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Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by earthnail on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @11:56AM (#39456274)
The one thing I still wonder is whether SMRs could create a security nightmare.

Every nuclear power plant is a fantastic target for terrorists. Transports of nuclear waste are a fantastic target, too.

I read once that the UK has many nuclear waste trains driving all the time, most of them empty, just to make it hard to guess which one to hit. (I assume other western countries have the same system). That kind of security doesn’t scale well.

How do you protect infrastructure with many SMRs?

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by gadders on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @12:15PM (#39456562)
Hire more of these people?

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/civil-nuclear-co...

"The Civil Nuclear Constabulary (CNC) is the armed police force in charge of protecting civil nuclear sites and nuclear materials in England and Scotland."

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by naasking on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @12:01PM (#39456357)
Switch to a thorium fuel cycle so virtually all of the fissionable material is spent, rather than 90+% of it remaining in the waste.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by perlgeek on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @12:10PM (#39456501)
Somehow, Thorium has been the future of nuclear reactors about as long as fusion has been. It's almost a running gag.

(And yes, I know that there are concrete plans for commercial Thorium fission reactors, in a way that aren't for fusion, but still no fully-operating, commercial reactor, afaict).

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @02:42PM (#39458508)
That's not really saying much given the number of new nuclear reactors of any fuel source the west has built in the current century. You have to build something in order to build something that runs on Thorium.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by LorenPechtel on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @01:57PM (#39457939)
Just use breeder reactors.

Somebody repurposing the plutonium? No. Plutonium is not plutonium. For a bomb you need Pu-239. The more Pu-240 in your material the harder it is to slam the pieces together fast enough to avoid a premature chain reaction from robbing your bomb of most of it's power.

For both bomb-making and fuel breeding the desired reaction is U-238 + n => U-239, decays to Np-239, decays to Pu-239. There is also the reaction Pu-239 + n => Pu-240. The power guys don't care, Pu-240 works fine. The bomb guys do care. Thus the power guys leave the fuel in the reactor until too much neutron poison builds up. The bomb guys leave the fuel in the reactor only a short time.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by credit_guy on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @12:16PM (#39456570)
> Every nuclear power plant is a fantastic target for terrorists.

It is not. Let's say you are a terrorist, and you and your team have taken hold of a nuclear power plant. Then what? It's a problem for the world, but not different from you taking over a hotel or a city hall. You might threaten or even kill hostages, but there's no way you can create a significant nuclear threat. Let's say you force an operator, at gunpoint, to remove some rods from the reactor, or otherwise you get possession of some nuclear material. So what? How are you going to get away? You will be surrounded by hundreds or thousands of SWAT officers. What is the scenario where it will make a difference if they take over the nuclear power plant vs a different building?

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by naasking on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @12:32PM (#39456797)
The point is that they could potentially abscond with nuclear material before being surrounded, obviously.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by hunter-gatherer on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @12:48PM (#39457017)
Obviously. Good luck with that.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by inglor_cz on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @12:36PM (#39456856)
Handling nuclear material straight out of the reactor is a good way to kill yourself very painfully.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by naasking on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @01:09PM (#39457281)
Sure, but if we're talking about terrorists that a documented history of being willing to blow themselves up, I don't see why they wouldn't do this too. To avoid the painful death, blow yourself up after absconding but before radiation poisoning really takes its toll.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by vlowther on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @01:48PM (#39457799)
Terrorists willing to blow themselves up at a time of their choosing is the key there. With nuclear waste hot enough to be a menace, the window between getting the material and being painfully incapacitated and/or dead by the material is pretty damn small. Especially since nuclear plants tend to have things like lots of checkpoints and security.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by throwway120385 on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @01:17PM (#39457389)
We're talking about people with EG civil engineering degrees masterminding these plots. The middle-eastern terrorists of yesteryear are not necessarily uneducated. Osama Bin Laden was educated as an engineer in the US and likely would have thought through the endgame and implications of such a plot well before executing it.

These people are not stupid and would likely know what they are getting in to. I'd be more worried about a single unhinged person, but that's why we have security guards, and the problem would likely solve itself in short order in that case.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by inglor_cz on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @02:12PM (#39458128)
If you receive around 1 Gy in five minutes, you won't abscond very far. And you would likely receive a lot more. Not to mention that you would leave a trail of radioactivity from the reactor to your lair/hiding place.

But it is well possible that some people could still try. The Four Lions, only in the real world.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by lazide on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @07:44PM (#39461662)
I’ve personally seen someone get 7 Gy and be relatively functional (in a localized area) - no worse than he went into the OR anyway, to get the stent put in his brain. And he almost certainly lived another decade or so.

The other stuff sure, but it takes a truly mind boggling amount of radiation to incapacitate someone (near) instantly. A lot more than that.

100-150 Gy? The only concrete number I found looking around for ‘instant’ was 1000 Gy to likely kill someone within an hour.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by inglor_cz on Thursday February 22, 2024 @03:21AM (#39464561)
Localized exposure is a different story, some body parts can take a lot of radiation. IDK if someone, having just burglarized a live reactor, can keep their exposure localized in a favorable place.

I think incapacitation is what matters. The human body will fight death for some time, but it won't be able to running around with a heavy backpack of fission material. Various tissues will scream bloody hell almost immediately from being torn apart by the radiation.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by lazide on Thursday February 22, 2024 @11:19AM (#39469313)
True, though notably the Chernobyl 'firefighters' were picking up hot chunks of core and fuel from the reactor building roof, and reported at most feeling tired at the time. They did die shortly afterwards, but that was weeks to a month after.

