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Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by decimalenough on Monday February 17, 2025 @07:01PM (#43084455)
This Wiki article is badly named, but it's still the best ELI5 overview I've seen:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_David_Maland

Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by idlewords on Monday February 17, 2025 @07:11PM (#43084534)
Have either of you ever met a five year old?
Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by spondylosaurus on Monday February 17, 2025 @07:34PM (#43084692)
I tried to write a genuine ELI5 explanation but I'm not sure it's possible unless you can assume a five-year-old knows what "philosophy" means, lol.

You could say "a group of people think that being smart gives them magic powers, and that most people are evil zombies, but they think everyone in their own special group is good and can do whatever they want" but you lose a lot of nuance.

Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by chatmasta on Tuesday February 18, 2025 @07:59AM (#43088978)
You lose a lot of nuance but that’s actually a pretty good explanation because it reveals the obvious parallels to nearly every mainstream religion throughout history.
Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by zozbot234 on Monday February 17, 2025 @07:25PM (#43084620)
Interesting challenge: put all of this crazy information into a LLM prompt and ask it to explain everything as if to a real five year old. Maybe the newer "Deep research" models could do it. (See also https://xkcd.com/547/ of course.)
Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by computerthings on Monday February 17, 2025 @07:42PM (#43084750)
> Alright! Imagine there’s a group of people who really like playing a fun video game. They play it a lot, and they have a special leader who shows them how to play really well. This leader is called Zizaran, and he's super good at the game!

> The "Zizaran cult" is just a funny name for the group of people who follow Zizaran and learn from him. They all work together to get better at the game, and they have fun chatting and helping each other out. It’s like a big team where everyone shares tips and tricks!

> But don’t worry—it’s not a spooky cult. It’s just a group of gamers who like playing the same game and having fun together.

Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by nl on Monday February 17, 2025 @11:00PM (#43085939)
This works of course. I asked chat GPT to "ELI5 this:" and pasted the text from https://maxread.substack.com/p/the-zizians-and-the-rationali...

This is what it created:

A journalist wrote a long article about a weird, extreme group called the “Zizians.” They’re a mix of radical thinkers from the Rationalist movement—a community of people obsessed with using logic to solve big problems, like AI safety or moral philosophy. The Zizians, led by a person named Ziz, took these ideas to an extreme, combining them with unusual beliefs about morality, consciousness, and even Star Wars-like "Sith" philosophy.

This group has been connected to multiple violent incidents, including murders and standoffs with police. Some of its members have been arrested, gone into hiding, or mysteriously died. The author explains that Rationalist groups, while not inherently violent, often attract highly analytical but socially disconnected people, making them vulnerable to cult-like thinking.

The article also touches on how similar communities—like Effective Altruists and AI researchers—can sometimes create intense, insular environments that lead to extreme behavior. Basically, the Zizians are an example of how even smart, logical people can end up in very bizarre and dangerous places when they take ideas too far.

Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by gosub100 on Monday February 17, 2025 @09:07PM (#43085352)
Ah, the "no true 5-year-old" argument...
Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by dahdum on Monday February 17, 2025 @09:59PM (#43085643)
> Have either of you ever met a five year old?

I expect you are simply trolling, but for those that are not aware ELI5 has been defined in popular culture for well over a decade.

https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/

Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by lupusreal on Monday February 17, 2025 @07:45PM (#43084782)
> following a traffic stop, United States Border Patrol agent David Maland was killed in a shootout with Teresa Youngblut, who was wounded, and German national Ophelia Bauckholt, who also died in the shootout. The pair were traveling south on Interstate 91 in Coventry, Vermont, when they were pulled over as part of a traffic stop.[1] The two were put under "periodic surveillance" nearly one week before the shooting after they were reported to be armed and wearing all-black tactical clothing when checking in to their hotel.

So these guys were being surveilled for being armed and decked out in tactical gear, so the authorities send in a lone traffic cop to pull them over? And predictably, the cop is killed.

