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Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by coldpie on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @11:29AM (#38855991)
Before: If you build a building of this size, you MUST also build at least X parking spaces.

Now: If you build a building of this size, you MAY build as many parking spaces as you think you need.

Seems like a strict improvement to me.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by DoneWithAllThat on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @11:35AM (#38856066)
It’s not. I’ve lived in neighborhoods that did this and it was a nightmare. All street parking filling up by 4pm. Half hour walks to your car. Neighbors keying each others cars for taking up a space for too long. Guests basically just being SOL - you’d literally be unable to have guests over because if you left to pick them up there’d be no spot when you got back, and if they drove themselves they’d never find a spot.

Without readily available and reliable public transportation this is just lining developers pockets (because fewer parking spaces needed means more units they can build).

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by ericmay on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @11:46AM (#38856233)
> Neighbors keying each others cars for taking up a space for too long.

People need to stop being shitty to each other.

> Without readily available and reliable public transportation this is just lining developers pockets (because fewer parking spaces needed means more units they can build).

I don't think this is fair. Fewer parking spaces might mean higher profits for developers on a per-unit basis, but I'd rather them make money and provide more additional housing units that are sorely needed, especially in cities, than build apartment complexes with garages or parking which then necessitate higher taxes and more public spending to support roads, car crashes, and other related externalities.

"But public transit costs money too" yes, just redirect state highway department budgets to transit 1-1 and then you're not spending any more and getting higher ROI.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by arcticbull on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @01:46PM (#38857960)
Further, we should move to a model where the highways are paid entirely by usage fees (gas tax, tolls, etc) instead of subsidized. They're for the benefit of private operators, so the private operators should pay for them. The investments should be in public transit instead.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by wharvle on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @01:55PM (#38858113)
A great deal of highway spending is subsidizing truck shipping. Most of the damage done to highways comes from big trucks, and taxes on them don't come anywhere near paying for it.

[EDIT] Incidentally, maybe we shouldn't subsidize truck shipping! But using usage taxes to pay for highways while not shifting the burden such that truck shipping is paying the lion's share of the cost and is no longer (so very much, at least) subsidized, would be making non-commercial drivers subsidize truck shipping (even more than they already are) which subsidy (to some degree) benefits everyone, including non-drivers, which seems like a weird and/or bad move to me.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by arcticbull on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:26PM (#38858584)
Truck shipping has never made sense to me. It's significantly less fuel efficient than rail shipping, and paying people to just sit there and drive for their entire lives feels kinda torturous to me...
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by wharvle on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:35PM (#38858694)
Lots of communities aren't served by rail, ship, or barge (or nowhere near enough capacity of those, or efficiently connected to the wrong places—how much raw iron ore or coal does a small town need?) so truck shipping's all they've got. Rail may pass through nearby, but without unloading capability or sufficient capacity at a proper train yard. Trucks drive to them from the nearest hub or notable train yard, which may be way more than your usual "last mile" concern that a city or whatever has. Tens of miles, to the warehouses that serve them, then tens of miles more to the nearest major store, that kind of thing.

Rural living would be way more expensive and inconvenient without truck shipping subsidies. Which, maybe making rural living artificially cheap is a good idea and maybe it's not, but that's one big shift that would happen if we made truck shipping pay its way entirely.

[EDIT] For true long-haul, I'm with you, the majority of that's surely only viable because of those subsidies, and we'd be better off pushing that to rail, ship, and barge.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by coldpie on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @11:40AM (#38856146)
> Without readily available and reliable public transportation

Cool. Let's do that, too!

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by _dain_ on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @11:37AM (#38856098)
It sounds like the parking was underpriced.

EDIT I am rate-limited so can't reply, but this part:

"If you have 200 cars"

This is only the case if the demand for parking / driving is perfectly inelastic, which would be quite extraordinary. Empirically, when you charge for parking or institute toll roads, traffic tends to fall, in some cases sharply (because many journeys are low value). I repeat: if the parking spaces are still congested, the price should be raised until they're not.

Assuming the number of cars would stay the same is like the lump-of-labour fallacy. Lump of metal fallacy?

Then there's the supply side: guess what, that's not inelastic either! If it's profitable to provide parking, someone will build dedicated facilities for it and charge for their use. This may be an alien concept for some of you, but only because parking minimums cause such oversupply that they can't be run profitably. In cities where parking is priced sanely, it's unremarkable to see this.

"Cars will just overflow into adjacent neighbourhoods" okay, so charge for parking there too, until they don't. Duh.

I don't see why cars should get to sit somewhere rent-free but a human being can't. Urban land is valuable; if you want to occupy it, pay what it costs, ya fuckin welfare queens

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by doctorpangloss on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @11:53AM (#38856327)
I'm not sure why you are being downvoted.

The reason people keep buying cars after prices rise 57% in a decade: the extra $10,000 amortized over 10 years is less than living even 1 year near the things you drive to. Things you drive to includes your parking space!

It doesn't make any sense to own a car and live in a dense urban development. What more needs to be said? Live in the suburbs if you have a car.

Fortunately bridge and toll community members are insensitive to these changes. They see no problems with 2 hours of schlepping, $16 of tolls and $25 parking to drink $0.50 of vodka priced at $17 at a downtown bar. If they were sensitive to these issues, that behavior would have ceased much sooner than a pandemic-induced shock to their routines.

That said, I don't see anything wrong with the suburban lifestyle, I am a product of it. Instead of focusing on issues like parking costs, which cities can never beat suburbs at because suburbs have essentially infinite land, cities should fix their education systems, because they can realistically beat suburbs on the concentration of human capital. My community would be far more appreciative of that than bullshit about parking spots.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by tomatocracy on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @03:09PM (#38859142)
> It doesn't make any sense to own a car and live in a dense urban development.

Public transport can be good but it's never that good. I live in zone 1 (ie very centrally) in London and there are still many journeys where it is quicker and cheaper for me to drive than to take any kind of public transport. This is true for longer journeys (going outside London) especially but surprisingly it's also true for quite a few short journeys (even going a couple of miles) - it depends a lot on the layout of the public transport network and the roads, and this is before considering journeys where I might want to bring bulky or heavy things with me which are basically impossible to do by public transport. I end up driving enough that the cost of car ownership vs short term rentals makes sense in pure economic terms but the convenience difference of ownership vs short-term rental is also pretty big.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by foxyv on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @11:45AM (#38856213)
Parking, Roads, Gasoline, Pollution, etc... We so heavily subsidize people's cars for no reason. For the cost of all of it we could have free healthcare and amazing public transportation then lower taxes with the left over money.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by njarboe on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @01:52PM (#38858045)
Um... Just US healthcare spending is 17.3% of GDP. $4.5 Trillion per year. No way this works.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by foxyv on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @03:21PM (#38859296)
A large part of that is inflated health care costs. US citizens have to pay more than twice as much on average. Some services such as ER visits can cost 10x as much. US spends twice as much per capita than UK but get much less from it. Also keep in mind that the amount spent on roads is only a fraction of the total cost of cars in the USA.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by brewdad on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:47PM (#38858860)
Cut out the middle man (insurance companies and their profits) and you can get this number dramatically lower.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by BillTheDuck on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @04:41PM (#38860306)
Simple solutions do NOT exist.