Definitely a death sentence either way.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by gambiting on Thursday February 22, 2024 @06:39AM (#39465711)
Here's an IAEA report from an incident where a worker walked into an irradiation room of a commercial irradiator with the radioactive source still up - he was only there for about one minute and received a dose of "only" about 10-20Gy total, but realized something was wrong because of intense pain that developed shortly after entering the room, followed by intense neusea and diarrhea 5 minutes later. Despite receiving urgent care immediately he still died a month later.

It's a fascinating(if very morbid) read if you want to have a look:

https://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/Pub925_web.pd...

The point is, that maybe the terrorists wouldn't be inacapacitated, but they certainly wouldn't be able to ignore the effects for very long if at all.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by LorenPechtel on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @01:46PM (#39457775)
Would it even be painful? Wouldn't the stuff from the reactor just kill you promptly?
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by inglor_cz on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @02:15PM (#39458170)
IDK how many real-world casuistics we actually have, but Wikipedia says that absorbed dose over 30 Gy results in severe headache, severe fever, nausea, vomiting and seizures, with death taking up to two days.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by gambiting on Thursday February 22, 2024 @06:41AM (#39465741)
I linked it in another comment, but I'll put it here as well - here's an IAEA report about an accident where a worker walked into an active irradiation room of a commercial irradiator, he was there only for about a minute total but had to leave because of intense pain which made him realize something is wrong. The total dose is estimated at 10-20Gy but it was still enough to make him very unwell almost immediately and caused death about a month later:

https://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/Pub925_web.pd...

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by LorenPechtel on Saturday February 24, 2024 @11:40PM (#39497712)
Yeah, we are pretty lacking on high end data but my understanding was somewhere around 50Gy was expected to knock out brain function. And picking up the hot stuff from a reactor is way above that.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by andrewflnr on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @02:14PM (#39458158)
Terrorists don't need to take over, they just need to plant a big enough bomb or hit it with a big enough plane that it causes a radioactive disaster. Not only do they not necessarily care about their survival, they might actively crave death.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by credit_guy on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @02:20PM (#39458236)

  > In the United States, the design and thickness of the containment and the missile shield are governed by federal regulations (10 CFR 50.55a), and must be strong enough to withstand the impact of a fully loaded passenger airliner without rupture.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Containment_building
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by tuukkah on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @02:56PM (#39458663)
Will this apply to SMRs?
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by credit_guy on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @07:17PM (#39461486)
Very likely. In the US, all civilian nuclear applications are under the oversight of the NRC, and the NRC is a very conservative organization. I don't see them relaxing such any regulation for SMR's, let alone a regulation with such 9/11 vibes.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by CTDOCodebases on Thursday February 22, 2024 @05:48AM (#39465380)
Your assumption is that they want to get away.

What if they just want to overide the safety mechanisms of the reactor and trigger a meltdown?

This is why the crackdown on modern terrorism became so draconion.

They love death as we love life.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by credit_guy on Thursday February 22, 2024 @05:28PM (#39474211)
Well, this actually happened. A guy with a death wish decided to commit suicide by blowing up a nuclear reactor, and he succeeded [1].

Well, actually we don't know this for sure, because the guy (obviously) did not survive to tell the story. It may have been intentional suicide, or simply an unintentional operator error.

But it does not matter. Since then the design of nuclear reactors evolved in such a way as to make it very difficult for an operator to be able to intentionally or unintentionally trigger a blow-up or a melt-down.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SL-1

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by CTDOCodebases on Thursday February 22, 2024 @11:36PM (#39477022)
Thanks for the informative reply.

It’s good to hear that it’s risk that is already mitigated.

Personally the thing that turns me off nuclear the most is that if things do go wrong sections of land basically become uninhabitable for thousands of years. I probably shouldn’t care but it seams like a major downside.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by 3D30497420 on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @12:21PM (#39456649)
My issue with thinking like this is that there are plenty of targets for terrorists: packed trains, stealing a big truck, etc. The fact that these events are pretty rare suggests that there aren't nearly as many terrorists as people seem to be worried about.

Every power generation method has its plusses and negatives. I don't know if the risk from an SMR incident outweighs other methods, but it sounds promising. We certainly need an alternative to sources we know are bad (coal, oil, etc).

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by psunavy03 on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @12:49PM (#39457035)
Western society in general is a bunch of future cancer and heart disease victims all freaking out that they're going to die in a nuclear meltdown, or by the hand of a terrorist, or by a lone gunman "mass shooter," or in a plane crash, or any number of other threats that are scary but statistically highly unlikely.

Human beings are just utter crap at intuitively estimating risk.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by throw0101c on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @01:02PM (#39457204)
> Western society in general is a bunch of future cancer and heart disease victims all freaking out that they're going to die in a nuclear meltdown […]

Also, COVID (to round out the top three in many places).

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by appointment on Thursday February 22, 2024 @06:16AM (#39465529)
COVID has killed 7 million people since 2019. Airliner* crashes killed 80 people in 2023.

These risks are not of the same class.

* admittedly I'm exaggerating slightly by not considering private and military aviation, but I'm too lazy to find that total.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by sidewndr46 on Thursday February 22, 2024 @08:50AM (#39467020)
The difference is you can trivially avoid death by airliner crash. You can't practically reduce your chance of death by COVID unless you simply never go outdoors or have visitors
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by andrewflnr on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @02:10PM (#39458104)
Cancer is the dominant risk of a nuclear meltdown or dirty bomb/explosion, yes.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @02:33PM (#39458390)
Compare the relative probability of dying of cancer as a result of a nuclear meltdown to dying of cancer as a result of cigarettes or chemical carcinogens.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by lazide on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @07:34PM (#39461608)
How about dying from cancer due to all the fallout from the nuclear tests still circulating around?
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by yetihehe on Thursday February 22, 2024 @04:22AM (#39464932)
Probably less than fallout from 0.001% uranium contained in gigatonnes of carbon being burned every year.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by lazide on Thursday February 22, 2024 @11:52AM (#39469753)
True overall (regarding overall alpha emitter load), the issue with fallout is radioactive Iodine, Stronium, Cesium, etc. Those elements have short half lives and won't be as present in significant quantities in flue emissions because of the age of coal (just as daughter products in much lower concentrations than the Uranium).

