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Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by chpatrick on Sunday April 07, 2024 @06:05PM (#39964374)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Martians_(scientists)

There was an incredible cadre of scientists from Hungary in the early 20th century. Sadly they were exiled by fascism.

Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by javajosh on Sunday April 07, 2024 @06:54PM (#39964676)
One wonders what fascism could have done had it not alienated intellectuals. But one also wonders if that alienation is core to fascism, even definitive. Fascism is notoriously hard to define, but "alienates the best thinkers" seems like a good litmus test.
Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by tonyarkles on Sunday April 07, 2024 @07:46PM (#39964934)
Well... for curiosity-sake I clicked through the list of scientists on the Martians page. Every single one of them has Jewish ancestry. So while fascism more generally (right-wing nationalist authoritarianism) doesn't strictly prohibit intellectuals, World War II fascism alienated these folks because of their heritage.

There were still lots of smart people in Nazi Germany, as evidenced by Operation Paperclip which brought ~1,600 Nazi scientists over to the US to work on rockets and help the US fight the USSR in the Cold War and space race.

Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by hattmall on Monday April 08, 2024 @12:50AM (#39966302)
>Every single one of them has Jewish ancestry.

Well, yes, as that's the defining characteristic of the group and why they moved to the United States and became known as the martians.

Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by epolanski on Monday April 08, 2024 @05:40AM (#39967949)
Anti semitism is not a core or a common ingredient of what we historically define as fascist governments.

Spain under Franco and Portugal under Salazar did not persecute Jews, in fact allowed them safe passage from Vichy France.

Italy really turned antisemitic after more than a decade with the alliance with Germany to appease Hitler mostly. There's a nice book on the topic, in Italian, "Mussolini Razzista Riluttante" by Antonio Spinosa.

Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by nonrandomstring on Sunday April 07, 2024 @07:50PM (#39964953)
I like the rawness of your thinking/questions.

> alienation is core to fascism

Fascism, a neighbour of Futurism, idolises technology, of only for its semiotic power. But then so did Soviet Communism. Stalin executed all the "bourgeois engineers" and Bolsheviks who built the industrial engine of the CCCP. Alternatively, the great leap forward in China and Pol Pot in Cambodia both rounded up the thinkers, teachers and engineers first.

So I don't think it's unique to fascism. What is common?

Seems it's a hallmark of the treachery of totalitarianism. Tyrants fear but use intellectuals. They need actual smart people to gain power, but then who is more threatening than people who know how the system works because they built it for you? So they are always betrayed. Consider Oppenheimer. Many of the great scientists and artists are put out to pasture once they've done what's useful for the party.

> "alienates the best thinkers" seems like a good litmus test.

Almost the whole Frankfurt School were Jewish intellectuals who fled to America.

I've written (probably in Digital Vegan) on how the Silicon Valley Billionaires, once they've built their "Social Media Digital Utopia" - a pageant of vanity, fear and cybernetic governance - would simply dispose of the coders (perhaps not as directly as Stalin). Maybe an indicator of that came early with the layoffs when some got a bit too moist about "AI". I think they hope that "AI" will be the way to pull up the ladder, leaving no challenging class.

Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by zztop44 on Sunday April 07, 2024 @08:07PM (#39965039)
Thank you for this reminder to buy Digital Vegan. I’ve had an open tab on the checkout page for about a year now.
Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by nonrandomstring on Sunday April 07, 2024 @08:33PM (#39965175)
Thanks. Wish I could go back in time and rewrite some parts - it's one of those "needed to write it as a way of thinking" projects. Better to follow us on the Cybershow now. PM me there and I'l send you a DRM free ebook if you like.
Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by nonrandomstring on Monday April 08, 2024 @04:51AM (#39967611)
Some wannabe treacherous tyrants didn't like that being said out loud.
Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by ThomasBHickey on Sunday April 07, 2024 @08:49PM (#39965238)
A friend of mine wrote a book about what happened in Germany: Scientists under Hitler : politics and the physics community in the Third Reich by Alan Beyerchen. I'm about a third of the way through it, but they mixed politics with the physical sciences to a remarkable degree, driving away many of the best people and isolating German scientists.
Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by digdugdirk on Sunday April 07, 2024 @09:04PM (#39965307)
Out of curiosity, did they start by politicizing the social sciences first?
Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by vasco on Sunday April 07, 2024 @10:03PM (#39965587)
Social "sciences" are always political because they are mostly not science and so is easy to co-opt them. Math doesn't have different results depending on countries political system but social sciences do - tells you all you need to know.
Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by defrost on Sunday April 07, 2024 @09:20PM (#39965393)
Is that a well formed question?