There is a litany of "middlemen"; Drs, Corporations, Hospitals, Insurance, Pharmacies, Drug Companies, marketing, Lawyers ... ALL have a stake in something.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by autoexec on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @11:52AM (#38856307)
jacking up the prices for parking spaces due to artificially induced scarcity will mean that cars are still every bit as essential to get around, but now only the wealthy will be able to afford to park them, screwing over the population least able to arrange/afford alternatives. I guess it's somehow better if the increasing number of poors in the US have to park miles away from their jobs (if they're lucky enough) and have to walk/run the rest of the way.

Like it or not, our cities are already built to make cars a necessity and pricing people out of access to the majority of places within a city isn't a solution to the design of public transportation or roads.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by ripply on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @12:02PM (#38856453)
This is step 1 of reversing car centricity in these areas. Believe it or not some people in Europe in their 30s don’t even know how to drive because it’s just not needed. When you require parking spots for housing you increase the distance between everything. Going places requires transport because you have all these god forsaken parking lots you have to traverse to get to your destination.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by autoexec on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @12:20PM (#38856692)
Step one should be creating adequate public transportation so that the people with the fewest options are still able to get to work, doctors, and grocery stores even after existing parking spaces go away and no new ones are built.

Parking lots aren't what's keeping people in subdivisions from being miles away from those places. Parking spots aren't what's keeping people in cities from being able to walk to where they're going either. Parking lots are extremely walkable spaces even while being hot and unattractive.

You could get rid of every parking lot in your city and you'd still have highways you can't cross or safely walk/bike along side of, you'd still have housing set miles away from city centers, and you'd still have no access to most places by public transportation. Our cities are built from the ground up with the expectation that people will use cars to get around. That was a mistake, but getting rid of parking spots isn't the cure.

I've been in places like Tokyo where public transportation met all of my needs. We can do it, but you need the infrastructure in place first or you're just hurting people by leaving them with zero alternatives to what you're taking from them.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by hughesjj on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:12PM (#38858411)
Why not replace some on street parking with a dedicated bus lane and stops for such?

Two birds, one stone

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by autoexec on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:25PM (#38858558)
It'd be a good start!

It'll take a massive increase in public transportation infrastructure, and a long and slow redesign of our cities and how we live to fix the mess the auto-industry has put us in. It's a transition that's long overdue, but the reality of the situation now is that people still need their cars.

Making sure that people have something to fall back on before we take their cars away from them or remove the places they put them at night/charge them should be a priority. What these cities are doing is the opposite of that.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by brewdad on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:54PM (#38858958)
Many households have more than one car per driver. With WFH many of these cars sit largely unused. We went down to being a one car family over a year ago and it has rarely been an issue. It requires a little bit of planning. "Hey I need the car on Thursday. Does that work for you?" Otherwise, a second car would mostly only get used because "Well, it hasn't been driven in a while".
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by autoexec on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @04:33PM (#38860230)
I agree that WFH is a game changer here. Households in that situation are incentivized to get rid of excess vehicles since they cost money to maintain, license, and insure. With downtown office spaces and the nearby businesses that depend on them being abandoned, a lot of parking space can be reclaimed there too.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by kilotaras on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @11:57AM (#38856383)
> artificially induced scarcity

How is *not requiring* parking to be provided inducing scarcity artificially?

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by autoexec on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @12:09PM (#38856538)
Because before developers were required to ensure that when they built something adding parking spaces to handle the demand they were introducing to an area was their responsibility. Now developers can (and will) push that externality onto the public at zero cost to them. The city has a very limited amount of parking spaces it can provide at any cost which means that removing that requirement will suddenly make parking much more expensive and harder to obtain.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by kilotaras on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @12:24PM (#38856746)
But that's not what artificially inducing means.

London for example have buildings which are prohibited of having parking (or getting street permit). Providing an option not pay for parking space when buying an apartment is not that.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by hughesjj on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:20PM (#38858507)
IDK, pure speculation, but maybe 'autoexec' isn't arguing in good faith here and may have a conflict of interest
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by autoexec on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:26PM (#38858592)
I really don't. I'm not even sure what kind of person would have a conflict of interest while supporting that we keep the requirement until actual alternatives are available to everyone.

While I have a car, and enjoy having one, and have a nice parking space in a heated underground garage, I also work remotely and don't drive all that much. I'm in a privileged position and could afford to uber (within the city anyway).

This is just a bad/non-solution to a very real problem that will do more harm than good.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by brewdad on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:59PM (#38859015)
Do you pay for that spot? Would you keep the car if it was costing you $150/mo to park it there? If not, then removing parking minimums accomplishes exactly what it is intended to do.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by autoexec on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @05:17PM (#38860623)
The cost of the spot is factored into the cost of the building so it still costs something, but even if it were a separate bill I'd still be stuck paying for it because I need a car and it has to go somewhere (plus I live in an area where it snows and don't want to get up at 5AM to move it every time that happens or scrape the ice off my windows/mirrors before I can leave).
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by jmye on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @03:33PM (#38859449)
Assuming bad faith is somewhat ironic and kind of a crummy way to interact online. Do you not think it's conceivable that someone could possibly think this is a bad idea honestly?
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by zdragnar on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:14PM (#38858436)
The externality is already accounted for there.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by nayuki on Sunday January 14, 2024 @07:31PM (#38995986)
> but now only the wealthy will be able to afford to park them, screwing over the population least able to arrange/afford alternatives

Think for a minute about what it means to be wealthy. Is it having more money? Yes, but... The true meaning of being wealthy is having more options available to you. If some people can park but some people can't park, then by definition it's the wealthy people who can park.

