News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by choo-t on Saturday September 07, 2024 @07:51AM (#41473362)
> Let me tell you a secret: it's because the gamers are demanding that.

Citation needed.

Whose these gamers ? I surely didn't ask for this neither any of the gamers I know, nor seen any demand about that in gaming forums.

> The game companies couldn't care less if there are cheaters in the game, but it's the players which put huge pressure on the game companies to detect and ban cheaters.

The jump from this to "requiring TPM" is quite a long one.

Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by dmonitor on Saturday September 07, 2024 @08:19AM (#41473501)
Cheating in online games (especially ones that are free) is so absurdly rampant and disruptive that you can sell gamers just about anything if it can meaningfully deter cheaters. Every now and then a Youtuber will say “kernel level anti-cheat is bad for [reasons]” and gamers will pretend to care about it until the video leaves the “For You” page.
Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by throwaway48476 on Saturday September 07, 2024 @12:08PM (#41474651)
Because a root kit is the only way to do anti cheat? CS2 ban wave begs to differ.
Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by wredue on Saturday September 07, 2024 @12:27PM (#41474749)
I haven’t played valorant, so I don’t know about them, but what I can say is that definitely other anti-cheats are highly ineffective (VAC being one that is highly ineffective), with blatant cheaters going years without ever being caught.

Hell, blatant cheaters literally stream themselves cheating and their own communities do not recognize the cheating till the stream makes a mistake and selects the wrong scene. This also means that VAC methods of sending footage to random players is ineffective, as some streamers who are very obviously actually cheating do so in front of tens of thousands of people, and those people do not recognize the obvious cheating happening.

We also know game companies don’t care about cheating, as activision admitted in their lawsuit that they leave cheaters on a safe list so long as the cheaters have any semblance of an audience streaming.

Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by throw10920 on Saturday September 07, 2024 @01:22PM (#41475045)
> activision admitted in their lawsuit that they leave cheaters on a safe list so long as the cheaters have any semblance of an audience streaming

That is absolutely wild, and completely characteristic of Activision.

Do you have a link that I can share with my CoD-playing friends?

Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by wredue on Saturday September 07, 2024 @05:32PM (#41476611)
https://www.charlieintel.com/call-of-duty-warzone/activision...

It really doesn’t even take that many viewers. Zemie, for example, is a straight up cheater that runs a button activated aimbot and wall hacks. He only averages a couple thousand viewers and is safe listed by a number of game companies.

Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by MSFT_Edging on Saturday September 07, 2024 @12:29PM (#41474759)
I personally stopped playing CS because my friends started using an alt-launcher to avoid cheaters, which added a whole layer of complication that made the game undesirable. Ban waves aren't perfect but in my limited experience, cheaters weren't that rampant, in others experience it became intolerable.
Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by talldayo on Saturday September 07, 2024 @12:18PM (#41474706)
That's not the gamers asking, though. In this instance they're being taken advantage of because they have maligned priorities, and being sold an over-the-top solution they don't need. You can still detect process injection, memory injection, sketchy inputs, HID fuckery, DRM cracking, host emulation and input macros without ever going kernel-level.

Truth be told, if the exploiter-class of your game would even consider a kernel-level exploit, your game is fucked from the start. Seriously, go Google "valorant cheating tool" and your results page will get flooded with options. You cannot pretend like it's entirely the audience's fault when there are axiomatically better ways to do anticheat that developers actively ignore.

Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by eezurr on Saturday September 07, 2024 @08:11AM (#41473464)
Go on steam and look at the recent reviews for older but still popular fps games. Gamers complain about cheaters constantly and will negatively review games cause of it
Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by choo-t on Saturday September 07, 2024 @08:51AM (#41473653)
They're demanding a way to handle or ban cheater, not requiring TPM, that's a non sequitur.
Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by brookst on Saturday September 07, 2024 @10:05AM (#41474015)
There is no technical way to prevent cheating in advance without secure boot. Gamers aren’t saying they want lots of cheaters but they should be banned eventually, they are saying they want to play games without cheaters.
Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by choo-t on Saturday September 07, 2024 @10:17AM (#41474068)
You cannot "prevent" cheating, you can at best mitigate it, it's a balance.

