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Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by gerikson on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:21AM (#38217162)
Unfortunate use of Swenglish in the headline.

In Swedish, "friskola" means a school separate from the normal primary/secondary school funding system, run by the kommun/council. So it can refer to a school funded by a private company, foundation, religious group etc.

Primary and secondary education in Sweden is free for the pupil or their guardians, it is payed through the tax system.

The current system, in place since a few decades, is akin to a voucher system. I.e. the funding is ultimately via the taxpayer, but through different organizations.

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by hef19898 on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:24AM (#38217177)
So, it is basically a failure of non-public schools, and not a failure of "cost-free" schooling.

Which makes a lot more sense. Someone should change the headline, before the discussion turns south...

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by CaptainZapp on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:01AM (#38217437)
Submitter here

I didn't want to editorialize, so I used the original title.

I changed "free school" to "charter school" which may make contextually more sense.

I hope that's acceptable.

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by dontlaugh on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:13AM (#38217514)
"Charter school" doesn't mean the same thing in different English speaking countries.
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by mynameisvlad on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:23AM (#38217575)
The English Wikipedia page for “charter school” specifically talks about friskola as an example of one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school#Sweden

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by dontlaugh on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:13AM (#38219061)
Wikipedia is using the US meaning of the word for some reason.

I'm don't think translating "firskola" to UK English as "charter school" would be correct, just like no one uses the term "charter school" to refer to institutions in the UK.

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by mynameisvlad on Friday November 10, 2023 @02:39PM (#38223505)
Maybe because it’s the common definition of the world for majority of English speakers. The UK is not the end all be all of the English language. Something can be a common term everywhere else in the world.

If nobody ever uses the term in the UK, then why would its definition matter or be different?

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by dontlaugh on Friday November 10, 2023 @04:19PM (#38224683)
English is a second language for many Europeans and we tend to use the British variant.

It matters because the original title was changed to a term only popular in one country.

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by mynameisvlad on Saturday November 11, 2023 @03:30PM (#38234200)
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/charter-...

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/eng...

There is only one definition. If someone doesn’t know the term, they can look it up. Your original comment claimed that it means different things in different countries, but that just doesn’t seem to be the case. The term seems like the appropriate English translation, even if it doesn’t exist in the UK.

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by dontlaugh on Saturday November 11, 2023 @04:35PM (#38234783)
Or the original translation from the article in a UK newspaper could be kept, by just keeping the original title.
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by trealira on Friday November 10, 2023 @07:02AM (#38217847)
> The current system, in place since a few decades, is akin to a voucher system. I.e. the funding is ultimately via the taxpayer, but through different organizations.

As an American, this sounds like exactly like a charter school system is. Or do you mean that the word is used differently outside America in other anglophone countries? From looking up the term online, it seems like it's mainly an American term.

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by jjgreen on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:33AM (#38217233)
UK English has "public schools" which are private fee-paying, so Swenglish has the edge here
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by Blaiz0r on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:40AM (#38217274)
UK also has "free schools" which are similar to state schools but unaffiliated with education trusts, normally setup by parents, locals, the community.
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by RugnirViking on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:36AM (#38217254)
uk public schools are public in the sense if you have the money for tuition you can go, wheras "private" schools are only open to invited families, no matter how wealthy they are
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by jjgreen on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:40AM (#38217275)
no
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by arethuza on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:48AM (#38217331)
UK "public schools" are pretty much a subset of private schools:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_school_(United_Kingdom)

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by jjgreen on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:52AM (#38217360)
In the UK, public & private are pretty much synonyms in the schooling context, traditionally the public schools were the "grand institutions", Eton, Harrow etc, but you'd struggle to find anyone who would make that distinction in the present day. If you did, they probably went to one of them.
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by arethuza on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:57AM (#38217406)
I must admit that I'm in Scotland and my son went to a couple of private schools (though they seem to call themselves "independent" schools) - never heard anyone referring to a public school other that in UK media discussing Eton etc.
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by jjgreen on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:02AM (#38217452)
I can well believe that the madness of "public school" being a private school is a peculiarly English phenomena.
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by somewhereoutth on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:58AM (#38217417)
For clarity:

Public schools - a handful of top level very expensive private schools, usually have existed for centuries, the children of the highest levels of society tend to go there, a great foundation for a career in public life. Examples include Eton, Harrow, Winchester, Marlborough.

Private schools - the rest of the private schools, less expensive, but less advantageous.