Another way to look at it is, what's the point of accumulating money? It's to buy you more options. Let's say hypothetically that the government gives every individual person a fixed amount of housing, food, a car, and free parking. But it is illegal to trade these commodities in any manner; you are only entitled to exactly your share and no more. In this fantasy world, accumulating money would be meaningless because it doesn't enable you to do any more than your fellow man.

So yes, the fact that once you start restricting driving, then only the wealthy can afford to drive and park - that's a feature, not a bug. It's by design.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by close04 on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @11:43AM (#38856180)
Raising the price would just extract more value for the owners from a very limited resource. But the resource stays just as limited.

If you have 200 cars and 50 parking spaces there's no price point at which the 200 cars can park simultaneously. The overflow ends up clogging the surrounding neighborhoods, on top of the outcome described by OP.

Edit. @pc86, both points you make are valid but neither addresses or fixes the problem being discussed. They are an interesting, albeit completely parallel discussion.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by medvezhenok on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @11:56AM (#38856367)
This is the approach Singapore (and in some ways, Hong Kong) takes; you can own a car, but you must purchase a 10-year use permit, which costs in some cases much more than a car itself (something like $80,000 over 10 years). So if you're buying a Toyota Corolla ($20K car), you'd still need a $80K operating permit to use it.

That's why 90%+ of the people in Singapore use public transportation or carpool. Granted, you would need the public infrastructure for that to be possible. But if you make cars unaffordable for the average person, suddenly there would be A LOT more pressure on local government to get public infrastructure done.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by breezeTrowel on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @01:45PM (#38857939)
Sure but public infrastructure doesn't magically appear overnight. It takes years, decades even, and costs a ton of money. I think the solutions may come laterally from developments in autonomous construction robots. They're being developed in Japan due to negative population growth reducing the available construction workforce.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by shiroiuma on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:02AM (#38864750)
Here in Tokyo, you're not allowed to buy a car unless you can prove to the police that you have a place to park it (and that it actually fits: they'll come measure).
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by pc86 on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @11:47AM (#38856248)
> Raising the price would just extract more value for the owners from a very limited resource.

Yes. If you own a limited resource it's your right to make money from that. I know we like to pretend people making money from things they own is somehow evil but it's how all of civilization has been built and is an objectively good thing.

> If you have 200 cars and 50 parking spaces there's no price point at which the 200 cars can park simultaneously.

No, but is a point where 50 can park simultaneously and nobody who wants to park there and can afford to is denied that ability.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by close04 on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @12:01PM (#38856444)
Both points you made are valid but neither fixes or even touches on the problem being discussed: there are more cars than parking spots and this causes problems. The economic theory is an interesting, albeit completely parallel discussion. Price is just about who gets to have one.

Effectively you'll still have 150 cars that cannot be parked next to the owners' residence, that get dumped on the street elsewhere probably in the next lower cost neighborhood, and with the additional issues OP mentioned.

Put it another way, if you want to solve the housing crisis and I tell you "owners can set whatever price they want for the house to extract maximum value and nobody who can afford that will be denied the house" am I wrong? But did I solve the problem?

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by autoexec on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @12:28PM (#38856805)
> No, but is a point where 50 can park simultaneously and nobody who wants to park there and can afford to is denied that ability.

That sucks for the people who are denied the ability to park there because they can't afford it though. Telling people that they need to walk miles to get to a doctor or a grocery store and that only the wealthy deserve to have access to 90% of the city doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @01:50PM (#38858021)
> only the wealthy deserve to have access to 90% of the city

There parking minimums drive up housing costs. They’re why that person has to drive longer to get to that place. Perhaps why they need to make a car payment at all.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by autoexec on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:00PM (#38858206)
Not true, at least not for most people anyway. People need cars to get to where they need to go. When the developer of an apartment complex has to provide parking for its residents everyone has a place to put the cars they need. When those developers don't have to provide parking space anymore, people will still need cars, but will now have no place to put them at night. This will drive up the price of apartment complexes that provide parking, pricing many people out, while doing nothing to eliminate the need for their cars.

You can't solve the problem of "I need a car" just by taking away the places people put them at night.

The problem we have is built into the design of our cities from the ground up and it impacts every aspect of how they are structured and used. Eliminating parking spaces while the absolute need for cars continues to exist doesn't solve the problem at all.

This is the kind of move that should be done selectively, and only after alternative options are created, if it's done at all.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by dragonwriter on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:22PM (#38858525)
> When those developers don't have to providing parking space anymore, people will still need cars but now have no place to put them at night.

If they have no place to put them, they won't have them, and if they don't have them, then either (1) they won't live there at all, or (2) they don't actually need them.

> This is the kind of move that should be done selectively

No, having parking requirements should be done selectively, if at all. If there is sufficient market demand, the requirements will be unnecessary to get developers to include them, if not, then the requirements are most often a harmful constraint that limits housing supply.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by autoexec on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @03:19PM (#38859273)
> If they have no place to put them, they won't have them

This is demonstrably false. People still need cars to get to where they need to go, like work, or their doctor's office, or the grocery store. There are no alternatives. Public transportation doesn't get them there. Ubering everywhere is more expensive than owning a car. Until alternatives exist, not having a car isn't an option.

If you've been to cities where there isn't enough street parking to meet demand you'd know that even when people have no place to park their cars they still keep cars. They just go to extremes to find/keep/make parking wherever and whenever they can and often have to spend long periods of time driving on streets/circling blocks to find a spot. They block traffic to wait for someone they think might be leaving soon, they walk great distances to get from where to park to where they need to be, they park in illegal or dangerous places.

There are many negative consequences to this behavior which impact everyone around them, but people can't help but do it because they're left with no alternatives. Examples of this abound. I've seen statistics like 30% of all traffic in urban areas are just people looking for places to park. (some studies have found that number to be as high as 75%!) or that the average amount of time drivers spend per year looking for place to park is 17 hours!

> No, having parking requirements should be done selectively, if at all.

That means the same thing.

> If there is sufficient market demand, the requirements will be unnecessary to get developers to include them

That's not how markets work. If it will make developers more money to not give people the amount of parking they need, then developers will not give people enough parking. All other negative externalities be damned. None of it means there will be fewer cars on the road.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @03:41PM (#38859571)
> If you've been to cities where there isn't enough street parking to meet demand you'd know that even when people have no place to park their cars they still keep cars

No? They park them outside the city centre. Or they rent them. You're speaking as if Austin is the first city in the world--or even America--to do this.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by autoexec on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @04:19PM (#38860086)
> No? They park them outside the city centre.

If you live in an apartment complex inside the city centre, parking outside of it won't help you. If you live in an apartment complex outside of it and there's not enough parking spots to leave your car while you sleep you still have the same problem.