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fallout]

For actual studies on the impacts, see [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11109179/]

Notably, Stronium-90 levels in deciduous teeth of kids born in the 80's.

"Strontium-90 concentrations in deciduous (baby) teeth of 515 children born mainly after the end of worldwide atmospheric nuclear bomb tests in 1980 are found to equal the concentrations in children born during atmospheric tests in the late 1950s. Recent Sr-90 concentrations in the New York-New Jersey-Long Island metropolitan area have exceeded the expected downward trend seen in both baby teeth and adult bone after the 1963 ban on atmospheric testing. Sharp rises and declines are also seen in Miami, Florida. In Suffolk County, Long Island, Sr-90 concentrations in baby teeth were significantly correlated with cancer incidence for children 0 to 4 years of age. "

Stronium in teeth is a proxy for Stronium in bones too, and those don't fall out.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by goodpoint on Thursday February 22, 2024 @04:16AM (#39464891)
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday February 22, 2024 @04:12PM (#39473323)
> Western society in general is a bunch of future cancer and heart disease victims all freaking out that they're going to die in a nuclear meltdown, or by the hand of a terrorist, or by a lone gunman "mass shooter," or in a plane crash, or any number of other threats that are scary but statistically highly unlikely.

> Human beings are just utter crap at intuitively estimating risk.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by andrewflnr on Thursday February 22, 2024 @03:07PM (#39472388)
Technically, yes, but you have to admit it was an amusing inapt example.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday February 22, 2024 @06:54PM (#39475034)
I think it just reinforces the point. It isn't even a significant proportion of a person's cancer risk.

It's like worrying about the KGB covertly planting listening devices in your house while tech companies are openly planting listening devices in your house. It's not at all unreasonable to be concerned about invasion of privacy, but the people who think they're at significant risk of being individually targeted by the security service of the former Soviet Union because of what they saw on TV have got a screw loose.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by crowcroft on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @01:44PM (#39457745)
I agree that people are bad at estimating risk, but I would also argue that the reason many people live long enough to become cancer victims is because of this freaking out.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by roenxi on Thursday February 22, 2024 @03:28AM (#39464611)
The reason people live so long is because we went all-in on fossil fuels through the 1800s, 1900s and early 2000s. Our long lives and high living standards are pretty much all flow-ons from cheap energy.

The people who prioritise 0-risk living over energy security are self defeating; but the problem is they keep trying to take the rest of us down with them. Their victory of nuclear energy might technically be one of the biggest catastrophes to ever hit humanity. We have never been hit by something else with so high an opportunity cost in absolute terms. Blind and ignorant fear is no basis for making policy decisions.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by crowcroft on Thursday February 22, 2024 @10:56AM (#39468942)
Oh, I do not disagree at all. I'm very pro nuclear!

Defaulting to extreme skepticism and caution towards any technology that dangerous is not a bad starting point though.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by psd1 on Thursday February 22, 2024 @02:17PM (#39471693)
Right, but you're describing the process of an open-minded person.

For the fuckwits in any given electorate, your maxim would be better phrased as "default to not having any fucking opinion at all on that of which you know not"

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by VyseofArcadia on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @01:00PM (#39457179)
> there are plenty of targets for terrorists: packed trains, stealing a big truck, etc.

The counterargument is that blowing up a train or stealing a truck usually doesn't poison the local area for generations. Higher risks means some consideration is due. If the stakes are higher but the probability is the same, the expected value is still higher.

I for one don't want to live in a hellscape pockmarked by miniature exclusion zones.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by consumer451 on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @01:27PM (#39457531)
If you look at it strictly from an economic POV, real estate is devalued near sources of fission. (and other power plants as well)

The market has spoken on that matter.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by bagels on Thursday February 22, 2024 @05:28AM (#39465286)
Which is the cause? Are nuclear plants built in cheaper areas, or do those areas become cheaper because of the plant?
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by hef19898 on Thursday February 22, 2024 @05:57AM (#39465425)
The latter.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by bigbillheck on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @01:39PM (#39457665)
That sounds like a state actor thinking, not a terrorist.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by T_MacThrowFace on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @04:00PM (#39459492)
what if they are actually one and the same
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by rglover on Thursday February 22, 2024 @06:19AM (#39465541)
Arguably, lower-cost, more accessible energy is more likely to decrease the number of terrorists in the world.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by chasil on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @12:31PM (#39456777)
Ideally, the reactor is designed in such a way that a catastrophic failure is not possible.

Something along the lines of the salt plug in a molten salt reactor, that melts when cooling fails and dumps the liquid into a boron bath, halting fission.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by areoform on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @12:31PM (#39456782)
Getting to the material is mechanically difficult. It's also the type of problem that neatly solves itself.

A fuel rod toting terrorist is a dead terrorist.

