Negotiated peace was what Russia and Ukraine had before, and Russia unilaterally broke it.

That is why the focus now is on security guarantees, which the U.S. is refusing so far. Without those, anything negotiated is a gift to Russia, specifically the gift of time to regroup and re-arm for another attack later on.

Lasting peace is not created by concessions, it is created when instigators believe they have more to lose than to gain from further violence.

US security guarantees are probably not worth the paper they are written on.

It is an absurd position that the US should be on the hook to indefinitely pay for any war anywhere in the world forever, and if they attempt to negotiate peace while pulling out of that war that they are siding with the opposition.

The problem is not that the U.S. is trying to negotiate for peace, the problem is that the administration is doing a hilariously bad job of it by giving up all leverage right off the bat.

We don't have any leverage against Russia. America has no appetite to fight them directly. If Ukraine were more effective at hurting Russia where it counts, then we might have leverage but the last few years have shown that they are not capable of that.

Not sure how entertaining a petulant State Department puppet with a maxxed out credit card counts as leverage? US orchestrated Euromaidan in order to eliminate Russia from the chess board and balkanize the region. That's our negotiating position in the West.

US should be on the hook to indefinitely pay for a particular war that resulted out of a diplomatic agreement (Budapest memorandum) that effectively prevented Ukraine from defending itself by making it surrender its nukes in exchange for nebulous security guarantees that weren't honored by US.

I think it's a fine rule of thumb but what does Putin have to gain from negotiating with Zelenskyy who he is seen as a Western puppet orchestrated as legacy of US intel agency involvement? (Which we admitted is true…)

People in this thread are completely incapable of seeing any legitimacy in any Russian concerns about Ukraine.

Whether someone's concerns are legitimate is in the eye of the beholder, but actions can be directly observed. Unilateral violent invasion must not become a legitimate tactic again. It was the norm for centuries, and excluding it resulted in the fastest rise in global living standards in history--including in the U.S. and Russia.

Do you recommend violent 2014 coups instead? That is our position on Ukraine, officially.

The US was literally created the same way.

I thought Russia did a unique “full scale” unprovoked invasion? You can’t have it both ways and pearl clutch about sovereignty.

World affairs is only ever literally just gentlemens’ agreements and always has been.

Yes, actually, that’s how a lot of modern states got founded.

legitimate is in the eye of the beholder is right!

The coup happened before 2014, when Yanukovich took over the supreme court and reverted the country's constitution.

I'm just raising concerns! With a howitser.

So NATO is literally trying to kill Putin, what formal legal avenue would you like Russia to take?

Decades of NATO enlargement. What do you expect? Poke bear enough and it will bite you! But don’t be shocked…

Putin could have kicked back and enjoyed his dacha like other less powerful dictators do all over the world, but no, he had to write a "scientific" treatise about Ruski Mir and how the Ukraine isn't actually a thing. He wants a legacy.

Well, he got it and whatever happens in the war, Russia is cooked. It's never coming back from this.

It will either fracture from the war going badly, or it will become a vassal state of China, and ironically, perhaps the US, the way things are going with the White House these days.

The other powerful “dictators” get dragged through the streets or hanged for daring to enjoy an economic system outside the US dollar. Putin knows this and so should you.

It's very easy. To not get dragged in the streets as a dictator, you need a) nukes and b) chill in your dacha.

Putins actions now actually exposed himself to the dragged-in-the-streets treatment, by his own people. But it's all worth it, because of Ruski Mir.

> That is why the focus now is on security guarantees, which the U.S. is refusing so far.

This seems obvious to me, but is apparently not obvious to many here.... America (no country really) can guarantee Ukrainian security without risking WWIII, and frankly there's no reason to. At the end of the day, from a non-Ukrainian standpoint, it doesn't really matter who administers the land that today is Ukraine.

The US has literally sided with Russia in the UN.

so did Israel.

When the “negotiated peace” is “Russia gets everything they want, you give us every dime and your treasury, and we don’t promise to actually help you when Russia attacks again after we let them re-arm for as long as they like”…. That isn’t a peace deal, it’s virtually unconditional surrender.

Under what circumtances is the US allowed to pull out of a war they didn't start, which does not directly involve any US interests, in which we have already invested $110bn? Never? Not until we spend another $500bn we don't have?

The USA certainly is involved, they signed the Budapest Memorandum.

No one is arguing that the US isn't allowed to pull out.

But "negotiating" a treaty with the other side and then claiming that that treaty is the final word on the war is atrocious. That's what's crazy. Not ending US involvement, but trying to say that Ukraine must stop fighting.

