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Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by boomlinde on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @04:45AM (#49358784)
I saw a video about a fatal oil drilling accident where the resulting investigation found that an operator had ignored the alarm which indicated the underlying issue because there were other alarms sounding for things he'd been told to ignore because they were benign. This is apparently common enough cause of problems that there is a term for it (other than "crying wolf"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alarm_fatigue

I've seen it during my career as a software developer, too. Heaps of alert spam that remained unread because 99% of them were useless and not indicative of a problem on our end. It's important to be careful about alerts so you know when real problems occur.

Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by OroPla on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @07:44AM (#49360227)
Reminds me of my time in a large dormitory. The first time the fire alarm went off at night without there even being a fire, I went outside. All the other times - and I lost track of counting - I just ignored it and went back to sleep.
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by seki285 on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @11:25AM (#49362851)
This. The alarm would go off but I'd continue playing dota
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by marcosdumay on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @11:30AM (#49362915)
I once worked at a building that decided it was a good safety practice to test the fire alarms every 3 months.
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by Hugsbox on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @01:12PM (#49364287)
My job does it weekly. It's a massive factory too, so the alarms are absolutely ear-splitting. They make a big deal out of safety, and wearing ear protection out on the production floor when I go out there, and all this other stuff, yet on a weekly basis they're absolutely shattering my ear drums. Love it.
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by Scoundreller on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @02:52PM (#49365666)
We need louder sirens to counteract the hearing damage caused by our old sirens.
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by badpun on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @02:58PM (#49365736)
Maybe they must be so loud because people wear hearing protection?
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by Muromec on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:02AM (#49358918)
This also how a part of how a certain flagship got promoted to a submarine recently.
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by sylware on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @07:38AM (#49360170)
In France, we have a bed story for children related to exactly that: "Pierre et le loup" (aka your "crying wolf").

It may be a EU wide tale.

Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by boomlinde on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @08:17AM (#49360516)
It's one of Aesop's fables, so it's probably widely known in all of Europe.
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by olsondv on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @07:57AM (#49360321)
It’s a common tale in English speaking world as well, but we don’t use it as a bedtime story because of the ending.

Edit. Didn’t realize it might just be an English version where the boy is killed and eaten. Aesop’s original didn’t have that. Just the sheep killed.

Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by eloisant on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @08:56AM (#49360974)
You're thinking about The Boy who Cried Wolf, Pierre et le Loup is a different story.
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by quietbritishjim on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @11:27AM (#49362875)
And Pierre et le Loup seems to be Peter and the Wolf which is a Russian story / piece of music.
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by soco on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:44AM (#49359209)
And because of this, no browser of mine is allowed to send notifications, and also no app by default - they have to prove themselves useful first. Sorry fellow developers working on notifications, your work goes to the drain (mostly).
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by rithdmc on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @06:11AM (#49359400)
I recently unsubscribed from a grocery delivery service becuase they kept pushing adverts through their app. I gave them notification permission so I could see when my delivery is nearby, not so they could spam me. Voting with my wallet on this one.

(For the curious, a subscription means free delivery. The subscription costs 10 euro a month, and if you don't have a subscription, the delivery fee is around 4 euro)

Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by bluefirebrand on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @10:02AM (#49361765)
> For the curious, a subscription means free delivery

It sounds like a subscription means ad-funded delivery to me though

Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by rithdmc on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @11:18AM (#49362768)
You don't need a subscription to use the app, and I presume these ads are pushed to all users.
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by aprentic on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @10:49AM (#49362416)
That's clearly how it turned out but going in, I would have expected the a subscription to be a discount in exchange for a commitment of repeat business.
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by bluefirebrand on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @12:47PM (#49363958)
Yeah I would expect a subscription to remove ads

Personally I would absolutely refuse to pay for services that still continue to serve me ads even though I'm paying

I loathe advertising. I don't understand why most people seem so apathetic about it

Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by voidUpdate on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @10:21AM (#49362018)
I've recently had to add a notifications system for an app I manage for a client. The client requested it, and I work as part of a larger company, so I couldn't exactly say no, but I felt pretty icky doing it
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by sixothree on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @12:35PM (#49363801)
> no browser of mine is allowed to send notifications

I do this for different reasons. I just don't want every site knowing when I'm logged in and using my computer, which computer that is, and whatever else information they're grabbing all day.

Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by philipwhiuk on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @07:20AM (#49360001)
On a finance level this is why correctly setting 'accidental trade limits' correctly is important. Otherwise traders see them so often they click through them.
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by cucumber3732842 on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @06:40AM (#49359658)
In the US spewing all the alarms at the line level employees and fatiguing the shit out of them is a direct (and predictable, but of course everyone who complained in advance got sneered at by the usual demographics) result of OSHA policy. Same bunch of moronic incentives that result in there being a policy against everything and employees technically violating the rules to work normally. Whenever you see an alarm fatigue workplace there's usually a rule in the rulebook that says they have to stop what they're doing for every alarm until it's triaged and documented. This is how the rules financially incentivize the company to act even if it's stupid and results in more screw ups.
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by pjc50 on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @07:57AM (#49360328)
> a policy against everything and employees technically violating the rules to work normally.

This is called "normalization of deviance" and generally should be avoided, because it often precedes a serious accident.

Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by cucumber3732842 on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @08:21AM (#49360558)
>This is called "normalization of deviance"

You don't even need to get to the point of breaking the rules for it to be a problem. This is stupid human factors type stuff.

The filthy capitalists don't want their oil rigs going kaboom and their expensively trained workers having injury downtime. There is a natural incentive alignment to some extent here.

And then the useful idiots show up, and rather than fostering that alignment they put their thumb on the scale and they change the calculations. The filthy capitalists crunch the numbers and they realize that over the life of the oil rig and a fleet of some number of them they'll make more money spewing alarms at the guys running the place until their eyes glaze over. Sure he'll miss something important blowing up the works with loss of life and limb 2/<big number> amount of the time instead of 1/<big number> if you'd have tuned it right buuuuut, you'll lose less money that way because if you do it the "right" way you'll get dinged by the OSHA people every time some petty accident type happens because you turned the alarm for that one off so as not to fatigue people. A typical example is some industrial facility where policy defines "hot" as anything lukewarm and up and so they implicitly train people to ignore it. People are opening "hot" equipment all the time, getting approvals to do it, ignoring warning lights, etc, etc, so basically no net improvement in actual safety over having nothing at all. And this is fine until one day someone gets killed because they let loose something that was 300deg not 110. You see this goddamn fact pattern all the time. Machinery beepers, hazard signage and barriers, machinery interlocks, etc, etc, it never fucking ends.

Great job guys, Mission Accomplished (TM). When everything is a hazard nothing is.

Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by ubertaco on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @07:45AM (#49360230)
Yeah, if only the government didn't regulate that pesky

checks notes

workplace safety, then for-profit companies could be free to act for the good of all, like they always do!

Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by bigstrat2003 on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @01:14PM (#49364315)
Nobody has said that, so you're arguing against a strawman. The parent poster made the argument that there's too much government regulation such that it causes fatigue and ignoring the rules, not that there should be zero.
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by sporkland on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @09:37AM (#49361434)
In college they made us study the case of therac-25 so we understood the dangers of creating too many errors in our software.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25

Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by quietbritishjim on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @10:00AM (#49361743)
I didn't think that was about too many alarms going off and so that a real one was being ignored, and re-reading the article doesn't give that impression either. It was more to do with a bug in the user interface (it appeared that you were re-editing a field you'd just filled in but actually weren't) and a memory corruption bug, along with assuming that software always works so doesn't need any additional checks. Are you thinking of another software failure?

(If by "dangers of creating too many errors" you just meant "don't create too many bugs" then that's not really relevant to this conversation, and also totally the wrong lesson to learn from that incident. The lesson is, software will inevitably have bugs, so make sure you have redundant checks to minimise their impact.)

Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by bluGill on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @10:11AM (#49361894)
The alarms were safety hardware interlocks. Nobody asked why and found the UI bugs that was causing this. The hardware interlocks were removed because the system had been working safely for so long. This was really feedback - nobody informed the developers that safety hardware interlocks were locking all the time.

