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Re:DuckDuckGo Down by niutech on Thursday May 23, 2024 @09:32AM (#40454495)
So basically DDG is the wrapper for Bing Search, not an "independent" search company as they claim.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by Minor49er on Thursday May 23, 2024 @11:41AM (#40456113)
The industry term is "whitelabeling"

Sometimes it pays to pretend

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by elevatedastalt on Thursday May 23, 2024 @05:28PM (#40460115)
The legal term is "deception".
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by ThrowawayTestr on Thursday May 23, 2024 @06:32PM (#40460680)
Taking someone else's product and making it better is a useful service.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by arrowsmith on Friday May 24, 2024 @07:50AM (#40465187)
It's not deception if you tell people you're doing it.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by elevatedastalt on Friday May 24, 2024 @12:08PM (#40467541)
DDG massively oversells their own contribution to the search results.

If you look at their marketing material, they claim to "use a variety of sources, 500+ to bring you your search results". This is of course technically correct, but the truth is they are a relatively thin wrapper on Bing results.

So yes, I'd claim it is a form of deception.

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by victor_z on Thursday May 23, 2024 @09:35AM (#40454546)
Probably. But DDG at least offers more privacy, right?

Right?

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by niutech on Thursday May 23, 2024 @09:44AM (#40454651)
DDG has a history of breaching privacy: https://techcrunch.com/2022/05/24/ddg-microsoft-tracking-blo...

Meanwhile Brave Search or Mojeek provide more privacy, being independent at the same time.

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by berkes on Thursday May 23, 2024 @10:43AM (#40455359)
> Brave Search or Mojeek provide more privacy

Do they? Or have they just not had that "history" yet? I don't see anything fundamentally different in Brave that protects your and my privacy better than on DDG. I don't know Mojeek enough.

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by syklep on Thursday May 23, 2024 @11:53AM (#40456280)
Brave explicitly claims not to.[1] Brave also does not rely on Bing for results.

[1] https://search.brave.com/help/privacy-policy

Edit: mojeek claims the same.[2]

[2] https://www.mojeek.com/about/privacy/

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by kunley on Thursday May 23, 2024 @12:12PM (#40456535)
Last time i checked, Brave was insisting on convinving me to use certain cryptocurrency platforms and it was more intrusive with it than typical web ads, which seemed really twisted, as the same Brave claimed to give ad-free experience.

Are they still doing that?

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by NayamAmarshe on Thursday May 23, 2024 @01:07PM (#40457192)
They don't. The cryptocurrency options are all disabled by default and are opt-in.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by somenameforme on Thursday May 23, 2024 @01:30PM (#40457510)
It literally never did that. There's some crypto wallet button that you get in the address bar that you can disable with a right click, and that's pretty much the extent of it. All crypto and other related functionality is completely opt-in.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by decide1000 on Thursday May 23, 2024 @02:49PM (#40458396)
Yes, those ads are still part of Brave.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by arrowsmith on Friday May 24, 2024 @07:55AM (#40465226)
What ads? I'm writing this on Brave and I've never seen any ads. Are we talking about the same browser?
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by niutech on Thursday May 23, 2024 @03:30PM (#40458903)
I was talking about Brave Search (https://search.brave.com), not Brave browser. Seaech doesn't promote crypto.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by arrowsmith on Friday May 24, 2024 @07:54AM (#40465220)
No, they're not. I've been using Brave almost since its inception and I still have no idea what its cryptocurrency features are. Nor have I ever seen an intrusive ad from Brave, or anywhere else since Brave has an ad blocker built in.

Why does this same conversation happen every time Brave is mentioned on HN? Have any of the people complaining about Brave's crypto-whatever "problem" ever actually used it?

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by Timshel on Thursday May 23, 2024 @11:49AM (#40456227)
That only concern the browser not the search engine ?

HN discussion at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31490515

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by ipqk on Thursday May 23, 2024 @12:08PM (#40456490)
Cause Brave CEO, Brendan Eich, is such a swell guy.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by red_admiral on Friday May 24, 2024 @05:47AM (#40464533)
That is true, but it's referring to their android browser app not their search engine, if I've read correctly.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by kornhole on Thursday May 23, 2024 @09:56AM (#40454794)
Yes it is one of many metasearch sites and not actually a search engine. Other engines include Kagi, Yandex, Brave, Mojeek, Quant, and something called Google.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by gregw134 on Thursday May 23, 2024 @11:52AM (#40456260)
Pretty sure kagi is a bing wrapper too, although they blend in some other datasets.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by miloignis on Thursday May 23, 2024 @12:40PM (#40456855)
Kagi's main results come from Google actually. (edit: see https://help.kagi.com/kagi/why-kagi/kagi-vs-google.html - Kagi really shows how good Google could be, since it's mostly using the Google index and then doing user-friendly things instead of user-unfriendly things on top)
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by iamthirsty on Thursday May 23, 2024 @01:07PM (#40457200)
While I'm not disagreeing that Kagi's main results from Google, the source you linked doesn't specifically say that. Just says:

> "Heck, it even enables Kagi to exist!"

