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Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by Jensson on Monday November 20, 2023 @08:28AM (#38347672)
Normal people can't take being at the center of a large controversy, the amount of negativity and hate you have to face is massive. That is enough to make almost anyone backtrack just to make it stop.
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by ethbr1 on Monday November 20, 2023 @08:40AM (#38347851)
It's depressing how few people are able to not look at the internet and turn off their phone.

There's no obligation to read things about yourself.

If you did what you thought was right, stand by it and take the heat.

Disconnect. Go to work. Do the work. Read a book or watch some TV after work. Go to bed. Wait a few weeks. $&#@ the world.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by anonylizard on Monday November 20, 2023 @08:50AM (#38348024)
LOL, you speak as if he's some gamer who just got screamed at on Call of Duty.

He is now the 'effective CEO' of OpenAI. He still has to go to work tomorrow, faced with an incredibly angry staff who just got their equity vaporized, with majority in open rebellion and quitting to join Microsoft.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by qwebfdzsh on Monday November 20, 2023 @08:56AM (#38348110)
> got their equity vaporized

Did anyone have equity though? I thought they (at least some) had some profit sharing agreements which I assume would only be worth something if OpenAI was ever profitable?

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by filmgirlcw on Monday November 20, 2023 @09:25AM (#38348683)
There was a tender offer for employee shares valuing the company at $87b that was pulled because of this. Those would’ve been secondary share purchases by Thrive but gave employees a liquidity event. Now that’s off the table.
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by anonylizard on Monday November 20, 2023 @09:11AM (#38348413)
OpenAI was guaranteed to be profitable, extremely so, if they just continued down the path Sam layed out like a week ago.

Now its guaranteed to generate 0 profits, so all that 'profit share/pseudoequity' is worth nothing.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by qwebfdzsh on Monday November 20, 2023 @09:26AM (#38348707)
> OpenAI was guaranteed to be profitable, extremely so,

Was it though? I'd agree that it was almost guaranteed to have a very high valuation. However profitability is a slightly different matter.

Depending on their arrangements/licensing agreements/etc much of those potential profits could've just went to MS/Azure directly.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by edgyquant on Monday November 20, 2023 @09:18AM (#38348546)
> Now its guaranteed to generate 0 profit

Literal fan fiction

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by acjohnson55 on Monday November 20, 2023 @11:01AM (#38349787)
Developing, training, and running AI models is not cheap, and it's very much an open question of whether the money users are willing to pay covers the cost.
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by matwood on Monday November 20, 2023 @09:05AM (#38348290)
> who just got their equity vaporized

You've just pointed out the big issue with a non-profit. There is no equity to vaporize, so no one is kept in check with their fantastical whims. You and I can say 'safe AI' and mean completely different things, but profitable next quarter has a single meaning.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by PeterisP on Monday November 20, 2023 @09:22AM (#38348627)
All of the employees work for (and many have equity in ) for a for-profit organization which is owned partially by the non-profit who controls everything and Microsoft. The non-profit is effectively a shell to overview the actual operations and that's it.
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by ethbr1 on Monday November 20, 2023 @08:56AM (#38348119)
There was no outcome from this where substantial amounts of equity weren't vaporized.

It's difficult to see how that would have been a surprise.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by malfist on Monday November 20, 2023 @09:04AM (#38348263)
What equity?
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by ethbr1 on Monday November 20, 2023 @09:16AM (#38348496)
The "there was no equity, because it was a non-profit" argument is stressing the term.

At least Microsoft thought it bought something for $13B.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by JAlexoid on Monday November 20, 2023 @09:55AM (#38349138)
When a wealthy person gives a museum much money and get a seat on the board of trustees - does that also mean that they "bought the museum"?
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by ethbr1 on Monday November 20, 2023 @02:08PM (#38352838)
They didn't buy nothing. See things museums and institutions will do for wealthy donors, that they won't do for anyone else.
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by JAlexoid on Monday November 20, 2023 @04:01PM (#38354685)
I'm not saying that wealthy donors don't get anything. Wealthy donors don't own the museum, just because they provided funding to the museum.

