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Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by TeriyakiBomb on Monday July 13, 2026 @08:04AM (#48891407)
A drum I've been banging increasingly often recently is that having friction and time to work ideas over in your mind adds huge amounts of value. Vibe coded projects have this very specific, well, vibe to them where you can clearly see that the lack of time to digest has allowed the person to not challenge their own worst impulses. You can see it in the feature bloat, the lack of depth and polish in core features and the wild asides you tend to talk yourself out of still on display.
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by ramses0 on Monday July 13, 2026 @08:43AM (#48891836)
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by nivethan on Monday July 13, 2026 @09:03AM (#48892062)
thanks for that link, I've thought that friction was helpful but this gives me a word and a concept to look at.
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by zogrodea on Wednesday July 15, 2026 @11:24AM (#48922282)
Happy to learn about the concept today. It resonates with me.

I sometimes think of something Kant wrote, about how friction (hardship, etc.) elevates us.

In Kant's own words:

"Without those in themselves unamiable characteristics of unsociability from whence opposition springs-characteristics each man must find in his own selfish pretensions-all talents would remain hidden, unborn in an Arcadian shepherd’s life, with all its concord, contentment, and mutual affection. Men, good-natured as the sheep they herd, would hardly reach a higher worth than their beasts; they would not fill the empty place in creation by achieving their end, which is rational nature. Thanks be to Nature, then, for the incompatibility, for heartless competitive vanity, for the insatiable desire to possess and to rule! Without them, all the excellent natural capacities of humanity would forever sleep, undeveloped. Man wishes concord; but Nature knows better what is good for the race; she wills discord. He wishes to live comfortably and pleasantly; Nature wills that he should be plunged from sloth and passive contentment into labor and trouble, in order that he may find means of extricating himself from them. The natural urges to this, the sources of unsociableness and mutual opposition from which so many evils arise, drive men to new exertions of their forces and thus to the manifold development of their capacities. They thereby perhaps show the ordering of a wise Creator and not the hand of an evil spirit, who bungled in his great work or spoiled it out of envy."

See the section titled "FOURTH THESIS" at the following link if interested.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Idea_for_a_Universal_History_...

Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by ramses0 on Wednesday July 15, 2026 @08:41PM (#48929117)
George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903): "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/html/end-user.html

"""Master Foo turned to the end-user. “Tell me”, he inquired, “why do you seek the Way?”

“I am discontent with the software I see around me”, the end user replied. “It neither performs reliably nor pleases the eye and hand. Having heard that the Unix way, though difficult, is superior, I seek to cast aside all snares and delusions”."""

Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by sph on Monday July 13, 2026 @09:18AM (#48892242)
Yes, there is a widespread belief in tech that 'removing friction' is a good direction to aim for. But you can have too little friction that completely ruins a product and the user experience.

In game design friction very important; remove all friction and you don't even have a game any more, you might as well show the You Win screen. My favourite metaphor for it is sex: there is no sex without friction.

What LLM have done is massively reduce the friction of intellectual effort, completely devaluing most expressions of it.

Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by bayindirh on Monday July 13, 2026 @10:13AM (#48893061)
You can't build muscle without resistance, you can't cook ideas without friction.

Both needs heat.

Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by pmg101 on Monday July 13, 2026 @02:22PM (#48896669)
If you wanna travel faster you can build muscle, or you can just get in a car.
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by kentm on Monday July 13, 2026 @06:18PM (#48899664)
You have to get licensed to drive a car and there are rules. If you are caught breaking the rules you can be fined (or jailed if your rule breaking harms others enough). In extreme cases of rule breaking you can lose permission to drive the car.

This is all friction that is intended to make car-driving work at scale.

Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by LogicFailsMe on Monday July 13, 2026 @10:34AM (#48893378)
Zero Player Games and Cow Clicker calling...

There really, truly, absolutely, 100% is no accounting for taste...

Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by zem on Monday July 13, 2026 @12:28PM (#48895050)
brings back fond memories of idlerpg
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by quirkot on Monday July 13, 2026 @09:36AM (#48892474)
In terms of removing friction, I think of moving a boulder. Wheels = good. Ice slide = bad
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by icodar on Monday July 13, 2026 @02:11PM (#48896510)
Some friction can be painful. It's not always beneficial.
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by TeriyakiBomb on Monday July 13, 2026 @03:37PM (#48897702)
I don't think it inherently devalues it. But the mediocre baseline for it and how much it entices you to allow it to just spit out that mediocrity takes discipline I don't think everyone has. I've seen some lean in and keep their heads just fine. I've seen others lean in and become disillusioned.

Worst of all I've seen good engineers lean in and begin thinking uncritically and magically.

Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by deaton on Monday July 13, 2026 @09:20AM (#48892264)
I think you're right, and I think this principle of friction-is-good-actually applies to a lot more domains than just software, but whether the world will ever accept that is a different question.
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by RetroTechie on Monday July 13, 2026 @11:20AM (#48894075)
It's a flavour of Jevons paradox. Make production of software much more efficient (requiring fewer developer-hours), then you might get:

1. Same services provided using similar software stack, but maintained by fewer developers. I suspect this may hold for some sectors in the economy. Or

2. The Jevons case: similar # of developers maintaining a much bigger software stack that provides more services.

I might add:

2a: Similar but with lots of accidental complexity everywhere.

Probably we're heading towards some mix of the above? Depending on which application area you're talking about. Web dev is a lost cause, deeply-embedded won't see a big shake-up.

Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by groundzeros2015 on Monday July 13, 2026 @09:57AM (#48892777)
I know of some financial analysts who don’t like to pull data in from reports automatically. They prefer to read each row and copy it into their spreadsheet because they actually contemplate what the number means.
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by sph on Monday July 13, 2026 @12:15PM (#48894872)
Same with taking notes by hand compared to writing on a keyboard, and the effect it has on memory retention is well researched.
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by TeriyakiBomb on Monday July 13, 2026 @03:41PM (#48897753)
I also think it's universal. When talking about this IRL I always say:

"If one teenager works hard and saves for a few years to buy themselves a car and another has theirs bought for them on a whim, who would appreciate their car more?"

Odds are it's the former, not always. But mostly.

Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by deaux on Monday July 13, 2026 @09:53AM (#48892698)
Yes and no.

Let's first settle on the definition of vibecoding so that we're not miscommunicating over definitions. I'm using the one that seems the median definition nowadays: >95% of the code written by LLMs, <60% of the output code human-reviewed, meaning there's a large part of the codebase that no human ever reviews.

As you said it's about time invested in thinking about it, yes. But remember that even pre-AI >90% of software got never used, it was dead on arrival. Look up "success rate of software projects in business".

You can put lots of time into thinking and vibecode everything. You can put very little time into thinking and write by hand. Of course, vibecoding makes the former much more likely. But nothing about it is inherent to it.

Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by foobarchu on Monday July 13, 2026 @07:27PM (#48900325)
I hate to be the guy arguing semantics, but is that the median definition? Everyone I know defines vibe coding as ignoring the actual output code completely and evaluating the result by how it behaves under test. Non-coders vibe code by default, because they don't understand how to read the code in the first place. Developers vibe code when they just trust the LLM to have been right about the behavior they don't explicitly test for. Vibe coding is the act of ignoring most possible friction, for better or worse.
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by deaux on Monday July 13, 2026 @11:36PM (#48902005)
It is. There are many people on here who think of having any LLM generated, never-human-reviewed code in the codebase, as vibecoding. There are also people like you, who believe it's about completely ignoring it, and even human-reviewing 10% of the code means it's not vibecoding. The median definition, at least on here, is somewhere in the middle, around "a large portion of the code is never looked at by a human".
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by mech998877 on Monday July 13, 2026 @10:19AM (#48893159)
I disagree with this, and I've been spending time thinking about it because some of my friends had a similar conversation.