> "We’re grateful to have access to Google's search technology and infrastructure for Kagi."

So I wonder what the actual results mix is. Like I said, could be mainly from Google.

Edit: Added additional quote.

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by bbarnett on Thursday May 23, 2024 @08:58PM (#40461781)
I could be wrong, but I think they're playing to their early adopter audience, that being tech workers.

Google is terrible at tech searches, without verbatim and now "web" search. Kagi spending work in this area, and indexing this area, might bear good fruit.

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by pphysch on Thursday May 23, 2024 @01:27PM (#40457455)
I firmly believe Google will release Premium Search at some point. They did it quite successfully with YouTube...

One wonders if the popular narrative around crappification of Search is partially self-induced to prime consumers for premiumization.

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by niutech on Thursday May 23, 2024 @10:03AM (#40454878)
Quant also relies on Bing API.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by decide1000 on Thursday May 23, 2024 @02:49PM (#40458384)
Quant or Qwant? Qwant does not rely on the Bing api but has its own index.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by niutech on Thursday May 23, 2024 @03:28PM (#40458875)
Qwant, sorry. On Wikiledia they mention Bing multiple times: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qwant

Qwant was also out of service today due to Bing API outage: https://www.gamingdeputy.com/bing-outage-exposes-qwant-and-d...

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by mardifoufs on Thursday May 23, 2024 @03:12PM (#40458721)
Are you sure about that? It doesn't completely rely on it but didn't it use bing as one of the search providers? I'm probably completely wrong and my info is outdated but I'm asking because it would be pretty special (in a good way!) if they use their own index exclusively.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by pythux on Friday May 24, 2024 @04:22AM (#40464122)
Qwant was not usable yesterday during the Bing outage so that pretty much shows they cannot function without Bing (even if they do have some auxiliary indexes of some sort)
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by danielcampos93 on Thursday May 23, 2024 @02:11PM (#40457946)
More countries have nukes than companies have actual indexes
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by ncruces on Friday May 24, 2024 @11:07AM (#40466985)
But do more countries actually build them?
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by Zambyte on Thursday May 23, 2024 @02:12PM (#40457956)
As someone who uses Kagi, I think it is absolutely not accurate to say they are a search engine rather than a meta search engine. Most of their results come from the other engines you listed.

https://help.kagi.com/kagi/search-details/search-sources.htm...

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by worksonmine on Thursday May 23, 2024 @02:46PM (#40458341)
Interesting, I always had the impression they had their own index. Shame.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by Zambyte on Thursday May 23, 2024 @03:47PM (#40459083)
As per the first sentence on that page, they do. It's just not their only source, and from my experience it is far from the main source. You can see "% of unique Kagi results" on each search; these are the results from their own index.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by openplatypus on Thursday May 23, 2024 @04:53PM (#40459777)
Mojeek has its very own index.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by 4ggr0 on Friday May 24, 2024 @03:28AM (#40463802)
Never heard of Mojeek and tested it right now, surprised how fast it feels! Going to use it as my default for a while.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by balder1991 on Friday May 24, 2024 @09:09AM (#40465851)
Just tried it and it led me to a 403 error page: “Sorry your network appears to be sending automated queries so we can't process your search at this time.”
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by wazoox on Friday May 24, 2024 @03:41AM (#40463878)
Qwant is also a meta engine, and was also down yesterday.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by pythux on Friday May 24, 2024 @04:21AM (#40464114)
Qwant also relies on Bing (and was not usable during yesterday's incident)
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by autoexec on Thursday May 23, 2024 @12:42PM (#40456897)
And Bing lifts their results from Google (https://www.wired.com/2011/02/bing-copies-google/) so in the end it seems like the internet only has one search engine.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by somenameforme on Thursday May 23, 2024 @01:26PM (#40457453)
Brave Search [1] is 100% independent. There's also Yandex [2] which also works excellently, but is biased towards more Russian language results. The image search is second to none though.

[1] - https://search.brave.com/

[2] - https://yandex.com/

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by swiftcoder on Friday May 24, 2024 @05:21AM (#40464413)
Brave search is only very recently independent, and not, as far as I can tell, 100% of the way there. While they are building out their own index, they only recently stopped augmenting their own results with Bing, and are still augmenting them with Google.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by pythux on Friday May 24, 2024 @06:05AM (#40464594)
That is not fully accurate. Brave Search is fully independent - the last dependency on Bing was dropped more than a year ago, but even at the time the dependency would not have prevented Brave Search from functioning during an event like yesterday’s Bing outage - it would have resulted in a drop of quality on a subset of complicated queries, though.

The “augmentation with Google” that you mention is an optional feature that only works in Brave browser and doesn’t mean Brave Search is less independent than in other browsers (but it might mean that the quality is increased for some queries; or at least closer to Google results in these cases).