This isn't the first time I've heard of this kind of thing happening. That agent was basically set up to die, sacrificed like a pawn by his superiors playing a sick game of chess. The same thing happened to Darian Jarott, who was directed by his boss to arrest an armed and dangerous meth smuggler without being briefed of the danger, despite the fact that the danger was clearly understood by his superiors (a tactical team with medics were stationed nearby, but Jarott was sent in alone without knowledge of this.) The meth smuggler stepped out of his truck with an AR-15, taking Jarott completely by surprise, and murdered him. The meth smuggler was then chased down and killed by the other officers and agents.

Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by aerostable_slug on Monday February 17, 2025 @08:12PM (#43084996)
For what purpose?

Do you think that if the meth smuggler had been met by two or more officers he would have acted differently?

Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by lupusreal on Monday February 17, 2025 @08:22PM (#43085075)
They had a whole tactical team available but sent in one guy, unbriefed, to make a traffic stop. For what purpose, if not to draw out a violent reaction so the rest of them could jump right to the part where they get to chase a cop killer rather than a mere smuggler? They cynically engineered a scenario where they got to feel heroic with minimal personal risk, by first sending one of their own to his death.

They didn't even tell the guy to expect a violent reaction. Of course they didn't, because if they had he would have rightly refused.

Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by nkurz on Monday February 17, 2025 @09:05PM (#43085334)
I appreciate the info, hadn't heard about the Jarott case, and I hadn't considered this possible angle. That said, I don't think Maland was alone when he was shot. Details haven't been released, but the initial reporting was clear that multiple officers were involved.

Here for example is the AP: "Youngblut got out and opened fire on Maland and other officers without warning, the FBI said. Bauckholt tried to draw a gun but was shot, according to the affidavit. At least one border agent fired on Youngblut and Bauckholt, but authorities haven’t specified whose bullets hit whom."

https://apnews.com/article/vermont-border-patrol-shooting-wh...

Have you seen any later reporting that contradicts this?

Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by MichaelZuo on Monday February 17, 2025 @08:49PM (#43085256)
How is this more plausible then any of the alternative explanations?

e.g. the decision makers could be incompetent, they might not care that much, they had some other contradicting information not publicly revealed, etc…

Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by ashoeafoot on Tuesday February 18, 2025 @01:35AM (#43086701)
They? There is no they. No plan. No conspiracy . Just a guy who gets up in the morning to write speeding tickets to fill a counties chest, while also filter feeding for outstanding warrants running into two armed psychos.The observation team (aka sigint fat dude) has zero connection to the traffic cop.
Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by lupusreal on Tuesday February 18, 2025 @06:17AM (#43088301)
At least in the case of Darian Jarott, he absolutely was directed by his boss to pull over the smuggler. "A State Police supervisor had asked Jarrott to pull over Cueva-Felix at the behest of federal agents" https://apnews.com/article/officer-killed-new-mexico-highway...

In the case of David Maland, the chance of it being a completely normal "traffic stop" by a federal border patrol agent (who's job is not to fill the counties chest by writing tickets, as you incorrectly state), completely unrelated to these people being under surveillance at the time for being armed and in tactical gear, is dubious to put it mildly.

Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by gruez on Monday February 17, 2025 @09:04PM (#43085329)
>So these guys were being surveilled for being armed and decked out in tactical gear, so the authorities send in a lone traffic cop to pull them over? And predictably, the cop is killed.

Was there any indication the police was "sent" to pull them over, rather than some sort of routine traffic stop? The article mentions the DHS surveillance was only "periodic", which implied they weren't really keeping tabs on them 24/7.

Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by sva_ on Monday February 17, 2025 @09:08PM (#43085357)
> so the authorities send in a lone traffic cop to pull them over?

It was more than one agent who pulled them over, and it isn't clear they were pulled over as a result of being put under surveillance.

Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by nl on Monday February 17, 2025 @11:02PM (#43085951)
The stop was performed by someone who wasn't associated with the ongoing surveillance and from a different agency.

It's a lot more likely that he just didn't know rather than some conspiracy for unknown purposes.

Re:Police arrest apparent leader of cultlike 'Zizian' group ... by beefnugs on Tuesday February 18, 2025 @12:16AM (#43086303)
There is dashcam of this available, so disturbing, even more so when you find out it was completely avoidable