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Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by tgsovlerkhgsel on Sunday April 20, 2025 @04:35AM (#43742427)
If the kid isn't enjoying the piano lessons, will forcing them to do it for 20 minutes every day really be beneficial? Sure, they will now be able to do something - something that they absolutely hate... (also, why is it always piano that parents try to force on children?)
Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by blitzar on Sunday April 20, 2025 @04:54AM (#43742520)
> they will now be able to do something - something that they absolutely hate

A valuable life skill if you want to ever have a job or get paid.

Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by Aeolun on Sunday April 20, 2025 @05:22AM (#43742638)
That’s such a depressing way to see things. I’m sure most people do something they don’t utterly despise, is only because they select for their local optimum.
Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by blitzar on Sunday April 20, 2025 @05:32AM (#43742674)
> I’m sure most people

If you live in the bubble where you experience this, congratulation you live a wonderfully privileged life, never interact with anyone or are totally oblivious to the experiences of all the people you interact with on a daily basis.

Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by danenania on Sunday April 20, 2025 @08:02AM (#43743253)
So your parenting advice is to teach your kids to do things they hate while suppressing their feelings so they can be like the average unhappy person?
Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by zdragnar on Sunday April 20, 2025 @12:45PM (#43744873)
I hate doing laundry and cleaning dishes. I still do it, though.

There are things in life that you won't enjoy but you need to do. Learning to do them anyway is in fact a life skill.

I've seen people follow their dreams into careers they chose because they wanted them, despite those careers not being paid well. They're all at least as miserable as the average person, because what they enjoyed is now work, and they don't have money for anything they now enjoy.

"Do whatever makes you happy" is a life plan for the financially independent. Most people simply don't have that luxury.

Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by bogdanoff_2 on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @02:20PM (#43775076)
> I hate doing laundry and cleaning dishes. I still do it, though.

Sure, I see your point. I guess what it comes down to is: what percentage of your life do you spend doing that?

If you don't like doing laundry, then don't start a laundry service business.

Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by blitzar on Sunday April 20, 2025 @01:11PM (#43745029)
Parenting, having and raising children, including but not limited to the act of giving birth is the ultimate example. There are many "piano lessons" along that journey.

Sometimes you have to eat a shit sandwich.

Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by danenania on Sunday April 20, 2025 @01:59PM (#43745322)
Sure, but you don’t have to accept that they’re the only thing on the menu.
Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by blitzar on Sunday April 20, 2025 @06:35PM (#43747012)
Sure, you can take off at 2am and leave a screaming 2 month old child in a room and never come back, because you have been trying for hours to stop it from crying and it is just too fucking hard - just like you can walk out of your piano lesson and never go back.

Or you can reach for the sandwich.

Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by Tronno on Monday April 21, 2025 @01:39AM (#43748768)
If piano lessons is what trained you not to abandon a crying baby, I'm not sure to say.
Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by tasuki on Sunday April 20, 2025 @07:30AM (#43743121)
You're of course right, it's a privilege.

But also, many people choose to do something they hate so they earn more money. They could be just as privileged and choose not to, just so they can compete with the Joneses and consume more...

Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by harvey9 on Sunday April 20, 2025 @06:15AM (#43742826)
Don't know about 'most' but I think many do exactly that in order to pay the bills.
Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by barry-cotter on Sunday April 20, 2025 @08:58AM (#43743486)
That sucks man. I hope things get better for you.
Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by blitzar on Sunday April 20, 2025 @01:16PM (#43745058)
The sweet is never as sweet without the sour.
Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by BeFlatXIII on Sunday April 20, 2025 @10:58AM (#43744196)
Similarly, it teaches the value of putting forth the minimum effort to appear to be doing the work. Putting forth more effort rewards one with more work.
Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by erxam on Sunday April 20, 2025 @05:16PM (#43746588)
I agree wholeheartedly.

Honestly, I wish I had been taught that lesson early, so as to internalize it profoundly.

Even with a lot of discipline and self-control, going through each and every day without mind-altering substances at hand is pretty dang difficult.

Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by anon-3988 on Sunday April 20, 2025 @10:02PM (#43747941)
Teaching them piano is probably the worse thing you can do if you want them to get paid lol. You should be teaching them plumbing instead.
Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by blitzar on Monday April 21, 2025 @04:27AM (#43749549)
You don't want to put them off plumbing for life!
Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by martindbp on Tuesday April 22, 2025 @03:42AM (#43759935)
They already learn this by being in school, no need for more of such "learning opportunities" in their free time.
Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by tetris11 on Sunday April 20, 2025 @06:33AM (#43742902)
Yep, 6 years of being forced to play the violin.

Sure, once I was playing it, I was fine, but I cannot explain to you the sheer dread I felt opening up the case.

Have not played in decades, despite all those lessons and concerts and orchestra sessions.

Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by ctxc on Sunday April 20, 2025 @08:23AM (#43743345)
I felt the same. I didn't touch it for ~9 years.

But I'm glad for it, since it lets me jam or enjoy myself without having to put the practice in now from scratch. I do it for fun.

Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by tetris11 on Sunday April 20, 2025 @09:48AM (#43743746)
I live in the hope that one day I will pick it up and feel nothing but contentment of being in the moment, but I'm just not ready for that yet.