State schools - free, provided by the state for children in a local catchment area, this is where the rest of us go. Most are run by the local government, but there has been some experiments with 'foundation schools' which are tax payer funded but privately run.

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by lambda_garden on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:23AM (#38217577)
A good breakdown.

There are also a handful of true grammar schools left. These are free to attend, but are selective based on ability. There is debate about the extent to which raw ability is really being tested, and not preparedness for the test.

There are also private schools that call themselves grammar schools. These were once free and selective, but converted to fee-paying at some point. They like the prestige of being called a "grammar" but don't be fooled!

The lack of true grammar schools has been a big hit to social mobility in the UK. Now, getting into a grammar requires not just passing a test, but also having parents rich enough to buy a house in the catchment area. Public school alumni dominate top industries and government.

The UK "free school" approach has been a mixed bag. On the one hand, various academy chains have managed to turn around failing schools. On the other, some parents are left with no choice but to send their child to a religious school due to catchment areas and waiting lists.

As a tax payer, I don't want my contributions going towards religious institutions.

The loss of "special schools" for students with severe special needs has not helped anyone (imo).

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by gadders on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:29AM (#38217616)
A lot of religious non-selective schools tend to get better results than non-selective secular schools.

You see a few parents suddenly get religion as their child turns 9 or 10 and they realise they are unlikely to get into a grammar school.

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by jjgreen on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:35AM (#38217657)
... or decide a buy a second (or third) house conveniently located in the good school's catchment area ...
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by gadders on Friday November 10, 2023 @07:42AM (#38218138)
And funnily enough a lot of the people that do that "don't believe in private schools".
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by gadders on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:23AM (#38217573)
State Schools are also divided (in some parts of the country, such as Kent) into selective and non-selective at the age of 11.

If you pass a specific test (the 11+) you can go to a selective grammar school.

There also used to be government funded scholarships to private schools for the very brightest underprivileged children but that was stopped by Labour, the "party of the Working Class".

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by sampo on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:17AM (#38217540)
How do you get your child into one of those public shcool? Do you need money, or connections, or does the child need be talented? (The Wikipedia article didn't tell.)
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by jjgreen on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:30AM (#38217631)
In general, lots of money. Most do scholarships, so if your kid is really bright you might get one of those (usually reduced rather than no fees), they do this to bump up their examination results. Connections seem less important now than it used to be, but many will give preference to those whose parents or siblings attended.
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by gadders on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:25AM (#38217593)
Officially money, an interview and an entrance exam.

That's not to say that all things being equal you wouldn't stand slightly more chance if you were a member of the aristocracy.

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by lambda_garden on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:24AM (#38217585)
Money. If you can pay, exceptions will be made for everything else.
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by somewhereoutth on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:20AM (#38219148)
It helps if you can trace your ancestors back to the Normal invasion (the winning side, obviously). I'm only half joking.
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by ReptileMan on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:08AM (#38217485)
They are called public because they were opened to the public historically. The other institutions you needed to be clergy/royalty/peer of the realm or something like that.
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by dontlaugh on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:24AM (#38217583)
Historically, public as a contrast to home schooling with private tutors.

Contemporary usage is ridiculous, though.

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by littlestymaar on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:29AM (#38217207)
> The current system, in place since a few decades, is akin to a voucher system. I.e. the funding is ultimately via the taxpayer, but through different organizations.

Is it the system advocated by Milton Friedman or is it different?

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by stringsandchars on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:44AM (#38217300)
> Is it the system advocated by Milton Friedman or is it different?

I think Milton Friedman's idea, was that parents would actually receive education 'vouchers' and be free to use them in whichever education context they chose for their children.

This is slightly different, as the private/public system is wholly handled by the State system: parents simply choose between alternative schools, and the state channels taxpayer's money to whichever school the child attends.

Unfortunately, in many cases this has simply led to corporations or individuals who employ fewer or less qualified teachers, who in turn hand out 'optimistic' grades to the kids (attracting more parents), and extracting enormous profits from the State system.

At the same time, the normal State schools are being starved of resources; standards are falling, leading to more parents putting their kids into the private schools, leading to an inevitable downward spiral.

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by kristopolous on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:49AM (#38217333)
This is basically the neoliberal story. I can't fathom for the life of me how people committed to historical concrete analysis can continue to advocate for these schemes. They always end up in exploitation.

People's commitment to ideologies seem to be stronger than any material evidence.

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by weberer on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:39AM (#38217676)
If you lived in Baltimore, would you send your kid to the local public school? Would you hand-wave the corruption and incompetence away because "public good, private bad"?

