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Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by lolinder on Monday December 02, 2024 @01:59PM (#42299202)
> Matthew Olm (opens a new tab), a physiologist who studies the human microbiome at the University of Colorado, Boulder and was not involved with the study, is “inherently skeptical” of the idea that populations of microbes could live in the brain, he said. But he found the new research convincing. “This is concrete evidence that brain microbiomes do exist in vertebrates,” he said. “And so the idea that humans have a brain microbiome is not outlandish.”

It's interesting to me that it would ever have been considered outlandish. In light of everything we now know about microbiomes and microbiology in general, it seems to me as a layman that the more radical proposition would be that the blood-brain barrier would be 100% effective at keeping out all bacteria, rather than the proposition that it probably isn't but that the bacteria it does let in tend to be symbiotic.

Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by outworlder on Monday December 02, 2024 @02:17PM (#42299383)
> it seems to me as a layman that the more radical proposition would be that the blood-brain barrier would be 100% effective at keeping out all bacteria,

Bacteria is not usually found in most organs in the body though. Even more so in an organ as important as the brain that even our own immune system doesn't have access. The brain has its own cells to do that job. In order for bacteria to cross the blood brain barrier you need bacteria in the blood first, where they aren't normally found without getting under fire.

Having bacteria in the gut is more obvious and makes more sense.

Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by __MatrixMan__ on Monday December 02, 2024 @02:28PM (#42299471)
Agreed. Additionally, one of the mechanisms keeping the gut bacteria from taking over the rest of the body is an oxygen gradient: anaerobic bacteria in the gut are unlikely to be interested in an exploration of the aerobic environment of the body. Oxygen diffuses freely across the blood brain barrier, so it would not serve as an analogous containment mechanism.
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by lolinder on Monday December 02, 2024 @02:23PM (#42299427)
The lungs, mammary glands, uterus, ovaries, vagina, placenta, semen, eyes, skin, and nasal cavity all have their own documented microbiome so far, and we've been finding out about new microbiomes about once a year. They are not a thing that is reserved for the digestive tract.
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by __MatrixMan__ on Monday December 02, 2024 @02:35PM (#42299540)
If you were to simplify the human body to a sphere (or torus... or whatever corresponds with the number of orifices that a human has), then all of the microbiomes you've listed would be on the exterior. The brain (and heart and kidneys and liver and bones and...) would not be.

The microflora would need to have gotten there somehow, something analogous to endosymbiosis. But unless they're somehow getting from brain-to-egg-to-brain that's hard to explain. As for the others, they're easier, all being along the surfaces. Even the gut is on the "outside" in that membranes need not be crossed in order to access it.

Although counterpoint: the same argument would apply to a fish so I guess it's not impossible. Just more surprising.

Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by Wilsoniumite on Monday December 02, 2024 @03:07PM (#42299854)
I think it depends a bit on how you count but I've heard it is an 8 holed donut
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by __MatrixMan__ on Monday December 02, 2024 @03:41PM (#42300182)
It also differs between individuals (e.g. one can develop a fistula).
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by eru on Monday December 02, 2024 @06:32PM (#42301522)
Or get a piercing.
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by InDubioProRubio on Tuesday December 03, 2024 @05:07AM (#42304607)
So getting pierced, puts one topological outside of baseline humanity?
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday December 03, 2024 @10:24AM (#42307097)
I suppose it does. Be careful, you wouldn't want to end up homeomorphic to the wrong crowd.
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by moi2388 on Tuesday December 03, 2024 @10:46AM (#42307382)
Aren’t tattoos injective?
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by kazinator on Thursday December 05, 2024 @03:03AM (#42326010)
When two artists do each other's backs, bijective.
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by worksonmymach on Tuesday December 03, 2024 @07:11AM (#42305323)
If I met a 8 holed donut I'd tear it a new one.
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday December 03, 2024 @10:28AM (#42307155)
I expect I'd start by tearing it one fewer: now a seven holed donut with some stubs.
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by 725686 on Monday December 02, 2024 @06:36PM (#42301564)
Michael Stevens of VSauce fame has you covered with his "How Many Holes Does a Human Have?" video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egEraZP9yXQ

Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by tmnvix on Monday December 02, 2024 @09:10PM (#42302387)
Thanks for mentioning this. I really enjoyed the video and learned a thing or two. Would recommend!
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by weberer on Tuesday December 03, 2024 @07:05AM (#42305277)
We already know of harmful pathogens that can infect the brain, such as Borreliosis. The only jump now is the fact that there could also exist harmless bacteria.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8232152/

Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by adrian_b on Tuesday December 03, 2024 @11:53AM (#42308288)
Spirochetes are much more efficient than most bacteria at moving through very viscous media, which include the obstacles encountered when moving through an animal body.

