News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by tencentshill on Monday October 07, 2024 @04:00PM (#41770321)
Soon we'll have the Verizon Appstore and the Spotify Appstore and the Zoom Appstore, the exclusive home for each app and their partners, each with it's own overlapping user tracking libraries and insecure payment methods, and no one can even tell them to do otherwise. Coming soon to iOS, too!
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by akira2501 on Monday October 07, 2024 @04:15PM (#41770518)
Yep. Then consumers can decide which one is best for them. Then they can compete. Then the best features with the best pricing, no only for customers, but the cut for developers, can be discovered.

You pay such a high price for living in the walled garden. I honestly can't imagine why you would _want_ it.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by jpc0 on Monday October 07, 2024 @04:33PM (#41770709)
Amazon Prime Video... Netflix... Disney Plus... The choices are great...

Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum...

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by tuna74 on Monday October 07, 2024 @04:40PM (#41770793)
Yeah, and Crunchyroll, and Viki and a lot of other services most people probably don't know about.
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by Mindwipe on Monday October 07, 2024 @04:55PM (#41770942)
Yes, they are. This competition means an enormous boom in quality content has been produced that would have never existed otherwise because of the competition.

Choices are great and have resulted in far better services.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by kelnos on Monday October 07, 2024 @05:17PM (#41771168)
I don't agree. TV/movie programming, and the services they run on, are not fungible. If I have a show that I like that's only on a certain platform, it doesn't matter how good or bad that platform is, I need a subscription.

The problem is tying the content to the platform. All studios should be required to license their content under RAND terms to all other streaming platforms. Then the streaming platforms can actually compete on objective measures like price, reliability, video quality, offline watching, etc.

In this case I don't think we've gotten better services. I still believe that the gold standard for a streaming app has been Netflix (well, at least until a few years ago; it's started going downhill IMO). All the others have significant problems, whether with reliability or quality, or with UX. They've certainly gotten better over time, but I don't think I'd consider any of them pleasant to use.

For the longest time, legally, movie studios could not own movie theaters. We correctly recognized that the studios should not have a monopoly on where and how their content is distributed. Unfortunately I believe that law has expired or been repealed recently. We're going in the wrong direction. We need more laws like that, and we need them to apply to streaming platforms too.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by johnnyanmac on Monday October 07, 2024 @09:05PM (#41772809)
>it doesn't matter how good or bad that platform is, I need a subscription.

cool. and Netflix's binge culture works against them for subscribers who only want one show. A new season hits and I can spend $10-20 to watch it and leave.

It will depend on your perspective. If you watch a bunch of TV and movies everyday then you got a worse deal. But it also makes sense you'd pay more than me, who's last venture was 1 month of Paramount for the Knuckles Show (and I didn't even pay. I went to a friend's place).

>We correctly recognized that the studios should not have a monopoly on where and how their content is distributed. Unfortunately I believe that law has expired or been repealed recently. We're going in the wrong direction.

I mean, it's not like the current endgame of AMC or Cinemark has turned out better. I paid $14 for the saddest hot dog I had ever eaten earlier in the year. someone will always try to fleece you if they have the chance.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by lolinder on Monday October 07, 2024 @08:07PM (#41772479)
> an enormous boom in quality content has been produced

Hard disagree. The rate of quality content that I actually want to watch is no higher than it was back when I could view it all on Netflix, but the difference now is that in order to watch it all I'd have to have four different subscription channels.

I'm honestly not even sure the content quality isn't lower now that everyone is producing it with the idea of selling their still-unprofitable streaming platform. Amazon sinks a billion dollars per season into Rings of Power and it shows—the showrunners are visibly torn between trying to tell a compelling story and trying to meet executives' demands that they compete with HBO and milk the Peter Jackson connections for all they're worth.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by johnnyanmac on Monday October 07, 2024 @09:01PM (#41772794)
yeah. If I want to watch a show, I pay the $10-12, immediately not renew, and watch the show and maybe a few other things. And repeat if anything interesting comes on.

I don't need everything all in one place. Piracy was always the cheapest option if you wanted to spend time fiddling, but the current official means is much more convenient than the cable contract lock-in days.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by throw16180339 on Monday October 07, 2024 @05:18PM (#41771176)
> You pay such a high price for living in the walled garden. I honestly can't imagine why you would _want_ it.