> Or they rent them.

Most people can't afford to uber everywhere. Should the poors not be allowed to go to work or the doctors office?

Austin is only one example, but any city without enough parking to meet demand has these same well-documented problems. Please tell me which cities in America have ditched off-street parking while doing nothing else to reduce people's dependence on cars and had no problems as a result.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @04:26PM (#38860158)
> live in an apartment complex inside the city centre, parking outside of it won't help you

Of course it does. You use city transportation systems when in the centre. And you take an Uber or train to your parking lot when you need to drive a bunch.

> Should the poors not be allowed to go to work or the doctors office?

Versus not being able to afford housing?

That's the tradeoff. There is no free lunch. Increasing space dedicated to parking raises the cost of housing. It also reduces density, thereby reducing wealth and increasing transit times.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by jjav on Friday January 05, 2024 @11:25PM (#38888406)
> If they have no place to put them, they won't have them

That's not how it works. Have you ever lived in an area developed without any parking planning? I have, it's miserable.

People will still have the cars because they are necessary for every aspect of life. Making parking difficult does not change that, so they'll still have the car, now it just becomes a neighborhood warzone on where to park and everyone suffers.

The way you change this is not by removing parking, but by removing the need to have a car. Build excellent and affordable public transit first and then.. well there is no step two.

Most people don't really like to drive and don't like car expenses, so if you build excellent public transit a lot of people will give up their cars and the parking problem disappears as a side-effect.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:11PM (#38858398)
> This will drive up the price of apartment complexes that provide parking, pricing many people out, while doing nothing to eliminate the need for their cars

There is zero evidence for this. There is evidence for parking minimums raising housing prices.

I’m curious about the overlap between off-street parking minimum requirement advocates and anti-development NIMBYs who don’t believe in supply and demand.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by autoexec on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:14PM (#38858437)
> There is zero evidence for this.

When most people need something, and there is suddenly a much smaller supply of that thing, prices for the now scarce but still needed thing tend to increase. That's basically self-evident.

If you have evidence that shows otherwise please feel free to provide it. I suspect that if examples showing otherwise exist at all they won't be remotely representative of the situation these cities will face.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:25PM (#38858566)
> When most people need something, and there is suddenly a much smaller supply of that thing

Yes. We have rising, elastic house and stable, inelastic paid parking prices [1[2]]. Due to these regulations, we cannot substitute limited space away from off-street parking towards e.g. housing.

[1] http://shoup.bol.ucla.edu/PricingParkingByDemand.pdf

[2] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Funnel-plot-for-the-pric...

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by autoexec on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @03:57PM (#38859799)
The research you link to discusses pricing for parking spaces, but nowhere does it state that eliminating parking spaces doesn't increase the price of what little parking is left.

The idea that developers being responsible for providing adequate parking would mean that we can't have adequate space housing is a new argument, but not a compelling one. Clearly jacking up the prices for on-street parking means we'd have more money and more space for other things, but that doesn't solve the problem of there being too many cars on the road or eliminate the need for people to keep and drive cars.

While the one paper you linked to suggests that higher prices could help reduce the demand for cars and driving, it also explicitly states that price of vehicle ownership is only one of many variables that has an affect those demands. The availability of viable alternatives to car ownership/use is the one being ignored here.

If I will die unless I go to the hospital every week for 6 months for chemo treatment and the only way to get there is by driving, the amount they'll charge me for parking isn't really a factor until it becomes so high that I can't afford to get the treatment I need. The fact that I also can't get to work, the grocery store, the doctor's office, the pharmacy, my kid's school, or the homes of my friends family without a car means that I'm still going to need to own (and still need a place to park) my car even if I could afford to uber my cancer-ridden body to and from the hospital every single week. (this is purely an example, I'm not, to my knowledge, cancer-ridden)

You simply can't solve the problem of people needing to own and park cars by only reducing the number of available parking spaces. Reducing the number of parking spaces is something that should be done only once viable alternatives are established.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by shaldengeki on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @11:39PM (#38863066)
For whatever it's worth, the person you're replying to took the courtesy of pointing you to some research they're familiar with, and your "it's just one paper" point (or really, any of your points here) would be much more convincing if you responded in kind to that courtesy.

On topics like this you can argue from first principles endlessly and never get any closer to the truth. Better to show us some data, I think.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by dragonwriter on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:26PM (#38858586)
> When most people need something, and there is suddenly a much smaller supply of that thing, prices for the now scarce but still needed thing tend to increase.

No one is arguing against the idea that eliminating parking requirements increases (in short-run, first-order analysis) the market clearing price of parking spaces.

The contentious part is that the presence of the freedom to build housing without parking requirements (enabling, e.g., housing plus commercial spaces to be built in a space that would otherwise have the same housing plus parking) does nothing to reduce the demand for autos.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by autoexec on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @03:26PM (#38859364)
> The contentious part is that the presence of the freedom to build housing without parking requirements does nothing to reduce the demand for autos.

Why would it? Without alternatives to cars as a means to get people to where they need to go, people will still require cars. As long as people are required to own and drive cars not having enough available parking does nothing to help reduce the amount of cars being owned/driven. In fact, we know that it increase the number of cars on the road. That's how we end up with statistics like "30% of all traffic in urban areas come from people circling around looking for places to park".

You can't solve the problem of people needing cars by not addressing the reasons people need cars, and only reducing the number of parking spots for the cars people already need.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by dragonwriter on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @03:35PM (#38859474)
> Why would it?

Because it would both enable and incentivize development patterns where people need cars less.

> Without alternatives to cars as a means to get people to where they need to go, people will still require cars.

Dense mixed-use development puts more of the places people need to go in places that don't require cars to get to them. (It also mass transit to other places more viable.)

Your focussed on alternatives ti cars to get to a fixed set of locations, but a big point of dense mixed-use development is to provide alternative locations.

> You can't solve the problem of people needing cars by not addressing the reasons people need cars

The reason people need cars is that the places they need to be a far away because of development patterns; one of the key features of development patterns that causes this is...the space use created by parking requirements.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by autoexec on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @04:27PM (#38860169)
> Because it would both enable and incentivize development patterns where people need cars less.

As for enabling, nothing stops developers from doing that now. As for incentivizing them, if they can make more money not meeting most people's needs then that's what they'll do. This is also why so many cities have a huge amount of luxury housing available, but a massive lack of affordable housing. What makes developers the most money isn't always what's best for a city.

