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Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by japhyr on Thursday December 14, 2023 @08:09PM (#38649812)
My favorite graph of all time is the one that demonstrate Voyager 1 had left the solar system. I was a high school math and science teacher at the time, and I spent the whole day sharing this graph with students. It was so much fun watching everyone's faces and seeing the moment they realized what it really meant.

https://phys.org/news/2012-10-voyager-left-solar.html

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by alain94040 on Thursday December 14, 2023 @08:31PM (#38649998)
Why isn't it linear?
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by anon_cow1111 on Friday December 15, 2023 @12:06AM (#38651184)
Wow yes, that was also my main question and it looks like the answer everyone is agreeing on is "interstellar wind pushing back against the solar wind"

BUT- The graph says 2-3 particles/sec hitting the detector, which in sub-atomic terms is like 2 drops of water in an ocean's worth of volume. How much meaningful particle interaction is happening when everything is so close to a true vaccuum? Is this another one of those weird quantum-field-theory things? (Asking as a layman not a physicist obviously)

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by thriftwy on Friday December 15, 2023 @04:54AM (#38652623)
It is certainly not vacuum. Vacuum is when a gas particle is more likely to hit a wall (or other solid object) than other gas particle. It is absolutely not so on the edge of solar system, where low density is compensated by the vastness of space.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by japhyr on Thursday December 14, 2023 @09:07PM (#38650303)
Assuming you're talking about the overall sharp drop-off and not the bounce-backs, this was my favorite way to explain it to students:

We live near the ocean, and we have a rocky shoreline. We have a couple coves nearby. One cove is about the a half-mile across, but the opening to the larger bay nearby is just a couple hundred feet. On most days, the cove is really calm and the bay has roughly two foot waves.

So, you can go out to the cove, pick up the biggest rock you can lift, and heave it into the water. You'll make a giant splash that amazes young kids, and then you can watch the ripples fan out over the bay. But you also see those ripples stop as soon as they reach the bay, where the larger waves absorb the smaller ripples from the rock. The rock represents the sun, the ripples represent solar wind, and the waves on the bay represents interstellar space.

I believe that's a reasonable way of explaining it; if I was wrong after all this time I'd love to know it.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by RheingoldRiver on Thursday December 14, 2023 @11:26PM (#38650977)
That makes sense as far as explaining another situation where you would see a similar pattern, but it doesn't really explain why. What's the equivalent of the land surrounding the cove here? The sun's gravity well? But that's a gradual drop-off, are we looking at the distance where the gravitational pull on particles is canceled out by some other force?
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by ikiris on Friday December 15, 2023 @12:20AM (#38651261)
Hydraulic Jump on interstellar scale.

Heliopause. The heliopause is the theoretical boundary where the Sun's solar wind is stopped by the interstellar medium; where the solar wind's strength is no longer great enough to push back the stellar winds of the surrounding stars. This is the boundary where the interstellar medium and solar wind pressures balance.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by ryanjshaw on Friday December 15, 2023 @03:30AM (#38652194)
But again, why is it a sudden cut-off and not a gradual one?
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by danbruc on Friday December 15, 2023 @04:16AM (#38652428)
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by sanderjd on Friday December 15, 2023 @01:09PM (#38656815)
Interesting! What is the interstellar medium? Is it entirely the combined stellar winds of all the other stars, or are there other components?

My initial intuition was to wonder why the vectors of all the other stellar winds wouldn't be expected to nearly cancel each other out, but then it seems like the ones that would be pushing in the same direction as the sun's would have been blocked on the other side of the sphere, so it does seem to make sense that the net direction would be to point inward. But then I realized that I have no idea if any of that reflects an accurate mental model of what's going on :)

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by ineptech on Friday December 15, 2023 @01:02AM (#38651452)
AIUI, the solar wind does attenuate gradually; the relatively sharp drop-off is the transition from the "I feel the solar wind more than the interstellar medium" region to the "I feel the ISM more than solar wind" region.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by IshKebab on Friday December 15, 2023 @06:01AM (#38652953)
This is a terrible explanation. It's about a completely different thing, it's fundamentally wrong, and it doesn't even make sense! Space is not shaped like a bay and Voyager is measuring a decrease in particles not an increase.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by zeven7 on Thursday December 14, 2023 @09:43PM (#38650559)
I didn’t understand it either but the pictures and graphs on this Wikipedia entry actually helped make a lot more sense of it to me, especially the analogy of the water faucet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliosphere
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by kqr on Friday December 15, 2023 @03:03AM (#38652056)
That was a good page. At first I thought "But what is out there, outside the solar system?" under the assumption that there was nothing there. And there is nothing there, but nothing in galactic terms: the entire galaxy is there! And apparently it behaves like a gas, despite its low density.

