News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by adrr on Friday April 12, 2024 @04:53PM (#40017534)
What is the problem with news? Why aren't people willing to pay for it?
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by philipkglass on Friday April 12, 2024 @05:14PM (#40017736)
Facts are not copyrightable, so the meat of a story spreads quickly and with very little money changing hands. One subscriber to the Los Angeles Times can legally and immediately share the factual essence of an article via social media, personal web site, email, or anything else. From there it can be reshared indefinitely. Only people who really want to read the original reporting in full will pay to subscribe to the LA Times.

There used to be regional/temporal barriers in place before the Web was popular; newspapers had geographically limited distribution and it took time to print a new edition. One newspaper "scooping" another by one day was all it took to get people to buy the one-day-earlier publication. Also, 20th century newspapers collected significant revenue from classified advertising, people buying the paper just to get a weather forecast, and other kinds of information distribution that really didn't have anything to do with investigative news. The Web unbundled all that (weather.gov, Craigslist, etc.) and the only remaining strength of newspapers was producing original reporting. Which, unfortunately, was never all that profitable on its own even before you get to the "facts are not copyrightable" issue that I mentioned in my first paragraph.

Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by nickpsecurity on Friday April 12, 2024 @09:00PM (#40019368)
“Facts are not copyrightable”

Does anyone have any good pages on that which go into how to extract facts without copyright infringement? And for purposes of creating independent, educational works from those facts?

Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by Alpha3031 on Saturday April 13, 2024 @01:06AM (#40020658)
Sure. Copyright is something that Wikipedia has to deal with, so there's a guide for contributors (which also links to the article on the relevant legal doctrine) here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Close_paraphrasing#S...
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by bawolff on Friday April 12, 2024 @05:38PM (#40017953)
The value proposition in the internet age is too low to demand the price neccessary to support it. This created a race to the bottom in order to keep the lights on. This further degraded the value of the product. This caused people to value it less, and so on.

The end result is reputable news sites became clickbait and eventually people stopped caring.

There is still a market for in depth journalism, and we see a rise in that sort of things. There are plenty of youtube channels doing documentary-like videos on current events. That is journalism.

The journalism that is dying is the stuff concentrating on breaking news. If its shallow its outcompeted by twitter. If its higher quality but still racing to the headline, its outcompeted by wikipedia. The fact is the competitors to breaking news journalism are cheaper and higher quality.

Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by jrpt on Friday April 12, 2024 @06:37PM (#40018389)
I think a lot of people are willing to pay for journalism, but it has to be journalism above and beyond the basic info that you can get for free online. The basic news is commoditized and freely available online, and that's what a lot of traditional newspapers are competing with. However, paid industry journalism like The Information is something people are willing to pay for - or get their companies to pay for at least.

Also, I think traditional newspapers should position themselves so they're not competing with the lowest common denominator of basic info, however due to cutbacks, most newspapers are in essence not doing very much in depth journalism anymore, which means they are unfortunately positioning themselves as competing with any other source of news.

Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by CM30 on Friday April 12, 2024 @06:11PM (#40018200)
In simple terms; lots of competition and much of it is free. If you want basic breaking news, it's all over social media (often from the news sites themselves). If you want sports, tech, gaming, music, entertainment, art or other hobby style news, it's literally on two million websites and forums and YouTube channels specifically made for that one topic, and usually done better than in a newspaper.

So while you could say a decent chunk of the replacement content is worse than what traditional news outlets could offer, it's at least free and exists by the bucket load, meaning the incentive for paying for it is nonexistent for most of the population. Meanwhile the more niche stuff is both free and done better elsewhere, so RIP anyone making money off that anymore.

To make things tougher, getting advertisers to pay for it is becoming a lost cause too, since again, they can advertise in places where metrics and tracking options are better. They'll get way more bang for their buck on social media than they will trying to market on a news site or in a classifieds section or what not.

Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by reissbaker on Friday April 12, 2024 @05:05PM (#40017643)
Journalism quality has tanked, and social media acts as some degree of (free+fast) competition, furthering the death spiral.
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by dylan604 on Friday April 12, 2024 @05:43PM (#40018006)
To expand, journalists used to actually investigate which took time which means it took money so that the story released had lots of corroborating sources, scrutinized by editors, and then released as a complete story. That might have meant things like actually interviewing people, requesting documents from places, or visiting the places in question.

Today, it is just a bunch of people collecting tweets of random people on the interwebs. Race to publish before competition means there's no time for editorial review of simple things like grammar and coherent thoughts let alone accuracy, so lots of FUD can be spread very quickly as "news".

Those well thought out articles are also considered too long and boring and get reposted on socials as TL;DR as if it were their own thoughts.

We used to make fun of the microwave generation with "I want it now" type comments. Now, it's I need it in less than 140chars, or I'm scrolling past it.

The death spiral you describe is like a train wreck that you can do nothing about.

Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by whycome on Friday April 12, 2024 @06:15PM (#40018229)
The most infuriating thing is that an article can take absolutely any stance on an issue simply by cherry picking tweets to go along with it.