> Dense mixed-use development puts more of the places people need to go in places that don't require cars to get to them. (It also mass transit to other places more viable.) Your focused on alternatives ti cars to get to a fixed set of locations, but a big point of dense mixed-use development is to provide alternative locations.

I agree with this, but none of these cities are creating mixed-use development or building out their mass transit systems to link them. They're getting rid of parking spaces without any of those things in place.

> The reason people need cars is that the places they need to be a far away because of development patterns; one of the key features of development patterns that causes this is...the space use created by parking requirements.

A reason people need cars is because things are far away. Another reason is that there are no other means to get anywhere else. As long as those things are true, people still need cars. As long as people still need cars, they need places to put them.

The space use created by parking requirements would be a nice problem to solve, but it can't (and shouldn't) be addressed until the requirement of owning cars has been dealt with. When people no longer require cars, we can reduce the amount of space we've set aside for housing them.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by dragonwriter on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @05:27PM (#38860714)
> As for enabling, nothing stops developers from doing that now

Zoning regulations and parking requirements, which in many places exist for for both housing and commercial development, and vastly expabd the footprint of both, often do.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by autoexec on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @06:14PM (#38861100)
I'll concede that with the requirements in place developers have to provide the parking, and although that can mean a lot of things (from lots to underground/rooftop parking) it will increase costs.

Still, I think it's better to have those costs borne by developers and passed to property owners than have everyone else suffer the negative externalities caused by not having those necessary parking spaces available.

I think we'd agree that ideally, the parking spaces wouldn't be necessary because of good public transportation and city planning, and I think that once those things are in place those parking spaces could be reclaimed and repurposed, I just feel that for as long as the parking spots are needed it's better for the developer to provide for them in their plans.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by tuna74 on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:15PM (#38858444)
Yeah it sucks that you might have to pay for parking to do free activities like shopping or visiting medical services.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by autoexec on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @03:03PM (#38859073)
Leaving aside that neither groceries or medical services are free, the problem isn't that parking will now cost something. There won't be enough parking to go around and many people will be entirely priced out. People will be unable to park near the services they need and many will have no place to park/charge the cars they still require at the end of the day when they're at home.

That's not a good situation for anyone except for a very small number of people who will make more money than they have been, and small number of already wealthy people who will find lots of available parking they can easily afford now that they don't have to compete with the poors. Everyone else gets screwed and the problem of people needing cars doesn't change at all.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by jjav on Friday January 05, 2024 @11:16PM (#38888357)
> and can afford to

Right, so now only the most rich can go visit the area (shops, friends).

I know a lot of people have the opinion that only the rich should get to do things but I don't subscribe to that. At least with public street parking the misery is egalitarian, both the Yugo and the Ferrari can circle for hours looking for parking.

Although having enough parking for everyone would be even better.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by comte7092 on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @12:27PM (#38856786)
> Neighbors keying each others cars for taking up a space for too long.

I don’t know how this is the fault of too little parking. Nothing excuses this type of behavior.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by fzeroracer on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @12:32PM (#38856859)
What neighborhoods, exactly? Parking minimums have been the de facto law for cities, it's only in the past decade that trend has been starting to be reversed in the US.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @01:46PM (#38857950)
> if they drove themselves they’d never find a spot

Rideshare. Also, this screams market opportunity for paid parking. (Unless, of course, the problem isn’t as consistently dramatic.)

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by NoZebra120vClip on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:01PM (#38858224)
My parents live in a residential, SFH neighborhood that's basically designated overflow parking for revelers. Especially during Pride Week, motorists will fill every street parking spot, only to stroll into the drunken debauchery, and then stagger back and attempt to locate their vehicles.

They've also seen ZipCar type services where short-term rental vehicles are just abandoned. Once, I woke up to find a luxury Alfa Romeo sedan that had taken a joy-ride across the border and was abandoned in front of our place.

The main street there dead-ends, and so the highest traffic is from lost motorists vainly attempting to hook up to the freeway.

My parents jealously guard their prime parking spots, I mean insanely: they love to walk but if they need to tote cargo more than 1 yard out of the way, we never hear the end of their moaning, and I live hundreds of miles away. They participate in Neighborhood Watch and won't hesitate to get cars tagged, inspected and towed if someone tries to mess with their "public street parking" spots. (Recently renovated "garage" is full of junk.)

As a holder of a driver's license who hasn't owned a car since 1997, I also never hear the end of their moaning about rude cyclists, oblivious pedestrians, City-sponsored transit lanes, or repainted roads to encourage sharing with pedestrians and multi-modal transport.

Around here, most of the moaning and screaming is directed at light rail, without considering for a moment how it takes drunks and inept drivers off the road and completely out of their way.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by 0xfaded on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:03PM (#38858257)
Unfortunately people will fight tooth and nail to maintain their existing expectations and will see public transit as a threat to their cars.

You have to take away cars (parking) first so that they start demanding public transportation.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by chung8123 on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @03:29PM (#38859408)
The problem with public transport is it serves too many masters. Is it a system to allow the disabled to get around? Is it a system to enable everyone in town to get around? Is it a commuting system? Should it be subsidized or revenue neutral? Trying to solve all these problems makes the public transport systems not work for any of them well.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by FpUser on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:25PM (#38858576)
So you want to arm twist people to suit your agenda? It does not work this way. Personally I aways support and would vote for more public transport but not by forcing me to abandon my car. If that is the approach the only vote you'll get from me is fuck you. And I am a nicer guy who mostly uses EUC, bike and feet.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by LargeWu on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @03:23PM (#38859328)
Nobody is forcing you to abandon your car, you are just going start absorbing the true cost of the externalities (whether in tolls, taxes, inconvenience, etc). You can decide for yourself then whether using or owning a car is worth that.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by FpUser on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @03:50PM (#38859702)
Sure. Foot me a bill since I am affecting other person's lives. Just make sure it is correct. Also do not forget to compensate me as I am affected by other people.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by brewdad on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:37PM (#38858724)
Carrot vs stick is one of the most basis forms of influence. When the carrot doesn't work...
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by FpUser on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @03:45PM (#38859635)
It works both ways
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by tuna74 on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:09PM (#38858362)
The easy solution to this is to make (street) parking more expensive.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by chung8123 on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @03:30PM (#38859424)
Street parking should have a price attached to it in my opinion. It is a public resource that should be charged for use everywhere, including out in front of your suburban home. We push these prices on everyone when it should be the people using them that pay.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by sokoloff on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @07:35PM (#38861686)
Arguably property taxes, being the main way roads are funded in my city, pays for at least part of the access to the parking portion of those roads.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by busterarm on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @01:42PM (#38857892)
When it comes to property development, anything that you leave to optionality in code enforcement ends up being a thing that never happens ever.