There plenty of way to mitigate cheating in game, but the game industry is focusing on the ones where they don't bear the cost and only the customer will (and this view is in part due to the model of F2P games, where banning cheater is useless as it doesn't cost them anything to create a new account).

Letting game developer having complete control and spying on the device playing the game is fine in a physical tournament were they provide the device, but it's insanity when it's the user own device in its home.

Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by user_7832 on Saturday September 07, 2024 @10:28AM (#41474124)
> There is no technical way to prevent cheating in advance without secure boot.

I'm not really sure I buy this. I can't really give a way that can guarantee no cheating but I know for example games like Genshin Impact run almost all the code (dmg calculation etc) server-side. Perhaps something that's an extension of Geforce Now might be the best "anti-cheat" technically speaking.

Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by jprete on Saturday September 07, 2024 @10:49AM (#41474220)
To run anti-cheat in that way, you need all game mechanics to be run server-side, and you need to not let the client ever know about something the player should not know - e.g. in a first-person shooter you need to run visibility and occlusion on the server too! Otherwise the cheating will take the form of seeing through walls and the like. This is going to boost the cost of the servers and probably any game subscription, and might lead to bandwidth or latency problems for players - just to avoid running any calculation that is relevant to game balance on player hardware.
Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by choo-t on Saturday September 07, 2024 @10:57AM (#41474260)
Well yeah, that's the correct way to run a server, don't send information you don't want the user to get.

But as you are pointing out, forcing client-side intrusive anti-cheat is cheaper, thus this as nothing to do about preventing cheating, but about reducing cost.

Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by Rohansi on Saturday September 07, 2024 @11:27AM (#41474422)
It's not just about cost. Theoretically yes, you shouldn't send information that you don't want users to get and abuse. However, in the context of games, this is not always possible because most games are realtime and need to tolerate network latency. There is no perfect solution - there will always be tradeoffs.

Ideally player A shouldn't be networked player B if there is a wall between them but what happens when they're at the edge of the wall? You don't want them to pop in so you need some tolerance. But having that tolerance would also allow cheaters to see players through walls near edges. Or your game design might require you to hear sounds on the other side of the wall (footsteps, gunshots, etc.) which allows cheats to infer what what may be behind the wall better than a person would.

Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by choo-t on Saturday September 07, 2024 @11:44AM (#41474528)
> Or your game design might require you to hear sounds on the other side of the wall (footsteps, gunshots, etc.) which allows cheats to infer what what may be behind the wall better than a person would.

Yes, and you cannot prevent this except in in-person tournament.

Any output send toward the player, even a faint audio queue could be analyzed, and use to trigger an action or display an overlay to the screen, and no amount of kernel-level stuff will prevent that, as you can do this outside of the computer running the game.

Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by dumbo-octopus on Saturday September 07, 2024 @11:04AM (#41474301)
The end state of your argument is the game runs entirely on hosted hardware and you pay for a license to stream the final rendered output to your monitor. This is already happening. Soon games won’t be able to be “bought” at all, you’ll just pay the server a number of dollars per hour for the privilege of them letting you use their hardware.

You will own nothing and like it.

Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by choo-t on Saturday September 07, 2024 @11:35AM (#41474484)
Making occlusion calculation sever-side during multiplayer have nothing to do with "owning" a game or not.

You can even do this calculation on community-run private server.

Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by dumbo-octopus on Saturday September 07, 2024 @11:52AM (#41474568)
If all surfaces are fully opaque, maybe. The second particle effects and volumetric effects and all sorts of advanced techniques play a role in actual gameplay, no. And that’s only for this one type of cheating.
Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by candiddevmike on Saturday September 07, 2024 @11:02AM (#41474290)
Back in my day we all played on private, community ran servers where you could easily vote to kick/ban folks, the server owner was your buddy, or you played with people you trust.

Now everything is matchmaking, private servers, live service and that sense of community is gone.

Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by card_zero on Saturday September 07, 2024 @11:38AM (#41474500)
Why isn't it still like that? Don't players want small communities?
Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by choo-t on Saturday September 07, 2024 @12:16PM (#41474695)
lot of thing happened, 6th gen consoles started a new way of using online games (no keyboard, no third party chat/vocal, no group chat out of game, no private server), then the industry pivoted away from private server to have more control on their games, then the whole F2P economy then GaaS took any agency out of players hands.
Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by reisse on Saturday September 07, 2024 @12:22PM (#41474721)
It's very hard to gather full teams (usually 10 persons) in a small communities. Public matchmaking gives an opportunity to start a game in a minute from clicking "play", regardless of how many people you have at hand right now.

Small communities still exist, it's just that vacant places are now filled with strangers.

Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by account42 on Monday September 09, 2024 @06:53AM (#41487213)
You can't effectively sell skins if the players are in control of the servers.
Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by beeboobaa3 on Saturday September 07, 2024 @11:00AM (#41474277)
There's no way secure boot totally prevents cheating, either. It just moves the goalpost a little, cheating will always be possible.
Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by _flux on Saturday September 07, 2024 @02:20PM (#41475436)
The goalpost just needs to be moved further than is economically interesting for cheaters in general to reach.

Perhaps secure boot by itself isn't enough, but I would imagine it would be a relatively large bump, when combined with a kernel-level anti-cheat. I presume such anti-cheats would e.g. disable the debugger access of game memory or otherwise debugging it, accessing the screen contents of the game or sending it artificial inputs.

What vectors remain? I guess at least finding bugs in the game, network traffic analysis, attempting MitM, capturing or even modifying actual data in the DRAM chips, using USB devices controlled by an external device that sees the game via a camera or HDMI capture.. All these can be plugged or require big efforts to make use of.

Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by 71bw on Monday September 09, 2024 @02:57AM (#41486084)
>Perhaps secure boot by itself isn't enough, but I would imagine it would be a relatively large bump, when combined with a kernel-level anti-cheat

VALORANT also adds TPM to the mix alongside SB and a kernel AC and yet is still trivially easy to cheat in as long as you have a driver you can use. Granted, it needs to be signed (=financially unreachable by a big part of the community), but if stubborn enough...

Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by RHSeeger on Saturday September 07, 2024 @09:38AM (#41473882)
You're being disingenuous here, or just missing the point. The point being made was the gamers are demanding game developers stop cheaters... and that secure boot (and related ways to lock down the computer) is one of the primary tools they know to use to do that.
Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by choo-t on Saturday September 07, 2024 @10:22AM (#41474099)
> The point being made was the gamers are demanding game developers stop cheaters... and that secure boot (and related ways to lock down the computer) is one of the primary tools they know to use to do that.

That's akin to saying that, as people want security on the street, mandatory strip search as soon as your exit your home is fair game.

Asking for a result doesn't give a blank-check for all the measures taken toward this result.

Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by RHSeeger on Saturday September 07, 2024 @11:34AM (#41474476)
I agree, but it doesn't change the fact that it's one of the primary reasons they're doing it. And "strip searches on the street" may not happen, but "Stop and Frisk" certainly is/was. And it was very much done because people were complaining about crime and safety. And it was done regardless of whether or not it was right, or effective, or even legal.
Re:Keyhole – Forge own Windows Store licenses by HideousKojima on Saturday September 07, 2024 @03:34PM (#41475913)
The real solution is letting players host their own servers and build their own communities of players they trust, but corps don't like giving that kind of freedom to users