Now, I also think the US should keep supporting Ukraine, but that's a totally different topic.

This isn’t pulling out. It’s embarassing an ally on the world stage while acting like the spoiled toddler and Putin asset that he is. This is not normal. This isn’t even bad. This is outside politics and just flat out treasonous.

To be brutally frank, then you shouldn't have stopped Europe and the EU from building an independent military for the last few decades.

Like, it's totally fine that the US wants to return to isolation, but don't expect to keep all the benefits of the post 45 world order if you do so.

If I were a US citizen I'd probably be more concerned about the upcoming oil tariffs from Canada, but whatevs.

The US has sided with Russia against European and Western civilisation. Don’t understate what we are witnessing. The betrayal of civilisation is almost complete.

I think it's the characterization that Ukraine started the war that makes people feel a sentiment that is aligned with Russia.

> There's a difference between "siding with Russia" and siding with negotiated peace.

There is absolutely no difference, when the US is negotiating that peace only with Russia, without Ukraine in the room.

With Trump administration officials not able to name a single compromise they’ve asked from Russia.

If the “negotiated peace” is “I asked the country that invaded you what they want, and you must do everything they asked for”, that’s not negotiation.

I will never understand how people can be so quick to abandon independence nations, and are so willing to bow to dictators. You would cheer Chamberlain submitting to Hitler as he launches an invasion as a momentous day for peace. You would be wrong then, and you are wrong now.

"stop advancing" is the compromise asked from Russia

They already stopped advancing 6 months ago.

Exactly... so what's the purpose of continuing the fight and killing Russian and Ukrainian men for no reason? This forum used to be a strong supporter of men's rights, but apparently these disappear once we dehumanize them via international relations. There's literally no reason for any individual Russian or Ukrainian man to die right now, since we all agree that no territory is being gained or lost.

There are 2 important reasons.

The reason for Ukrainian men to die, is to protect their families from being tortured by Russians when the Russians take another city.

The reason for Russian men to die, is to not be murdered by their own officer.

Is that why Ukrainian men are being dragged kicking and screaming off the streets?

OP was giving a good reason for Ukrainians to fight. Whether Ukrainians are actually listening to those reasons is another matter.

Russian and Ukrainian men would stop dying if Russia withdrew its military from Ukraine.

Yes, there's a difference, and what Trump is doing is clearly siding with Russia. His "negotiated peace" is neither negotiated nor peace. It's a surrender.

You don't have to support Ukraine indefinitely; only until Russia stops. Your options are to support Ukraine until Russia stops, or to surrender until Russia stops.

Are you under the impression that at some point Russia will simply say “well it was worth a try”, and retreat home?

Not impossible since something similar has already happened in Vietnam (at least once) and in Afghanistan (at least twice)

No. Not at all. There will come a point when Russia will stop the war because either Russia is completely exhausted and on the verge of collapse, or Putin is dead or removed from power. And chances are those two will go together.

If Putin is removed from power, it won't be with somebody more friendly to the west.

Depends on who does the removing. It could go a lot of different ways, but even if it's someone from his own government who is hostile to the west, they're still likely to use it as an excuse to end the war.

And you don't think Russia will escalate to tactical nukes in Ukraine before that point?

No

Why not?

It's mind blowing to me to see the left being the war mongers now. That used to be the mantle of the right, but hey, here we are.

The arguments I see for the US staying involved are the same hand wavy ones used in Vietnam - "better to fight them over in Asia then in America". It was a weak argument then, and it's a weak argument now.

The people that helped fan the flames of this war don't give one crap about Ukraine. What they care about is the neocon policy of "do anything to keep America's rival weak". So funding a war that Ukraine pays the price for works just fine.

The truth is that the war is going to end eventually and it's not going to be Russia capitulating. So rather than a hundred thousand more dead might as well find a solution.

Seems like a pretty rationale decision to me.

I do not think you can compare this conflict with Vietnam. US army went into Vietnam, while Ukraine is fighting a US rival with their own military, but they do use US provided equipment.

General public in Europe didn't see US as actively involved, or at least didn't see it until the new administration said it would end the conflict. This is when Trump administration started getting into "talks with Russia" and offering Ukraine "mineral deals". While US might have tried to do that even before, it was not discussed openly by presidents.

This war is going to flame out eventually. Lessons learned in this one will be used for the next one, which is going to hurt even more.

I disagree with this post, but it’s very disheartening to see that comments that are polite and well-made are being downvoted as if they are trolls.