For something to be available it has to be required by building codes.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @01:45PM (#38857926)
> anything that you leave to optionality in code enforcement ends up being a thing that never happens ever

No code requires marble countertops. Yet they get installed because buyers want them.

Cities like Austin have regulated themselves into a housing-cost crisis. It’s almost a miracle that rational economic policy is being given space by voters.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by busterarm on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @01:54PM (#38858083)
Marble countertops aren't competing for space that you could otherwise use to build more apartments to sell/rent.

Parking is.

Until parking spaces cost more than apartments do, developers are going to favor building apartments over parking one hundreds times out of one hundred.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by ryanmcgarvey on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:03PM (#38858259)
Isn't this (part of) the point?

We have an abundance of parking required by law and not enough housing units - removing the requirement should encourage more money to be invested into anything but parking no?

Seems like letting businesses decide whether or not it's worth opening a business with the available parking would cause one of two things to happen:

1. We wind up with the actual correct amount of parking required for a given set of businesses - instead of some arbitrary amount dictated by legislatures decades ago. 2. Everyone is tired of the lack of parking and votes to increase public transit funding.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by sokoloff on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @07:22PM (#38861592)
Multiple means of egress from bedrooms, fire-rated walls between units, accessibility requirements, auto-closing doors, fire suppression systems, CO and smoke detectors, are all things that we could remove the requirements for and also leave to the businesses and builders to decide whether or not the market demands those things.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by lotsoweiners on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @10:02PM (#38862500)
3. Businesses open up shop 5 miles away from downtown where they don’t have to deal with any of this.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by dkarl on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:03PM (#38858268)
> developers are going to favor building apartments over parking one hundreds times out of one hundred

Once we have apartments with and without parking on the market, we'll see how much more people are willing to pay to get parking, and future developers can build accordingly.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by busterarm on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:32PM (#38858653)
What part of "one hundred times out of a hundred" did you miss? You don't end up with the choice because nobody builds parking.

Queens NY has this problem pretty severely. Zoning requires parking past 7 stories in building height, so every building is 7 floors at maximum density with no parking. Residents often find themselves circling their neighborhoods for hours looking for parking. Living without a car and being fully-dependent on public transit absolutely sucks in most of the borough.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by boring-alterego on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:09PM (#38858364)
A better example would be where a "development" community's rain water goes. The areas booming right now in the south east usa will build the next development up 4 feet above the previous community and get approved through the county council permit process. Then the first big rain storm or hurricane comes by and the formerly dry community is now flooded out for the new community that got built, which also floods because drainage wasn't factored in.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by tuna74 on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:05PM (#38858286)
Then parking spaces will be priced according to what the market wants to pay.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by kgermino on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:02PM (#38858243)
Eh, Milwaukee has fairly lax parking requirements (including no minimums for most downtown developments) but most developments have more than legal required. Developers are pretty open about the reason (it's not uncommon for neighbors to push back on parking due to traffic concerns): they lost money on the parking, but without the spots they can't rent the apartments at all. Walmart doesn't build parking because the city makes them, they do it because their target market has cars and won't visit without a parking lot.

And even if this does drive up parking costs to match rents, is that such a bad thing? Why should we legally mandate that developers subsidize parking?

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by detourdog on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:05PM (#38858285)
I understand both sides of the issue. My problem is the lack of context given to this solution for housing.

I live in small (2,000ish households) New England town with some streets that predate automobiles. Nobody is really space constrained. The housing 3 miles a way is at least half the cost of my town.

The public transportation is poor and it took about 25 years to build less than 3 miles of bike path.

Should my town ditch off-street parking minimums in an attempt to increase housing supplies?

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by busterarm on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:29PM (#38858616)
> Nobody is really space constrained.

Clearly the answer is no then.

That doesn't make space-constrained Austin's answer an automatic yes either though. The city is very car-dependent. The starting point isn't "take away peoples' ability to have a car". It should be "make it more attractive not to have a car".

Changing parking minimums comes far down that road.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by detourdog on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:32PM (#38858663)
It's not clear to me. I really wish you could take the effort to explain your thinking. If there is no place to park but your neighbor's yard how it would work in a civilized society and help housing costs.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by chaostheory on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @01:58PM (#38858168)
Then you’ll end up with the building equivalent of the titanic which had a lot of luxurious amenities and decor, but skimped on the more boring stuff like structural integrity. You can see this in effect in parts of Asia. The closest example we have in the US is the Millennium Tower. There were regulations, (someone could correct me) but they decided to “bribe” their way out of it.

Ironically, I still share your opinion about over regulation, but we can’t ignore the other argument.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by jjav on Friday January 05, 2024 @11:00PM (#38888264)
> No code requires marble countertops. Yet they get installed because buyers want them.

"Follow the money" always works.

Builders want (reasonably enough) to increase profit. Marble countertops add a few thousand in cost but now you can sell these as luxury units for tens of thousands more! So it's profitable, so it happens.

Building parking space instead of additional units is not profitable, so it won't happen unless required.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by vel0city on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @01:46PM (#38857957)
Its expensive to build parking. Loads of shopping centers end up having to build seas of parking spaces due to these parking minimums given their square footage even though the actual car traffic wouldn't come close. I imagine a lot of those stores would have preferred paying for far less real estate and paving.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by dave78 on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @01:57PM (#38858139)
Perhaps the problem isn't the fact that parking requirements exist but rather that they require way too many parking spots. Most shopping center lots in my area are never close to full, even on the busiest Christmas shopping days.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by detourdog on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:11PM (#38858392)
I here this a lot but in the North East at least those extra spots can be used during the winter for snow management.

Snow management can be done in other ways but that is a cost analysis exercise.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by vel0city on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @03:11PM (#38859161)
Can you elaborate on the snow management aspects?
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by dave78 on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @03:34PM (#38859469)
Parking lots are a common place to store excess snow when it is plowed. Obviously from the parking lot itself, but also sometimes snow is hauled in dump trucks from other areas where there is no space to store the snow.

In snowy areas the piles can grow quite large and take up a sizable amount of parking lot space. These large piles then take considerably longer to melt away than snow in surrounding areas, sometimes lasting well into Spring.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by busterarm on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @01:56PM (#38858133)
Shopping Centers are an entire different zone than housing. You typically do not build them in the same places. They're built in less desirable places than housing which makes the parking spaces cheaper and an efficient use of the space.