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/city-student...

>People's commitment to ideologies seem to be stronger than any material evidence

Agreed

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by coryrc on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:07AM (#38217483)
Then you don't live in or near school districts failing to educate their students for decades: Detroit, Baltimore, even parts of Seattle fail to graduate young people capable of reading and writing near grade level, let alone understand even algebra. Year-after-year they fail a new class.
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by soco on Friday November 10, 2023 @07:19AM (#38217972)
And the solution would be to go to a tuition school, where the quality could be the same but grades higher because customer is king? No, it's not a solution, because there's no implicit causal relationship between tuition and quality - the Swedes just described their situation in the title. The real solution is to fix the failing school, whatever system it was.
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by coryrc on Friday November 10, 2023 @11:26AM (#38220797)
Ah, thank you, I don't think anyone's tried to fix the failing schools before, so if they just get started on that this whole voucher thing is unnecessary.
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by kristopolous on Friday November 10, 2023 @04:14PM (#38224629)
I think a more honest analysis would not only look at other educational systems in other countries but use a unified metric, say, euclidean geometry or algebra comprehension, something that you can roll back the clock 60 years on and still get comparable data.

There's a multi armed bandit problem here of course but the law of large numbers should allow you to isolate what effect marketization has.

I'd be shocked if it was positive. Human motivation is sullied and distracted by profit so the actual goals become incidental. If the alignment is close, like in commodities, it's all good. If it's poorly related, such as in education, it seems to be a problem.

Privatization works poorly as a blunt magical instrument wielded on all problems

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by littlestymaar on Saturday November 11, 2023 @10:32AM (#38231184)
Sweden school system didn't particularly need to be fixed, especially if you compare it to peer European states.

The voucher stuff was introduced for ideological reasons, and failed like things rooted in ideology invariably do, no matter if the inspiration is Marx or Adam Smith.

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by red-iron-pine on Friday November 10, 2023 @10:04AM (#38219712)
these are in high-crime areas with very specific demographics. make of that what you will.
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by dontlaugh on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:25AM (#38217594)
The commitment is pushed by those that materially benefit, so it shouldn't be a surprise.
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by falcor84 on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:01AM (#38217436)
I'd argue in favor of decoupling schools from summative assessment in general. If anything, I'd just have each course in each institution have its own well-specified entrance requirements/assessment, and have learners decide what institution/course of study would best prepare them.
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by rob74 on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:53AM (#38217374)
Makes sense... parents (and kids) will tend to choose the schools where pupils have an easier time, good grades etc., not necessarily the schools which will give them a better education. So this is probably a case of misaligned incentives and another rebuke of the idea that "free competition benefits everyone".
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by coryrc on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:09AM (#38217494)
Why do you think that? My experience is the exact opposite: parents choose the toughest, best schools, to great cost to them.
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by littlestymaar on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:57AM (#38217407)
> I think Milton Friedman's idea, was that parents would actually receive education 'vouchers' and be free to use them in whichever education context they chose for their children.

> This is slightly different, as the private/public system is wholly handled by the State system: parents simply choose between alternative schools, and the state channels taxpayer's money to whichever school the child attends.

I don't see the difference between those two situations. In your first sentence you talk about a “voucher”, but if it's a voucher, then there needs to be someone who emits the vouchers, and collect them in exchange for money, giving money back. And the “someone” is necessarily the state since it's financing the schools out of its own pocket.

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by BurningFrog on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:57AM (#38217404)
There are no actual vouchers, but the government pays whichever school the family chooses, so the end result is very similar.
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by sampo on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:48AM (#38217330)
Wikipedia translates the Swedish friskola as charter school in English.

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friskola

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school#Sweden

"A charter school is a school that receives government funding but operates independently of the established state school system in which it is located. It is independent in the sense that it operates according to the basic principle of autonomy for accountability, that it is freed from the rules but accountable for results."

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by Tijdreiziger on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:02AM (#38217449)
This is basically how the schooling system in the Netherlands works. Any group of people is free to found a school based on their own beliefs (religious, pedagogical, or otherwise), and such schools are quite common.

The historical reason for this freedom is that Christians wanted to found religious schools, but it has since widely been used by a variety of religious and non-religious groups.

Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by mullsork on Friday November 10, 2023 @08:04AM (#38218322)
Are those schools privately or publicly funded?
Re:Sweden's schools minister declares free school 'system fa... by Tijdreiziger on Friday November 10, 2023 @08:18AM (#38218423)
They’re funded by the state.