Even the smell of tree resin sometimes makes my stomach tighten with anxiety.

Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by zdragnar on Sunday April 20, 2025 @12:46PM (#43744887)
Executive function / demand avoidance. Not to the point of being pathological, but it is a learned emotional behavioral complex.
Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by milesrout on Sunday April 20, 2025 @04:42AM (#43742470)
They don't hate it. They dislike being bad at it, they dislike working hard at things, and they like video games and scrolling on their phones.

And yes practicing will result in them getting better.

Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by ilt on Sunday April 20, 2025 @04:48AM (#43742487)
I think this is the crux. Nobody likes to fail, kids included. And their attention span is wonky too so they may not see much value in learning from failure/s since there are so many other attractive things asking for their attention and they would rather do them.
Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by cpursley on Sunday April 20, 2025 @06:56AM (#43742991)
Insane you’re getting downvoted, this 100% and then some. There’s a clear difference in outcomes between kids taught self-discipline and those who are raised standard Anglo-American ADHD style once they become adults.
Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by mrob on Sunday April 20, 2025 @11:52AM (#43744566)
The primary design goal for most traditional instruments was making them as loud as possible.

I was briefly made to play violin as a child, and I definitely hated it (fortunately my parents recognized this and didn't push too hard). The reason is in retrospect obvious: violins are loud and piercing and played close to the ear. Nobody considered hearing protection back then. I learned recorder as an adult and the loud notes can exceed 100dB(A) measured at the ear (both alto and soprano recorders, and recorders have very limited dynamics). Violins seem to be at least as loud. I would hate to play without hearing protection no matter how skilled I become.

Even in instruments where you can more easily play softly like a piano, the design for loudness can cause suffering. Pianos are much bigger than they need to be now that we have amplification, with correspondingly wide and finger-straining keys. Steel string guitars are louder than nylon but hurt more to play (and even nylon can hurt depending on your individual hand size and shape). I expect there are many children suffering hand/finger pain from being forced to play various instruments and genuinely hating it regardless of their skill level.

When a child hates something, there's often a good reason for it that isn't obvious and that they don't have the communication skills to explain.

Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by milesrout on Sunday April 20, 2025 @06:27PM (#43746976)
You have the worst case of Dunning-Kruger syndrome I have ever come across.

There are ages below which you are too young to play full-sized pianos, or play every interval an adult can play. That doesn't stop you playing it at all. What's more, your hands and fingers stretch. It isn't painful to play the piano.

The stuff about loudness is just rubbish. There is absolutely no need for hearing protection while playing the recorder (a very quiet instrument), the violin or the piano solo. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by mrob on Sunday April 20, 2025 @08:36PM (#43747636)
I never said it was painful for everybody to play instruments. I'm saying this is an underappreciated reason for children to hate playing. Maybe you are lucky enough that it doesn't affect you.

And I personally measured my recorders with an SPL meter and found them to reach over 100dB(A) at the ear (played indoors in an ordinary room with furniture but without acoustic treatment). The meter used does not have a traceable calibration but in all respects behaves as I would expect a correctly calibrated meter to behave. I have no reason to believe it is miscalibrated. Recorders are only quiet in the bass. The high notes require much higher air pressure and can be very loud. Perhaps you are fooled by the lack of distortion. I played without hearing protection at first, but I was disturbed by the prolonged discomfort this caused in my ears. I then recorded my playing and reproduced it with loudspeakers. I was shocked at how loud I had to turn the speakers up to reach a realistic level. I think it's easier to judge SPL from loudspeakers because they do have distortion which serves as a perceptual cue. Pure sounds can reach dangerous levels without sounding obviously loud. I also think the fact that I was playing the instrument myself and not just listening contributed to my misjudgement.

Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by Izkata on Sunday April 20, 2025 @09:50PM (#43747893)
> I'm saying this is an underappreciated reason for children to hate playing.

I once shocked my mom by clearly hearing what she whispered from across a quiet room. And not like a room in a home, this room was about the width of a house. I think people massively underestimate how sensitive hearing can be for some people.

Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by ctxc on Sunday April 20, 2025 @08:21AM (#43743333)
"something they absolutely hate" is learning to read sheet music, training for skill, practicing for muscle memory.

The fruits are reaped when they (me!) get older. Like I mentioned in another comment, I can play along to a song I like, play a song that is a certain memory, jam with friends at a whim.

Those are not things I necessarily wanted to do when I was a kid. But the "forced" practice was required as a foundation to do what I want to today.

Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by djeastm on Sunday April 20, 2025 @12:36PM (#43744822)
> I can play along to a song I like, play a song that is a certain memory, jam with friends at a whim

You can do any of those things without learning to read music. Ask me how I know

Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by khazhoux on Monday April 21, 2025 @01:07AM (#43748647)
Let me guess, you self taught on some instrument?
Re:How to Force Your Kids to Do Math? by alganet on Monday April 21, 2025 @01:22AM (#43748702)
That seems like a simplistic conclusion.

He could have learned to play from a teacher that doesn't teach reading music, for example.