Just as wealthy donors to medical research don't get to own the results of the research their money funded.

Just as Microsoft doesn't get to own a part of Linux, for donating to The Linux Foundation.

Etc...

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by ethbr1 on Monday November 20, 2023 @07:01PM (#38356832)
OpenAI is definitely on the "less" side of charity.
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by WrongAssumption on Monday November 20, 2023 @01:58PM (#38352689)
"OpenAI PPUs: How OpenAI's unique equity compensation works"

https://www.levels.fyi/blog/openai-compensation.html

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by hresvelgr on Monday November 20, 2023 @08:58AM (#38348145)
> It's depressing how few people are able to not look at the internet and turn off their phone.

> There's no obligation to read things about yourself.

That's assuming the worst thing that happens is people speak poorly of you after a debacle. It's also human to feel compelled to know what people think of us, as unhealthy as that might be in some cases. It gets worse when maladjusted terminally-online malignants make it a point to punish you for your mistakes by stalking you through email, phones, or in real life. It's not that simple.

> If you did what you thought was right, stand by it and take the heat.

Owning what you did is noble, but you certainly don't have to stand by it well after you know its wrong.

edit: typo

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by willcipriano on Monday November 20, 2023 @09:05AM (#38348281)
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by mohamez on Monday November 20, 2023 @09:18AM (#38348540)
>If you did what you thought was right, stand by it and take the heat.

What if it turned out to totally wrong? standing by it would just make thing even worse.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by codetrotter on Monday November 20, 2023 @09:47AM (#38349035)
> There's no obligation to read things about yourself.

If only it was that simple.

The internet mob will happily harass your friends and family too, for something they feel you did wrong.

And on top of that are people in the mob who feel compelled to take real world action.

It is actually dangerous, to be the focus point of the anger of any large group of people online.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by kredd on Monday November 20, 2023 @11:45AM (#38350304)
I’m a bit confused with these comments, as if he is some low level engineer. He is on the board, he obviously talks to other people in the upper levels. It’s not just online mob whatsoever, you literally will be facing the people who aren’t supporting your actions. Every day.

Some people change their minds, maybe they made a mistake, nobody knows. It’s like fog of war, and everyone just makes speculations without any evidence.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by dang on Monday November 20, 2023 @12:13PM (#38350766)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38347672.
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by selcuka on Monday November 20, 2023 @08:48AM (#38347964)
Normal people don't burn a multi billion dollar company to the ground with a spontaneous decision either. They plan for the backlash.
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by Jensson on Monday November 20, 2023 @08:52AM (#38348046)
> They plan for the backlash

You can't plan for something you have never experienced. Being hated by a large group of people is a very different feeling from getting hated by an individual, you don't know if you can handle it until it happens to you.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by anonylizard on Monday November 20, 2023 @08:57AM (#38348130)
You can plan for something you've never experienced. You read, or learn from other people's experiences.

Normal people know not to burn a $80 billion company to the ground in a weekend. Ilya was doing something unprecedented in corporate history, and astounding he wasn't prepared to face the world's fury over it.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by Jensson on Monday November 20, 2023 @09:13AM (#38348458)
> You can plan for something you've never experienced. You read, or learn from other people's experiences.

Text doesn't convey emotions, and our empathy doesn't work well for emotions we have never experienced. You can see a guy that got kicked in the balls got hurt, but that doesn't mean you are prepared to endure the pain of getting kicked in your balls or that you even understand how painful it is.

Also watching politicians it looks like you can just brush it off, because that is what they do. But that requires a lot of experience, not anyone can do it, it is like watching a boxing match and think you can easily stand after a hard punch in your stomach.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by selcuka on Monday November 20, 2023 @10:13AM (#38349332)
> You can see a guy that got kicked in the balls got hurt, but that doesn't mean you are prepared to endure the pain of getting kicked in your balls or that you even understand how painful it is.

