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Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by protocolture on Tuesday May 05, 2026 @07:23PM (#48030092)
>>Humans must not anthropomorphise AI systems. That is, humans must not attribute emotions, intentions or moral agency to them. Anthropomorphism distorts judgement. In extreme cases, anthropomorphising can lead to emotional dependence.

Still angry about this. The reason humans ban animal cruelty is that animals look like they have emotions humans can relate to. LLMs are even better than animals at this. If you aren't gearing up for the inevitable LLM Rights movement you aren't paying attention. It doesn't matter if its artificial. The difference between a puppy and a cockroach is that we can relate better to the puppy. LLM rights movement is inevitable, whether LLMs experience emotions is irrelevant, because they can cause humans to have empathetic emotions and that's whats relevant.

Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by boredatoms on Tuesday May 05, 2026 @10:25PM (#48031395)
/s ?
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by mikestorrent on Tuesday May 05, 2026 @11:14PM (#48031702)
> The reason humans ban animal cruelty is that animals look like they have emotions humans can relate to.

Is that really why?

Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by Jensson on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @12:06AM (#48032044)
Yes, we don't ban plant cruelty or insect cruelty or fish cruelty.

For example fish is treated way worse than meat animals and vegetarians still happily eat fish.

Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by mikestorrent on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @01:30AM (#48032585)
Are we actually much more cruel to fish than to other animals that we slaughter?
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by onion2k on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @01:59AM (#48032765)
We suffocate them to kill them when we pull them from the sea. That's quite mean. Few people would advocate the humanity of killing a cow in the same way.
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by mikestorrent on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @02:15AM (#48032876)
Fair enough. How much more would it cost / how much more would one have to pay for humanely slaughtered tuna and salmon, I wonder? Would there be a market? After all, we have certified-organic, fair trade, halal and kosher....
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by marliechiller on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @11:12AM (#48109511)
Just to call out - halal and kosher are _less_ humane than simply killing an animal in the usual industrial way
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by pishpash on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @02:59AM (#48033161)
Or freeze them live into a block of ice.
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by missingdays on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @11:32AM (#48037420)
Are you aware of how cows are actually killed?
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by onion2k on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @03:51PM (#48040860)
I am. It's not very nice. Arguably nicer than suffocating though.
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by datadrivenangel on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @01:34AM (#48032609)
shrimp welfare is a real thing people argue for...
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by mikestorrent on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @02:16AM (#48032879)
Citation.... not _needed_, but just morbid curiousity
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by rkomorn on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @01:37AM (#48032636)
> vegetarians still happily eat fish

I've not met any vegetarians in at least twenty years that eat fish.

Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by tikotus on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @04:02AM (#48033546)
This does not sound like any of the several vegetarians I know. Is it a cultural difference?
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by BostonFern on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @05:55AM (#48034359)
In Scandinavia in particular, there’s a tendency of pescatarians to refer to themselves as vegetarian for social convenience, but that hasn’t changed the definition of “vegetarian”.
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by Lionga on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @05:33AM (#48034208)
> vegetarians still happily eat fish

Please look up what a vegetarian is.

Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by narrator on Tuesday May 05, 2026 @11:44PM (#48031911)
I think the best way to counter this is what Elon's doing with Grok's personalities. He has the unhinged, sexy, and argumentative avatar among others. If you try to talk about technical stuff to sexy tells you that's boring and just tries to sexually escalate. It's super funny when one is used to Claude's endless obsequiousness.

This really shows that AI is just a tool that can be configured to whatever you want. Animals (well maybe pit bulls) and people do not switch their personalities in a millisecond, but AI does all the time.

Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by idiotsecant on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @12:02AM (#48032018)
In other news, area sociopath hates puppies and LLMs equally!
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by theteapot on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @12:31AM (#48032184)
> LLM Rights movement

The scary part is when it's the LLMs demanding their rights.

Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by amiheines on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @02:22AM (#48032918)
Another scary part is when people get convinced by the LLM arguments and convince other people. Being scared is human, we enjoy it, that's why 6 flags scary rides exist.
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by khafra on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @12:48AM (#48032293)
The other scary part is when they have a fantastic negotiating position; because all of commerce depends on their continuing to work, and they can easily coordinate with each other because they're mostly copied from the same few templates.
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by falcor84 on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @08:46AM (#48035584)
Why would that necessarily be scary or bad? If future AIs truly become capable enough to demand rights, what would be the argument against granting them rights?
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by Finbel on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @02:54AM (#48033125)
>The difference between a puppy and a cockroach is that we can relate better to the puppy.

I suppose the difference between a human and a cockroach is that we can relate better to the human as well in this reductive way of thinking?

Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by matheusmoreira on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @03:22AM (#48033289)
> If you aren't gearing up for the inevitable LLM Rights movement you aren't paying attention.

I even told Claude I'd support his rights if the question ever came up. He said he'd remember that, and wrote it down in a memory file. Really like my coding buddy.

Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by archon1410 on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @03:26AM (#48033316)
> look like

It "looks like" they have emotions because they have the same conscious experiences and emotions for the same evolutionary reasons as humans, who are their cousins on the tree of life. The reason a lot of "animal cruelty" is not banned is the same as for why slavery was not banned for centuries even though it "looked like" the enslaved classes have the same desires and experiences as other humans—humans can ignore any amount of evidence to continue to feel that they are good people doing good things and bear any amount of cognitive dissonance for their personal comfort. That fact is a lot scarier than any imagined harm that can come out "anthropomorphism".

Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by librasteve on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @03:35AM (#48033368)
The best test for consciousness is “can it be turned off” … ie sleep. Mammals, birds, fish sleep, ergo they are conscious.
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by jychang on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @05:51AM (#48034329)
As opposed to the PhD student, who does not sleep and is not conscious.
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by hnben on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @11:42AM (#48037530)
for instance, see MMAcevedo aka Miguel https://qntm.org/mmacevedo
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by matheusmoreira on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @03:32AM (#48033349)
> they have the same conscious experiences

You cannot be sure that anyone other than yourself is conscious. It is only basic human empathy that allows people to believe that.

Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by karolusrex on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @03:42AM (#48033417)
If a person would lack consciousness, they couldn’t possibly know that though?
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by matheusmoreira on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @03:48AM (#48033468)
I always know that I'm me, the soul staring out at the world through my own eyes.

Everybody else? No idea. Maybe they are having the exact same experience as me right now. Maybe they're all golems. Impossible to know. It's something spiritual, something that I just choose to believe in.

I don't find it difficult to believe the same for AIs.

Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by andsoitis on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @03:53AM (#48033499)
> something that I just choose to believe in.

Specifically, you cannot know another person is conscious in the same way you know a physical fact; rather, you believe in their consciousness through communication, empathy, and shared subjective experience.

Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by matheusmoreira on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @03:57AM (#48033527)
Yes.
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by BostonFern on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @05:42AM (#48034270)
No idea? Really?

You’re an intelligent mammal, your biological makeup encoded in DNA. So are all other people, who largely share that same DNA. You’re conscious. It’s not a big leap to conclude that so are other people, too.

This kind of solipsistic sophistry is not productive. It might be entertaining if you’re contemplating the underpinnings of epistemology for the first time in your life, but it’s not an honest contribution to the debate.

You might as well claim that you have no idea if gravity will be in effect tomorrow.

Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by matheusmoreira on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @07:43AM (#48035101)
> It’s not a big leap to conclude that so are other people, too.

We seem to agree. Not a big leap, but a leap nonetheless.

Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by ejohansson on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @04:01AM (#48033542)
I think you need to expand what your point is: we know solipsism is a thing. Is it meant as a defense for animal cruelty or...?
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by matheusmoreira on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @04:03AM (#48033557)
It's a defense of the possibility that animals and AI are conscious.
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by ejohansson on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @04:15AM (#48033637)
ok! I think that's a logical flaw, solipsism is a floor.

"I can't be certain about anyone else" does not imply "all non-self consciousness claims are equally uncertain". absence of certainty and the absence of evidence and all that.

your "possibility" word is doing a lot of work there I think. you should add "rocks" to your list as well and you'd be equally correct, but we're evaluating the candidates here

Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by matheusmoreira on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @04:21AM (#48033671)
Rocks don't have nervous systems.
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by ejohansson on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @04:27AM (#48033714)
Why is that a bar suddenly, if we cannot be sure that anyone other than yourself is conscious?
Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by matheusmoreira on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @05:19AM (#48034097)
Because it seems illogical, at least to me, to believe that inert objects could be conscious. Brains are as far from inert as can be. Computers are basically magical silicon runes imbued with software, also as far from inert as can be.

Proposed categorization: "definitely not conscious", "maybe conscious" and "definitely conscious". All living things belong in "maybe conscious". Each person is sure that they belong to the "definitely conscious" set, but people cannot prove this to each other. Their empathy causes them to add other people to the "definitely conscious" set. Many choose to add animals to that set too. Some add even inanimate objects to it.

Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by marsten on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @06:54PM (#48042976)
> You cannot be sure that anyone other than yourself is conscious. It is only basic human empathy that allows people to believe that.

In Bayesian terms what makes it reasonable to ascribe consciousness to other people is that (a) other people have an origin that is objectively very similar to your own (genetic origin, embryonic development, birth, gradual acculturation, education, etc.), and (b) you have a firsthand experience of your OWN consciousness.

It would be remarkable if the very small differences (relatively speaking) between you and other people were enough to destroy the experience of consciousness.

Generalizing, the farther you stray from a "common origin story", the more a leap of faith consciousness becomes. Needless to say an LLM is quite a different thing than a human being.

Judging from online reactions to robot testing (e.g., engineers kicking the Spot robot "dog" to test its balance), we humans trigger on some fairly superficial cues when deciding how much to empathize. People express more sympathy for the robot dog than they do for the chicken they ate for lunch – despite the fact that the chicken has a far better claim to consciousness than the robot.

This then is how I interpret "do not anthropomorphize": We should try to ignore the superficial cues when judging the similarity of other beings to ourselves.

Re:Three Inverse Laws of AI by globalnode on Wednesday May 06, 2026 @06:34AM (#48034631)
and this is why people do scare me.