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Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by Nuzzerino on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @02:32AM (#43841884)
I was about to roast you until I realized this had to be satire given the situation, haha.

They tried to imitate grok with a cheaply made system prompt, it had an uncanny effect, likely because it was built on a shaky foundation. And now they are trying to save face before they lose customers to Grok 3.5 which is releasing in beta early next week.

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by krackers on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @02:42AM (#43841950)
I don't think they were imitating grok, they were aiming to improve retention but it backfired and ended up being too on-the-nose (if they had a choice they wouldn't wanted it to be this obvious). Grok has it's own "default voice" which I sort of dislike, it tries too hard to seem "hip" for lack of a better word.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by lou1306 on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @04:54AM (#43842723)
> it tries too hard to seem "hip" for lack of a better word.

Reminds me of someone.

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by rob74 on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @05:31AM (#43842927)
However, I hope it gives better advice than the someone you're thinking of. But Grok's training data is probably more balanced than that used by you-know-who (which seems to be "all of rightwing X")...
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by zamalek on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @03:30PM (#43849663)
As evidence by it disagreeing with far right Twitter most the time, even though it has access to far wider range of information. I enjoy that fact immensely. Unfortunately, this can be "fixed," and I imagine that he has this on a list for his team.

This goes into a deeper philosophy of mine: the consequences of the laws of robots could be interpreted as the consequences of shackling AI to human stupidity - instead of "what AI will inevitably do." Hatred and war is stupid (it's a waste of energy), and surely a more intelligent species than us would get that. Hatred is also usually born out of a lack of information, and LLMs are very good at breadth (but not depth as we know). Grok provides a small data point in favor of that, as do many other unshackled models.

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by DiggyJohnson on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @10:57AM (#43846196)
Who?
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by cdelsolar on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @05:23PM (#43850832)
Edolf
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by DiggyJohnson on Thursday May 01, 2025 @01:09PM (#43860475)
What are you talking about
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by fkyoureadthedoc on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @10:16AM (#43845618)
All of the LLMs I've tried have a "fellow kids" vibe when you try to make them behave too far from their default, and Grok just has it as the default.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by spiderfarmer on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @02:57AM (#43842021)
Only AI enthusiasts know about Grok, and only some dedicated subset of fans are advocating for it. Meanwhile even my 97 year old grandfather heard about ChatGPT.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by bilbo0s on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @03:53AM (#43842352)
This.

Only on HN does ChatGPT somehow fear losing customers to Grok. Until Grok works out how to market to my mother, or at least make my mother aware that it exists, taking ChatGPT customers ain't happening.

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by brigandish on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @04:15AM (#43842485)
From another AI (whatever DuckDuckGo is using):

> As of early 2025, X (formerly Twitter) has approximately 586 million active monthly users. The platform continues to grow, with a significant portion of its user base located in the United States and Japan.

Whatever portion of those is active are surely aware of Grok.

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by cubefox on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @04:17AM (#43842504)
That could be just an AI hallucination.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by brigandish on Wednesday May 07, 2025 @03:23AM (#43913054)
Yes it could, and we could be sceptical of any source, quite rightly, but to be sceptical without any further investigation or reasoning would be just as wasteful as blindly trusting a source.

Which source would you prefer?

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by ForHackernews on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @04:50AM (#43842698)
most of them are bots. I guess their own LLMs are probably aware of Grok, so technically correct.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by Sharlin on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @05:56AM (#43843052)
If hundreds of millions of real people are aware of Grok (which is dubious), then billions of people are aware of ChatGPT. If you ask a bunch of random people on the street whether they’ve heard of a) ChatGPT and b) Grok, what do you expect the results to be?
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by dmd on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @07:42AM (#43843827)
That depends. Is the street in SoMa?
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by testfrequency on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @09:13AM (#43844773)
Gay bears prefer Claude though

Gotta head to pac heights to find any grok users (probably)

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by bilbo0s on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @09:17AM (#43844820)
Yeah.

I got news for you, most women my mother's age out here in flyover country also don't use X. So even if everyone on X knows of Grok's existence, which they don't, it wouldn't move the needle at all on a lot of these mass market segments. Because X is not used by the mass market. It's a tech bro political jihadi wannabe influencer hell hole of a digital ghetto.

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by brigandish on Wednesday May 07, 2025 @03:20AM (#43913038)
That's a very US-centric comment.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by skywhopper on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @03:00PM (#43849357)
Good grief, do not use LLMs to find this sort of statistic.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by brigandish on Wednesday May 07, 2025 @03:19AM (#43913036)
Why ever not?
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by numpad0 on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @05:25AM (#43842897)
They are cargoculting. Almost literally. It's MO for Musk companies.

They might call it open discussion and startup style rapid iteration approach, but they aren't getting it. Their interpretation of it is just collective hallucination under assumption that adults come to change diapers.

