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Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by thinkingtoilet on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @03:49PM (#42703645)
It's not even brain drain, America's dominance came from the fact that for nearly a century the brightest people in the world were willing to give up everything to come here. That is no longer the case. Today's Einstein probably isn't going to immigrate here.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by drivebyhooting on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @04:00PM (#42703777)
For nearly a century Europe incinerated itself twice over.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by PittleyDunkin on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @04:06PM (#42703852)
> That is no longer the case.

For all I shit relentlessly on this country and its culture, it's still an extremely attractive place to live if you're well-situated to make money. (Most people are not—hence my contempt for how the society functions. This presumably DOES apply to an "Einstein", if indeed this Einstein wants money.) China still has a way to go in catering to and granting citizenship (or some amenable equivalent) to foreigners.

Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by cyberax on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @05:05PM (#42704568)
Going through the _legal_ immigration in the US is hell. Even if you're immigrating through a "talent" visa. Never mind regular work visa/GC.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by PittleyDunkin on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @05:31PM (#42704862)
Well, what's the alternative? Live in some poor country with a happy and contented existence? Fuck no, I want money: happiness is for suckers
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by johnnyanmac on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @06:43PM (#42705512)
You have the metaphor backwards. Where do you go if you're a talented American and your own country continually does not want to pay for your talent? It's the brain drain out of the US to worry about, not the influx of immigration.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by PittleyDunkin on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @08:37AM (#42710577)
> Where do you go if you're a talented American and your own country continually does not want to pay for your talent?

China is the only country that pays even remotely competitively. Yes, even including all the nice benefits of living in a european welfare state, yes including the other anglo colonies.

Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by johnnyanmac on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @02:31PM (#42715809)
Makes sense, it's just basic economy to pay for spent and get it. Something the US is continually giving up.

Still, their culture basically does make it so certain types of people simply can't exist there. And I hear there's a healthy dose of racism as well. Nothing unique to China, sadly.

Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by int_19h on Thursday January 16, 2025 @01:26PM (#42728937)
The alternative is to go to another first-world country that makes it easier. E.g. Canada or Australia.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by johnnyanmac on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @06:41PM (#42705507)
>if you're well-situated to make money

so basically, like everything else, you make a lot of money but it isn't a great place to live unless you make ALL the money.

Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by Gomer1800 on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @08:37PM (#42706317)
You make a good point about China. It’s still an ethnostate, and I don’t see how it can reconcile such a strong ethnic nationalist identity with its own demographic crisis and competition for labor from abroad.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by adamc on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @04:26PM (#42704113)
Einstein didn't emigrate to get rich, he emigrated because the Nazi's took over Germany. Germany had the best universities in the world before they took the path of self-destruction. So that was a second, separate event that helped America.

America stills gets a lot of immigrants.

Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by linkjuice4all on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @06:08PM (#42705181)
Well, hopefully nothing like that happens in the US - that is to say an ideologue that ruins a country by ostracizing and then removing skilled immigrants or deters them from coming in the first place. Perhaps we can examine some recent large scale survey data to determine if the US populace gives a shit.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by junon on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @04:38PM (#42704242)
Pretty sure the use of "Einstein" here is symbolic, not literal.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by spacemadness on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @05:34PM (#42704886)
So use a different example? Einstein isn’t interchangeable, lol.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by brickfaced on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @04:32PM (#42704191)
The US didn't win World War 2, break the sound barrier, or put a man on the Moon only or primarily due to immigrant workers. We scoured the country's public school system for the sharpest young minds, sent them to institutions of higher learning with rigorous curricula, and found them positions in industry, government, or the military which made good use of their talent. Fetishizing the "nation of immigrants" narrative at the expensive of the native-born Americans who actually built most of this country's prosperity is, at best, ahistorical.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by tcmart14 on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @05:07PM (#42704582)
We literally put a man on the moon because we acquired Werner Von Braun and used his plans... I mean, we probably would have eventually done it, but the timeline likely would have been different and the soviets might have beaten us to the moon, but the time line we are in, we had a space program as successful as it was because we acquired German scientists who were already thinking about these problems a even a decade or so before we started to invest into it.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by throwaway48476 on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @05:19PM (#42704728)
That team was one of three that was developing rockets. The others were air force and navy.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by brickfaced on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @11:28PM (#42707308)
1,200 men of the same ethnic and religious background of the median American, brought over in a one-time arrangement in the wake of the most destructive war ever fought, versus 100,000 Indian H1B visas granted annually. That's just India, not counting other countries or visa types. Okay. Sure. Totally the same. We couldn't have made it back to the Moon without a million indentured IT workers.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by tcmart14 on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @12:48AM (#42707737)
I really have no clue what you're trying to say. You presented as a bad historical example for your argument, landing on the moon. I showed how that was a flawed example and now you're talking about a people from India in IT and the Artemis program and an accomplishment of it that hasn't even happened yet. Looks like your trying to pick an argument of H1B visas with my comment that had no mention of it.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by wbl on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @04:38PM (#42704254)
Our German scientists were better than their German scientists. We had no real science PhD programs until the 1920's. We had no scouting for young minds until the 1950's.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by selimthegrim on Thursday January 16, 2025 @07:07AM (#42724220)
Our Jews from Odessa were better than theirs too.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by officeplant on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @04:54PM (#42704443)
>Fetishizing the "nation of immigrants" narrative at the expensive of the native-born Americans who actually built most of this country's prosperity is, at best, ahistorical.