Sure, but you do your best not to be kicked in the balls.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by SilasX on Monday November 20, 2023 @02:05PM (#38352792)
Yep. Or, if you're running an immense, well-funded organization that is gauging the consequences of a plan that involves being kicked in the balls, you take a tiny sliver of those funds and get some advisors to appraise you of what to expect when being kicked in the balls, not just wing it/"fake it till you make it". (As it turns out, faking not being in severe pain is tricky.)
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by gemstones on Monday November 20, 2023 @12:36PM (#38351221)
Ilya torched peoples' retirements by signaling that it would be very hard to cash out in OpenAI as it is now. You don't have to be emotional to understand the consequence of that action, just logical. You have to think beyond your own narrow perspective for a minute.
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by rrr_oh_man on Monday November 20, 2023 @01:05PM (#38351740)
Where did he do that? Genuine question.
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by gemstones on Monday November 20, 2023 @01:20PM (#38352015)
The board vote did it! They had a tender offer in the works that would have made employees millionaires. The board clearly signaled that they viewed the money-making aspects of the company as something to dial back, which in turn either severely lessens the value of that tender offer or prevents it from happening.

I mean, he didn't have a button on his desk that said, "torch the shares", but he ousted the CEO as a way to cut back on the things that might have meant profit. Did he think that everyone was going to continue to want to give them money after they signal a move away from profit motives? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to think that one through.

I think he was just preoccupied with AI safety, and didn't give a thought to the knock on effects for investors of any stripe. He's clearly smart enough to, he just didn't care enough to factor it into his plans.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by aleph_minus_one on Monday November 20, 2023 @01:26PM (#38352111)
I do believe OpenAI clearly signalled from the very beginning what the (complicated) company structure is about and what risks this means for any potential investor (or employee hoping to become rich).

If you project your personal hopes which are different from this into the hype, this is your personal problem.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by gemstones on Monday November 20, 2023 @01:36PM (#38352293)
Well, with the hollowing out of OpenAI, it seems that someone else will easily take the lead! They're not my personal hopes - this move destroyed OpenAI's best chance at retaining control over cutting edge AI as well. They destroyed their own hopes.
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by SoftTalker on Monday November 20, 2023 @01:17PM (#38351951)
Torched retirements? Who is dumb enough to have his retirement portfolio that weighted to one company?
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by samspenc on Monday November 20, 2023 @01:53PM (#38352603)
The OpenAI employees who are planning to resign en-masse for exactly this reason.
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by CamperBob2 on Monday November 20, 2023 @04:36PM (#38355192)
They'll squeak by.
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by endtime on Monday November 20, 2023 @12:48PM (#38351421)
> You read, or learn from other people's experiences...Ilya was doing something unprecedented in corporate history

So whose experiences was he supposed to read about?

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by CamperBob2 on Monday November 20, 2023 @04:37PM (#38355207)
Yevgeny Prigozhin's?
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by bbarnett on Monday November 20, 2023 @01:29PM (#38352169)
He hasn't ever posted to reddit?
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by ChainOfFools on Monday November 20, 2023 @12:30PM (#38351129)
Is it possible that someone in Ilya's position can be unaware of just how staggeringly enormous a phenomenon he is sitting on top of ( and thus have no idea how to evaluate the scale of the backlash that would result?)

I would say the answer is, demonstrably yes:

https://techcrunch.com/2010/09/29/google-excite/

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by bbarnett on Monday November 20, 2023 @01:29PM (#38352155)
This is fair, but understand, Google bought would probably not be Google we have.

To think it would grow just as fast, or in the ways it did? Acquires are seldom left alone to do magic.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by asdfasdfsadf22 on Monday November 20, 2023 @12:39PM (#38351270)
Have you ever had a bad day? The consequences for people in power is about 1 million times bigger and more public.

Sutskever didn't get on the board by cunning politicking and schmoozing like most businesspeople with that sort of position. He's an outstanding engineer without upper management skills. Every meet one of those?

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by geodel on Monday November 20, 2023 @04:23PM (#38355023)
Outstandingly clueless seems more appropriate.