Of Comte, Durkheim, Marx, and Weber, the people credited with the establishment of "modern" (pre WWI & WWII) sciences of society all were "political" philosphers | thinkers that looked at the behaviour of societies.

Max Weber (1864 – 1920) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weber was a German of some influence, and the pre and inbetween World War periods were a time of intense political debate in France, Germany, and surrounds.

Who are "they" to whom you refer, and what is "political" as opposed to "social" ?

Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by kjellsbells on Sunday April 07, 2024 @10:01PM (#39965578)
You mean the Nazis? Yes. (As did the Stalinists in their totalitarian state at the same time).

One might guess (and its just that, a guess) that such regimes target the social sciences first because such departments (eg economics, political studies) are adjacent to live politics, the regime's people think they understand them and can make contributions (in reality, trying to take control of course) and of course because the hard sciences require the payment of a hard tax of mathematical skills to say anything useful, which most political hacks do not have.

Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by medo-bear on Monday April 08, 2024 @08:00AM (#39968811)
Every form of government targets in some way the social "sciences". Immagine being in a government where the majority of your social scientists are calling for your removal. Same applies to religious institutions and media
Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by dzolob on Sunday April 07, 2024 @09:15PM (#39965368)
I wonder where in the fascist scale is an atomic bomb that actually got thrown to innocent people.
Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by CamperBob2 on Sunday April 07, 2024 @09:58PM (#39965559)
Bomb somebody else's harbor next time, kthxbai
Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by sgregnt on Sunday April 07, 2024 @09:42PM (#39965498)
I wonder if writing needs to update the innocence definition. By that measure, it is very easy to claim one.
Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by krapp on Monday April 08, 2024 @07:31AM (#39968626)
No, we don't need to update the definition to retroactively legitimize the mass murder of civilians in warfare. The people killed by the atomic bombs were innocent under any sane definition of the term, and the cruelty behind that was intentional. The US wanted to impart to the Japanese that the violent suffering and death of every man, woman and child would be the cost of anything less than their immediate and unconditional surrender.
Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by CamperBob2 on Monday April 08, 2024 @03:26PM (#39972862)
Nukes bad, mmkay. Would you have preferred to learn that lesson 6 years later in Korea at the hundred-kiloton level, or 25 years later in Vietnam at the megaton level?

And would you have preferred that Japan be left to the mercies of the Soviets, turning them into what North Korea and Cuba are today?

Childish naïveté, world wars, and postwar geopolitics don't mix.

Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by krapp on Monday April 08, 2024 @07:18PM (#39974695)
The only coherent part of your comment is the outdated South Park reference. Sit back down in your armchair, general.
Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by globalnode on Sunday April 07, 2024 @09:34PM (#39965464)
the fascists distrust thinking that doesnt mirror their own -- the whole "youre either with us or against us" mentality that ironically we see all around the western world right now
Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by medo-bear on Monday April 08, 2024 @08:02AM (#39968825)
Only a very stable society is capable of tolerating dissent (in fact it is much better to tolerate than to make martyrs). Once it becomes unstable all bets are off
Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by tpm on Monday April 08, 2024 @06:28AM (#39968234)
It's not hard to define, it's an extreme version of "us vs them", divide the society into explicit in- and outgroups and kill the outgroup, repeat forever. Also kill everyone who opposes this, even if a member of in-group.

So it's just a matter of time an "intellectual", or any individual really, says or does something that will be used as a pretext to accuse them of not being a good enough member of in-group (this will earn the accuser status as a guardian of purity). Soon enough the society is full of people accusing others and also of those that want to appease "the authorities" by proposing the most extreme ways of purifying and enhancing the in-group. It's easy to see this is not the best environment for seekers of truth.

Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by michaelt on Monday April 08, 2024 @07:21AM (#39968571)
It's hard to get widespread agreement on a definition, because many political groups have a vested interest in expanding or reducing the definition.
Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by wslh on Sunday April 07, 2024 @09:10PM (#39965327)
Just Fascism? They would have been exterminated. This subthread shows a lot of ignorance about what we are talking about. Just watch [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_(1999_film)

Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by chpatrick on Monday April 08, 2024 @07:51AM (#39968760)
I'm not sure what your point is. I'm from Hungary and know the history well. Fascism happened before it was called by that name.
Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by wslh on Monday April 08, 2024 @11:04AM (#39970503)
Do you know the story of the Hungarian Jews?
Re:What John von Neumann Did at Los Alamos by chpatrick on Monday April 08, 2024 @11:20AM (#39970640)
Yes, of course.