Edit: see replies, originally I wrote fuses, but hardware interlocks is more correct.

Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by quietbritishjim on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @10:18AM (#49361970)
The Wikipedia article the previous commenter linked doesn't mention this, and I've looked at a few sources linked from it and they don't mention it either.

They mention that previous Therac machines had "hardware interlocks" to prevent this sort of issue - maybe those are the safety fuses you're both talking about? - but it says they were never included in Therac-25 in the first place, because the software was assumed to be so reliable, not that they were removed because they blew.

Are you sure this is the same incident? Do you have a link to a source about it?

Edit: This article cited in Wikipedia is much more comprehensive and mentions that Therac-20 did have these fuses, in addition to hardware interlocks. But they weren't disabled because the real alarms were drowned out by false alarms - instead they all represented real instances of the issue.

https://web.archive.org/web/20041128024227/http://www.cs.umd...

(Middle column of the 12th page of PDF, numbered page 29 of the publication.)

> The Therac-20 at the University of Chicago is used to teach students in a radiation therapy school conducted by the center. The center’s physicist, Frank Borger, noticed that whenever a new class of students started using the Therac-20, fuses and breakers on the machine tripped, shutting down the unit. These failures, which had been occurring ever since the center had acquired the machine, might appear three times a week while new students operated the machine and then disappear for months. Borger determined that new students make lots of different types of mistakes and use “creative methods of editing” parameters on the console. Through experimentation, he found that certain editing sequences correlated with blown fuses and determined that the same computer bug (as in the Therac-25 soft- ware) was responsible. The physicist notified the FDA, which notified Therac-20 users.*

> The software error is just a nuisance on the Therac-20 because this machine has independent hardware protective circuits for monitoring the electron-beam scanning. The protective circuits do not allow the beam to turn on, so there is no danger of radiation exposure to a patient. While the Therac-20 relies on mechanical interlocks for monitoring the machine, the Therac-25 relies largely on software.

Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by Espressosaurus on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @10:51AM (#49362454)
Yeah, the lack of hardware interlocks are part of what makes it a (literal!) textbook case for software engineering ethics.

I remember talking about it several times over my college career, and for good reason.

To this day when people start talking about software in the loop in a safety context I get extremely twitchy. I don't let that shit happen on my watch.

Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by milesvp on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @12:50PM (#49364011)
I had an interview once for a firmware position dealing with (relatively) high wattage transmitters. They wanted to know how I’d deal with some conditions where I’d need to turn off the power quickly. After talking a bit about my experience with hard real time deadlines, I sheepishly asked why they didn’t have diodes to mitigate the problem. I think it was one of the questions that got me an offer. Apparently having firmware engineers with even minor EE background and will think about analogue design is a little uncommon.

Today, I’d ask about more ways to push the responsibility away from the firmware to stop catastrophic failures. If the debugger pauses the CPU you can’t use the CPU to regulate things. I’ve worked on things where the failure mode can be explosive and it makes dev really harrowing if you can’t rely on hardware interlocks.

Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by yuye on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @03:08PM (#49365864)
>Apparently having firmware engineers with even minor EE background and will think about analogue design is a little uncommon.

They often don't have to know how the nitty-gritty of the HW works. HALs are used everywhere, and some of them abstract a lot away. I've interviewed embedded SWEs that couldn't explain how the tri-state buffers work within GPIO.

Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by bluGill on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @10:46AM (#49362370)
It has been a few years since I last read the report. Hardware interlocks is likely what I remembered as fuses.
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by quietbritishjim on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @02:47PM (#49365595)
You were right that fuses were involved, just on a different model. See my edited comment.
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by jollyllama on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @01:19PM (#49364391)
The miscommunication between GGP and GP ITT exposes the contextual minefield of ambiguity we navigate daily. What is an "error"? A mistake made by the developer, or a fault condition exposed to users?
Re:And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway by cactacea on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @03:09PM (#49365886)
To go deeper than just alarming this is more accurately referred to as normalization of deviance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalization_of_deviance