Except many of us can trace our family lines to immigration. On one side I have to go back to the early 1800's to see when they immigrated, but this is literally a country of immigrants. (other half of the family is late 1800s/early 1900s immigration)

Even today I would assume the average American doesn't have to trace back more than 100-150 years to see when part of their family moved here.

>We scoured the country's public school system for the sharpest young minds, sent them to institutions of higher learning with rigorous curricula, and found them positions in industry, government, or the military which made good use of their talent.

Don't even get us started on ahistorical nonsense when you just want to make things up. Not when talented folks[0] had to work through system that didn't want them so they could eventually make all the difference.

[0]https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/hidden-no-more-...

Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by Gomer1800 on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @08:45PM (#42706371)
I hear you, I took umbrage with that comment as well. But I think it’s fair to consider whether we are doing enough for Americans just as we are welcoming newcomers to settle here at the same time? My experience as a native born Californian, raised by a single immigrant mother living in urban poverty is no, we do not. Granted I escaped poverty by self-funding my engineering education (Federal Loans and working full time) but it took the better part of my 20s to do so, at great personal cost and risk. In many ways that experience taught me just how unfairly stacked the odds are against the working poor, let alone their children.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by vaidhy on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @09:57PM (#42706803)
I am really curious how welcoming do you think US is to new comers.. Most of the early immigrants in 1800s and early 1900s were blue collar workers (exactly like the people coming from the south of the border). Do you think there is any part of the system that is welcoming to them?

The brain-drain from the rest of the world to US started only after WW2 when US became the only industrialized country with a viable student -> employee -> citizen path and even that only works for a very small set of people.

I would love to hear about programs where the newcomers are treated better than you as a native citizen when both of you are equally qualified.

Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by mcphage on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @08:13PM (#42706170)
> Fetishizing the "nation of immigrants" narrative at the expensive of the native-born Americans who actually built most of this country's prosperity is, at best, ahistorical.

Most of those native-born Americans were the children or grandchildren of immigrants.

Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by brickfaced on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @11:39PM (#42707376)
What do you think a nation is? Is it a sports team or economic zone that hands out name tags to whoever steps off the boat with the right attitude? Or is it a specific group of people in a specific place with a shared language, lineage, culture, history, faith, and common destiny? I submit to you that it's the latter, and no empire nor state organized as the former can endure.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by mcphage on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @07:53AM (#42710316)
> Or is it a specific group of people in a specific place with a shared language, lineage, culture, history, faith, and common destiny?

I'm American, so I've never lived in this kind of nation.

> no empire nor state organized as the former can endure.

Looking at many of the longer-lived nations and empires of the past—having a shared language, lineage, culture, history, faith, common destiny? They had none of those. They were a conglomeration of people speaking different languages, from different lineages, with different cultures, different histories, and practicing different faiths.

Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by brickfaced on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @01:26PM (#42714948)
>I'm American, so I've never lived in this kind of nation.