So although solar wind sounds hardcore, at that distance its pressure about matches that of the nothingness that makes up most of the galaxy. Interesting!

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by Aperocky on Thursday December 14, 2023 @09:00PM (#38650247)
It could be a 3D porous boundary.

A solar eruption may impose 10~ AU of continued heliosphere at this distance.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by monocasa on Thursday December 14, 2023 @08:34PM (#38650018)
There's a relatively hard boundary at the heliopause.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by manicennui on Thursday December 14, 2023 @09:11PM (#38650334)
This entire concept is wild to me as someone who is incredibly ignorant about space.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliosphere#Heliopause

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by idontwantthis on Thursday December 14, 2023 @08:37PM (#38650042)
But why are there hard boundaries before that bounced back?
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by colanderman on Thursday December 14, 2023 @09:58PM (#38650667)
Presumably the exact location of the heliopause fluctuates due to perturbations in the sun's emissions.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by jacquesm on Thursday December 14, 2023 @08:46PM (#38650115)
Gravity. The suns gravity field is in theory infinite but there is a pretty precise boundary where it stops to have an immediate effect on the things around it and orbits around the sun are no longer possible.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by pdonis on Thursday December 14, 2023 @08:58PM (#38650227)
> The suns gravity field is in theory infinite but there is a pretty precise boundary where it stops to have an immediate effect on the things around it and orbits around the sun are no longer a thing.

This is not correct. The particles are not in orbit about the Sun, they're coming from the Sun--they're the solar wind. The heliopause is where the solar wind particles are stopped by the pressure of the surrounding interstellar medium. When Voyager passed that point (the heliopause), the number of particles hitting it dropped drastically.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by emchammer on Thursday December 14, 2023 @09:52PM (#38650624)
Why don't particles from surrounding interstellar medium show up in the graph as matching the pressure of the solar wind?
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by dotnet00 on Thursday December 14, 2023 @09:58PM (#38650664)
Presumably simply because there isn't as much density. The interstellar medium particles must be less dense but more energetic, thus producing the pressure that causes the heliosphere to be restricted.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by pdonis on Thursday December 14, 2023 @11:10PM (#38650903)
As I understand it, the much smaller number of particles hitting Voyager now are the interstellar medium. The rate of particles hitting Voyager is not a measure of the pressure of the ambient plasma.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by fnordpiglet on Thursday December 14, 2023 @09:18PM (#38650387)
Correct:

The heliopause is the theoretical boundary where the Sun's solar wind is stopped by the interstellar medium; where the solar wind's strength is no longer great enough to push back the stellar winds of the surrounding stars. This is the boundary where the interstellar medium and solar wind pressures balance. The crossing of the heliopause should be signaled by a sharp drop in the temperature of solar wind-charged particles,[30] a change in the direction of the magnetic field, and an increase in the number of galactic cosmic rays.[34]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliosphere#Heliopause

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by Macha on Thursday December 14, 2023 @08:35PM (#38650027)
Best guess: You get particles orbiting the sun, until you pass a point where the sun's gravity is too weak to hold them, and from that point you basically only see things who's escape trajectory intersects with yours
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by pdonis on Thursday December 14, 2023 @08:54PM (#38650189)
> You get particles orbiting the sun

The particles hitting Voyager aren't orbiting the Sun; they're from the Sun, the solar wind. The heliopause is the point where they are stopped by the interstellar medium. That point is what Voyager passed as shown in the graph.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by lazide on Thursday December 14, 2023 @11:12PM (#38650910)
They are still, indeed, orbiting the sun. In the same way the earths atmosphere is orbiting the earth.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by cshimmin on Thursday December 14, 2023 @11:20PM (#38650945)
No, they are traveling at velocities far exceeding the gravitational escape velocity of the sun. There is no meaningful sense in which they are orbiting.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by lazide on Thursday December 14, 2023 @11:46PM (#38651075)
Except they aren’t, which is why they are there and there is a heliopause instead of them being in interstellar space and there not being a heliopause.