News has become a weird kind of curation market. And the funny thing about this payment arrangement that publishers want is that they are not paying any of those tweeters who may be breaking the news or themselves curating the info.

Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by dylan604 on Friday April 12, 2024 @06:53PM (#40018481)
Why would you pay someone for a tweet? They posted it for free. Collecting tweets isn't journalism. Asking the user for more than 140 chars about what they are witnessing along with multiple others would then be closer to journalism. Tweets are just people self identifying who journalists could be interviewing. The interview allows for follow up to the tweet.
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by EasyMark on Saturday April 13, 2024 @12:50PM (#40024319)
If I see tweets in any article other than tweets from the people that the article is about, I will throw that news site in the dust bin. Using tweets as evidence or as anything important tells me that news site is definitely in a death spiral. I think the only place I put up with it is on the local news and even then I'm gritting my teeth.
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by paulcole on Saturday April 13, 2024 @12:24AM (#40020481)
> To expand, journalists used to actually investigate which took time which means it took money so that the story released had lots of corroborating sources, scrutinized by editors, and then released as a complete story. That might have meant things like actually interviewing people, requesting documents from places, or visiting the places in question.

This was only desired and seen as useful and interesting when people had nothing else to do.

Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by ca7 on Friday April 12, 2024 @05:01PM (#40017600)
I'm not willing to pay for someone else's slanted takes. There are websites that provide that for free (e.g. Reddit).
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by moffkalast on Saturday April 13, 2024 @04:55AM (#40021614)
Yeah lots of people don't really want to just read the news, they want to discuss it. Most people on reddit have stopped opening news article links entirely since there's always a comment or two that summarize it without having to wade through the sludge of ads and autoplaying videos, or worse, wasting your time reading the first sentence and then getting hit by a paywall. News sites are one of the most user hostile places on the internet.
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by scelerat on Friday April 12, 2024 @06:22PM (#40018276)
I think very few people ever "paid for news" -- the newsroom of most publications have always been highly subsidized by advertising and classifieds, and perhaps newstand sales. Google (and others) and Craigslist (and others) quickly dominated advertising and classifieds in the early 2000s, and I can't remember the last time I saw someone reading a newspaper on a train
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by jrpt on Friday April 12, 2024 @06:46PM (#40018442)
The circulation subscriptions were a substantial part of their revenue, however you're right that ads were even larger. I don't think it's fair to say few people ever paid for it though. Subscriptions were important too.
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by bombcar on Friday April 12, 2024 @06:16PM (#40018239)
Because as much as people like to pretend different, news is a form of entertainment.

Everyone loves reading stories that confirm everything they already know.

Big real news spreads like wildfire, but news as it is consumed is entertainment.

Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by aetherson on Friday April 12, 2024 @05:02PM (#40017605)
Because people don't value it.

I mean, seriously, that's the reason.

Back when newspapers were healthy, basically there was all this stuff that was bundled with the actual news that was of more immediate utility to people: classifieds, movie reviews, comics, coupons. And there was less competition for people's leisure time.

News is now in a very competitive leisure time landscape and is debundled from stuff that's of high value, and most people just don't care that much about news. They'll read it when it's around but they won't pay for it. The ones who are willing to pay for it mostly just subscribe to the New York Times because in a nationalized news environment why not go for the biggest producer.

Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by bawolff on Friday April 12, 2024 @06:39PM (#40018400)
I think that is a part of it, but its not just that.

News provied two services in the old days: access and filtering.

Back in the day you couldn't easily get things straight from the horses mouth, now you can just go to their website.

If you did have direct access in the old days, it was all way too much. There was no way to filter to 10-minutes worth of top goings on. Now a days you can just look at what is upvoted and stop once you have read enough.

Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by internetter on Friday April 12, 2024 @05:32PM (#40017920)
Completely agree with all this, though my take away is that there's a big vicious cycle of adblockers and paywalls where they keep getting worse. I can't afford to subscribe to every newspaper I read. All the local (and smaller national) papers should unionize and make one subscription for something like $20 a month
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by adrr on Friday April 12, 2024 @05:59PM (#40018124)
Isn't that apple news+?
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by whycome on Friday April 12, 2024 @06:17PM (#40018245)
The publishers didn't do that and it's Apple-only.
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by internetter on Friday April 12, 2024 @06:19PM (#40018257)
And you still see ads
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by paulcole on Saturday April 13, 2024 @12:26AM (#40020490)
There’s nothing wrong with paying for content and still seeing ads.
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by teeray on Saturday April 13, 2024 @01:02AM (#40020640)
There is everything wrong with that if that wasn’t the deal to begin with. You’re paying for information and they’re deliberately injecting noise in the signal. It’s degrading the quality of what you’re paying for without a commensurate adjustment in the rate.
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by paulcole on Saturday April 13, 2024 @08:31AM (#40022735)
Correct me if I’m wrong but Apple never advertised Apple News+ as ad-free.
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by teeray on Saturday April 13, 2024 @12:59AM (#40020617)
> most people just don't care that much about news

I stopped caring about what was happening on the world stage in 2022, and it has been sublime. I hear about the big things from friends and random folks, and it gives some instant conversation starters (“oh no, I hadn’t heard about that”). The only news I actually care about is local news, and I skim the newsletter my (small) city publishes on Fridays.