The friction itself does not add value. The time spent thinking on the problem does. Friction should be minimized beyond the absolute bare minimum. Programming is a discipline where your workstation is already streamlined, and it is easy to forget where the friction is. Programming is done in a world of pure though, in a sense, so most of the friction already lives in your head, and it is difficult to distinguish effort wasted fighting friction from effort making real progress.

Consider the Wright brothers. They worked iteratively. When they wanted to design an airplane they moved from Ohio to a windy place with lots of loose sand (NC outer banks). Why? So that they could do test runs with good wind conditions (for an airplane that is barely able to fly this matters a lot) and crash with the least amount of damage. They rebuilt the airplane dozens and dozens of times and had a workshop tuned to their needs on location. They reduced friction wherever they could so that they got the most work done that they could with the least amount of distraction.

Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by fluoridation on Monday July 13, 2026 @10:37AM (#48893418)
>Programming is done in a world of pure though, in a sense, so most of the friction already lives in your head

It seems that way, but that's not actually true. A fully greased-up brain would produce just incoherent nonsense decoupled from reality, because it would lack all constraints that would allow it to judge the value of an idea (i.e. how possible and useful it would be to implement in the real world). The friction comes from fitting your ideas into the real world.

>They reduced friction wherever they could so that they got the most work done that they could with the least amount of distraction.

They reduced unnecessary friction. They could have eliminated all friction by imagining a teleporter machine that can send you anywhere instantly and that runs on the hopes of children. But they still wanted the friction of unsuccessful attempts so they could actually build a plane that worked.

Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by mech998877 on Monday July 13, 2026 @11:55AM (#48894615)
Your concluding example doesn't make sense to me but I think that it's because we have different definitions for what friction means here. It's also kind of hard to define in context.

I would say that, within the Wright Brothers example, working with a battered, worn-out screwdriver is an example of friction (or, perhaps having to use a bit and brace instead of a power drill), but the act of building a new unsuccessful airplane iteration is not friction. Every build is asking physics for feedback on the design; every airplane build is just the same as running your code through the compiler. I wish I had a good word to distinguish this from friction. The closest thing I can imagine is how waste is defined in Lean Manufacturing, but keeping in mind that what you are manufacturing is Ideas and Software.

Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by fluoridation on Monday July 13, 2026 @12:32PM (#48895103)
It sounds like you're not disagreeing with what the other person was saying then, you're just disagreeing with their application of the word "friction". I don't think it makes much sense to argue about the precise definition of a metaphor.
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by TeriyakiBomb on Monday July 13, 2026 @03:30PM (#48897611)
Didn't see this reply before adding my own. Yes, I think we're in agreement.
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by mech998877 on Monday July 13, 2026 @03:52PM (#48897874)
fair enough. I'm probably still in disagreement with the friends I mentioned earlier!
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by edude03 on Monday July 13, 2026 @10:46AM (#48893533)
I liken it to dieting. If your only goal is to be certain weight, then learning how to cook, learning how to portion, learning to make a meal plan, learning about macro nutrients is all "friction" now that we have GLPs. And maybe using a meal prep service reduces some "unnecessary friction" but you still would have to learn a bunch of useful skills along the way.

Concretely, If your only goal is to produce "software" then learning about design, planning, project management, testing etc is all unnecessary friction when you can just ask an LLM to "make it so"

Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by Cyberdog on Monday July 13, 2026 @01:56PM (#48896316)
As someone who has been losing weight over the past year, the cost of GLP1s is and was a greater point of friction to me compared to just eating less garbage.
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by overgard on Monday July 13, 2026 @03:13PM (#48897357)
Nitpick, but this is misunderstanding GLPs (I'm on them). If you don't change your diet and your habits, yeah, you'll temporarily lose weight but it'll come right back when you're off it AND you'll lose a lot of muscle. You kinda still need to do "the right things", it's not a magic cure all. (Of course, same thing can be said of AI).
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by edude03 on Monday July 13, 2026 @03:54PM (#48897902)
A fair callout, though yes it was supposed to be a simplified analogy. I think you got it exactly right though that its temporary in the same that I'd argue the benefits of using AI are temporary
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by overgard on Monday July 13, 2026 @04:37PM (#48898486)
I definitely agree with your overall point, just wanted to correct that one thing.
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by theshrike79 on Tuesday July 14, 2026 @07:24PM (#48914248)
GLP's don't make you lose muscle. Losing weight without exercising does.