If they had greater than escape velocity, they’d be escaping and we’d not see the graph we see.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by grey-area on Friday December 15, 2023 @12:53AM (#38651407)
Orbit means going very fast around something in a circular motion. These particles are heading directly streaming out from the sun, not going round it.

As I understand it it’s where these particles reach equilibrium with the stellar medium. The sun is like a comet at a large enough scale, with a long tail of particles as it moves through the galaxy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliosphere

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by lazide on Friday December 15, 2023 @07:24AM (#38653450)
The particles don’t meaningfully interact, they aren’t dense enough.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by adwn on Friday December 15, 2023 @09:05AM (#38654257)
They interact via the electromagnetic force.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by lazide on Saturday December 16, 2023 @09:54PM (#38669937)
So that graph showing no interactions is lying?
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by pdonis on Monday December 18, 2023 @06:55PM (#38690034)
The graph is not a graph of interactions between solar wind particles and interstellar medium particles. It is a graph of solar wind particles detected by Voyager 1.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by pdonis on Friday December 15, 2023 @11:46AM (#38655901)
They are plenty dense enough to interact given that it's plasma.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by lazide on Saturday December 16, 2023 @09:54PM (#38669935)
You might want to re-read that graph. And conservation of momentum means the particles leaving the sun don’t stop rotating when they leave the sun - the sun is rotating.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by pdonis on Monday December 18, 2023 @06:56PM (#38690045)
> You might want to re-read that graph.

You might want to re-read the Wikipedia page. It explicitly says that Voyager 1 saw the density of plasma around it increase by a factor of 40 as it crossed the heliopause. (For Voyager 2, it was a factor of 20, as I have posted elsewhere in this discussion.) It also explicitly says that the solar wind is stopped at the heliopause due to the pressure of the interstellar medium, which, last I checked, means the interstellar medium is interacting with the solar wind.

> conservation of momentum means the particles leaving the sun don’t stop rotating when they leave the sun - the sun is rotating

Sure, with a period of about 27 days. Go do the math and compare the tangential velocity that equates to with the tangential velocity required to orbit the Sun just above the Sun's surface.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by pdonis on Friday December 15, 2023 @11:46AM (#38655896)
> If they had greater than escape velocity, they’d be escaping

Only if the space they were escaping into were vacuum. Which it isn't. What stops them is not the Sun's gravity but the plasma in the interstellar medium.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by lazide on Saturday December 16, 2023 @09:56PM (#38669944)
If the intersteller medium is not a vacuum, what is? Last I checked, it was literally billions of times lower density than the hardest vacuum we’ve been able to produce on earth.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by pdonis on Monday December 18, 2023 @05:08PM (#38689057)
> If the intersteller medium is not a vacuum, what is?

There is no threshold of low enough density at which there is suddenly "vacuum". If there are particles present, there are particles present, and they can have effects.

> Last I checked, it was literally billions of times lower density than the hardest vacuum we’ve been able to produce on earth.

[Edit--these numbers are off--see my post downthread]

And the solar wind is much, much less dense than that. Interstellar medium density is about a trillion particles per cubic meter. Solar wind density is about 5 thousand particles per cubic meter. So the interstellar medium is more than dense enough to stop the solar wind.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by lazide on Monday December 18, 2023 @05:20PM (#38689207)
Cite? Everything I see indicates solar wind density is 10-100 times interstellar medium density.

I suspect you got your numbers reversed.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by pdonis on Monday December 18, 2023 @06:52PM (#38690012)
> Cite?

You are correct that the numbers I cited were off, because I had neglected to check specifically for numbers at the heliopause. Here is a better set of numbers:

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2019NatAs...3.1024G/abstra...

The plasma density in the outer heliosphere is typically about 0.002 cm-3. The first electron density measured by the Voyager 2 plasma wave instrument in the interstellar medium, 0.039 cm-3 ± 15%, was on 30 January 2019 at a heliocentric radial distance of 119.7 au. The density jump, about a factor of 20, confirms that Voyager 2 crossed the heliopause.