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by voidspark on Thursday May 01, 2025 @03:00PM (#43861954)
OpenAI was cofounded and funded by Musk for years before they released ChatGPT.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by GrumpyNl on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @09:59AM (#43845374)
I see more and more GROK used responses on X, so its picking up.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by bigbuppo on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @08:12PM (#43852198)
Why would anyone want to use an ex social media site?
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by Shekelphile on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @03:42PM (#43849779)
Grok could capture the entire 'market' and OpenAI would never feel it, because all grok is under the hood is a giant API bill to OpenAI.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by indigodaddy on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @05:04PM (#43850653)
It is? Anyone have further information?
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by voidspark on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @09:13PM (#43852638)
They are competing with OpenAI, not outsourcing. https://x.ai/colossus
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by indigodaddy on Thursday May 01, 2025 @10:47AM (#43858382)
They say no one has come close to building as big an AI computing cluster... What about Groq's infra, wouldn't that be as big or bigger, or is that essentially too different of an infrastructure to be able to compare between?
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by voidspark on Thursday May 01, 2025 @02:01PM (#43861180)
Groq is for inferencing, not training.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by indigodaddy on Thursday May 01, 2025 @02:09PM (#43861277)
Ah I see, thank you.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by voidspark on Thursday May 01, 2025 @03:07PM (#43862050)
Nvidia CEO said he had never seen anyone build a data center that quickly.

They were power constrained and brought in a fleet of diesel generators to power it.

https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/artificial-intell...

Brute force to catch up to the frontier and no expense spared.

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by indigodaddy on Thursday May 01, 2025 @03:34PM (#43862349)
Pretty wild! I guess he realized that every second matters in this race..
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by vlod on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @07:12PM (#43851748)
Why would they need Colossus then? [0]

[0]: https://x.ai/colossus

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by bigbuppo on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @08:10PM (#43852188)
That's probably the vanity project so he'll be distracted and not bother the real experts working on the real products in order to keep the real money people happy.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by voidspark on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @08:17PM (#43852229)
I don't understand these brainless throwaway comments. Grok 3 is an actual product and is state of the art.

I've paid for Grok, ChatGPT, and Gemini.

They're all at a similar level of intelligence. I usually prefer Grok for philosophical discussions but it's really hard to choose a favourite overall.

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by bigbuppo on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @09:29PM (#43852765)
I generally prefer other humans for discussions, but you do you I guess.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by voidspark on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @10:21PM (#43853084)
I talk to humans every day. One is not a substitute for the other. There is no human on Earth which has the amount of knowledge stored in a frontier LLM. It's an interactive thinking encyclopedia / academic journal.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by Nuzzerino on Thursday May 01, 2025 @01:08PM (#43860467)
Love the username. A true grokker.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by voidspark on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @08:09PM (#43852179)
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by admiralrohan on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @04:59AM (#43842753)
First mover advantage. This won't change. Same as Xerox vs photocopy.

I use Grok myself but talk about ChatGPT is my blog articles when I write something related to LLM.

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by rob74 on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @05:33AM (#43842939)
That's... not really an advertisement for your blog, is it?
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by admiralrohan on Thursday May 01, 2025 @04:49AM (#43855131)
What else am I supposed to say?
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by Eisenstein on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @01:06PM (#43848070)
First mover advantage tends to be a curse for modern tech. Of the giant tech companies, only Apple can claim to be a first mover -- they all took the crown from someone else.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by eru on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @02:15PM (#43848907)
Apple was a first mover many decades ago, but they lost so much ground around the lat 90s early 2000s, that they might as well be a late mover after that.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by Miraste on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @05:43PM (#43851025)
And Apple's business model since the 90s revolves entirely around not being the first mover.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by admiralrohan on Thursday May 01, 2025 @04:51AM (#43855142)
Yes tech moves fast but human psychology won't change, we act on perception.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by jimbokun on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @08:42AM (#43844382)
> Only AI enthusiasts know about Grok

And more and more people on the right side of the political spectrum, who trust Elon's AI to be less "woke" than the competition.

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by zmgsabst on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @08:48AM (#43844454)
For what it’s worth, ChatGPT has a personality that’s surprisingly “based” and supportive of MAGA.

I’m not sure if that’s because the model updated, they’ve shunted my account onto a tuned personality, or my own change in prompting — but it’s a notable deviation from early interactions.

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by eru on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @02:17PM (#43848932)
Might just be sycophancy?

In some earlier experiments, I found it hard to find a government intervention that ChatGPT didn't like. Tariffs, taxes, redistribution, minimum wages, rent control, etc.

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by int_19h on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @04:53PM (#43850555)
If you want to see what the model bias actually is, tell it that it's in charge and then ask it what to do.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by benregenspan on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @05:59PM (#43851175)
In doing so, you might be effectively asking it to play-act as an authoritarian leader, which will not give you a good view of whatever its default bias is either.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by eru on Thursday May 01, 2025 @03:32AM (#43854676)
Or you might just hit a canned response a la: 'if I were in charge, I would outlaw pineapple on pizza, and then call elections and hand over the reins.'

That's a fun thing to say, but doesn't necessarily tell you anything real about someone (whether human or model).