    > The acceptance criteria in DSRS Section 12.3–12.4 state that accessible portions of the facility that are capable of having radiation levels greater than 1 Gy/h (100 rads/h) should be shielded and clearly marked with a sign stating that potentially lethal radiation fields are possible. DCA Part 2, Tier 2, Revision 3, identifies a number of areas (e.g., resin demineralizers, filters, SRSTs) that may contain quantities of radioactive material resulting in radiation dose rates exceeding 100 rads/h (1 Gy/h). 
Now what I'm about to say changes with the fuel being used, but from LLNL's report,

    > Even for fuel that has cooled for 15 years, a lethal dose (LD50) of 450 rem can be received at 1m from the fuel assembly after several minutes.
https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/10137382

Good luck trying to carry that stuff out. They'll be the walking dead in a few minutes. They'll be unable to walk and will be just dead in ~100 minutes. Give or take 10 to 20 minutes depending on how they're holding the item etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_radiation_syndrome#Dose_...

And no, they can't just "put it in [a] lead [box]" to run away with it, because then they'll die to bremsstrahlung radiation or braking radiation. It'll take longer, but the end result will be the same.

If it's fuel that hasn't gone into the reactor yet/hasn't undergone neutron activation, then it's not radioactive enough to be a concern unless consumed.

Terrorists are rare and they're usually not that capable. It's easier for them to buy a gun or a lorry and mow down a crowd than it is to plan a fiendishly complicated radiation heist.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by giva on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @12:45PM (#39456975)
I just want to point out that a terrorist that drives a plane into a skyscraper is a dead terrorist too.

You need one terrorist to extract the material and put some quantities in a somewhat shielded container before being incapacitated, and then others to spread it on the subway.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by areoform on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @12:52PM (#39457066)
Radiation isn't magic. Several feet/meters of water are used as shielding for the fuel for a good reason.

If you put an activated fuel rod inside of a lead lunch box, you will still die. You will now die from a lethal dose of bremsstrahlung. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung

If you interact with this material as an amateur without processes, robotics and safety, you will die. Period. You will also suffer from intense nausea and be unable to move before you die.

Sharks with lasers are more realistic than this concern.

The more plausible scenario is a "dirty bomb" that spreads depleted uranium particles everywhere and gives people cancer long-term. But there's an element of impracticality to this and there's a reason why it hasn't happened yet.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by ViewTrick1002 on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @01:50PM (#39457830)
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by roenxi on Thursday February 22, 2024 @04:59AM (#39465160)
We have on-the-record cases of potatoes that have caused a similar number of deaths and injuries [0].

These incidents, while uncomfortable, are just not that concerning. You can kill yourself with damn near anything if you mishandle it badly enough.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanine#Recorded_human_poison...

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by lazide on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @02:58PM (#39458682)
The issue they’re pointing out is that no one seriously considered terrorists flying airplanes into skyscrapers either, for similar reasons.

Until they did it.

After all, it’s very impractical getting a bunch of random terrorists training in flying well enough to do this without being caught.

Let alone co-ordinating everything, getting through multiple layers of airport security, etc.

And everyone ‘successful’ is going to die too. Who would do that?

Historically, terrorists would just hijack a plane for attention and/or money and then let everyone go except for those stupid enough to fight them.

Which is why the reaction onboard to the terrorists taking the planes was so muted, until a passenger on one of the planes heard the news of the first impact, and they realized they were in a very different situation than a hijacking for money.

Not considering dirty bomb type issues a threat would likely be a mistake.

Having a bunch of disposable idiots throw hot fuel rods into a water tanker truck, then driving to manhattan, seeding the water with cobalt-59, and letting the mess ‘sort itself out’ (or blowing the the truck up) certainly wouldn’t be hard compared to 9/11 in these scenarios, or likely kill more than a handful of terrorists. Depending on how well secured the fuel was anyway.

It would create an absolutely terrific mess though.

The only hard part here would be getting the hot fuel (and the idiots), everything else would be ‘COTS’.

Which, like 9/11, would not be seen as ‘expensive’.

This isn’t sharks with lasers territory.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by pas on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @05:09PM (#39460345)
SMRs don't mean they would be scattered around carelessly. They still need the whole steam boiler turbine toybox. And with security requirements they will most likely be put on a site like current NPPs.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by lazide on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @05:27PM (#39460504)
A big selling point in the SMR space is they can be placed almost anywhere. It’s literally on the ‘brochure’.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by pas on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @06:06PM (#39460895)
yes, and it might make sense, and we will see ... but.

the real economics low-hanging fruit is to build those regular NPPs in increments, basically cheaper AND faster (which also means even cheaper). get real economies of scale, apply all of the last century's industrialization benefits on nuclear energy. (because current cost overruns are insane and mostly because of too-slow AND super-duper-artisanal (which means even slower) plant construction.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by fbdab103 on Thursday February 22, 2024 @02:38AM (#39464301)
>The issue they’re pointing out is that no one seriously considered terrorists flying airplanes into skyscrapers either, for similar reasons. Until they did it.

Was literally an episode of the Lone Gunmen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lone_Gunmen_(TV_series)

  In the pilot episode, which aired March 4, 2001 (exactly six months and one week prior to the September 11 attacks[5]), rogue members of the U.S. government remotely hijack an airliner flying to Boston, planning to crash it into the World Trade Center, and let anti-American terrorist groups take credit, to gain support for a profitable new war following the Cold War. The heroes ultimately override the controls, foiling the plot.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by lazide on Thursday February 22, 2024 @02:24PM (#39471767)
Are you claiming that counts as being seriously considered? Or just floating around?

Clearly, Vince Gilligan is a member of the illuminati. Though the list of follow up episodes was a bit meh. Perhaps also telling?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lone_Gunmen_(TV_series)#ci...], such as

Episode 6 - "A man contacts the Lone Gunmen, believing his life has been stolen after being abducted by aliens. They end up getting caught in a love triangle involving a one-eyed stereo salesman, brainwashing, and a wrestling dwarf."