Given that, there is zero value provided to me by traditional media publishers. I say this as someone who gets NYT, WSJ, WaPo, and FT for free through work. I don’t use them, because I’d rather spend my time doing something else.

No judgement here though—if reading the paper is your thing and you like staying informed, that’s great and I fully support it. Just offering my perspective.

Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by devjab on Saturday April 13, 2024 @03:12AM (#40021169)
I’m not sure I agree that news is more competitive now within its own business? (I’m not sure what the Danish branche is in English), but rather that there are just so many things competing for people’s attention in general. With SoMe being actively designed to be addictive through various algorithms I think it’s only natural that people spend more of their time on Instagram, TikTok, Reddit or even HackerNews. I think that is time that a lot of people would’ve otherwise spend on news.

Add to this the introduction of terrible news media. The spam and click bait media, where you get the articles for free but the articles you get are basically worse than what you’d find anywhere else because they are most there to generate revenue from advertising. Stuff that gives “traditional” news media a very bad image. Further add the media platforms which are now straight up political propaganda, which some always where, but now they are owned by very few people and push very divisive agendas which is a little different from the past where they were more inline with each other and the “general” aristocracy rather than a few billionaires/oligarchs and you gain the general media perception even more. Both are rightfully so.

In a sense you get what you pay for though. If you’re not paying you’re not getting quality news. You can see this in Danish news very clearly, where only a handful of news papers still do actual critical journalism and the rest mainly do opinions or click-bait articles on current events that you might as well read on Facebook. Not because Facebook does anything particularly in that department but because the contractors who sell stories and pictures to the “free” news media typically also post their content elsewhere for increased revenue on their part.

As far as going to the “biggest” most “cultural” news media I totally agree with you. In my country people read Weekend Avisen, and then add one of the more politically inclined subscription papers based on their views. But basically it boils down to thee papers, one that is slightly more conservative (which in Scandinavian/American optics would make it almost socialist), one that is left-leaning (again, very socialist in American optics) and one that is based on Christianity (but extremely moderate, as in pro abortion and gay marriage).

Aside from that there are two “localised” papers which either focus heavily on Copenhagen or the part of our country which is called Jylland.

Almost none of these papers would be alive without government subsidies. Because the only two papers which actually makes money are Weekendavisen (our NYT) and the Christian paper which doesn’t actually make money but is subsidised by various Christian groups.

Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by lupire on Saturday April 13, 2024 @07:46AM (#40022452)
It's a collective action problem. To get good news you need a pay a lot, or have a lot of people pay.
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by CivBase on Friday April 12, 2024 @07:48PM (#40018836)
Many people are willing to pay for news. Enough that it will keep coming in excess. Just not enough to sustain the scale and production values of yesteryear.

Plenty of independent journalists are out there doing just fine and even some of the big outlets have adjusted effectively. But in the internet age we don't need hundreds of outlets all reporting on the same stories 24/7 - especially when most of those stories have no impact on the viewers/readers.

The market is simply adjusting and the old establishment is going down kicking and screaming.

Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by imzadi on Friday April 12, 2024 @05:00PM (#40017591)
I don't think the issue is that people aren't willing to pay for it. The problem is, there aren't currently good options for paying for it. If I go to a news site and it is paywalled, I just leave. I am not going to subscribe to every single newspaper. If I could easily pay for today's paper (not an individual news story or a full subscription) without giving up all my persona info, I would probably buy 2 - 3 papers a day from various sources.
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by alistairSH on Friday April 12, 2024 @06:00PM (#40018132)
$40/year for the WaPo and you can pay with PayPal or Apple. You don’t give them any more money than any other online vendor.
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by bawolff on Friday April 12, 2024 @06:43PM (#40018428)
That price point seems high.

For example, Netflix is $84/year. Netflix content seems a lot more valuable then simply twice what WaPo provides.

Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by lupire on Saturday April 13, 2024 @07:51AM (#40022487)
It is high because most people don't want to pay for a share of news.

They'd rather watch TV, and not even the best TV. If you want the best, you need to pay for Max and Disney and Apple and Amazon and the rest.

Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by bawolff on Saturday April 13, 2024 @03:36PM (#40025409)
And if you want the best news you have to pay for more than WaPo.

Besides, if you actually like to read why would you be buying washington post? People who like to read usually aren't going into 5 minute long shallow articles, they are getting a book on the topic.

Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by dhfbshfbu4u3 on Saturday April 13, 2024 @08:42AM (#40022785)
I guess if you don’t read that is true.
Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by alistairSH on Saturday April 13, 2024 @03:01PM (#40025209)
That’s the plan with ads. If you don’t want to sit through annoying ads, it’s $180/year.

Either way, producing quality journalism costs money. And I’m ok paying a reasonable fee for it. :shrug:

Re:Google threatens to cut off news after California propose... by bawolff on Saturday April 13, 2024 @03:38PM (#40025418)
Yes, but creating tv/movie is much much more expensive.