You'll get the exact same muscle loss with a CICO calculation weight loss.

Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by panarky on Monday July 13, 2026 @11:10AM (#48893921)
> The friction itself does not add value

Exactly. I don't have to write binary machine code directly, every zero and one artisanally crafted by hand, to have thought deeply for years about a how to solve a problem.

In fact, choosing the right level of abstraction is essential to my ability to solve the problem.

For most problems, the friction of writing binary code by hand is the wrong level.

And we're discovering that many important problems can be solved faster and with greater quality than can be achieved by dogmatically hand-writing every line of source code just for the friction.

Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by crowdhailer on Monday July 13, 2026 @11:52AM (#48894573)
I think that friction of feedback and friction of construction are two different things. Having lots of tokens to build things doesn't mean you have more feedback. I'm a bun user I like it. I can't really comment from my use on what the Zig vs Rust rewrite means to me.
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by TeriyakiBomb on Monday July 13, 2026 @03:27PM (#48897564)
I think this is just my choice of wording, friction as a means of slowing down and thinking something through is useful. Friction isn't just a roadblock. For all the times you want to do something exotic, throw an hour or two at it and in the process realise it was a bad idea and a more elegant idea emerges. That, that's the kind of useful friction I mean.

But overall yes, time spent thinking is the thing that matters.

It's less "there should be more friction" and more "LLMs remove too much". Instant gratification is great if you're a consumer, awful if you're a creator.

Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by hughw on Monday July 13, 2026 @11:17AM (#48894035)
I feel this too but it's very hard to argue myself out of adding features like mad. Features, features, features. Tech debt may be an illusion, if the LLM can keep maintaining it all.
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by apsurd on Monday July 13, 2026 @12:09PM (#48894795)
features with theoretical use incur cost up front and yield no value. tech debt is only part of the cost, the other is opportunity cost of writing the OPTION. There’s really no good reason to create theoretical use features.

Thinking of software from finance and derivatives pov really blew my mind. here’s the article, it has AI smell but it’s short and the mental model is good: https://newsletter.kentbeck.com/p/the-cost-yagni-was-never-a...

it’s a breakthrough for me because i too like to build so it’s hard to not build. With options, i don’t get to build blindly but there’s still satisfaction in holding the option. collect the options, system design them, build on that layer.

Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by capr on Tuesday July 14, 2026 @11:28AM (#48908330)
That analogy works for app code, it doesn't work for technologies, library, frameworks, algorithms. Why build a compiler for this app? YAGNI! makes no sense.
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by ultimafan on Monday July 13, 2026 @07:42PM (#48900459)
I agree with this wholeheartedly, it's harder to notice this in a field you are a professional in, but what really opened my eyes was noticing how often friction kept me from making mistakes in hobbyist metalworking/woodworking projects. More than once I've either made or didn't make mistakes based entirely on if the tool I "needed" for the next step was in arms reach or a walk across the garage and a search through multiple toolboxes.
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by politician on Tuesday July 14, 2026 @10:07AM (#48907138)
Ugh. Most of this thread can be resolved by realizing that Teriyaki Bomb is using the word "friction" as a synonym for "constraints" and not "toil".
Re:Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke by samspot on Tuesday July 14, 2026 @03:56PM (#48912184)
Alternatively, you can easily add the bloat, discover if it has real value, and then strip it without the bad feeling of having sunk countless hours creating it. Vibe coding is excellent for making the first prototype to throw away.