I think when talking about independence it is important to make a distinction between “dependent” which means “cannot work at all if the provider goes down” (e.g. yesterday’s outage) and “dependent” meaning that the service would continue to operate but with some amount of degradation of service. It’s a spectrum. Yesterday we saw that some services could not operate at all when Bing was down.

Disclaimer: I work at Brave.

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by bloblaw on Thursday May 23, 2024 @01:15PM (#40457300)
That article is from 2011. I can imagine that in 13 years this may no longer be true.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by pphysch on Thursday May 23, 2024 @01:24PM (#40457409)
What would lead you to believe that in the last 13 years MS would make the titanic investment of reimplementing their (alleged) Google-based search backend?

Given the trajectory of Bing this seems unlikely.

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by adamomada on Thursday May 23, 2024 @03:37PM (#40458961)
For me it’s because DDG (aka Bing) results are vastly different than Google results. I use the !g and !s bangs often.

I think you’re making a huge assumption that nothing would change in 13 years!

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by politelemon on Thursday May 23, 2024 @01:16PM (#40457315)
Makes me wonder, does this mean Bing is the Chromium or Firefox of search?
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by barbazoo on Thursday May 23, 2024 @01:14PM (#40457291)
There's also Kagi
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by wannacboatmovie on Thursday May 23, 2024 @12:43PM (#40456922)
Wait till you find out who makes some store-brand food.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by SOLAR_FIELDS on Friday May 24, 2024 @03:20AM (#40463744)
If they branded themselves as what it is, anonymized bing search with better features, I would be totally fine with that. As is, even if they don’t go with that branding, I have no problem using the service under those terms.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by red_admiral on Friday May 24, 2024 @05:45AM (#40464526)
"Bing but without copilot" alone would be a product worth having. But I think DDG has a few more things on top of that, like the `!bang` stuff and the bit where they don't send tracking data on you to Microsoft.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by arrowsmith on Friday May 24, 2024 @07:50AM (#40465183)
I really don't understand why any technically literate person would be impressed by the "!bang" stuff on DDG. You know your browser already provides this feature, right? Just configure some custom search keywords in your search settings. What does DDG offer that's better than this?
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by afavour on Friday May 24, 2024 @09:54AM (#40466300)
How do I set that up on iOS Safari?
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by banish-m4 on Saturday May 25, 2024 @12:03AM (#40472567)
Exactly. You can't except by setting DDG as the default search engine. Chrome, Brave, and FF for iOS also don't directly support this sort of feature either.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by opan on Friday May 24, 2024 @10:13AM (#40466495)
They already set them up for a ton of sites, though, and often you can guess your way to a bang on the first try. I have only looked at the actual list once or twice. Plus it seems to match the closest one in cases of using one that doesn't exist. I can also go to a machine that isn't my own and take advantage of them there right away. I heavily use the quickmarks in qutebrowser, but also the ddg bangs. I just hit O for open in new tab and can put in a bang right there.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by malicka on Saturday May 25, 2024 @10:31PM (#40479385)
Just to emphasize: When opan says ton, they mean a TON. Around 13 thousand, if I remember correctly.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by bluGill on Friday May 24, 2024 @11:55AM (#40467431)
They proxy the !bang things so that whoever provides the search gets less info about who you are. Less isn't nothing, but it is still better than your browser can do without the proxy.
Re:DuckDuckGo Down by jjulius on Friday May 24, 2024 @11:57AM (#40467445)
>Just configure some custom search keywords in your search settings. What does DDG offer that's better than this?

Pre-configured keywords could be considered better than manually-configured keywords.

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by npteljes on Saturday May 25, 2024 @06:26AM (#40474037)
>Just configure

I might not be impressed, but as I get older, I skew toward out of the box experience over configuration. I rather learn, and then apply that knowledge everywhere the thing is used, than configure, and lug my configuration around. Therefore, I value an opinionated feature like the bangs in DDG, even though as a professional, I know that there are many alternatives to it. If I know how to do it with DDG, I can use it everywhere I load DDG: my personal computer, my work computer, my phone's browser, my phone's other browser, the browser in the VM, the browser in the VM in the cloud, on the freshly installed computer with its default settings, everywhere.

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by mdp2021 on Friday May 24, 2024 @06:22AM (#40464680)
https://duckduckgo.com/duckduckgo-help-pages/results/sources...

> # Where do DuckDuckGo search results come from? // Most of our search result pages feature one or more Instant Answers. To deliver Instant Answers on specific topics, DuckDuckGo leverages many sources, including specialized sources like Sportradar and crowd-sourced sites like Wikipedia. We also maintain our own crawler (DuckDuckBot) and many indexes to support our results. Of course, we have more traditional links and images in our search results too, which we largely source from Bing. Our focus is synthesizing all these sources to create a superior search experience

Re:DuckDuckGo Down by niutech on Tuesday May 28, 2024 @09:08AM (#40500384)