Glad to hear it, because what Americans told me (that they get taxed for the same money they paid tax on in their host country) is bonkers.

EDIT: Seems there's some disagreement ;) The other commentor echoes what I've heard from Americans living in Europe. Absolute madness. I also heard it's very costly to try and give up your American citizenship, exactly to protect that juicy free tax America gets from it's expats.

> If they can do it to Apple, why not to regular citizens?

They already do. Knowledge worker migrants were promised eight years of tax breaks by the Dutch government, who later changed their minds after those people already moved to the Netherlands.

This isn't even that though, this is the EU saying the agreement made by Ireland with Apple wasn't legal. It's like how they get people who avoid tax by finding loopholes to pay back-taxes once the tax office catches them (yes, this happens too).

The USA has FEIE, (no federal taxes the first $120k/yr), but not all states (like Cali) honor that and may still charge you state income tax.

and FEIE doesn't exempt you from self-employment taxes.

and doesn't exempt non-earned income (dividends, etc.).

Americans can come out ahead (if they earn less than $120k/yr and live in a 0% tax country). But a non-American (like Canadian) doing the samething, would have less restrictions.

The usual case where there is a tax treaty is that the expat pays taxes at the rate of the country in which they work. It's really that simple for most people.

Whoa, so before moving to a low tax country you should move to a state that is not insane for a while and then move abroad? Crazy.

Not sure how they get away with it really, small volume I guess.

because Apple is literally made from tens of hundreds of "regular citizens"

or to keep it simple: Apple is a citizen made out of thousands of 'regular' citizens.

This is not correct, it is only practically true in trivial cases. Excess taxation is a very real pain point for Americans living overseas, never mind the other indefensible things the US government does to its expats like FATCA.

Many types of income cannot be offset nor or they covered by tax treaties. Every time there is an impedance mismatch between US tax code and foreign tax code, including basic things like classification of income, deductions, and exemptions, you can end up with liabilities in both countries. It is not uncommon to pay more taxes in aggregate as an expat than you would pay in either country separately.

The way the US government, and some State governments, treat American expats is quite fucked.

Indians effectively pay taxes as residents without any permanent residency benefits for decades

If I got a job in India, would I not need to pay taxes?

USA always overreaches.

Your bank was terrified of losing access to US markets, so your bank forced you to prove you're not a US person to be super safe about US tax compliance. Seems like your complaint is with your bank, not the US. You're welcome to bank with a bank that has different policies. I have had European bank accounts before and I've certainly never been asked to prove I am not a US person. (On the other hand, I was asked to sign an absurd amount of paperwork that had nothing to do with the US, because it's Europe, and you need thirty-four forms and a notary public to be allowed to even exist.)

> USA always overreaches.

The US doesn't care about you at all.

of course not - they're a nobody.

They don't mean the US cares about the individual - the post is about the general level of regulation that the US is able to force upon third parties.

But then again, this is what it means to be sovereign. And to be honest, the US's overreach is not as high as it could've been given how much clout they have. Imagine if it was china in the same powerful position - what would've been the overreach then?

It's more that a lot of them got fines a decade ago because of that so now US citizens are just straight up banned from most European banks.

Anyway it's not an issue for non-rich expats, you just have to file a tax return which shows you owe $0.

The hilarious thing about this statement is that it costs a few thousand dollars to renounce (as in a fee, paid to the embassy) and they reserve the right to come get you up to ten years later in tax cases.

EDIT: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_Amendment_(immigration) (Thanks, ChatGPT!)

In theory, yes. I knew someone having a heck of a hard time doing so though. Here's the process:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relinquishment_of_United_State...

It's pretty expensive and difficult.

actually you are not free to do that. renouncing citizenship requires a reason other than "to escape tax obligations"

You're missing part of the point, though. Almost no other country in the world has rules like this. The US government provides among the lowest level of services for its citizens out of any first-world government, so there's no reason it needs to be that much more strict. You should be asking why it's necessary if only from a competitive standpoint-- why are other countries able to treat their expats so much more respectfully?

they provide you the world's premier military! That costs a pretty penny.

It is not: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relinquishment_of_United_State...

That's news to me and I've been doing international tax for 15 years. Please, tell me what types of income earned by a U.S. expat isn't covered by a tax treaty?

It is not uncommon to pay more taxes in aggregate as an expat than you would pay in either country separately.

This is objectively false. For an expat, income taxes paid to a resident country are a dollar-for-dollar credit against your U.S. income taxes, and that's on top of the inclusion threshold that doesn't subject the first $X of foreign income to any U.S. taxation at all.

I am not a tax person, but selling a house can cause you to owe tax in the US even if you did not owe any tax in the country you are living in (and sold the house in).

Famously one of the reasons Boris Johnson tried to give up his US citizenship (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-30932891).

> Unlike the UK, the US levies capital gains tax on proceeds from the sale of a main residence.

I understand why it can feel unfair but by definition this is not "double taxing". The gains on the house were not taxed by the UK which is why he had to pay US taxes.

But you’re not being double taxed.

There's a lot of VAT (value added tax, aka sales tax) that gets paid when buying goods. If this was higher than the US's in the expat's country, they don't get a credit (but conversely, if it was cheaper, then they also don't have to backpay...).

You can then take that to the country you reside, IF they have a tax treaty with the US, and apply for a credit which may or may not be accepted.

On top of this, if you’ve worked hard in the US and saved in a Roth IRA (effectively part of the US pension system), any capital gains/dividends accrued are yearly subject to taxation in your country of residence since most tax treaties pre-date the Roth vehicle. Meanwhile, you’re also obligated to pay tax to the national pension system of your country of residence resulting in a double tax, simply because US pensions are mostly private non-governmental savings.

When Europeans move to the US, the IRS doesn’t say “let’s see how much gains you’ve accrued in your national pension fund and tax them yearly.”

Yes, if you have a bad accountant. If you're getting double-taxed on your global income as an American expat, your tax preparer is committing malpractice and you should immediately find a new one.

When Europeans move to the US, the IRS doesn’t say “let’s see how much gains you’ve accrued in your national pension fund and tax them yearly.”

Because we have tax treaties that address this with over 100 countries (including Protocols (updates to treaties) that address older treaties which were ambiguous on the issue of retirement income).

You can then take that to the country you reside, IF they have a tax treaty with the US, and apply for a credit which may or may not be accepted

This is false. If the treaty applies, you don't get a tax credit...because you aren't being taxed. Conversely, if you are taxed, you will get a tax credit regardless of whether there is a treaty because all major countries have a foreign tax credit regime.

Always humorous to see people who don't know anything about tax opine like they do just because they read a few things on reddit or HN and suddenly decided they were experts.

Just one example: the Net Investment Income Tax (1), which has been ruled in court to not qualify for the foreign tax credit.

https://www.thetaxadviser.com/issues/2021/nov/tax-treaties-f...

You have to then take that money paid to the US back to your country of residence and hope that their tax officials have any understanding of the situation, and will apply it as a credit against your tax owed.

News flash: Not all countries tax officials know all the rules either. And going to appeals court over $923.65 doesn't really make sense.

Then they retired, returned to the UK, sent their kids to subsidized state universities (in the UK), receive free healthcare on the NHS, and receive state benefits for retirees.

They receive all of these state benefits and they paid almost no taxes to the UK government for most of their adult life. Is that fair?

but they would've been rescued regardless of whether they'd been paying their share of taxes, as long as they're a US citizen.

The regular citizen doesn't debate-ably owe billion in taxes.

Sure, maybe if you're a centi-billionaire the Winds of Winter might change.