"What is water?", said the fish

Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by mcphage on Thursday January 16, 2025 @08:10AM (#42724640)
Wait, you think America is that? Dude, you need to get out more, meet some new people.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by johnnyanmac on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @06:44PM (#42705523)
I wouldn't say most native borns "built" the US. But sure, there are plenty of native born leaders who set the direction towards building such stuff.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by vikramkr on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @05:58PM (#42705082)
If you want to pick an era of technological progress to make that point maybe don't pick the one that involves America becoming a superpower by putting a bomb invented by Jewish refugees on a rocket build by ex Nazi scientists after a physics revolution where be basically got to go and take all of Germany's top talent lol
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by brickfaced on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @11:36PM (#42707354)
Thanks for pointing out that a one-time immigration of 1,200 elite white Europeans helped put a man on the Moon. I wonder why the millions of low-wage IT worker Indians who've come here since then haven't gotten us back up there. Thoughts, Vikram?
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by lostlogin on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @06:15PM (#42705253)
> The US didn't win World War 2

The USSR would like a word.

Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by brickfaced on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @11:33PM (#42707334)
The USSR never did pay us back for the massive, unprecedented, war-winning aid we delivered to them under Lend-Lease. Half a million trucks, thousands of tanks, tens of thousands of airplanes, millions of tons of food. And what did we get out of it? An implacable evil empire that sat like a boot on the neck of Eastern Europe for another 50 years after our "victory."
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by defrost on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @11:43PM (#42707393)

  A total of $50.1 billion (equivalent to $672 billion in 2023 when accounting for inflation) worth of supplies was shipped, or 17% of the total war expenditures of the U.S.

  In all, $31.4 billion went to the United Kingdom, $11.3 billion to the Soviet Union, $3.2 billion to France, $1.6 billion to China, and the remaining $2.6 billion to other Allies.

  Material delivered under the act was supplied at no cost, to be used until returned or destroyed.

  In practice, most equipment was destroyed, although some hardware (such as ships) was returned after the war.

  Supplies that arrived after the termination date were sold to the United Kingdom at a large discount for £1.075 billion, using long-term loans from the United States, which were finally repaid in 2006.

  Similarly, the Soviet Union repaid $722 million in 1971, with the remainder of the debt written off.
~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by lostlogin on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @01:14AM (#42707893)
This is all correct. It’s also hard to believe that any other country could have sustained the casualties the USSR took and it saved lives for the other allies by diverting troops to the Eastern Front. The US had nearly 500k deaths, the USSR (post war borders) had something like 26 million.

Both sides needed each other. From a US perspective, trading money for lives likely seemed worth it.

The USSR was an objectively terrible regime, and most the Russian governments that have followed on from it have been too. Underestimating the deaths Russian leadership is willing to tolerate has proven unwise a few too many times.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by krapp on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @04:47PM (#42704354)
Unless your ancestors crossed the Bering Strait ten thousand years ago, calling yourself "native born" doesn't mean a thing.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by WillPostForFood on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @05:00PM (#42704504)
If you only came across ten thousand years ago, you are just a colonist that killed and displaced the people who came across sixteen thousand years ago. But that said, native born has a definition, and it is where you were born, not where your parents, grandparents or grand^14 parents was born.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by johnnyanmac on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @06:47PM (#42705543)
my grand^10 parent's didn't exactly "immigrate" her per se. They were "invited". I guess they were "persuaded" to help fight the occasional war though.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by scelerat on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @05:03PM (#42704536)
What’s magic about the Bering strait?
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by slater on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @06:38PM (#42705478)
Usually considered the way that first humans got to the landmass, way back when.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by krapp on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @05:24PM (#42704775)
It's always a treat knowing every comment you get is going to either be triggered or purposely obtuse.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by TheGamerUncle on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @05:01PM (#42704517)
It is kind of disingenuous and dishonest to say that there is no value or meaning on those Americans born in American soil, a nation should prioritize the people that live on it or well at least care for them and make them useful for nation building in the future.

Canada has proven that importing punjabis for almost two decades and ignoring the local people is not effective. So yeah there is a meaningful difference and saying native born in this context allows us to steer the conversation towards taking care towards those in the country already, which is something that neolib governments have not done in the last decades.

I say this as a person that was not born in the country he resides in now, but saying "calling yourself "native born" doesn't mean a thing " is a dishonest way to try to dissuade and delete necessary words that work towards more fruitful conversatons about how to improve th esytems in North America.

Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by krapp on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @05:22PM (#42704767)
>Canada has proven that importing punjabis for almost two decades and ignoring the local people is not effective.

Curious, that's what Americans once said about the Irish and the Italians and the Germans and the French and the Poles and the Chinese and Jews and Catholics and Muslims and so on and on ad nauseum.

It's just a generational crab mentality born from xenophobia. Every new wave of immigrants decides they're "native" as soon as the next wave shows up. None of them are any more native than the others.

Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by TheGamerUncle on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @08:37PM (#42706323)
It seems like you have misread my comment and think I have a particular thing against any group of people.

That is simply not the intention of the comment, if you read correctly you will note that what I meant is that you need to take care of your own people, something that the United States ACCOMPLISHED from the fifties until before Reagan.

I am just not more native than an Indian or Italian person that just like me came a few decades ago. However to pretend there is no difference between me and someone whose family has been here for decades or centuries... that is dishonest.

Why do you call Xenophobia to prioritize giving good jobs to the local population ? It seems like your reading comprehension as well as your definition of Xenophobia is deeply, deeply flawed. We can have immigration that makes sense. Like what Canada used to have...

We should prioritize those that have been for decades in a country and those whose families have paid taxes for multiple generations, there is absolutely nothing xenophobic about that.

Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by brickfaced on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @11:35PM (#42707343)
This type of solipsistic kumbaya slop is running face-first into reality, fast. People are different. Groups of people are different. Nations of people can be very different. They differ in meaningful and important and obvious ways. You'll live to see these differences continue to manifest in ways that will doubtless surprise you.

And the Ellis Islanders were at least mostly Christian, white, European. They shared a common cultural, historical, religious, and racial frame with native-born Americans. They could and did meaningfully assimilate. Despite this, that wave of migrants almost broke us. Anarchy, terrorism, riots, organized crime, et cetera. The Johnson-Reed Act was passed in response in 1924 and it slowed immigration to a crawl until the 1960s.

Today we have immigrants who speak utterly alien tongues, with no shared history or civilized tradition, arriving at breakneck pace, and who barely learn English because they can scrape by with apps and translation services, who stay in the cultural bubble of their country of origin, who don't see an American culture worth assimilating to. Especially among so-called high skill immigrants, they pick up a US passport and immediately see me as a worse or lesser "American" than they are. That's nuts. The melting pot, if one ever existed, has broken down. What's happening now is something quite different, and it's not good for me or my fellow Americans.

Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by selimthegrim on Thursday January 16, 2025 @07:09AM (#42724234)
My ancestor was a Punjabi who immigrated in 1920. He managed not to blow up the country.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by brickfaced on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @01:23PM (#42714908)
You would never apply this reductive, solipsistic lens to any non-white ethnicity or culture and I think you know it
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by numpad0 on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @04:42PM (#42704303)
Today's Einstein ARE immigrating to US for such positions as finance, adtech and management, ones that explicitly produce no physical artifact.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by johnnyanmac on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @06:40PM (#42705496)
But not for the hardware that powers the white collar. China is taking those.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by numpad0 on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @07:41AM (#42710232)
Exactly. Something is penalizing or inhibiting manufacturing in developed countries. That something is just regular progression on the ladder of classical infinitely extending three-sector model[1] and gradual obsolescence of its lower rungs, but that is problematic, and without healthy preceding sectors for each, it's just a measuring contest being held in a skydiving.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_sector

Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by anothername12 on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @06:30PM (#42705403)
Unfortunately, I spent more than a trivial amount of time wondering what an Einstein of Adtech looks like.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by sho_hn on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @08:50PM (#42706402)
Is adtech the new pejorative for Facebook & co?
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @03:21AM (#42708619)
Adtech is a pejorative on its own.
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by niceice on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @05:46PM (#42704982)
Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by LeanderK on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @07:33PM (#42705916)
I just want to point out that germany and US have a similar number when adjusted to it's respected population size (I think it's even a little bit higher).

I am kinda surprised to see it so far on the top

Re:Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC... by lostlogin on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @06:10PM (#42705196)
Does a want to immigrate necessarily mean that the US is the most favoured destination for the world’s intellectuals?

It might, but how do you measure that?