I got an iPhone so that I wouldn't have to deal with the Android ecosystem. I go to the app store, install an app, and get on with my life.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by johnnyanmac on Monday October 07, 2024 @08:56PM (#41772764)
okay, so I assume those who jailbreak don't live rent free in your head? That's all that's happening on a technical level. Making it easier to have other Cydia stores.
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by crazygringo on Monday October 07, 2024 @06:22PM (#41771717)
How can I decide which store is best for me when the only store I can get Spotify from is the Spotify store? And the only store with Instagram is the Meta store?

If every store had to make every app available, then sure I'd have choice and maybe that could be super cool.

But nobody's talking about that. We're talking about a world where major corporations will make their apps available only through their own stores and can refuse to do refunds and make canceling subscriptions a nightmare.

I don't see any increased choice at all. All I see is corporations forcing their own stores, that will probably be far less consumer-friendly, and users won't have any increased choice at all.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by chesong on Monday October 07, 2024 @08:04PM (#41772454)
I can definitely see that happening, but there have been examples of where large companies support broader market access over exclusivity.

For example, Google Maps isn't limited to Android, even though it could drive more Android sales. Instead, it's available on iOS because the potential market loss outweighs the benefits of exclusivity.

Companies are unlikely to limit apps to their own stores if the cost of shrinking their user base is too high. The key factor will be whether consumers are willing to switch platforms for specific apps.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by crazygringo on Monday October 07, 2024 @11:02PM (#41773451)
But Google Maps is on iOS because there's hundreds of dollars worth of friction in buying a new phone. Google knows people won't leave iOS just to use Google Maps.

In contrast, installing another app store is just a few taps. Consumers want the app, and then will be forced into a situation where they've got 10 or 15 different app stores installed to support the 20 apps they use, because no corporation wants another corporation taking a percentage of payments or controlling app review.

It will be lovely.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by o11c on Monday October 07, 2024 @07:25PM (#41772203)
The reason that isn't too much of a problem is that if an app is only available on one store, a significant fraction of people will simply not install it. Businesses don't want to lose customers like that, but the mere fact that they could will force Monopoly App Store to act more reasonably.

We'll probably see 3-4 major stores that manage to get enough mindshare for people to actually install them, and a lot of apps available on a 2-ish-store subset of them.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by bongodongobob on Monday October 07, 2024 @07:03PM (#41772046)
0 people outside of tech geeks want more than one app store. None.
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by SllX on Monday October 07, 2024 @07:11PM (#41772106)
That’s only because you can’t understand that I don’t want a package manager for my package managers. I just want to install the damn software and be done with it; and I’m pretty happy with the way Apple runs the App Store as an iPhone customer, even though I think some of the restrictions are also senseless as viewed through that prism and their developer relations has been a dumpster fire for close to 10 years now. None of that is enough to get me excited about some future great App Store competition.
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by mvdtnz on Monday October 07, 2024 @11:56PM (#41773685)
> I just want to install the damn software and be done with it

So use the built-in app store, like you are doing today.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by burnerthrow008 on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @12:26AM (#41773825)
Prey tell, how will I do that when, as has been extensively explained in this thread, every app will be in its own store?
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by mvdtnz on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @04:22AM (#41774946)
We all know that's not going to happen.
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by SllX on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @01:02AM (#41773994)
If every App I currently use and will want to use in the future continues to be found in the App Store, that’s the plan.

The possible future where that plan goes off the rails is if developers start pulling their software off the App Store and stop following Apple’s rules because they can. Right now they can’t while remaining iPhone developers.

Like I said, there’s a lot that’s a dumpster fire with developer relations between Apple and App Store developers, but you always know where Apple stands:

1. Apple

2. Apple’s Customers

3. Developers

Yeah I’d like them to loosen up some of the restrictions, but it’s still to my advantage as an iPhone customer that developers who choose to develop for iPhones from the smallest to the very largest to even the government are forced to deal with Apple on Apple’s terms to distribute software.