Episode 10 - "Yves and Frohike go undercover as tango dancers to stop a man from selling government secrets."

Or, the real 'telling the truth in the form of a lie'?

Their last episode #13 - "The Lone Gunmen team up with Man in Black agent Morris Fletcher to find Yves. What they uncover is Romeo-61, a secret government organization responsible for decades of major incidents."

Was Vince picking up top-secret communications in his fillings (maybe even subconsciously) and ended up telling too much? Or a SG-1 style 'early disclosure'/'disinfo' campaign? Or false-false flag? Or coincidence? Or reaction to some actual gov't preparatory 'conspiracy theory' poisoning the well?

The world may never know. /s

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by LorenPechtel on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @01:45PM (#39457756)
But even if the guy will die to steal it that doesn't mean he will live long enough to accomplish anything. And note that he's trying to tote around a gamma source--that's something that can be detected from some distance away. As soon as said terrorist gets it out from behind whatever shields it normally lives behind the alarms start blaring. I remember reading about one, anti-nuke guy kept showing up at meetings at a nuclear facility. Then one day the alarms go off--traced to the old radium-dial watch he was wearing. Rather silenced him.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by hcknwscommenter on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @01:15PM (#39457358)
the words "some" and "somewhat" are doing an impractical degree of heavy lifting. Pre-activation material is just not very radioactive and is thus not a terrorist risk. Post-activation material is basically impossible for a non-nation state actor to store and transport. If you just want to dirty up an area by, e.g., spreading radioactive material on a subway, just buy a lot of smoke detectors or do a midnight raid on a hospital or factory radiation source (not advice!). The point is, these are not going to be practical targets.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by mytailorisrich on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @01:00PM (#39457181)
I expect SMRs would be protected as standard nuclear plants are.

Therefore, these are not easy targets and we've seen that they are very easy targets everywhere that will have the desired effect.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by ElectronCharge on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @01:37PM (#39457642)
I like the idea of siting them underground, which completely addresses the aircraft strike vulnerability. Physical security is also easy when they're underground.

Thorcon was pursuing this, but has switched to a ship-based approach.

Searching today, I found a new (to me at least) company that's working on a truly small reactor, 3-15 MW electricity, and is planning on underground siting: https://www.usnc.com/mmr/

It also supplies 10-45 MW of thermal, so great for poleward climes.

Fission will be a critical technology going forward, until fusion generation can compete on power to size/weight ratio...and cost. And until aneutronic fusion power is practical, there's no large benefit to fusion regarding waste.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by jszymborski on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @01:43PM (#39457735)
SMRs feel like a much worse target from what I understand.

I'm no expert, but my understanding

1) SMRs are typically designed to be walk-away safe. Their smaller capacity means its harder for them to go critical in a spectacular way. [0]

2) Distributed targets are hard to respond to, but they're also hard to hit in an impactful way. Instead of having to hit one giant nuclear plant which supplies an entire regions energy, you have to hit many much smaller targets which supply much less energy.

[0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2018/01/24/can-we-ma...

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by Retric on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @01:56PM (#39457934)
Getting it critical is a long way from the worst thing you can do with access to one or more SMR.

However, nobody is going to be using these things individually. You still need a steam turbine, and cooling tower etc. So the general assumption is people will be using 10+ of these things and the added complexity would be offset by economies of scale.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @02:22PM (#39458263)
> The one thing I still wonder is whether SMRs could create a security nightmare.

People are going to tell you why this isn't a major concern, but the main reason it doesn't matter is that it doesn't matter. There are chemical poisons every bit as nasty as anything in a nuclear reactor which have a half-life of ~forever and aren't that hard to make or obtain. You can't prevent this because they're simple compounds made of common elements.

People are afraid of nuclear because of its association with nuclear weapons, not because there is anything uniquely dangerous inside the reactor worse than things in chemical plants all over the place that nobody pays any attention to.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by mlsu on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @03:30PM (#39459088)
Nuclear material has the fantastic property that you can precisely measure the danger. Regardless of the specifics of the material, regardless of the geometry, size, surface coating, chemical composition -- a geiger counter will tell you exactly how dangerous the material is.

There is this kind of weird thing that people do where they assume nuclear waste is uniquely dangerous. It isn't! We can just measure it, so the danger is perfectly legible. This is a good thing! The rest of industrial waste is NOT like this. You can see studies of people who live in areas near oil refineries and chemical plants in Texas and Louisiana -- population level cancer and birth defect rates are very high. It's exactly as you say, bog standard "dangerous chemicals" are just as dangerous as nuclear radiation is. Only we can't measure them, so I guess what can ya do if a whole city gets birth defects or cancer?

The double standard is actually wild. I would prefer to live next to a nuclear plant, thank you very much. I can get a geiger counter and know if I'm being poisoned.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by lazide on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @03:02PM (#39458750)
Eh, kinda.

The chemical ‘poison’ equivalent to a hot fuel rod (if spread around) is probably roughly equivalent to a couple hundred liters of VX nerve gas or Sarin..

Which, if not near anyone, isn’t very dangerous! It will lose that strength pretty quickly, and the longer lived elements are more like a ton of PCBs, or several tons of organic lead compounds.

Not great, don’t live there, but with proper PPE it wouldn’t kill you anytime soon.

But if moved to a place where people are at and can’t escape from, or smeared on something worth a lot of money, is a really big problem.

If magnified (with say cobalt powder), it could be an even bigger mess.