Thus, both the spirochetes causing Lyme disease and those causing syphilis have high chances of reaching even the brain, while traveling through the body.

Fortunately, for the bacteria employing other means of locomotion it is usually more difficult to pass through many of the internal body tissues, as long as those are intact.

Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by mschuster91 on Tuesday December 03, 2024 @10:28AM (#42307138)
> But unless they're somehow getting from brain-to-egg-to-brain that's hard to explain.

There are pathways from the outside to the brain - most notably the nose and the eyes. The former have a known pathogen pathway (naegleria fowleri, a virtually 100% fatal parasite), the latter are actually an immunoprivileged site [1] and investigations are ongoing what the role of eyes is in the transmission of H5N1 bird flu.

[1] https://www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/eye-immune-pr...

[2] https://www.unmc.edu/healthsecurity/transmission/2024/06/04/...

Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by outworlder on Monday December 02, 2024 @02:35PM (#42299539)
The brain is _unusually_ protected though. There's nothing like the blood brain barrier basically anywhere else. Most the the tissues you mentioned are exposed to the environment in some way. There aren't many ways to reach the brain without getting inside the body first(sensory organs being the obvious pathway, but even that is a stretch).

Not saying it's impossible, just that the skepticism is warranted.

Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by forgotoldacc on Monday December 02, 2024 @08:41PM (#42302221)
> There's nothing like the blood brain barrier basically anywhere else.

There is. The placenta and, oddly, prostate as well.

Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by BurningFrog on Monday December 02, 2024 @02:37PM (#42299553)
Those are all organs that are directly exposed to outside materials.

For the more internal organs, bacteria would have to travel across a skin of digestive tract barrier.

Unless they're present in the womb as the fetus starts growing, I guess.

Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by askvictor on Monday December 02, 2024 @03:42PM (#42300195)
Indeed, those organs expose to the outside world have reason to cultivate friendly bacteria for no other reason than to take up space, to stop hostile bacteria having a place to take hold.
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by 20after4 on Monday December 02, 2024 @07:23PM (#42301849)
> even our own immune system doesn't have access

I thought that was recently found to be false? Or at least it isn't the full picture. see for example: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abo7649

Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by s1artibartfast on Monday December 02, 2024 @07:30PM (#42301898)
It is certainly true as a rule of thumb, although there may be more going on locally that was previously thought
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by panabee on Monday December 02, 2024 @07:37PM (#42301938)
This is unrelated to your main point, more to clarify an edge case for those interested in learning more: B cells can breach the BBB under certain conditions.

At least one pathogen, Epstein-Barr virus, is known to inhabit B cells.

Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by ghurtado on Monday December 02, 2024 @09:57PM (#42302706)
> Having bacteria in the gut is more obvious and makes more sense.

It probably has to do with the fact that, topologically speaking, the stomach (and the whole GI tract) is technically on the outside of our bodies.

Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by eleveriven on Tuesday December 03, 2024 @01:47AM (#42303565)
But bacteria are incredibly adaptable
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by kazinator on Thursday December 05, 2024 @02:58AM (#42325984)
The gut is an involution of the outside surface; whatever is in the gut is essentially outside of the body, the same way that the inside of the hole of a donut is actually outside of the donut.
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by dekhn on Monday December 02, 2024 @02:30PM (#42299487)
From what I understand about the BBB, it's practically impermeable to anything the size of a bacteria (mainly intended for gating small molecules like fats and drugs), until an individual has some sort of disease or other health problem that effects the BBB's integrity. But I can easily imagine that some bacteria (harmful, or helpful) could have exactly the right surface proteins to indicate it's permitted.

I guess this review/writeup https://asm.org/articles/2020/april/how-pathogens-penetrate-... covers most of the known mechanisms for traveral of the BBB by pathogens.

Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by njtransit on Monday December 02, 2024 @02:18PM (#42299393)
Is it the blood brain barrier that keeps out bacteria or your immune system? Admittedly I know little about biology, but I thought bacteria growing inside your body was generally considered a “bad thing” (topologically speaking, your digestive system is outside your body).
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by outworlder on Monday December 02, 2024 @02:29PM (#42299474)
Indeed. In order to even try to cross the blood brain barrier, an organism would have to be in the blood already. If that's unexpected, the immune system certainly won't like it. Large compounds and even immune cells aren't supposed to cross it. Usually brain infections are from tiny viruses because of that, unless they found another way (like ear, nose or eye infections, all of them effectively brain 'appendages').

Now, it could be the case that in a person with a compromised immune system AND a compromised blood brain barrier, that organisms would be able to live long enough to reach the brain. Once there, they would be mostly shielded from the immune system, except for brain glial cells (and I guess antibodies; usually the blood brain barrier stops most of them)

Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by tomcam on Monday December 02, 2024 @06:00PM (#42301266)
I am skeptical that the brain wouldn't have a microbiome
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by throwawaymaths on Monday December 02, 2024 @07:04PM (#42301756)
There are regions of the body that almost certainly do not have a microbiome, for example the viteous humor
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by tomcam on Tuesday December 03, 2024 @03:21AM (#42304054)
I’m talking about the brain in particular. A lot goes on and it consumes a ton of resources.
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by F-Lexx on Tuesday December 03, 2024 @03:35AM (#42304130)
> A lot goes on and it consumes a ton of resources.

But why should this be taken a sign of a brain microbiome? I fail to see the connection you're implying.

Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by tomcam on Tuesday December 03, 2024 @08:33PM (#42313667)
Pure intuition, nothing more. I think we're just beginning to understand the microbiome and the brain does so much, has so many ports, and requires so many resources, that I think there are probably hundreds or thousands of heretofore unknown critters it relies on.
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by seizethecheese on Monday December 02, 2024 @06:58PM (#42301709)
A start: do fish have a blood brain barrier that’s similar to humans?
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by fasteo on Tuesday December 03, 2024 @04:24AM (#42304394)
This is indeed the first question to ask. According to ChatGpt (don't beat me up)

>>> Yes, fish brains have a blood-brain barrier (BBB)

Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by card_zero on Tuesday December 03, 2024 @04:42AM (#42304485)
You can't just say "don't beat me up" and expect not to be beaten up.

Anyway there's a pdf here that probably tells what kind of a BBB zebrafish have.

https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/22/22/12111

And the article itself says "... communities of bacteria thriving in salmon and trout brains. Many of the microbial species have special adaptations that allow them to survive in brain tissue, as well as techniques to cross the protective blood-brain barrier."

Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by fasteo on Tuesday December 03, 2024 @06:35AM (#42305086)
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by glfharris on Monday December 02, 2024 @07:28PM (#42301888)
CSF sampling is a routine investigation in most hospitals. We don't typically see bacteria in these samples, when we do, its in the form of bacterial meningitis, hence the skepticism.
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by biofunsf on Monday December 02, 2024 @08:48PM (#42302249)
When something seems obvious to me but scientists in the field disagree, I usually take this a sign I need to improve my own understanding.
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by lolinder on Monday December 02, 2024 @08:51PM (#42302269)
Unfortunately as often as not this doesn't seem to be the case. Expertise in a field often seems to create blinders.
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by eleveriven on Tuesday December 03, 2024 @01:45AM (#42303556)
And I think the brain, like other organs, might have its own microbial community, even if it’s a small or specialized one.
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by sumitkumar on Tuesday December 03, 2024 @07:35AM (#42305480)
I like to think that the bacteria are only on the outermost layer of the body, i.e. skin. It just happens so that the respiratory and the digestive systems are the exterior part of the body which are inside our body. In other words epithelial cells mark the boundary of inside and outside and bacteria are usually tolerated on the outside and not inside.
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by dr_dshiv on Tuesday December 03, 2024 @08:26AM (#42305793)
So, what does that say about the possibility of fungal symbiotes?
Re:Fish have a brain microbiome – could humans have one too? by lm28469 on Tuesday December 03, 2024 @12:55PM (#42309014)
> It's interesting to me that it would ever have been considered outlandish

Not so long ago we thought fish or even human babies didn't feel pain, we take a lot of things for granted. https://hms.harvard.edu/news/long-life-early-pain