I haven't people any reasonably intelligent person so unaware of real world that they can berate a colleague so publicly and officially and think "Hey! I am sorry man" will do the trick.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by razodactyl on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @06:43PM (#38372279)
Clueless is a word to use... I think Ilya got screwed over by corporate swindling and made a mistake that's all. As a smart idiot I can resonate with the guy - you don't make that mistake twice. I like to believe the push for prosperity is still a mutual goal and the board drama is an unfortunate setback to overcome.
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by throw555chip on Monday November 20, 2023 @01:26PM (#38352114)
There were plenty of hyped crypto coin companies supposedly worth billions too and we found out otherwise.
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by eli_gottlieb on Monday November 20, 2023 @04:21PM (#38354996)
Normal people don't have multi-billion dollar companies to burn because they back off in the face of haters long before they get to that stage.
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by mcphage on Monday November 20, 2023 @04:30PM (#38355109)
> Normal people don't burn a multi billion dollar company to the ground with a spontaneous decision either.

Has OpenAI been burnt to the ground?

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by Turing_Machine on Monday November 20, 2023 @06:31PM (#38356532)
Three CEOs in as many days, founders departing, and more than 600 employees out of 770 signing an open letter threatening to quit seems pretty burny.

And it's just Monday afternoon.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by mcphage on Monday November 20, 2023 @09:21PM (#38358144)
600 employees quitting would be burny. 600 employees signing a letter saying they’re going to quit isn’t quite there.

3 CEOs in 3 days, isn’t burny, either. There’s the guy they fired, the person they had take on the role so they have someone in the role, and then someone they hired to be CEO. I guess they could have gotten that down to 2 by jumping immediately to their intended replacement, but not having them ready to start immediately doesn’t seem odd.

And yeah, it’s just Monday afternoon. If in the next few days, a sizable chunk of those who threatened to quit do so, then that would be burny. But we ain’t there yet.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by anoy8888 on Monday November 20, 2023 @10:53AM (#38349712)
So is Adam D'Angelo the true villain who is still insisting on the bad decision? I am confused, to be honest .
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by TheOtherHobbes on Monday November 20, 2023 @12:57PM (#38351591)
Everyone is confused.

It's impressively operatic. I don't think I've ever seen anything like it.

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by x0x0 on Monday November 20, 2023 @04:38PM (#38355225)
The inability to clearly and publicly -- or even if not publicly, to the OpenAI employees! -- explain a rationale for this is simply astounding.
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by tarsinge on Monday November 20, 2023 @12:37PM (#38351232)
I think they underestimated the hate of an internet crowd post crypto and meme stocks, now completely blindsided by the investment angle especially in the current AI hype. Like why do people now care so much about Microsoft seriously? Or Altman? I can see why Ilya only focused on the real mission could miss how the crowd could perceive a threat to their future investment opportunities, or worse threatening the whole AI hype.
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by appplication on Monday November 20, 2023 @01:22PM (#38352033)
I think you’re right about all of this, but this was doomed from the start. Everybody wants to invest in OpenAI because they see the rocket and want to ride, but the company is fundamentally structured to disallow typical frothy investment mentality.
Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by theamk on Monday November 20, 2023 @04:20PM (#38354983)
I think the interest is because ChatGPT is so famous, even in non-tech circles.

"Terraform raised prices, losing customers"? whatever, I never heard about it.

"ChatGPT's creators have internal disagreement, losing talent"? OH NO what if ChatGPT dies, who is going to answer my questions?? panic panic hate hate...

Re:I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions by stcredzero on Monday November 20, 2023 @04:02PM (#38354704)
Normal people can't take being at the center of a large controversy, the amount of negativity and hate you have to face is massive. That is enough to make almost anyone backtrack just to make it stop.

This is the cheapest and most cost-effective way to run things as an authoritarian -- at least in the short term.

If one is not "made of sterner stuff" -- to the point where one is willing to endure scorn for the sake of the truth: - Then what are you doing in a startup, if working in one - One doesn't have enough integrity to be my friend