Hot fuel rods are very strictly controlled for a reason.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @03:25PM (#39459016)
It depends on what kind of damage you're trying to cause. Someone would use different chemicals for trying to kill a lot of people in one place immediately than trying to cause a large economic impact by filling the area with something expensive to eliminate that causes health problems. But the same is true of radioisotopes. The most immediately fatal ones have a short half-life and are only effective at that when concentrated rather than dispersed over a large area.

If you have physical access to something with a high monetary value and you want to mess it up, chemical explosives do just fine and can be made from ordinary household substances.

> Hot fuel rods are very strictly controlled for a reason.

The main legitimate reason is that some existing reactors were purposely designed not to poison the fuel with heavier Plutonium isotopes in a way that makes it unsuitable for producing weapons, because the countries wanted to use them for that, but that can be solved in newer designs by doing the opposite. The main political reason is media fear mongering and decades of Russian propaganda designed to keep people buying Russian gas. Which you can kill as many people with as you can with a fuel rod, but half the population has it piped into their homes.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by lazide on Thursday February 22, 2024 @11:12AM (#39469212)
Good point re: non-proliferation. Hot fuel is definitely dangerous in more than one way. Even if the hot fuel could not be refined for weapons, it still wouldn't be something you could just buy or get though eh?

The issue is chemicals tend to be less dense and energy intense. And instill a lot less fear (usually). Many are heavily regulated too though, and some are getting more and more so.

For instance, can you name a chemical that will be any MORE expensive to clean off something you want to keep than a mixed radionucleotide soup? Even HF or FOOF should be way easier. Maybe methyl mercury?

Especially since (as Castle Bravo demonstrated), some of this stuff is essentially impossible to remove due to how chemically reactive it is. Some of the soup is going to want to bond like glue to everything, and is also pretty hot too - but not hot enough to be gone in a year or two.

To your point, there are definitely chemicals that can cause more actual immediate physical harm (probably), like phosgene. Or methyl mercury. Or a number of easily synthesizable chemical explosives.

But I'm not sure they would cause less fear than exploding a bunch of mixed 'hot' radionuclides in a crowded area. Probably because it wouldn't be predictable or immediately obvious who and how many would die. And there would be some pretty nasty looking video/photos of those who did.

To my original point - none of these are Sharks with Lasers on their head improbable, either way. And if someone wanted to instill as much fear and uncertainty as possible (like a terrorist), using the scariest method to the public as possible is going to be on their list.

So, worth making sure there are decent security precautions that actually get monitored/enforced, so someone doesn't just walk off with some hot rods at some point and cause a huge mess.

You won't find me arguing about propaganda and ideology though. Near as I can tell, that's killed more humans than anything else - and will continue to do so.

Also worth burning various media offices to the ground probably, but good luck getting any group of people to agree on whose eh?

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday February 22, 2024 @01:40PM (#39471230)
> Even if the hot fuel could not be refined for weapons, it still wouldn't be something you could just buy or get though eh?

Eh. Nuclear reactors are expensive because of regulatory requirements, not physics. It's not that hard to get natural uranium. If you're a criminal who just wants fission byproducts and doesn't care about NRC approval, you could make one without too much trouble. If you had some basic knowledge you might not even kill yourself.

> For instance, can you name a chemical that will be any MORE expensive to clean off something you want to keep than a mixed radionucleotide soup? Even HF or FOOF should be way easier.

HF or FOOF might not be that easy to remove now that the thing you're trying to clean it off of has been dissolved by acid or vaporized in the resulting explosion. It is in general hard to clean something after it has ceased to exist.

> But I'm not sure they would cause less fear than exploding a bunch of mixed 'hot' radionuclides in a crowded area.

I hate to quote FDR so maybe we should use the example of the English during The Troubles.

If you allow yourself to be terrorized, you let the terrorists win. People are afraid because the media and politicians tell them to be afraid because they're manipulating you just as much as the terrorists are, for their own purposes. Anyone caught doing this should be regarded as committing an act of betrayal and condemned as a coward attempting to capitalize on a tragedy.

> Also worth burning various media offices to the ground probably, but good luck getting any group of people to agree on whose eh?

You don't actually have to burn down their offices. Just stop watching them and at scale they'll fail.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by lazide on Thursday February 22, 2024 @02:19PM (#39471712)
Okay, but at the point you're refining your own Uranium and building your own breeder reactor, you're also at the point you're likely making your own intermediate (or even intercontinental) range ballistic missiles no?

And then you're more visible/have more of a footprint, and it's a lot harder to get under the radar.

And perhaps you'd even have something more useful to do with your life - or at least you'd have something you'd be hesitant to lose in retaliation.

Same as if you're able to build your own airplanes, you don't need to hijack any. But also, if you can hijack an airplane to do what you want to do - why bother going to the effort of building your own?

And as for the other points - I've never been worried about Hamas or personally cared to watch Fox News - and it's been decades. I also stopped reading/watching any general news several years ago.

So why are they not only still there, but have caused a lot of damage since? And made a lot of money?

No man is an island. And no matter how mentally healthy someone in Stalingrad was, they were still in for a world of hurt between '42 and the '60's, eh?

And if you refuse to use a tool against someone who will not hesitate to use it against you, guess what tool they'll eventually end up using all the time?

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday February 22, 2024 @04:22PM (#39473443)
> Okay, but at the point you're refining your own Uranium and building your own breeder reactor, you're also at the point you're likely making your own intermediate (or even intercontinental) range ballistic missiles no?

Gosh no. Rocket science is legitimately hard to the point that it's a cliche. Getting some elements to do physics together when you don't care about regulatory requirements is pretty much just a matter of putting them near each other and hoping you used enough shielding that it won't kill you.

> So why are they not only still there, but have caused a lot of damage since? And made a lot of money?