Apple’s dumpster fire in developer relations is also only half the story over the last decade; a lot of the largest developers of the most popular apps on the App Store have also been at the forefront of innovating new and creative ways to try and circumvent even the smallest limitations on iPhones leading to Apple spending the better part of the decade coming up with new APIs, new entitlements and new legal contracts walking this tightrope between enabling or keeping enabled useful APIs while also protecting user privacy and security. It’s not an easy task they’ve taken up, and short of the government literally outlawing most of the surveillance-oriented business practices a lot of Apple’s peers engage in (practices which the government also benefits from), this is basically the next best thing.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by davidczech on Monday October 07, 2024 @08:43PM (#41772698)
I wish that was true, but the exit and prompt return of seemingly every PC game developer back to Steam doesn't give much hope.
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by johnnyanmac on Monday October 07, 2024 @08:58PM (#41772776)
can't stop business. I just want Steam to not get in my way outside of giving their share and giving clear feedback on their reviews and what is wrong with my releases. Open Source isn't mainstream, but I don't care about that.

Given current lawsuits, Valve does neither.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by itake on Monday October 07, 2024 @09:10PM (#41772835)
If every company self regulates their own App Store, then who is going to go to ensure apps are trustworthy and reliable?

Imagine if Spotify had a Spotify store that required device id tracking for their ad network.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by FridgeSeal on Monday October 07, 2024 @11:55PM (#41773681)
> Imagine if Spotify had a Spotify store that required device id tracking for their ad network.

I’m pretty sure the likes of Adobe and Meta would be literally foaming at the mouth in excitement over the potential for this.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by 393744748 on Monday October 07, 2024 @09:17PM (#41772872)
I want it because I've seen the Samsung app store and am not inspired by the idea of more trash. People like curated gardens because they're curated.
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Monday October 07, 2024 @04:13PM (#41770499)
I like my app store called "the internet."
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by whimsicalism on Monday October 07, 2024 @04:04PM (#41770368)
Right, just like how they've done on desktop environments
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by hooli42 on Monday October 07, 2024 @04:26PM (#41770659)
This is exactly the situation for desktop games right now, something Epic is profiting immensely from. It's an extremely annoying situation for users, having a dozen launcher/store apps around contributing to bloat.
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by brink on Monday October 07, 2024 @04:55PM (#41770951)
That's exactly the competition that keeps PC from having the hiked prices the likes of Switch/XBox/PS5 stores and having to pay $15/mo to play games with your friends online.

I'll happily have to deal with a few extra launchers on PC in comparison to what the alternative is.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by wiseowise on Monday October 07, 2024 @05:01PM (#41771006)
I literally don't have anything but Steam installed.
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by Mindwipe on Monday October 07, 2024 @04:53PM (#41770935)
No it isn't, the competition is great and is lowering prices across the board, and no arbitrary censorship exists.

The desktop games market is much heathier and less dangerous for users than the mobile app market.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by makeitdouble on Monday October 07, 2024 @08:24PM (#41772575)
> It's an extremely annoying situation for users

This is where I see how long that battle will be.

The future where this "extremely annoying" situation is fully solved is Xbox XXX being un removable and the only Game Store allowed on any PC sold, with legal threats to anyone jailbreaking.

As long as user have a choice and control on their device, and competition is alive, we'll hopefuly have different stores with different rules and you'll be extremely annoyed I think.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by tiledjinn on Monday October 07, 2024 @11:17PM (#41773527)
More fair to say Epic is money pitting from, given discoveries from Epic v Apple and Epic v Google..
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by mvdtnz on Monday October 07, 2024 @11:33PM (#41773601)
> It's an extremely annoying situation for users

Is it? I regularly use Steam, Epic and XBox and occasionally Ubi, Larian and whatever the GoG one is called... and it's fine. It's just another program.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by fkyoureadthedoc on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @10:42AM (#41777889)
Yeah, it is. I don't use anything except Steam. If it's not on Steam I'm not buying or playing it. Making your game exclusive to one distribution channel is stupid.
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by mvdtnz on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @01:27PM (#41779667)
How is it "extremely annoying", it sounds like it doesn't even affect you.
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by maxwell on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @09:17AM (#41777048)
Speak for yourself. I love shopping around and comparing prices. Competition is not bloat.
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by kobalsky on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @01:16PM (#41779551)
I'm getting a free game from Epic every week for having their launcher installed.

Competition is awesome.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by SSLy on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @07:10PM (#41782735)
I think you can even just grab them via www.
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by hggigg on Monday October 07, 2024 @05:55PM (#41771475)
Aye and it’s a fucking shit show.

Down with all “stores”!

