https://mastodon.social/@juliank
>Senior Engineer at Canonical.
And if you liked that refrain, here's another one.
You should not only avoid impropriety, but also the appearance of impropriety.
In reality a lot of the heavily used parts of Linux (and open source generally) are going to have some commercial involvement or are we suggesting that no one should be paid by any of the companies backing Linux who use Linux because to me that sounds worse.
Whether you like it or not, Linux/Open Source hasn't been entirely the preserve of unpaid people doing it for fun for a long time.
I don't understand how people keep giving the benefit of the doubt to corporations.
They aren't people. They feel no guilt and have no shame.
>They are of no commercial interest to Ubuntu.
Which is plainly false.
Julian can believe whatever he wants, in fact the more naively idealistic he is the better for Canonical.
The fact of the matter is that corporate Linux's benefits from impossible to run setups. That's the whole business model. The more convoluted the setup is the more money they make. Rust fits into this business model perfectly.
You'd think people would have learned this after the Nth rug pull from supposed champions of free software like RedHat.
It's not even as if Canonical has a particularly bad reputation for that kind of thing.
You should not only avoid appearance of impropriety, but also impropriety.
> Assume good faith.
I'm sure OP believes what they say. Otherwise they wouldn't be paid to say it.
sure some are also payed by a foundation. Which is also payed by companies but with a degree of decoupling of influence.
and some pay them self, e.g. fully voluntary work, but most dev can't afford to do so on a long term, high time commitment manner. So a lot of major changes and contributions end up coming from people directly or indirectly "payed" by some company.
and that's pretty common across most "older, larger, sustainable and still developed OSS"
(LLVM even used to have an in-tree DEC Alpha backend, though that was back in 2011 and not relevant to any version of Rust.)
[0] Looks like there is basic initial support but no 'core' or 'std' builds yet. https://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/platform-support/m68k-unknow... This should potentially be fixable.
yes, from a pure code generation aspect
no, as all conditional-compiled platform specific code is missing.
So using it with #[no_core] should work (assuming the WIP part of the backend isn't a problem). But beyond that you have to first port libcore (should be doable) and then libstd (quite a bunch of work).
(not relevant to Debian, but cool that it's already possible)
They will be rebranded as "retro computing devices"
I’m not in the Debian world, but those do seem to me like the types of systems that could use their own specialized distros rather than being a burden to the mass market ones. It’s not as if you could run a stock configuration of any desktop environment on them anyway.
Does or should debian care? I don't know.
I don’t get the fuzz around the “retro computing” verbiage. I doubt anyone is actually running Debian on these devices out of necessity, someone who plays baroque music in reconstructed period instruments won’t balk at being called an “early music” enthusiast.
But I'm not sure. I think the new Rust dependencies are good. In an ideal world, the people who care about niche systems step up to help Rust target those systems.
I’m actually the person who added the m68k target to the Rust compiler and was also one of the driving forces of getting the backend into LLVM.
Generally speaking, getting a new backend into the Rust compiler is not trivial as it depends on LLVM support at the moment which is why asking someone to just do it is a bit arrogant.
Luckily, both rustc_codegen_gcc and gccrs are being worked on, so this problem will be resolved in the future.
I'll try to rephrase: if we never want to give up support for a platform we've supported in the past, then I think we only have two options: (1) never adopt new technology where support for said platforms doesn't come for free, or (2) leave it up to those who care about the niches to ensure support.
Neither is pain-free, but the first seems like a recipe for stagnation.
It's lovely to see the two alternative compiler paths for Rust moving forward though! Thank you!
Who is actually _running_ Debian Trixie on these platforms now?
It is counter-intuitive to me that these platforms are still unofficially supported, but 32-bit x86 [edit: and all MIPS architectures!] are not!
I am emotionally sad to see them fall by the wayside (and weirdly motivated to dig out a 68k Amiga or ‘very old Macintosh’ and try running Trixie…) but, even from a community standpoint, I find it hard to understand where and how these ports are actually used.
It’s just a bit annoying that Rust proponents are being so pushy in some cases as if Rust was the solution to everything.
This is not intended to bash you or anyone else who’s working on it - I think it’s a cool project (I have in the recent past got an 86duino ZERO to run Gentoo, just to see if an obscure old-ish piece of hardware can be useful with modern Linux on it - and it can). I do understand the reason a project like Debian might not want to have to spend resources even just to make it easier to do though.
https://sandervanderburg.blogspot.com/2025/01/running-linux-...