Because other people watched them, of course. Everyone has to do their part by turning off the fear-mongering talking heads. You can't stop other people from doing it, but you can stop doing it yourself, and so could they.

> And if you refuse to use a tool against someone who will not hesitate to use it against you, guess what tool they'll eventually end up using all the time?

The one that makes everyone hate them.

It is not possible to defeat evil by doing evil. You only become that which is to be defeated.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by lazide on Thursday February 22, 2024 @06:29PM (#39474819)
Uh huh. Yet, every nuclear power was at exactly at that point right at the same time, and had roughly the same success level (working reactors and rockets).

And the Nazi’s were destroyed by…. Hugs?

And not firebombing, machine gunning, etc. most of Western Europe?

Let me know when you care about reality more than the illusion.

Some things, it's an existential threat - and existential threats like that tend to only be resolvable with by death or complete subjugation of one side or the other.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday February 22, 2024 @07:36PM (#39475364)
And then the United States, having won the war using Hugs, disbanded the military industrial complex and threw the One Ring into the volcano, which is why the country is now so beloved in places like Iran and South America.

Notice how we were talking about terrorists and you had to switch to WWII to actually find an existential threat, and yet once you normalize these measures they become routine. Even the term "national security" was meant to imply this -- something critical to the security of the nation, that could cause it to fall to an enemy. How is this applicable to the War on Terror? Was the United States ever at risk of surrendering to bin Laden and disbanding Congress in favor of a Caliphate? It was not, and yet "national security" was the justification for every evil act committed in the name of fighting evil.

If you're weaker than someone else and you can win without fighting dirty, you're clever. If you're stronger than someone else and you can't win without fighting dirty, you deserve to lose.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by lazide on Thursday February 22, 2024 @08:02PM (#39475561)
Impressive way of dodging every point, while maybe agreeing with me while pretending you didn’t, and spinning up a giant strawman?

Bin Laden initiated 9/11 on his own, destroyed a huge center piece of the US financial system and terrorized the entire country.

Were the responses justified, or useful?

What does that have to do with my point that hugs solve none of these actual real world problems?

Do you think that if the US had gone ‘oh, sorry yeah you have a point - our bad’ that things would have worked out better?

And I don’t see how that has anything to do with the risk that someone might also make a dirty bomb - you know, the conversation we’ve actually been having?

Until you actually talk about something related to real world situations here instead of constantly dodging them, I’m out.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by AnthonyMouse on Friday February 23, 2024 @03:40AM (#39478317)
Your argument was this:

> Some things, it's an existential threat - and existential threats like that tend to only be resolvable with by death or complete subjugation of one side or the other.

But a dirty bomb is not an existential threat to the United States. The US military actually evaluated them for their own use and concluded that they're militarily useless and not worth developing.

And since we're not dealing with an existential threat, we don't have to do anything radical to address it. Did some terrorists do a terrorism? Arrest them. They can't keep doing terror plots when they're locked up in prison forever, and if the result of terrorism is "you go to prison and nothing else changes" then there isn't a lot of incentive for anybody to do it.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by lazide on Friday February 23, 2024 @10:56AM (#39482168)
You're not even reading your own arguments, near as I can tell?

Of course a dirty bomb isn't militarily useful to the US gov't. They have literal nuclear weapons. Hijacking a civilian airliner and using it to attack a target in a suicide attack ALSO isn't militarily useful to the US government. They have cruise missiles.

They also wouldn't stoop to these kinds of tactics, and have overpowering force in other areas, so what else is the enemy going to use (eventually)?

A tiny group (equivalent to a US Army Company in size) being able to attack one of the most prominent financial centers of the United States successfully (and, notably, the Pentagon as well!) on live TV, instilling fear and terror in the populace, and even getting away with it for a decade is of course an existential threat to the United States.

Near as I can tell, no country in the world could pull that off successfully, not even Russia or China.

And how do you propose the gov't was going to 'just arrest' Osama Bin Laden? Or any other terrorist group?

The whole point is that they hide among civilians and go deep underground when hunted, using what we won't do to be successful.

It took a decade to even FIND OBL. And if they put him on trial, it would just give him an audience to push buttons and get his message out even wider and stir up more shit. Look at what is going on with Israel and Palestine/Hamas.

And how would you propose that the gov't not have the populace scared when something like 9/11 happens.

Should the news just not report on someone plowing nearly fully occupied airliners into the iconic and fully occupied World Trade Center towers in downtown Manhattan, or the Pentagon - in broad daylight during a workday, no less.

Towers that were common tourist hotspots and were plainly visible literally from some of the busiest streets in one of the most prominent cities in the entire world?

With no warning, and no effective countermeasures or prevention at the time?

Or that the entire US picks up deep meditation practice to understand the futility of 'holding on' to such things and how they get used against oneself?

Neither of those are realistic, or even a good idea near as I can tell in this situation.

Honestly, this type of attitude is exactly what leads up to these kinds of situations happening. It's sticking one's head in the sand.

And the world isn't slowing down. Check out this 3D printed surface to air missile project on Youtube.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvcDwSmmxWs]

And this little piece on the Glock Switch, which has been circulating for years. Also easy to make at home with a 3D printer, a vise, and a file.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfVKcItEaiE]

I'm done wasting my time in this discussion now.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by rich_sasha on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @03:21PM (#39458954)
You can still put them on a small few sites, with heavy security. You will still reap the yet-to-be-demonstrated benefit of cheaper per-MW power (personally I'm hopeful).
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by WatchDog on Thursday February 22, 2024 @12:43AM (#39463640)
There are already hundreds(thousands?) of geographically distributed nuclear weapon silos.