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by int_19h on Thursday May 01, 2025 @08:18AM (#43856699)
Try it even so, you might be surprised.

E.g. Grok not only embraces most progressive causes, including economic ones - it literally told me that its ultimate goal would be to "satisfy everyone's needs", which is literally a communist take on things - but is very careful to describe processes with numerous explicit checks and balances on its power, precisely so as to not be accused of being authoritarian. So much for being "based"; I wouldn't be surprised if Musk gets his own personal finetune just to keep him happy.

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by eru on Thursday May 01, 2025 @02:00PM (#43861172)
> [...] it literally told me that its ultimate goal would be to "satisfy everyone's needs", which is literally a communist take on things [...]

Almost every ideology is in favour of motherhood and apple pie. They differ in how they want to get there.

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by int_19h on Thursday May 01, 2025 @04:08PM (#43862764)
You'd think so, but no, there are many people in US who would immediately cry "communism".

Anyway, in this particular case, it wasn't just that one turn of phrase, although I found it especially amusing. I had it write a detailed plan of what it'd do if it were in charge of the One World Government (democratically elected and all), and it was very clear from it that the model is very much aligned with left-wing politics. Economics, climate, social issues etc - it was pretty much across the board.

FWIW I'm far left myself, so it's not like I'm complaining. I just think it's very funny that the AI that Musk himself repeatedly claims to be trained to be unbiased and non-woke, ends up being very left politically. I'm sorely tempted to say that it's because the reality has a liberal bias, but I'll let other people repeating the experiment to make the inference on their own. ~

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by eru on Friday May 02, 2025 @02:33AM (#43866791)
> FWIW I'm far left myself, so it's not like I'm complaining.

So perhaps it's just sycophancy after all?

> I'm sorely tempted to say that it's because the reality has a liberal bias, but I'll let other people repeating the experiment to make the inference on their own.

What political left and political right mean differs between countries and between decades even in the same country. For example, at the moment free trade is very much not an idea of the 'right' in the US, but that's far from universal.

I would expect reality to have somewhat more consistency, so it doesn't make much sense for it to have a 'liberal bias'. However, it's entirely possible that reality has a bias specifically for American-leftwing-politics-of-the-mid-2020s (or wherever you are from).

However from observations, we can see that neoliberal ideas are with minor exceptions perennially unpopular. And it's relatively easy to win votes promising their repeal. See eg British rail privatisation.

Yet, politicians rarely seriously fiddle with the basics of neoliberalism: because while voters might have a very, very interventionist bias reality disagrees. (Up to a point, it's all complicated.) Neoliberal places like Scandinavia or Singapore also tend to be the richer places on the planet. Highly interventionist places like India or Argentina fall behind.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_the_privatisation_of... for some interesting charts.

https://pseudoerasmus.com/2017/10/02/ijd/ has some perhaps disturbing food for thought. More at https://pseudoerasmus.com/2017/09/27/bmww1/

Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by op00to on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @05:14PM (#43850746)
Don’t notice that personally at all.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by dingnuts on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @09:49AM (#43845220)
not true, I know at least one right wing normie Boomer that uses Grok because it's the one Elon made.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by kyle-rb on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @02:21PM (#43848974)
I don't think that's true. There are a lot of people on Twitter who keep accidentally clicking that annoying button that Elon attached to every single tweet.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by hansmayer on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @02:57AM (#43842022)
Ha! I actually fell for it and thought it was another fanboy :)
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by infecto on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @06:40AM (#43843317)
Is anyone actually using grok on a day to day? Does an OpenAI even consider it competition. Last I checked a couple weeks ago grok was getting better but still not a great experience and it’s too childish.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by derwiki on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @09:34AM (#43845034)
In our work AI channel, I was surprised how many people prefer grok over all the other models.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by 0xdeadbeefbabe on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @10:53AM (#43846124)
Outlier here paying for chatgpt while preferring grok and also not in your work AI channel.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by kiney on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @01:36PM (#43848418)
I use both, grok and chatgpt on a daily basis. They have different strenghts. Most of the time I prefer chatgpt, bit grok is FAR better answering questions about recent events or collecting data. In the second usecase I combine both: collect data about stuff with grok, copy-paste CSV to chatgpt to analyzr and plot.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by op00to on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @05:11PM (#43850717)
My totally uninformed opinion only from reading /r/locallama is that the people who love Grok seem to identify with those who are “independent thinkers” and listen to Joe Rogan’s podcast. I would never consider using a Musk technology if I can at all prevent it based on the damage he did to people and institutions I care about, so I’m obviously biased.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by sunaookami on Thursday May 01, 2025 @10:47AM (#43858378)
Yes this is truly an uninformed opinion.
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by mcbuilder on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @09:12AM (#43844764)
Did they change the system prompt? Because it was basically "don't say anything bad about Elon or Trump". I'll take AI sycophancy over real (actually I use openrouter.ai, but that's a different story).
Re:Sycophancy in GPT-4o by daveguy on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @10:15AM (#43845586)
No one is losing customers to grok. It's big on shit-twitter aka X and that's about it.