread are already very good. I'm a dad of two, but I won't add anything more than that you will be hard pressed to find a parent who will regret having children. I understand the bias in it, but people can be persuaded into honesty and, under anonymity on this website, are more likely to be honest about such things.

Partner and I are childfree but in talking with other parents about it, I've had 3 admit, if they knew now, they wouldn't have had kids or had less. My father was one of them.

Interesting. Did they cite any reasons?

>you will be hard pressed to find a parent who will regret having children

It is such an extreme social taboo to admit you regret having your children that even if you find someone that does you would never know.

Agreed, though I know some people who evidently regretted having children, or never bonded with their own but developed "quasi-parental" relationships with children who weren't their own. More than one case, actually!

But I think most parents, in reasonable socioeconomic conditions, don't regret having children.

I agree, I would assume anonymity would allow for some honesty here, but I agree.

It is an absolute ton of work and is absolutely worth it for me.

If you want to dedicate your life to raising and creating a new human being from the ground up, and being able to see your work in action as they grow to become an actual human person - impressing you, disappointing you, going their own way, surprising you, then parenting might be for you.

It's expensive, and labor intensive, and full of decisions that are damnably hard because there's no "right" answer. It's a cult. It's a genetic imperative. It's also amazing.

You will not necessarily experience a tangible personal benefit - it's not an investment with a return. It's a "pour your love into this thing and get love back" kinda deal.

I have a kid with my partner and I'm still not sure it was the right decision for me. They do become a full-time job in their own right and there is a whole set of skills that you can kind of learn through books but is going to be unique to your little one.

The first couple of months were especially hard as they don't have much of a personality, don't really react much to the world around them, they're just feeding, sleeping, and growing. Starting at the beginning of the third month for me it started changing and every baby is kind of unique.

I now _detest_ most of the books/articles/child-rearing advice I've encountered. Most of all of their content is fluff to pad pages, a blog roll, and are frequently superseded by more modern research backed evidence. There is a lot of toxic advice in those books and systems as well, usually for parents that are prioritizing restoring their prior social lives over the well-being of their children.

It's time-consuming and exhausting, but I haven't found it to be _hard_ yet. Waking up in the middle of the night and giving your kid a hug and maybe reading to them a bit when they have a nightmare isn't a challenging task. The challenging tasks are exceptions (surprise medical issues, your daycare closing down with two days notice, etc). The baby and child industry put a cost premium on the clothes targeting them and they don't last very long due to the child's growth. I _saw_ this coming but not to the extreme it has actually manifested and you'll find it replicated in every child/baby sized item.

There are a lot of surprising upsides and my motivations have definitely changed since we had a kid. I will flip a mountain to see my kid smile and laugh, it hits deep. I enjoy spending time with her and I'm terrified of missing her achievements and milestones. When she comes to me and asks me to show her how something works, wants a book read to her, or just wants a hive five I get a double whammy of that serotonin once for being a Dad that she wants to engage with and once for getting to spend time with her.

I still, and unfortunately kind of frequently, miss what I have effectively sacrificed to have her. I am slower at staying on top of emerging trends, hobbies have been left by the wayside that I did for decades, I gave up running conferences and with it I drifted away from whole treasured social groups. None of this was really a surprise, but I didn't realize how much what I gave up was really part of who I was.

The social thing is interesting, you will inevitably drift away from friends who don't have kids. Even for the ones who do you will be so busy with your own life that you won't get to see them much. You will probably end up with more contact with parents from their schools although that will stop suddenly when they finish.

Not sure what the solution is other than putting in some deliberate effort to maintain those relationships (which I didn't do).

Good comment. I have two remarks:

> It's time-consuming and exhausting, but I haven't found it to be _hard_ yet.

I think this is exactly what people mean when they say "hard": time-consuming and exhausting, not hard as in "I cannot figure this out". Usually you figure it out as you go.

This is excluding children with serious health problems, etc. I'm thankful I won the lottery in this regard, I know some situations can destroy families.

> I still, and unfortunately kind of frequently, miss what I have effectively sacrificed to have her. I am slower at staying on top of emerging trends, hobbies have been left by the wayside

Also rings true for me. Especially my hobbies, I barely have time for them now; and when she grows up who knows whether I'll be able to resume them. But in my case, this is balanced by this thought: would I be happier if I had more time for my hobbies, but she wasn't in my life. And the answer is very clearly that I prefer her to be in my life 1000000%, and if I cannot do my hobbies all that often that's an acceptable loss.