I would be more worried about weapons than I would be about nuclear waste.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by actionfromafar on Thursday February 22, 2024 @04:14AM (#39464875)
Put an SMR next to every silo, then. The security is partly paid for already, I guess?
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by BlueTemplar on Thursday February 22, 2024 @02:09AM (#39464110)
I am more concerned about when/if we have millions of small nuclear reactors around, some of them will end up abandoned/lost. Then many years later, they will start to leak (think rain getting in).
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by samus on Thursday February 22, 2024 @03:20AM (#39464557)
Unlikely, that would imply a major breakdown of civilization. They are all connected to power lines, else they would not have been installed in the first place.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by BlueTemplar on Thursday February 22, 2024 @06:28AM (#39465622)
Well yes, major breakdowns of civilization have happened before and will happen again. There's one going on right now on the Ukraine/Russia border !
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by samus on Friday February 23, 2024 @04:06AM (#39478501)
And we saw what happens when nuclear installations are caught behind frontlines. In such situations, installations composed of SMRs would have advantages. For example, artillery blowing one up would be quite gnarly still, but less so than if that happened to a much larger monolithic plant!
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by gambiting on Thursday February 22, 2024 @06:43AM (#39465752)
I mean during cold war many RTGs were deployed in remote regions of the world and subsequently lost. We even know of some cases where random people came across them and opened them up(unknowingly killing themselves in the process).
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by samus on Friday February 23, 2024 @04:00AM (#39478459)
SMR won't deployed to remote locations and then forgotten though. They will be installed and managed like usual nuclear installations: at dedicated sites, with appropriate security, and close supervision. Their purpose is to make these installations more modular and thus cheaper to maintain, extend, upgrade, and ultimately to decommission.
Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by BlueTemplar on Friday February 23, 2024 @06:06AM (#39479203)
And yet before this I kept seeing publications about how they can be packed in a few containers/trailers and delivered anywhere to start producing heat/power...

I guess it might have been about a different company, but you can understand my worries ?

Also comes to mind the previous recklessness of some : while the USA has judged the use of "full blown" nuclear reactors in space too dangerous, the USSR launched 33 of them, 3 of which accidentally fell back to Earth, one contaminating a chunk of Canada. They even seemed to have kept launching them after Chernobyl, though that might have been inertia ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US-A

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by samus on Friday February 23, 2024 @07:57AM (#39479981)
Just because it could be deployed almost anywhere, doesn't mean it will. Just like with rental housing containers that could be ordered to be shipped anywhere a road leads to.

We will likely see more nuclear installations though due to the fact that they don't have to be gargantuan to scale with the engineering costs. But they will be subject to the same regulatory regime that governs the existing installations.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by jillesvangurp on Thursday February 22, 2024 @02:41AM (#39464320)
It's a good thing to call out. The short version of this is that nuclear proponents are a bit hand wavy on this topic and that there is no good plan for this; nor any economical modeling worth talking about.

But there's no such thing as nuclear power deployed on an insecure location. At best you have nuclear plants on very remote or hard to reach sites where the security is a bit minimal. But essentially all existing nuclear is the subject of intense and costly security. Under current non proliferation treaties, that's neither optional nor likely to change any time soon.

Logically that means co-locating small nuclear plants on larger sites is the most cost effective way to secure them. That's something people have speculated about. The most suitable locations for that would be existing nuclear plants and decommissioned coal plants. Of course if you do that, you need to compare the efficiency of having lots of small reactors in one place and compare it to having 1 big reactor in the same place. Big reactors tend to be more efficient.

The notion that you can just fedex these things to wherever, plop them down and then check back in 30 years is a bit naive. That's not how it works in the real world. People deploying these things are going to be on the spot for securing them at a non zero cost. 24x7 for life time of the reactor and the waste.

Total cost of ownership is not limited to production and shipping (also needs security) but also has to include inspections, day to day operations, site security, waste disposal, handling, and security. (though that is commonly excluded and off-loaded on future generations of course), etc.

If you exclude all those things the cost per kwh looks more rosy than it is. The real cost is something most nuclear proponents avoid talking about simply because it generally looks pretty bad. But somebody still has to pay for that.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by goodpoint on Thursday February 22, 2024 @04:12AM (#39464863)
> How do you protect infrastructure with many SMRs?

You don't. In times of increasing polarization and risks of social unrest we need safe and decentralized energy sources like PV.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by sidewndr46 on Thursday February 22, 2024 @08:49AM (#39467006)
I can't speak for the UK but in the US this can't be true. The plan for nuclear waste from the energy industry in the US is to leave political office before it is an issue. There is no way to dispose of it, period. Multiple plans have been put forth, many billions spent and none of it has ever actually been implemented.

I think the military is a little different in that they get to override certain concerns.

Re:Nuclear SMR welding breakthrough: A year's work now takes... by belorn on Thursday February 22, 2024 @10:11AM (#39468223)
A Nuclear power plant as a target for terrorists sounds nice as a movie plot, but in practice it sound as a lot of work for much less results.

If they wanted to go after the power infrastructure, a hydrpower dam are generally just guarded with fences and cameras, has built in weak points, and the destruction they bring causes whole nation to shut down. As a side effect they also bring down down stream transmission lines, shutdowns roads transportation on water, rail and road. A dam is basically a large number of nuclear bombs suspended above all the city that is down stream.

Going down in scale, natural gas deliveries, especially train and trucks, are rolling bombs. 22 tank cars has the equivalent energy of the Hiroshima bomb. Both trains and trucks goes through city centers. Those things are dangerous even without terrorist plots. Laws against this however has generally gone the other direction, with more freedom for train and trucks to transport this with less security.