Not all square footage is created equal!

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by BobaFloutist on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:39PM (#38858754)
My apartment charges me to maintain a parking spot in the garage, giving them more money for minimal extra maintenance. This way people that don't have cars don't have to subsidize my parking spot, but it's still super worth it for the landlord.

If the cost to provide (guaranteed, protected) parking spots ends up being higher than people are willing to pay for them, maybe they're not actually worth what we're currently paying for them.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by arcticbull on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @01:44PM (#38857924)
That's great. Should increase demand for transit.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by busterarm on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:00PM (#38858210)
Effective public transit isn't something you can bolt onto a city after the roads are all built. Cities like Austin that were designed for cars from the outset are hopeless lost causes.

Old world cities can have great public transit because they were dense long before cars existed and have hundreds of years worth of civil projects designed to get people from A to B.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by arcticbull on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:03PM (#38858251)
> ... have hundreds of years worth of civil projects designed to get people from A to B.

We better get started right away then, huh.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by busterarm on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:27PM (#38858599)
You don't start by building public transit. You start by bulldozing roads and housing and moving/rebuilding communities.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by arcticbull on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:33PM (#38858680)
Do you have a citation for that? Large portions of Paris for instance aren't exactly old-world high density development. Luckily they're putting in the GPE, which is 120 miles of metro service. [1] Once you have the metro, you can put in higher-density development around the stations, and over time, the neighborhood changes. That's just fine.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Paris_Express

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by busterarm on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:45PM (#38858836)
Most of Paris as we know it was built in the 1950s and 1960s. Especially in the 1970s French politicians took on ambitious public works projects in Paris.

Most of the housing and most of the population was obliterated in the late-1930s through the mid-1940s, as you might recall. Two-thirds of the city's population had fled before the German invasion started even.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by NoZebra120vClip on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @01:52PM (#38858037)
Except this sort of code has a very real impact on volume of business, in the case of retail outlets, restaurants, venues or anything that's open to the public.

Can you see the design conversations going, "let's provide for practically no parking spots, so we can get less foot traffic and nobody will want to come shop here!"

In areas that support public transit and promote multi-modal, the businesses which thrive there are ones which cater to folks who eschew private vehicles. And that's a distinctly different crowd! So I think it'll work out great.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by saiya-jin on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:01PM (#38858225)
Here in Switzerland I've seen the opposite - the amount of parking requested by the developer (true, this was for local bank growth and not condos) was slashed significantly by municipality, as in 'don't bring your cars to your work', effectively removing 1 underground level of parking and some more, right under the bank.

There are very few countries out there that would see such behavior flying, when facing a wealthy developer (it used to be the biggest company in this village/small town) who gives a lot of local work, for just parking spots that are anyway completely hidden under the building.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by Throw839 on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:06PM (#38858316)
Extra parking would bring in "poor" people who live in France, Italy or Germany but commute to work in Switzerland. Just another form of elitism.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by pavon on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:03PM (#38858254)
Without other rules or planning to compensate, it creates a tragedy of the commons where every builder wants to offload their parking needs onto the rest of the neighborhood in order to save money. I lived near a neighborhood that had older denser development, that originally served just that neighborhood, but later became a hip place for people to go, thus exceeding existing parking. It was very frustrating that residents could never find a place to park because all the parking was taken local businesses patrons, and patrons couldn't find parking because that one collage bar was having a busy night and taking all the parking for five blocks around.

It didn't help that the urbanism activists in our area seem to consider parking garages to be a tool of the devil and protested any plans to build one in the area. To me they are an ideal compromise/stop-gap solution. They allow you to build dense walkable neighborhoods today even when most people will be driving. And once public transit has improved to the point where less parking is needed, you just have a few buildings to tear down instead of entire areas to redevelop.

Edit: And to be clear I think the "best practices" that most of the country used for the past 50 years to set parking minimums were massively inflated, and created many problems. I'm absolutely in favor of revising them, but I firmly reject swinging around to the other extreme of "to solve the public transit chicken-egg problem, we must make car use intolerable".

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by lukas099 on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @03:09PM (#38859143)
> Without other rules or planning to compensate, it creates a tragedy of the commons where every builder wants to offload their parking needs onto the rest of the neighborhood in order to save money.

Good. Then more people will choose different forms of transportation or internalize their costs. If parking becomes scarce, providing parking will become more profitable and people will pay the actual (enormous) cost of temporary car storage downtown.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by sokoloff on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @07:16PM (#38861559)
I live on the edge of Cambridge, MA. I can leave my house and go east into the city or west into the suburbs. Almost all of my voluntary spend is done to the west because of the dramatically higher convenience.

Parking becoming difficult and/or expensive pushes patrons to places where that's not the case.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by hedora on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @09:20PM (#38862317)
Good. Hollowing out the urban core will prevent pollution from busses, trains and bike tires, and subsidize the oil industry.

/s

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by lukas099 on Thursday January 04, 2024 @01:41AM (#38863854)
Put another way, it will be harder for people in suburbs to reap the benefits of density while being subsidized by it.

And the 'spend' from people driving in from the suburbs to go shopping will easily be overshadowed by greater economic activity resulting from a denser urban core.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by jjav on Friday January 05, 2024 @10:45PM (#38888189)
> Good. Then more people will choose different forms of transportation or internalize their costs.

That's not really how it goes. This assumes that if you make it painful for people to do what you don't like (park), they'll stay and live the way you want.

But no, people will simply abandon the area due to inconvenience. The area I mentioned above (previous post) went from a nice affluent residential area to a dilapidated area where only the poor and university students (also poor) lived. Everyone who could afford to leave, left.

Humans will always look for a better solution for themselves unless you impose a complete dictatorship. It is not possible to advance a cause (whether it be less cars or more public transit or better EV support or better bike paths, etc) by simply making the status quo inconvenient. People will simply avoid it.

You advance a cause by making the new alternative actually more attractive, then the majority of people will happily adopt it.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by peyton on Friday January 05, 2024 @11:20PM (#38888385)
They’re basically what Soviet intelligence classified as “the shiteaters.” People with money and a good life who inexplicably want to eat shit.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by alumnumn on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:37PM (#38858722)
> It was very frustrating that residents could never find a place to park

This is the original tragedy of the commons though: a bunch of people assuming they can just park on the street. The frustration is the solution. Either build yourself private parking, pay for private parking, or ditch the car. Or enjoy the frustration.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by jjav on Friday January 05, 2024 @10:47PM (#38888200)
> The frustration is the solution. Either build yourself private parking, pay for private parking, or ditch the car.