In other words, the density of the interstellar medium just outside the heliopause, as detected by Voyager 2, was about 20 times larger than the density of the plasma just inside the heliopause.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by pdonis on Friday December 15, 2023 @11:45AM (#38655876)
The earth's atmosphere is not orbiting the Earth. It is in hydrostatic equilibrium in the earth's gravitational field. Big difference.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by lazide on Saturday December 16, 2023 @09:54PM (#38669933)
and yet, atmospheric particles that have a mean free path that doesn’t intersect with other atmospheric particles, or when they do the average velocity delta and direction reach escape velocity, escape and are lost.

You might want to rethink that. It’s a useful model in bulk in the lower atmosphere, but it’s far from true in the upper atmosphere.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by pdonis on Monday December 18, 2023 @05:14PM (#38689131)
> You might want to rethink that.

You might want to rethink your claim.

First, while the upper atmosphere is much less dense than the lower, and the fluid approximation becomes less and less useful as you gain altitude, that still doesn't mean that "a bunch of particles in free-fall orbits" becomes a useful model. The average thermal velocity of a molecule in the upper atmosphere is still well short of orbital velocity at that altitude. Some molecules acquire sufficient velocity to escape, sure, but that doesn't mean the others are in orbit.

Second, the Earth's atmosphere is not a good analogy for what is happening at the heliopause anyway.

[dead]
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by cwalv on Thursday December 14, 2023 @11:46PM (#38651076)
I enjoyed reading their guess. Since he started the comment with 'I guess', it seems harmless enough. You're comment, otoh, is pretty rude.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by taylorius on Friday December 15, 2023 @02:04AM (#38651755)
According to Wikipedia, the abrupt change occurs at the point when the solar wind's speed decreases into the subsonic range (speed of sound in the interstellar medium is approximately 100km/s and the sun emits the particles that makeup the solar wind at approximately 400km/s). This transition to a subsonic regime causes compression waves to form, and causes the rapid drop off.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by puzzledobserver on Friday December 15, 2023 @03:01AM (#38652044)
I didn't know that the speed of sound in the interstellar medium is 100 km/s. That seems surprisingly high, given that there's more atmospheric material here on the surface of Earth, and the speed of sound is only about 330 m/s.

How can sound travel so fast in the interstellar medium?

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by explaininjs on Friday December 15, 2023 @04:01AM (#38652367)
Basically, since there's so little atmospheric material, any particles that you do set in motion will travel very far in a straight line before they hit another, which is a lot faster than hitting a bunch of particles erratically.

The catch is that you can only transmit very low frequency sounds - ti can be thought of like the variations in travel time for any individual particle drown out any high frequency signal.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by ben_w on Friday December 15, 2023 @03:41AM (#38652259)
In an ideal gas, speed of sound depends on the temperature and molar mass, but not density as the density terms cancel out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas#Speed_of_sound

It's hot, so the speed of sound is high.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by mcv on Friday December 15, 2023 @09:01AM (#38654236)
Can you use it to transmit actual sound? Would it be possible to use this for short-range communication in space? Or is this only a very theoretical kind of sound?
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by ben_w on Friday December 15, 2023 @01:00PM (#38656725)
Given the supersonic flow, one directional communication only.

Given the impedance mismatch[0], even the parts of the solar system outside Kármán lines where the interplanetary medium can support pressure levels equivalent to normal speaking (including low Earth orbit), I'm told human ears can't respond to that pressure change properly.

Sensors can be built to pick it up, but that may not be in scope for your question as we can also do that for acoustic waves in the CMB.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impedance_matching#Acoustics

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by mcv on Friday December 15, 2023 @03:04PM (#38658159)
I wouldn't expect human ears to be able to pick it up, because human ears would have far more serious problems just being exposed to the vacuum of space. But if it's possible to make sensors that can detect this sound, and devices that can generate it, and communication between the two would be accurate and really this fast, well, that would certainly be interesting.