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by NotPractical on Monday October 07, 2024 @06:37PM (#41771854)
That's not really a valid comparison because the Microsoft Store and the macOS App Store don't allow third party stores on them. You have to "sideload" any alternative stores/apps you want. To be clear I doubt the hellscape described by OP will come to fruition but still.
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by talldayo on Monday October 07, 2024 @04:12PM (#41770478)
That can only happen if Apple's first-party distribution terms aren't attractive. If the App Store is capable of standing on it's own, then third parties shouldn't pose a threat to it. Something tells me the lower prices and free software on alternative stores will drive adoption though.
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by n_plus_1_acc on Monday October 07, 2024 @04:37PM (#41770760)
Points at the netflix app, through which you can install bloons Tower defense
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by wiseowise on Monday October 07, 2024 @05:03PM (#41771027)
Do you have anything to prove your claim? Any precedent?

Epic could already to their own Play Store, but they didn't/couldn't. Freaking Amazon had their app store and they failed. Samsung also has their own App Store and how many non-Samsung phones run it?

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by jimbob45 on Monday October 07, 2024 @05:09PM (#41771093)
Streaming services
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by wiseowise on Monday October 07, 2024 @05:33PM (#41771290)
Streaming services what? I can download every streaming service from Play Store.
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by elevatedastalt on Monday October 07, 2024 @08:32PM (#41772627)
What users wanted: One streaming service from where you can stream or rent any movie or show available in the world.

What users got: 1000 streaming services each with their app and UX that is shitty in a slightly different way from the other, and with a catalog that keeps changing unpredictably.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by johnnyanmac on Monday October 07, 2024 @09:08PM (#41772827)
users wants are company wants. one X is how you end up with a monopoly and an endgame where they enshittify the platform to cost as much as Cable back in the day.

I'm a bit surprised a community as tech savvy as this has frustrations over the idea of using multiple platforms. decentralization by its nature means you'll have fragmentation of content. But it protects against the worse ending of Youtube price hiking mulitple times a year and doubling down on adblock users.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by elevatedastalt on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @01:38PM (#41779792)
The clusterfuck of the media universe is actually _because_ of monopoly. But it's not monopoly on UX, it is monopoly on the content.

If you want to watch the Lion King, Disney has your balls in a vice grip.

I would be perfectly fine with a hundred different UXes, if they could all serve me Lion King and I had an option to pay for it. Then it would be an actual decentralization. A syndicated system where I can access a movie or song on any platform (of my choice), and the copyright holder gets paid appropriately would be an approach most people in the tech savvy community would be happy with.

For all the noise journalists and the justice department make about big tech, there is basically ZERO action taken about the monopolization of IP that media houses indulge in.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by al_borland on Monday October 07, 2024 @06:10PM (#41771611)
I see where it says Google isn't allowed to do this kind of thing. I hope they were forward thinking enough to ban exclusivity deals across the board, or this is going to turn into a total goat rodeo.

The EU has a lot of well-meaning laws, but create quite the mess of unintended consequences.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by charles_f on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @02:40AM (#41774386)
This is a civil case in the US though
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by johnnyanmac on Monday October 07, 2024 @08:55PM (#41772760)
okay. Then I just use APK pure and find the APKs there. See what freedom does?

Realistically, this never happens. making a platform isn't some cheap endeavor like a landing page for a website. Most people will stay on the play store and use play services. Those with more skin will consider alternative stores, and then lastly some will make their own platforms.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by itake on Monday October 07, 2024 @09:09PM (#41772830)
If the phone manufacturers stop including the play store in the default install. Then would people still use the play store?
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by johnnyanmac on Monday October 07, 2024 @09:15PM (#41772858)
that's the funny thing. I think they still will, but the people up in Google apparently don't even want to risk the chance of losing any marketshare. That's why they spend millions to Apple to keep Google as the default search, even though many consumer's first instinct is to go to Google as is.

It's a strange strategy to me, but I guess I may underestimate however many people will just stick to whatever pops up first.

Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by clhodapp on Monday October 07, 2024 @11:26PM (#41773574)
Who is going to force Verizon to allow other app stores on their contract phones?
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by seydor on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @12:44AM (#41773914)
This but unironically. Openness breeds innovation and improvement, closing down systems never does. Safety cannot be the only innovation
Re:Google must crack open Android for third-party stores, ru... by space_oddity on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @09:16AM (#41777037)
That’s a nightmare scenario, and honestly, it’s not that far-fetched