The vast majority of people will choose "(D) None of the above". They'll move out, causing the neighborhood to decay.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:40PM (#38858766)
> It didn't help that the urbanism activists in our area seem to consider parking garages to be a tool of the devil and protested any plans to build one in the area.

So Alice wants to build a high-density housing tower without having to build a ten-story parking structure beneath it, and we prohibit Alice from doing that, even though Bob wants to build a ten-story parking structure right next to it, because we prohibit Bob from doing that.

I feel like these could both be solved in the same way.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by pavon on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:48PM (#38858875)
It is certainly a place to start! Although in this case I never heard of a developer wanting to build a parking structure on their own (and don't know if existing code would have prevented them). It was always the city wanting to build an adjacent parking structure as part of revitalization efforts to extend the success of that neighborhood further down the street.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:51PM (#38858911)
So part of this is the cart-horse inversion.

We have minimum parking requirements that produce an oversupply of parking, therefore parking is cheap, therefore building parking garages is unprofitable. If you don't mandate them, the cost of parking will increase until building parking garages is profitable, and then people will build parking garages (or have fewer cars, in places where that's practical).

This doesn't even increase costs. Right now someone is paying $3000/month for a $2500 apartment and a $500 parking space. Without the parking requirements you could get a $2500 apartment for $2500 and choose whether you want to pay the extra $500 for the parking space.

Not only that, this would make it cheaper to build more apartments, so then the $2500 apartment drops to $2250 from lower scarcity, which reduces the cost of apartment+parking space as well by not force-allocating a parking space to someone who can do without a car and leaving more for the people who can't.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by bombcar on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @07:12PM (#38861538)
The lack of developers building parking garages tells us that the actual value of the parking is not as high as we think it is in most areas - and in fact parking garages are often built more to protect the vehicles than to provide extra parking.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by thex10 on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @03:27PM (#38859368)
No one is prohibiting Alice from building the 10-story parking structure. The change is she's no longer required to build it.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @05:03PM (#38860506)
Alice doesn't want to build it because if she doesn't she can afford to build twice as many housing units on the same lot, which is worth more money even without parking spaces, and the building doesn't need such an expensive foundation if it doesn't have to support a multi-story parking structure in addition to the housing units.

Bob wants to build it on the next lot over once he sees these new buildings going up and is willing to bet that the new residents will generate demand for parking, and can choose how many stories to make it based on the local demand for parking, which is based on numerous hyper-local conditions that are best evaluated by the owner of that specific lot and not just based on how many housing units are in each building.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by jjav on Friday January 05, 2024 @10:51PM (#38888216)
> No one is prohibiting Alice from building the 10-story parking structure. The change is she's no longer required to build it.

Alice is a smart capitalist and will build two apartment buildings instead, maximizing profit from selling the units.

By the time the buildings are completed, the mortgages signed and the people start moving in and fighting for parking, Alice is long gone, moved on to the next project in some other city.

This is the problem parking minimums were intended to help reduce.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by Modified3019 on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @03:20PM (#38859285)
Yeah, the local college planners in our city wanted to “discourage” vehicle use, and deliberately had only a few parking lots put in, mostly reserved for faculty of course. What has actually happened is every residential street within 4-5 blocks absolutely choked with vehicles parking on the curbside during the semesters. It’s a shitshow.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by bombcar on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @07:13PM (#38861542)
The local residents need to retaliate with requiring permits for street parking. Fight fire with fire.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by jjav on Friday January 05, 2024 @10:55PM (#38888242)
> The local residents need to retaliate with requiring permits for street parking. Fight fire with fire.

This is what happens, and exactly what happened near here. All neighborhoods within a mile or so of the university require permits for street parking.

But here's the thing, fighting fire with fire does not lead to a nice society. Now it's a huge pain to visit any friends within that zone because they have to shuffle their cars (with resident permits) to the street so guests can park on their driveway to avoid being ticketed. When you fight fire with fire you also get burned. Lose-lose.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by jandrese on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:03PM (#38858258)
How about: If you build a building of this size you must contribute $X to the public transit system to expand service to your building, adding drivers and routes if necessary.

We have so many subsidies for cars baked into the system, but hardly anything for other forms of transit, and then we complain endlessly about how expensive transit is to run and have to cut service to make ends meet, which of course discourages people from taking transit.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by BobaFloutist on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:37PM (#38858728)
What if we had a way of making buildings of a given size, or, say, value, contribute cash to the local and state governments, that the governments could then distribute as needed to transit, emergency services, infrastructure, schools, etc? We could even make it an annual fee so that they have to contribute to ongoing costs, and maybe periodically we could reassess the value of the property.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by jandrese on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:43PM (#38858801)
Sounds like it would be wildly unpopular and politicians would mess with your figures to get votes, even when that would ruin the budget. Sometimes specifically to ruin the budget because what they really want is to reduce/remove those services.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by sokoloff on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @07:19PM (#38861571)
GP described the current property tax system, which seems to work pretty well in non-blighted towns and cities.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by brewdad on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:28PM (#38858612)
Impact fees on new developments are already a thing to pay for other infrastructure improvements like sewer, utilities, roads, and parks. No reason it couldn't be extended to transit as well.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @02:45PM (#38858825)
Property owners already pay property taxes to fund infrastructure. Larger developments pay more in taxes (and the residents who live there pay income taxes etc.)

"Impact fees" are just a way to discourage new development.

Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by deepakhj on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @08:52PM (#38862162)
That's a tax on new construction which will reduce it. Tax all homeowners equally.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by lotsoweiners on Wednesday January 03, 2024 @09:55PM (#38862474)
Isn’t that somewhat counterproductive if you are trying to attract developers to build in your cities urban core? They might decide to just build in the suburbs or another city that pencils out better.
Re:U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums by jjav on Friday January 05, 2024 @10:34PM (#38888135)
> Now: If you build a building of this size, you MAY build as many parking spaces as you think you need.

Remember who is doing the planning and building. It is a developer who only has a short-term interest in the site. They want to build something, extract the maximum profit per sqft they can, sell it off and move on. They won't be involved by the time everyone moves in and starts living in that area.

You could blame the people moving in that they should've thought of parking before buying, and that's true. But people can be too optimistic when they like a place and just hope it works out. It doesn't work out, then they spend a lot of time driving around hoping to park somewhere. Early in my adult life I lived in an area like that, it was a nightmare.

The developer who decided to build a 6 story (24 apartment) building with just 8 parking spots? Long gone, not their problem.