Not sure if it would actually be useful, because I'm sure radio waves would be much more practical, but sound in space is a fascinating idea.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by Aerbil313 on Friday December 15, 2023 @03:51AM (#38652308)
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by simonjgreen on Friday December 15, 2023 @03:01AM (#38652042)
That’s fascinating, and going to send me down a learning hole! I had never before considered speed of sound in space.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by Otek on Friday December 15, 2023 @06:30AM (#38653094)
My favourite analogy: Heliosphere is like water flowing from a faucet into a sink: the water represents the solar wind emanating from the Sun, and the point where it meets the sink's surface illustrates the heliosphere's boundary with the interstellar medium. Just as water changes direction and slows down upon hitting the sink, the solar wind decelerates and changes direction at the heliospheric boundary, where it interacts with the gases and particles of interstellar space.

Photo to illustrate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliosphere#/media/File:Helios...

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by zaik on Friday December 15, 2023 @11:43AM (#38655862)
Inverse quadratic would have been my guess.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by lttlrck on Thursday December 14, 2023 @08:47PM (#38650130)
I need an eink display on my office wall showing the current location/status. I always get a tremendous sense of wonder and wellbeing thinking about these probes/achievements, maybe it'd help keep me centered before the daily onslaught.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by hackernewds on Thursday December 14, 2023 @09:07PM (#38650301)
the current status is that we do not know where it has fared to, according to the title
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by fnordpiglet on Thursday December 14, 2023 @09:14PM (#38650359)
Unless aliens grabbed it or something hit it, I’m pretty sure we know precisely where it is. What we don’t know is what it’s experiencing there.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by Vecr on Thursday December 14, 2023 @09:57PM (#38650656)
Not exactly, the model for the various slowing/drag effects are not known along even its near future course.

Edit: disregard, I think it's probably still measurable, just not as well.

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by ant6n on Friday December 15, 2023 @08:09AM (#38653791)
Nono, it's Voyager _6_ that gets destroyed by the Klingons.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by soylentcola on Friday December 15, 2023 @11:12AM (#38655546)
I thought 6 was the one that became V'Ger.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by cafeinux on Saturday December 16, 2023 @07:22PM (#38669165)
It is, and afaik no Voyager probe has been destroyed by the Klingons.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by ant6n on Sunday December 17, 2023 @04:03AM (#38671436)
Oh true. It was pioneer 10 that will get destroyed by Klingons. It’s easy to get them mixed up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_10#Pioneer_10_in_popul...

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by hypertexthero on Saturday December 16, 2023 @09:33AM (#38664460)
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by hawski on Friday December 15, 2023 @11:30AM (#38655723)
I think you could get away with just printing a status page once every few months.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by DonHopkins on Saturday December 16, 2023 @12:05PM (#38665804)
Or moving a post-it note with a tiny little dot on it.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by dotancohen on Thursday December 14, 2023 @09:59PM (#38650674)
Maybe you're the right person to ask. How do we know that the sun-particle-sensor or its wiring harness or one of its connectors simply hadn't failed?
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by cshimmin on Thursday December 14, 2023 @11:23PM (#38650962)
A very valid question. In this case IIRC this drop-off in low-energy solar wind particles was correlated with observed changes in the magnetic field and also an increase in higher-energy cosmogenic particles all around the same time. These three phenomena (observed by different instruments) were theoretically predicted to occur at the heliopause transition. So it lends much more confidence to the interpretation of the data.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by ferw on Friday December 15, 2023 @12:08AM (#38651197)
I believe that the direction of the magnetic filed didn't change, contrary to expectations. The explanation was that the galaxy's magnetic field is aligned with the magnetic field of our sun.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130913162459/http://news.natio...

Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by superjan on Friday December 15, 2023 @06:00AM (#38652950)
And hopefully Voyager 2’s measurements will confirm this. I don’t know how long we need to wait though.
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by NhanH on Thursday December 14, 2023 @10:01PM (#38650685)
I am guessing the number comes from multiple systems of independent sensors. So the assumption is that they won’t all fail at the same period in the same way
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by Tommstein on Thursday December 14, 2023 @11:59PM (#38651151)
The Voyagers leaving the solar system is so popular that they've done it like 10 times!
Re:Voyager 1 stops communicating with Earth by wongarsu on Friday December 15, 2023 @02:58AM (#38652027)
And in another 300 years or so they will leave the solar system again when they reach the Oort cloud, and in another 30000 years or so they will finally leave the solar system for the last time when they leave the Oort cloud