Agree, but with the caveat. we have to develop ambition, passion, habits, and success in the right areas of life, so that the right partner wants to choose us. (We typically don't get to pick.)

You pick when you choose them back.

> The chance of validation from others

I feel like this is missing the point about why people in these situations are ambitious. Some are looking for external validation and jealousy from their peers. Most just want to be able to provide well for their families and get a point of having enough in the bank that the future feels secure.

As a parent, the feeling of having enough in my career to have the financial stability and career options to ensure that my kids are always taken care of and can go to any education path they want without worrying about finances is huge. Knowing that I can retire young enough to spend a lot of time with them is also huge. It took a lot of ambition and hard work to get here, but I was never doing it for external validation.

> The older I get the more I realize ambition and "being ambitious" is a completely misplaced way to orient your life.

> Make decisions based on what you're passionate about, based on what will bring and keep meaningful relationships into your life, based on what will leave you with habits that take you outside, into the sun, moving your body and eating healthy, and, sure, that will afford you the ability to pay for those things.

Most people are ambitious about one or more of those things.

> Making decisions based on what will make you more "successful" will make you a slave to others approval

Again, many of the things you listed above will make people more "successful".

> Also, if you pick the right partner, having kids does all the good things in life at once. It is the most efficient way to get yourself into the good life possible.

This is a broad generalization that does not apply to everyone.

Do the things for the things in themselves.

Don't do the things to be able to say you were someone who did the things.

While I agree with everything you say... I'd sure like to earn more money. It would make my life better and my kid's lives better. The surest path to achieving that is to be ambitious in the workplace. It's something I find myself constantly conflicted on.

> a life made of choices of that kind will eventually leave you spiritually bankrupt.

> I'd sure like to earn more money.

i heard a lyric a while back about being "unhappy with the riches, cuz you're p**-poor morally"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koVHN6eO4Xg

I’m not convinced it’s a binary thing like that. At the extreme end you have the father that steals bread to feed his starving family. At the other end you have the father that spends more time at work in pursuit of a promotion. I’m not sure that makes anyone morally piss-poor.

Taking a job at Palantir in order to make an extra few hundred K… yeah, maybe that’s morally piss poor.

it's definitely a multi-axis thing :)

Aladdin makes me sympathize with stealing to feed your family, though The Protomen helped me place a balance between sacrificing for your family and working for personal ambitions

Being ambitious doesn't necessarily mean you're aiming for validation. It means you're aiming for a goal that's challenging. What drives that ambition is what matters.

Many are driven by a desire to create real change, a desire to build, to solve a problem, and/or help people. Many do it simply because it's fun, but it doesn't make them any less ambitious.

>Also, if you pick the right partner,

For many (75%+ ?) even that is not an option. If they tried, they would be single forever(which is not a bad option in itself)

If 75% of people cannot find a good partner, that suggests that all involved would be well-served by learning how to be better partners themselves:)

> The chance of validation

i got the ick at that. i'm not ambitious for validation. i'm ambitious to maximize my agency, IN PARTICULAR from the need of validation non ambitious people typically have

> The older I get the more I realize ambition and "being ambitious" is a completely misplaced way to orient your life.

The older you get, the closer you get to being a corpse. That's not something to be proud of :)

I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of your comment in spirit, but you are conflating "ambition" with "seeking validation from others". The most passionate and driven people I know are intrinsically motivated and have ideals that go beyond social validation.

That is one way to look at it. But equally, the older you get, the longer you've fought off becoming a corpse.

Heh love the optimistic outlook, I'll keep that in mind!

Just remember, for 99.9% of us, work accomplishments are meaningless.

I think about it. At one point job accomplisments mattered and later it stopped not because of having family, but also what mattered at work changed. All the tips, tricks, late night work, things I thought were clever, unique, frugal solutions were marked as hack, obsoleted solutions, need to be replaced by "industry standards" platforms. Of course things change, one learn and apply new skills, but underlying theme was new solutions will be done proper experts this time. While I have to hang around to explain and repent my past mistakes if I want to hold onto job.