I didn't find what Debian version they tried but I think it's implied it's a recent version. They ran into memory issues. They had only 48MB while the recommendations are to use 64MB. It did boot though until it threw errors because of memory constraints.
They got a working system by trying Debian 3.1 though.
It's been somewhat useful for finding weird edge cases in software where for whatever reason, it doesn't reproduce easily on AArch64 or x86, but does there. (Or vice-versa, sometimes.)
I don't know that I'd say that's sufficient reason to motivate dozens of people to maintain support, but it's not purely academic entertainment or nostalgia, for that.
It looks like the last machines of each architecture were released:
Alpha in 2007
HP-PA in 2008
m68k in pre-2000 though derivatives are used in embedded systems
sh4 in 1998 (though possible usage via "J2 core" using expired patents)
This means that most are nearly 20 years old or older.
Rust target triples exist for:
m68k: https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/rustc/platform-support/m68... and https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/rustc/platform-support/m68... both at Tier 3.
(Did not find target triples for the others.)
If you are using these machines, what are you using them for? (Again, genuinely curious)
Everything else is at least i686 and Rust has perfectly adequate i686 support.
Is there any major distro left with pre i686 support?
Cars, airplanes, construction equipment, etc.
you mainly find that with systems needing certification
this are the kind of situations where having a C language spec isn't enough but you instead need a compiler version specific spec of the compiler
similar they tend to run the same checkout of the OS with project specific security updates back-ported to it, instead of doing generic system updates (because every single updates needs to be re-certified)
but that is such a huge effort that companies don't want to run a full OS at all. Just the kernel and the most minimal choice of packages you really need and not one more binary then that.
and they might have picked Debian as a initial source for their packages, kernel etc. but it isn't really Debian anymore
John Deere, Caterpillar, etc are leaning heavily into the “connected industrial equipment” world. GE engines on airplanes have updatable software and relay telemetry back to GE from flights.
The embedded world changed. You just might have missed it if your view is what shipped out before 2010.
1) The control network is air gapped, any kind of direct Internet connection is very much forbidden.
2) Embedded real-time stuff usually runs on VxWorks or RTEMS, not Linux. If it is Linux, it is an specialized distro like NI Linux.
3) Anything designed in the last 15 years uses ARM. Older systems use PowerPC. Nobody has used Alpha, HPPA, SH4 or m68k in ages. So if you really want to run Debian on it, just go ahead and use Armbian.
It’s absolutely terrible for security but remote visibility into how your 100 ton haul truck is operating via some cloud API is what people like and keep buying.
No air gap, just hooked up to a cell phone network with maybe a VPN if you’re lucky. Either way, the kernel is handling packets directly from the Internet and keeping the kernel up to date is critical.
You could make this argument for so many usecases but apparently people just enjoy bashing retrocomputing here.
According to the last Steam survey, 3% of players use Linux. Steam has 130 million active players, so that means there are 4 million people playing on Linux. Definitely not "nobody", and way bigger than the whole retrocomputing community.
By the way, I am also one of those retrocomputing guys, I have a Pentium 2 running Windows 98 right here. IMHO, trying to shoehorn modern software on old hardware is ridiculous, the whole point of retro hardware is using retro software.
Well, there are so many things were you could argue about the relevance of a userbase.
If the size of a userbase would be the only argument, Valve could just drop support for the Linux userbase which is just 2-3% of their overall userbase.
The other mentioned architectures hppa, m68k and sh4 are at a similar level.
Here is one famous example of a dude who’s managed to get PRs merged in dozens of packages, just to make them compatible with ancient versions of nodejs https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44831811
But yeah, those can figure out how to keep their own port
Either legacy systems (which are most certainly not running the current bleeding-edge Debian) or retro computing enthusiast.
These platforms are long obsolete and there are no practical reasons to run them besides "I have a box in the corner that's running untouched for the last 20 years" and "for fun". I can get a more powerful and power efficient computer (than any of these systems) from my local e-waste recycling facility for free.
> Rust is already a hard requirement on all Debian release architectures and ports except for alpha, hppa, m68k, and sh4 (which do not provide sqv).
Wonder what this means for those architectures then?